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2 40 764 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/9fff4bdecbcbbf9bd15c991bd6d584e6.JPG 2b8bbd76dcf5faf5a23091f07e8bb551 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/d162a3421d690ba86c2b9fff1c2dab94.mp3 cd8df9e3e3be98d0c86bd793a82f4bcc https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/acc99933d9f23e7cc21f902862d306ff.pdf 78cb3fc1619cd5371c16e0d6651369e0 PDF Text Text Narrator: Seth Cohen Interviewers: Corbey Ellison ’24 and Christian Giresi ‘24 Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Dates of Interview: November 17, 2022 Corbey [00:00:00] Mostly over that. All right. So, it is November 17th, and we are sitting down with Seth Cohen of the Capital District Area Labor Federation. You want to go ahead and introduce yourself? Seth [00:00:14] Yes. Hi. So I am Seth Cohen, retired teacher from the Troy City Schools and currently the president of the Capital District Area Labor Federation. Corbey [00:00:26] So, I guess, you know, just getting started, getting to know you a bit more. First off, like where did you grow up and what was your childhood like? Seth [00:00:35] Sure. Yeah, I, I grew up just outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, about ten miles outside the city. I have five brothers and sisters. So big family. Did a lot of different kinds of things, you know, played sports. But were also into being near Philadelphia. A lot of history. I graduated from high school in 1976, so we were always considered the bicentennial class. And then my parents had grown up in the Boston area, so a lot of American Revolution, you know, that type of history because it was in and around where we grew up. So we were always very interested in that. Went away to college, to Northeastern University. Studied sciences in Boston, then left there, didn't finish there, transferred out to Geneseo State College in New York. And so I have a bachelor's in geology and so I was interested in geology, environmental sciences. Kind of a roundabout way, I did some work in the environmental field on Cape Cod and New England area and then eventually made my way back to this area. Christian [00:01:46] Excellent. So you said your early careers involved teaching. So was that one of your first jobs that you had? Seth [00:01:52] Yeah, I was kind of teaching and counseling in the environmental field, and so I spent a number of years running an environmental ed center on Cape Cod. We would have kids from the Boston area, Providence, Rhode Island, area. They'd come down and spend a week, and so we, we did a lot of things, usually middle school kids, environmental sciences. And when I got to the, came back to the Albany area, I was doing that as well as doing some counseling and was doing working with students, sort of underprivileged students and realized that I liked teaching and thought, okay, if I'm going to stay in teaching, I should get into the public schools. So I went and got my master's degree at SUNY Albany, master's in science teaching, and then did you know, did a variety of kinds of things and then ended up at in the Troy city schools and spent thirtythree years at the Troy city schools teaching science. Corbey [00:02:51] And did, you know, did your work as a teacher kind of inform your current, like, involvement and interest and views on labor issues? Like were you involved in teachers unions, stuff like that? Seth [00:03:03] Yeah, definitely. So I had in my family, a family history of people being involved with unions. Growing up, my mom was a teacher and she was a little bit involved with her union. But more importantly, my grandparents, my grandparents were from the Boston area, had emigrated to this country at the turn of the century and they were very much involved with unions. So kind of being in unions, my grandparents, my uncles, it was �all kind of always a conversation. And then when, yeah, when I got into the public schools a couple of years in our union was going through contract negotiations and so it got involved in that way, just kind of learning a little bit more about it, hearing about what was going on and very kind of early on, probably three or four years into my career, started getting more involved with the union kind of in our building. And then over the progression of a number of years, probably held almost every position in our union as I worked my way up through. Corbey [00:04:08] What made you first want to get involved in, like, union leadership? Seth [00:04:13] I think one of the things as far as, like, kind of going back to the unions, I always thought that people should have a voice as to where they work to be able to say, you know, this is working for me and not working for me. And really, more importantly, let's say in a teacher union, you know what's working for the school. You know, we want to make sure that things are going well for the teachers, but it also helps with the students. And then I think part of it, as far as the question about union leadership, sort of, I think sometimes is just my natural personality of, of wanting to kind of I see things and it's like, well, you know, I think that could be done a little bit differently. I was really never afraid to put my voice out there and say, “Hey, I think we should try this.” And then a lot of times people would say, “All right, well, if you think. That should work. You take it on,” you know. And so you start with some small job. I did, you know, in the unions in in our district, we had eight different buildings and every building had a couple of building reps. And so, you know, the building rep would do some different things and then you'd get on another committee and so on so often. And then, like I said, I spent a couple of years as a vice president under a couple of different presidents, two women that really did well and kind of taught me a variety of things. And then in early 2000, 2001, I guess, I was elected president of our union. Um, so that was, that was really good. It taught me a lot of things. Christian [00:05:41] Oh, were there any, like, really influential, like, events or sequence of things that happened that made you feel more passionate about labor organizing than teaching per se? Or did you just somehow develop into that path? Seth [00:05:56] Um, I think I would say one of the things was the idea of giving teachers a voice in what they taught in their classrooms. So early on, it was often about, you know, do we have a good contract, you know, the benefits, you know, sort of the bread and butter issues that that all employees and all unions look to. But very early on, as a, as a early and a new president, the New York State United Teachers has a really good program for taking local presidents and giving them some training. And so I know I think maybe I was in local president for a year or so. This is probably twenty years ago. And I went to a training facility and there were talks, conversations about the Regents Exams, and there were conversations about the Regents Exams. And then in the course of that, I really got to understand that the teachers union could make some impacts in how the Regents Exams were written that would benefit students and benefit the teachers. And, and that was sort of new to me. And that idea that a labor union, instead of just working for the teachers and their benefits, could actually impact the students and the educational outcome. And so from then on, I really started to spend more time not, not excluding my teaching, but more time developing my union skills and then doing a lot more things with the statewide teacher's union, which then led me to, I started doing some work with the American Federation of Teachers, you know, on the national level. So I think that idea of empowerment for a teacher leader, not just for the contract, you know, sort of what people normally think of, you know, union benefits, health care and that kind of stuff, but how it can actually help students in the school district. �Corbey [00:07:54] During your time in the union did you have any, like, you know, large, large gains, large acomplishments that, you know, you're particularly proud of that you want to talk about? Seth [00:08:02] Yeah, I want to say one of the things, one of the aspects I always tried to push with in my union and in talking to the people under me was to think about our union, especially in a public school, the idea of bringing community in. And so probably I think we had, I think was around 2008 and we were going back to that idea. We had contract negotiations. But one of the aspects that we really pushed to try to get at settled was to bring the community in. And so we reached out to the other public sector unions, you know, people working in the city. But then we also reached out to the other labor organizations, you know, the building trades people like the Teamsters, CWA, you know, painters union and things like that. And because we were, we were having issues 2008 was, the economy was not that great. And so we were trying to push, but we were trying to make it the idea that it wasn't just teachers, it was, again, going back to that all encompassing kind of thing, so we were trying to get the community behind us. And so we actually, I was, you know, instrumental in putting together a couple of different rallies. And we ended up at our school. We had around somewhere between two hundred fifty and three hundred people from, I think, I don't remember exactly, but about fifteen different unions, not just teacher unions, spend time at our district right before board meetings and then we'd go in and talk to the board and we'd say, look, we're not just talking about the teachers, we're talking about the community, because the students that we teach, their parents, you know, work in these other areas and they understand what a good community would be like and you need a good school for that. So yeah, that was an idea and I've really tried to push that ever since, that whole idea of community building when you're working on unions. Corbey [00:10:06] Now, when you started to get involved in the more, like, national unions, how did that work and that involvement compare to, like, your more local district teacher union? Seth [00:10:18] It was very interesting because, so that that came about by working with the statewide teachers union, being on some committees with them and then being asked from the statewide teachers folks to say, “Would you like to represent New York at the American Federation of Teachers on the national level?: There's a, they have a committee it's called the Program and Policy Council, K to 12, kindergarten through 12th grade. And there are about about 60 people on it from all across the country. And there is usually somewhere between five and seven from New York State. And so where I worked in, in Troy, small city school, about five thousand students, not completely urban, you know, not like a Big Albany or a Buffalo or Syracuse, but certainly not a suburban, was kind of a mixture. So I think I had a unique role in that idea of, of kind of bridge the gap between urban and suburban area. But the thing that I was very interesting in when I went to a couple of the first meetings, really getting to know people from other parts of the country who were in unions, but their statewide unions were not nearly as strong as what's in New York State. And so, you know, here in New York State, it's the most dense union state in the country, something, I don't know the exact number, it's like 25, 30% of people are in a union. I think in the public sector, maybe private sector, it's less of that like 15 or so. Whereas across the country it's less than 10%. And so when you, when I go to those meetings, it was very interesting to hear people talking about that sort of the, the fights or the battles that they would have. And, you know, let's say the people in Philadelphia or the people in Orlando, you know, Orlando, Florida, they would talk about what's going on in �their city. Whereas here in New York, we talk about what's going on in the entire state. So it was much more that, you know, I used to talk to them and they were like, well, you know, we're only doing things here in Orlando or maybe in Tampa, but the rest of Florida is is not even on board with them in some places, the other parts of the state aren't even unionized. So it was very interesting to kind of, you almost get in a little bubble thinking, oh, this is the way it should be. And then you go to these other places, you find out, wow, it's, it's really not like that at all. Christian [00:12:41] So following that, you felt like New York had a much more structured and, like, more complete powerful union organization all together... Seth [00:12:51] Very much so. Christian [00:12:52] Than compared to most other states. Seth [00:12:54] Yeah, absolutely. Because I would say, you know, on the, on this committee, not, I would say they were probably only even, I'd have to make a guess about twenty states represented. You know, other states have pockets of unionization, but nowhere near what let's say New York, Pennsylvania, Virginia, you know, some of the East Coast. And then you go to the West Coast. You know, California is very unionized, but, and there's pockets all around. Let’s say you take Texas. You just look at, you know, Houston, Austin, maybe one or two other big cities. They're unionized. The rest of the state, they don't even have unions. Yeah. So it's a very different kind of way of looking at things, even though, you know, you listen to the papers or watch the news, you know, they'll say, oh, all of education across the country is such and such and it's not even close. It really makes you, really makes you think that what we have in New York is, is pretty unique. Yeah. Corbey [00:14:03] And, you know, in terms of New York labor organizing, like, you're now the president of the Capital District Area Labor Federation. How did you first get involved with them? Seth [00:14:14] So I got involved as being a member, so I’ll back up a bit. And so the Capital District Area Labor Federation is a federation of about forty different unions in eleven counties around the Capital District. And so we're, we're an organization part of the statewide AFL-CIO. And so, like our organization, the Capital District Area Labor Federation, there are eight similar ones across the state, one down Hudson Valley, Central, New York, Buffalo, etc. And each of them have a section of the, of the state. And of those affiliated unions, the teachers are one of them. And so for many years, probably, I don’t know, about twelve or so, I was NICE's rep on that board. And so I had sat on the executive board for all of those years. The woman who had been the president of the organization moved up. She's now the president of our statewide Civil Service Employees Association. And so they had an interim come in. He actually had some health issues. And so a year ago, they asked if I wanted to move into that position, and so I did. Christian [00:15:33] So as a president, what is your, what are your current focuses that you're focusing on from issues? Seth [00:15:39] Yeah. So most recently, obviously we were a lot of, very heavy into the politics. So we spent, you know, probably most of the summer in leading up to the elections last week, working with various elected officials. So we always, you know, we do interviews of all the various candidates running for local assembly, state senators, �Congress. We don't usually get involved with small races. Let's say, you know, like, there's the mayor race here that was in Saratoga. We know those folks and some of our affiliates get involved, but as the Area Labor Federation, we just, we work on positions that people are a broad wide area so you know, an assembly person which would cover a whole area or a state senator. So we spend a lot of time talking with the various candidates, letting them know what the issues are for the various unions that are part of our labor federation. And so we've spent, that's where I've been wrapped up for the past couple of months, with all the elections just, you know, trying to get candidates that are, getting them elected to office who are understanding of unions. I don't always tell people, you know, people say, “Oh, you're just getting somebody elected so that they'll favor the unions.” I said, no, I don't want necessarily just to favor the unions. I want them to understand what the union issues are. And if there is legislation that they can pass that will be helpful. You know, one of our big groups is the building trades. So, you know, all kinds of construction sites are around and there's lots of laws that are out there. And we want to make sure that the laws are protecting the health and safety of all those workers. And so we want to make sure that we have candidates and people in that office who understand that as opposed to just, you know, it's great to have a business and they're bringing in lots of tax dollars. But if the people who are working there or building that building aren't going to have a safe environment, that's not good. So we, so we I think a lot of times our issue for the Capital District Area Labor Federation, which is sort of my background, is educating people, making sure that they understand what's going on out there with all the people that are working. You know, I mean, it's, you know, everybody talks about the economy. The economy’s driving the, you know, the prices of houses and gas and then your cost of living and what it's at the grocery store. And we want to make sure we'll all those people, they're working, some of them are in unions and some of them are not, are not. But it's, it's pretty well documented that union wages and benefits drive all benefits of wages, not just people in unions. Corbey [00:18:26] Could you talk about kind of like sort of the specifics of how you're promoting those candidates that are, you know, understanding and favorable towards unions? Seth [00:18:36] Sure. So one of the things we often do is, you know, we'll sit down with those candidates after let's say we've endorsed somebody and then will go through, we'll talk to them about, let's say, some of the public sector people who are, you know, police, firefighters, teachers, public hospitals, you know, what their needs are. Again, going back to talk about what the building trades some of those needs are and to make sure that they understand kind of, as I say, maybe health and safety type laws are. And we get, we will put together education fliers and then, and then our job is to then go out and talk to our members about what these candidates can do for them and to help their, you know, their livelihood and their workforce. Corbey [00:19:27] Mm hmm. And if you had, you mentioned your coming out of the midterm season right now, did you have a lot of, do you think you had a lot of success this season? Seth [00:19:38] We had a decent amount of success, a decent success in getting people either elected or reelected. And then, I think, in even in some of the candidates where we didn't win or the candidate didn't win, the people that we had endorsed, I think in some cases we've made some good connections with people who had been in, I'm thinking of, let's say, the Rensselaer County area just across the river. We had a woman who, very good, she was a public service advocate. She had been on a, you know, sort of a smaller �level government position and she was running for state Senate. She didn't win, but she's not, as she said to me about just a couple of days after the elections, I'm not going anywhere. You know, she's continued doing she works as a child advocate. And so I think we've made new connections with those people. And I think that's always good. And we've made connections with, with those candidates, even if they didn't win, with our unions. And so now they know what we're doing. And I think that's always very helpful, you know, as you move forward, when you're trying to do other kinds of activities. Corbey [00:20:53] And if you have a candidate, you know, that you are promoting and they don't win once their opponent is in office do you ever work with the one who was elected? Seth [00:21:03] Absolutely. There are some candidates that they don't want to work with us. But yeah, absolutely. I've always made it a point, you know, myself personally, and then certainly the Area Labor Federation, made it a point that, you know, those people are elected, they're in office and we need to work through them. Sometimes you know, we have lots of conversations with them and they'll say, you know, “No, I can't support you on these positions,” but at least they understand where we're coming from. So yeah, there are, there are always those kinds of things. You know, like I said, some will just shut you out altogether and they don't want to meet or you always meet with their, you know, assistant to assistant to assistant, you know, kind of thing. But, you know, you kind of keep pestering away at it. And, and that's what our members expect, you know, the members that we represent when we go there, because that's what we always say when we're sitting down with legislators, we meet with them on a yearly basis in the springtime, you know, sort of halfway through their sort of budget season. And we say to them, look, it's not me, Seth Cohen, coming in and talking to you. I'm representing, you know, five hundred teachers in Troy or the Area Labor Federation. We represent about one hundred and twenty five thousand workers in eleven counties around here and their families. And so it's not just me saying this is good. This is on behalf of all these people. Corbey [00:22:33] And do you think that the fact that you're representing like so many people, do you think that has a tendency to make people more receptive to the issues as opposed to if you were just like one, I don't, I don't say lobbyist because I don't know if that's the correct term or not, but if you were just one person trying to meet with your representatives. Seth [00:22:51] I definitely think so. Yeah, it, I think, they, they understand that it's not just, you know, even just me or even that, you know, let's say when I was a teacher president, I would go in and I'd say, okay, I'm representing the five hundred teachers in the city of Troy. But they also know those five hundred teachers have families and they have friends. And that's, you know, families and friends talk to each other. And so it's that whole like that collective idea which really goes back to the whole idea of what a union is all about, being a collective and the strength of many is better than the one. Christian [00:23:32] Were there any surprising ups or downs that happened to you while being the president of the labor union? Seth [00:23:39] Uh, let's see. I think one of the, one of the downs only happened, I'm trying to think now this is 2022. It's about 2018, I guess, in regards to, there is a specific Supreme Court case that affected us. So we're in public sector unions and we have dues. And so when somebody comes in to becoming a teacher or in, you know, works in a public sector, state government, things like that, they join our union and they pay dues to the �union because the union represents them in their contracts. You know, a teacher doesn't have to sit down and say, “Okay, this is what I want for my health benefits or my working conditions.” That's part of the contract that the whole union has put together. And so we charge them dues to make sure that that happens. Somebody in a different part of the country challenged that idea of having to pay dues. And so that, that concept had been around for nearly fifty years, of, if you're part of the union, you pay the dues because they negotiate on your behalf. And so it was challenged in the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court overturned it. And when that happened, all of our members had the ability to say, “No, I don’t want to pay dues anymore.” But the Supreme Court also said if we have a contract, I still have as the president, I still had to advocate on their behalf. And so to me, it was like, well, they're not they're not one of my members, but they get all the benefits of all the things that I'm doing, but they're not contributing. And so, you know, people started calling "Those are freeloaders". And so that was, it was a down because now we, we had the potential to have all these people say, “Well, I'm just going to pull out.” In my local we didn't have very expensive dues because the officers and things got, you know, some small stipends and we had some money to spend on various kinds of things. But you look at the entire state, look at the large country, that can add up to a lot of money. So it was kind of a downer. But one of the things, great things that the state did was we had lots of conversations about and workshops about it, and what we really decided was we need to turn this around to a positive. And so what it actually ended up doing was making us much more aware of the conversations we needed to have with every single one of our members about why it's important to be in a union. And so it was kind of one of the, you asked up and down, it was a downer at first and then we were pretty much able to turn it around to say, “Okay, we need to have a conversation with every one of our members.” So in the city of Troy, like I said, we have five hundred, I had twenty building reps and some officers. There is about twenty people in our leadership. We each got anywhere from twenty five to fifty people and they went individually and talked to them and said, “Are you going to sign up next year to be,” because then you had to have everybody sign in every time on a yearly basis. And so we had those one on one conversations about why it's important to have, be a union. And it really it made a difference. It made a difference in the leadership. It made a difference in the union because then they were like, “Wow, they’re, they're really taking an interest in us.” Out of the five hundred people, we only had one person that did not want to be, join our union. And after about a year he actually left our district, decided to get out of teaching and we actually did that on a statewide basis. I spent a summer, it was probably 2019 going, sort of, door to door to teacher unions, teacher union households, talking to people about the importance of that. So it was a really, actually, even though I said going back to the decision, it was kind of awful at first. We turned it around into this is a really good, sort of, community union building exercise. And I think our union and many of the other public sector unions have actually grown stronger from it. Corbey [00:28:01] And now that, you know, union members, you said, if I’m understanding correctly, don't necessarily have to pay dues. I guess one, like, do the majority of, you know, union members still pay dues voluntarily? And if, you know, if there was a significant drop of revenue, like, what are some of the sources you might have had to turn to for, you know, more funding? Seth [00:28:26] So, yeah, so, so I know for in the teacher unions and public sector unions because the decision just affected public sector unions, not any of the private sector. So, you know, anybody who works for state government, municipal government, teachers, police, firefighters, that kind of thing. And I don't have, I don't know the exact numbers, but it is, there probably still about 95% of what they were before the decision. So it's been very strong. And I think in the areas where they've lost revenue because there's fewer �members, you know, a few members not in, I think most of the unions, they've actually just kind of like done a belt tightening. “Okay. Where can we sort of like look at our budgets, where can we cut back?” And they've tried to scale it that way. In some other cases, they've have, some of the large, you know, let's say the New York State United Teachers, which covers you know, we have six hundred thousand members across New York State, both retired and active teachers. And they look to some other kinds of grant funding. They've looked to some other voluntary contributions or different kinds of things. So I don't think the money aspect has, has hurt the unions. I think it makes them a little more conscious of how they're spending dues money, which is, which is always a good thing. Corbey [00:29:51] Where does the due money tend to be spent on? Like, what are the expenses that come with a union? Seth [00:29:56] Yeah. So in any, almost any union, the majority of expenses of a dues are paid for representing members through contract negotiations, health care benefits, and then I guess sort of in broad terms, the grievance procedure. You know, if something goes wrong or if somebody alleges, you know, my employer has done this to me, I want to file a grievance. And so there's a lot of paperwork involved. There's a lot of legal kinds of things involved. And so obviously all of that takes time and money. And that's where somewhere, you know, you put those three, the salary, health benefits, and the grievances together, that's easily 90% of a union's money. And then the other is, you know, education. There's always newsletters, you know, electronic kinds of things or paper type things. There's membership drives and that sort of thing. One of the things in New York State, let's say for the teachers union I mentioned earlier, I was involved a lot with the politics. None of our dues money went to political type stuff. The only money spent on political things was voluntary contributions. So that's, because that was a big thing. A lot of people would say, “Well, I didn’t I don’t want to be part of the union because I don’t like who they endorse.” And I'd say, “Well, none of your dues money goes to that.” That's a whole separate, it's called vote code. And that money goes to just political type things. And if you don't want to contribute to that, you don't have to. The dues part goes to all that, like I said, the bread and butter kinds of issues. So I think when people understood that, that was another reason people said, “Oh, okay, then I'm fine with that, you know, because I don't want somebody telling me who I have to vote for” type thing. Corbey [00:31:47] You keep mentioning that there are, you know, oftentimes differences between like public sector unions and private sector unions. Can you elaborate on, you know, is there like a political difference between the two make up stuff like that? Seth [00:32:04] Yeah, I guess probably broadly speaking, often times more of the building trades, construction, private sector unions, because their, their livelihood is a little different, it's business driven. And so they work for a company that is a for profit company, whereas somebody in the public sector, you know, if you're a schoolteacher, you work for state government, you're a police officer, you're working, you know, it's essentially like a nonprofit. It's not, it's not an organization that's trying to make some money. So it's just philosophically the kind of, those are two different things right there. And then the other thing that's a little different, most of the public sector unions, at least in New York State, they're part of the various different kinds of state pensions, pension systems. And so, you know, as a, as a teacher, a police officer, firefighter, state worker, you get into a state pension. You know, you contribute for X number of years, you work for thirty years, and when you retire, you have a pension. If you're in the private sector union, let's say you're a, you know, an electrician or steelworker, you are working and you have to, in a sense, many times fund your own pension, sometimes depending on the company. And the �company is matching what you're going through. But it's not always, it's not always the same. And so I think there's some, there's some differences definitely right there. And I think a lot of times the private sector and the public sector have a little bit of a battle over those kinds of things. Christian [00:33:50] You know, as you say, what are some big like intersections that you have with private sectors? Like, are there any like issues that public versus private are both going towards one thing where one gets a larger advantage over the other? Is there anything like that? Seth [00:34:05] A little bit. What I just mentioned about the pensions, I think definitely get more, you know, aspect. But I think recently, I would say in the last five, ten years, one of the aspects has been to try to meld the two and to really work on issues that are beneficial for both. And in, in the Capital District, I think we've been pretty successful bringing in good paying jobs in the sense of different kinds of, let's say, energy, different kinds of energy possibilities down, the Port of Albany has some new development down there. And so when you bring those things in which the public sector supports, all those things being built are being built by the private sector folks in the building trades, in the construction area. So that's one of the things that I've done as just in the year that I've been in, as being president of the Capital District Area Labor Federation. We have both on our executive group. And, you know, we we often have, you know, heated discussions about what's going on. And sometimes it has to do with, you know, what politician is going to favor something. But one of the big things we always come together on is, okay, are they no matter what the politician thinks on X, are they supportive of bringing in jobs that are good for these workers? Because the workers, they're going to send their kids to schools. They're going to have to have, you know, good police in the area. They need good highways and roads that are, that's the public sector kind of thing. So I think once people sort of sit back and realize that the two areas do overlap, they try to come together on it. You know, a lot of times on, you know, environmental issues, you know, there could be environmental issues regarding, let's say, a building. Let's kind of make something up, building a bridge or a highway. And you might have some folks in the environmental area saying, well, this is not really great for the environment, but the construction folks are, “We need this, you know, we need to build this bridge and we need this highway.” And then, you know, once you get people talking about it, you know, is there a way to do it a little better? Because even once you get the thing built, now, the public workers, you know, they need to plow it so there's more jobs for them. There's more tax revenue coming in. Tax revenue helps everybody, schools, hospitals and that sort of thing. So it's, there's a lot of compromise involved. And I think in this day and age with sort of the political climate, a lot of times compromise is not always like the best word is what I hear, even though I always say that's the only way you're going to get things accomplished. Corbey [00:36:52] So I guess, kind of, in your opinion, you know, this can be, like, nationally, locally. What do you think the most pressing issues regarding, like, labor and labor organizing are? Seth [00:37:08] I think the biggest thing today is for the most part, sort of, the change in where new unions or new union workers are coming from. And my experience really is more just in the Capital District. You know, gone are the days where, let's say in the 1960s and seventies, where you had big factories and, you know, there's hundreds of workers, you know, here in the Capital District. There used to be an automobile plant down in Green Island through the fifties, sixties, and early seventies, and there were hundreds of people working there. GE in Schenectady, you know, tens of thousands of people worked there �and they were all good union paying jobs. As those company, or the automobile factories gone, GE is scaling down. GE might even break up into three smaller companies. You no longer have these union organizing where you're trying to bring in thousands of workers at a time. Right now, most of the new unionizing in this area is small. You know, Starbucks workers, you know, fifteen people in one store or ten in another. Even the Amazon warehouse plant, I mean, the one down in Staten Island, there was one down here in Albany. You know, it was a few hundred kinds of workers. And so there's a real shift to the kinds of people who might becoming, workers, you know, McDonald's and all the fast food places if they want to unionize, you know, you're, you're trying to get twenty people at one McDonald's, ten at a different because they're all owned by different people as opposed to trying to say, okay, every fast food worker in the entire state is going to become a part of a union. So it's really a different kind of unionization. It's, it's, it's almost like mom and pop unionizing in, you know, small areas. We have nonprofit places, you know, where there's five or ten people working there and then, and they say, “Well, we'd like to be part of a union.” And so they start looking out and that's really different. You know, there's five people working and one manager or even fifteen people and one manager as opposed to, you know, even in a school system. Yeah. Like I said, I have five hundred people in the city of Troy that's in the school system. That's a lot of people compared to, you know, five or ten here or there. So the way in which we look at unions, I think is going to be changing over the next ten or fifteen years. Corbey [00:39:43] And do you think the fact that they, the new unions that are cropping up are like the, you know, dozen to a couple dozen people, stores and such, do you think the fact that they are smaller, that's, it's obviously possibly a different set of challenges, but do you think overall they're having an easier time because they don't need to worry about collecting, you know, I don't necessarily know the exact process of how this works, but they're collecting like, you know, twelve signatures instead of a couple hundred. Seth [00:40:17] Yeah, I think it's, it is probably a little easier, right. If you have. Okay, there's fifteen people that work here. And if we need to get, you know, whatever, three quarters of them to actually become a union. So we need, you know, eleven. It is a little easier to do that. But, um, it's that so, that, that's maybe a little easier in that sense. But it's also, I think sometimes a little easier for the organization. They only need to target, uh, five or six people to say, “No, I don't want to be a union.” And now you're not going to, they're not going to certify as it as become a union. So it kind of has pros and cons. And I think the other aspect is, you know, when you become a union, you want to become part of something bigger. And these individual stores so that all the, the Starbucks in the area, I don't know how many there are in the Capitol District. There's a lot of Starbucks shops. And I think right now I think there's four or five that have voted yes to become part of union, but they're all their own little union. Even though there's one organization, the retail workers, that are helping to organize them, they're all still individual. It's not like, you know, Store A is combining with store B and they, they talk to each other. They're, they're these little pockets. So trying to bring them all together is one of our jobs in the Area Labor Federation is to try to let them see that they're part of a big group, even if it's just, you know, they only work with these ten people at this one store. So it's definitely presenting challenges and I think it's happening very quickly. And so the people who've been in unions for a long time, this is new for them as well. And so we actually had our annual meeting about a month ago and we brought in someone from state organizing to talk about that, to kind of give some, here are some things that she had worked with some people down in Staten Island and a couple other areas. And so the big unions are trying to reach, and they're trying to stay ahead of the curve in the sense of, okay, we know this is happening. So we now have to, you know, people like myself who have not had that �opportunity to try to organize, you know, just a few people. How do you go about doing that? And so it's an interesting challenge. Um, and so I think that's going to be the, sort of going forward, the future. Christian [00:42:48] Are you guys happy about that? Are unions collectively happy about more companies wanting to be part of one community together, like for example, the Starbucks. Seth [00:43:01] Yeah, I would say probably any union organizer is definitely happy when people want to become a union or part of a union. It just there's, just the challenges about how to go about doing that. And I think the other thing that makes it a little more difficult, the definitely the unions there or the companies that are anti-union, um, you know, with the Internet and the ease of that kinds of communications, it's very easy to shut things down quicker than, than in the past. It's easier for them to get to individual people by, you know, text messages or whatever it might be to shut things down a little quicker. So it's kind of the challenges on both sides. Corbey [00:43:50] So what, uh, you know, you mentioned the changing in unions and now especially that you're coming out of the midterm election. Is there any, like, one particular thing that the Capital, Capital District Area Labor Federation is focused on? Seth [00:44:08] I'm trying to think. We've been, we’ve been so heavily involved with the federation. I think probably one of the big things, one of the things I didn’t mention that we have been doing, we, obviously, I kind of mentioned we do a lot with community. And so one of the aspects that we had been doing for well over two, two and a half years is we’ve been running food distributions. So people go to food pantries, you know, when they’re short on food or they need, need support that way. During the pandemic, people were just, you know, really hurting because they were out of jobs. So we partnered with the Regional Food Bank and Catholic Charities, an organization that helps people in a variety of ways. And so we, we were setting up these food distributions where the regional food bank would come. They drop large pallets of food. We got union volunteers, regular volunteers, and we put together bags of food for people. And then they would drive up and we just took down their ZIP code, asked how many people in a household, and gave them bags of food. And so we were doing them, and we've been doing them now for two and a half years. And then any one drop you might have a family feed or handout, I should say, food for anywhere from four to seven hundred families. And we really, as the pandemic went on, that got bigger and bigger. But the amount of food that was available to us to do that distribution has really dropped off. So one of the aspects, one of the things that we've been trying to work with our legislative people is how can we make this ongoing? It's, not it's really not sustaining for us to kind of six or seven times a month in various areas set up these food distributions, have people driving up and getting food. How can we, making the food distribution better out to the pantries, those kinds of things. So trying to work on those things. In fact, actually, next, Tuesday, myself, the gentleman who's our executive director of the Regional Food Bank, the executive director of the Area Labor Federation, we're meeting with Senator Gillibrand, the New York senator, at the Regional Food Bank, just to have a conversation with her, talk to her, show her what, what they have, what we've been doing. And so, you know, is there a way on a statewide basis, can we make sure that basically people have enough food for them? And, and that's, that's the other aspect of unions, definitely, you know, sort of nonpolitical. Doesn't matter where you’re coming from. We want to help people. And so, so that, that's an area that we're going to be focusing on. �Corbey [00:47:04] That’s wonderful. We are, you know, starting to come up on the most amount of time they want us to run for. But before we go, is there anything you want to add, like, that we didn't talk about that you think, you think would be beneficial to bring up? Seth [00:47:20] Um, well, I think the, I think this is a great project because when I talked to your professor, one of the things that he and I had talked about was most students and, I’ll just ask you guys directly, do either one of you have anybody in your family who is part of a union? Corbey [00:47:38] No, quite the opposite, actually. My dad's a CEO. So… Christian [00:47:41] All my friends are in unions. Seth [00:47:44] Okay. So one of the, because one of the things that we talked about was that families don't often have that interaction because the number of unions households has dropped so much. And so this is a great, great kind of thing. One of the other aspects that, that I do, there's an organization called the American Labor Studies Center. And it's actually housed in the city of Troy in a nineteenth-century house. There was a woman who, in the 1860s was the first woman who was the president of a laundry union. And so we, that's our area there. And they have developed lessons over the years for high schools and things like that. And so that's another aspect that when I'm talking to other people who are in unions, it's like, you know, talk to your friends, your kids, your relatives and things about being in a union and how it's beneficial not only for the union person but also for the company, and that they can work together. So just throwing in a plug for the American Labor Study Center. Corbey [00:48:51] Well, thank you so much for sitting down with us. Seth [00:48:53] Oh, you're welcome. Yeah. Good conversation. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cobey Ellison '24 and Christian Giresi '24 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Seth Cohen Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit August 11, 2023 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 48:59 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Seth Cohen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 17, 2022 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Description An account of the resource Seth Cohen is a retired high school science teacher from the Troy City Schools. He spent 33 years in the classroom as an educator and labor leader. He holds a BA in Geology from SUNY Geneseo and a Masters from SUNY Albany. As President of the Troy Teachers Association, he negotiated a half dozen contracts as well as advancing the profession for the 500 members of the union. He also served on the Program and Policy Councils for the New York State United Teachers and the American Federation of Teachers. He is currently the President of the Capital District Area Labor Federation; the Federation is affiliated with over 40 unions from the NYS AFL-CIO and has approximately 100,000 members in 11 counties surrounding the Capital District. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/3d315bfa54a05937323786925c442481.jpg e01d0182326b8ab1875f4d1eb8a0dd8c https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/66bb262ad4c1c55176cc4c7c528b7eea.mp3 32a3d81ffd927dfa4e5e03c5643c0ff5 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/48d693eeffba411e5daca4114e9bf83e.pdf d7d8508d019f55133e20a8550d4e427f PDF Text Text Narrator: Sean Collins Interviewers: David Guo ‘25, Chloe Hanrahan ‘24, and Elena Shostak ‘24 Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: November 4, 2022 Chloe [00:00:01] Testing. Testing. Sean [00:00:03] Testing, testing. Chloe [00:00:05] Testing, testing. Elena [00:00:07] Oh, yeah, that's better. Chloe [00:00:09] Cool. So. Hi. Sean [00:00:13] Hi. Chloe [00:00:13] Welcome to your interview. Sean [00:00:16] Yes. Chloe [00:00:16] We just wanted to start off by getting to know you if you feel comfortable on more of a personal basis. Sean [00:00:21] Sure. Chloe [00:00:22] So introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about where you grew up and what your community, like, was growing up. Sean [00:00:29] Sure. So my name's Sean Collins. I'm organizer and representative with the Service Employees International Union Local 200 United. I am also the Treasurer for the Troy Area Labor Council, AFL-CIO. About myself, oh, gosh, I've been, I've been with the Local, now as a staff member for, going on ten years in February. How I got to be here, I was telling you before, Elena, right? Sorry. And David? David [00:01:02] Yep. Sean [00:01:02] David. I was telling Elena before outside. I come from a military family. My father was a, was a marine, an enlisted Marine for 23, 24 years. And my mom worked various jobs when I was younger and through my adolescence. She was a flight attendant when she was pregnant with me and into, into, you know, the first year or two of my life and then worked other odds and ends jobs, as you know, due to my, wherever my dad was stationed, you know, wherever we were living at the time. So I was born in Bethesda, Maryland. But I lived in upstate New York—I've lived in upstate New York most of my life. I'm 32. And I would say of that, of those 32 years, about, like, 20, 21 of them have been in upstate New York. I live out in, up in Plattsburgh, out in Oneonta, and lived in the capital district for 14 so years now. I went to Califorina, I went to high school in California and also lived some time in North Carolina, Camp Lejeune in Jacksonville, North Carolina, you know, a couple of times as well. But once I graduated high school, my grandmother, my nana who lives in Binghamton, New York, where my dad is born and raised, she has a New York address, so I used her address as if it was my address to get in-state tuition at SUNY Morrisville. And I think my dad as a marine, he could sort of keep his residency as, �you know, wherever he wanted, even though he was stationed wherever. And so a combination of that I was able to use, and I don't think it's illegal, but it's probably not kosher, if you will. Sean [00:02:39] But I used, I went to SUNY Morrisville for my first year of school studying journalism technology, which was a sort of a new program geared towards, like, you know, at the time it was like 2007, 2008 where they thought, like, blogging was the future was like Ezra Klein and Matt Yglesias and like Andrew Sullivan, you know, all those, like, now they're now I realize, like, really obnoxious bloggers. That was, it was the, it was the thing at the time. And so I was studying that, and then I immediately got, like, bored with it. So, I transferred to UAlbany to study political science and, you know, sort of when I that's how I came to the Capital District. And yeah, I studied political science, political theory at UAlbany until I left UAlbany. I say left; I didn't graduate. I never completed my bachelor's degree. I got a job with Citizen Action of New York, which is a, you know, grassroots, depending on your perspective. But as it says and as it says on the website: it's a grassroots organization, membership organization that works on, like, left, progressive issues. I did communications and, like, PR work for them and then I was kind of more of a desk job and I got tired of talking, you know, on behalf of working people. And I wanted to sort of have them have their own voice. And so from, you know, the opportunity, I'm skipping some stuff, but the opportunity arose for when I was at Citizen Action to start as an organizer with the local, Local 200. And I've been here ever since. Chloe [00:04:19] You touched on that you studied political science, I think. Right? You touched on that. You studied political science. And I think Elena or David, if you want to ask the question that we have in relation to actually your political affiliation, if you're cool with talking about that. Sean [00:04:32] Sure. Elena [00:04:34] So on your KeyWiki it describes you as involved in with the Albany Democratic Socialists of America. And we were wondering if you could describe yourself as a democratic socialist and what that means to you? Sean [00:04:48] Yeah, I would, yeah, I am a member of the DSA, Democratic Socialists of America. I would never, I would never describe myself as a democratic socialist. I think that's just, like, an unnecessary redundancy in terms I would consider myself a socialist. What does that mean, right? As, you know, socialism essentially is is that, you know, workers on the means of production and democratically operate them and determine how they, how they function. Right. And then there's no competitive markets as this is just those markets exist to serve the motive of profit. And so that's, that's what I consider, that's what I consider myself. I think it took me some time to sort of develop that. It definitely started in college doing student organizing and working, you know, through that student organizing, working alongside unionized faculty and unionized graduate instructors, unionized staff on campus, you know, in the most, like, union dense, one of the most union dense parts of the country. It's like, it's like New York City, and then the capital region is, like, up there, in, like, the top five, if not top three. And so it was through that, through those studies, through those interactions with those professors and all those folks that it sort of came to that. And, you know, I joined DSA, you know, like, a lot of folks, you know, in the, in the lead up to the 2016 election and not so much motivated by Bernie, but, like, definitely that in the lead up to when it was increasingly obvious what the outcome was going to be, that Trump was going to win. And it felt like even if I didn't necessarily agree with the DSA, you know, in the totality. It's, you know, a socialist who's not, you know, �who's not a part of an organization. There's, you know, it's they're not, they're not doing, they're not doing socialist organizing and they're not doing socialism because it's right there in the name. It's a social exercise. Chloe [00:06:55] That's awesome. So from what I understand, from what you just said, that kind of like your work with unions, your education, and all of that has kind of played into not just like what you do for a living, but also like your personal beliefs. Would you say that that's accurate? Sean [00:07:09] Yeah. You know, another thing I always, I, so my mom was a flight attendant. She was a unionized flight attendant. And, you know, later on when I say I come from a union family, so I certainly come from a working class family for sure. My dad was an enlisted Marine. You know, my paternal grandmother was, was a union nurse who worked for the state for years, still works for, like, you know, as a substitute nurse, or at least until very recently worked as, like, a substitute nurse for the Binghamton schools. And so, where was I going with this... So, yeah, I definitely, definitely I sort of, as I sort of got started studying these things, I start to pose these, these questions to, you know, to my parents or to my family and stuff like that and start to pull back the, you know, layers of the onion. I was, like, oh, yeah, there's my mom was the flight attendant; my grandmother was, you know, was a nurse; my, my grandmother worked for, you know, as a, you know, civil employee, civil service employee for the State Department and did, like, refugee work for a long time. And then, you know, I had mentioned that my father was a marine and I, setting aside all the issues of American, the American military that we don't need to go into, like, gratuitous detail, you know, on its face there is, there's a, it's a, like, maybe not its face, but, like, there is a noble, you know, notion to that that, you know, here is he is signing up to serve, you know, his country, right? And for me, it's something that I came to glean, like, through high school and into and definitely into college. Is that, like, well, why is that? Why is that particular form of service so, you know, so unique when, you know, I mean, teachers, you know, that the binmen, you know, pick up your trash like all these folks are contributing to their country, to their communities and stuff like that. Sean [00:09:04] And, but that's not, it doesn't, it's not attached with the same sort of value and valor, valor, like, or military service, even, even though, like, especially now, like, I would say, you know, someone who's working in a public school, you know, setting, you know, as a teacher or a teaching assistant or whatever is in an uphill battle one way or the other. And so that sort of, that sort of that, that notion of, like, service on my father's part and also being, you know, subject to the state, you know, it's just, like, I lived where they sent him. I went to school was based on that. I interface with communities based on that, and so I worked and I, you know, when I was a, you know, teenager, I worked on base. I worked at that grocery store. I worked at the exchange like the, like, which is basically I don't know how familiar you are with, like, a military base with the PX is basically like the Macy's on base with like a Rite Aid, you know, it's like but so I, you know, I worked those places and it just sort of that's where I was. And I sort of didn't realize it until much later on, when I was filling out all the paperwork, I was, like, as a federal government employee, I was a member of the AFGE, didn't even realize that that was the thing I had signed up because I was 16 and wasn't thinking about it in those terms. And I come from a sort of somewhat union family, but not like one that was like, you know, it's not like I, my father worked for like GM and his father worked for GM. It's a little bit different. David [00:10:32] Okay, thanks. So,you talked about how you moved from a desk job to essentially organizing, so what was the process like for you in that, like, step up? �Sean [00:10:48] Right. David [00:10:49] Was it, like, difficult? Sean [00:10:50] Well, yeah. So, you know, when I was working at Citizen Action, I was doing, like, other organized, community organizing. And just by nature of, like, these organizations, you always sort of, you know, interfaced with, like the members of the organization or the other coalition partners and their members and their activists and their leaders and stuff like that. And so in that way I was doing, like, organizing, but it was more like, you know, back at the house type of thing, preparing press releases, helping folks draft, like, letters to the editor, you know, updating our website, you know, tracking our press and taking pictures at the rallies. And so I was, I was, you know, I was acting as a—I was organizing. And I was also still involved with, like, the student organization that I was a part of in college, which no longer exists, but, you know, I was, I was still, like, engage with that and, but, you know, I, so it was, it yes, it was a desk job. But I what I mean is, is, like, you know, some of my mentors that I met with there were more, they're doing more of the nuts and bolts organizing of, like, talking to folks, you know, bringing folks into the organization, having those one on ones, really building those relationships. Whereas my role was sort of I say this, you know, thinking back on when I was 21, 22, but I was the sort of topic expert as to, like, how to coach them on how to talk to the press, something that I barely knew how to do, but, like, you know, how to write letters to the editor, you know, these sorts of things. And, and, but I just, you know, I still do a lot of that stuff, but like now I also get to do these, like, one on one conversations with workers and doing, you know, identifying their issues and interest. And, you know, they're, they're in many ways like the essential qualities they have of being a leader or being an activist or being whatever. And they're in their workplace or in their communities. Chloe [00:12:38] Yeah. We were really interested in some of the work that you've done for unionized workers at, like, Capitol Roots. Sean [00:12:45] Oh, yeah. Chloe [00:12:46] And so we were wondering because Capital Roots, from what we understand, is like a nonprofit dedicated to food access and sustainability, but it's fostering a workplace that's not conducive to its employees. It's retaliatory. And we were wondering what it's like to be unionizing or fighting against a system where it's something that the public might view as, like, a good, like, oh, it's a nonprofit, it's helping people, but it's also not helping its workers. So what is that kind of that tension or that struggle or what has that been like? Sean [00:13:24] It's been it's honestly it's been incredibly perplexing. You know, I've you know, again, living having lived in the area for, like, you know, ten, 15 years, you know somewhere in there, now 14 years, I, I've lived, you know, and within, you know, rocks, you know, a stone's throw of, one of their community gardens. And over the years, I had heard stories from past staff about, like, the issues at that, at their workplace, and it was always, like, you know, as an organizer, an union organizer, every, you know, we keep a list of, like, the non-union workplaces that we would like to organize and for various reasons and Capital Roots was there because it does have this and, like, a lot of nonprofits, it does have this, like, sort of stated mission. But I always think, you know, around, like, sustainability and food access and, you know, care for its community. But I always think that the thing is with those things is that, like, you can't really genuinely and authentically perform that service or whatever it is to the community without starting, you �know, without starting at home. Which is not to say that, like, I don't recognize, or the staff don't recognize, the struggles of a nonprofit organization that probably would always want to do more. Any, you know, just taking Capital Roots out of the equation, any nonprofit would probably like to do more for its employers because it doesn't have that, like, profit motive. But, it, it doesn't. You know, I think it's, there are, it becomes, then, a sort of an internal question of, like, what's, you know, what's more important on balance, you know, for the management and its donors or its board, I should say, is, you know, doing this work internally or projecting that we're doing it internally and also, you know, doing an externally, that is a really sloppy way of putting it. But, yeah, it's been, I think, you know, and I think I actually said this in, like, one of the, one of the, to one of the reporters who came to our rally at the beginning of July is just that, like, we understand, these folks aren't working for this organization do not expect to make you know, you know, you know, six figure salaries or anything like that. There's, you know, there's a recognition that, like, nonprofits, you know, do have that, they do rely on grants and funders and foundations and donors and volunteers. Sean [00:15:37] And there's nothing wrong with that. But, you know, set aside the financial stuff, there's other things that the employer can do that, you know, can confer respect and dignity in other ways in terms of how managers and directors talk to their staff and deal with their staff and interact with their staff that they don't do. And that doesn't cost anything to sort of be nice and respectful. And the last thing I would say, too, you know, as a, as a, you know, as a union, our local 200 United, virtually all of our employers are nonprofit employers, colleges and universities, which we have about six, seven thousand members in that division of our union. They're all nonprofit employers, different kind of nonprofit, but they are still nonprofit. A lot of the human service agencies, you know, that provide care and services to, and, you know, day habilitation programs and these sorts of things to the developmentally disabled and in different parts of the state. You know, they're nonprofit employers that we have a lot of public sector workers in school districts, towns and villages. I, you know, in upstate New York, they're, they're nonprofit workers. So it's, it's, you know, they're different, but we, you know, one of the things that we've had to actually convey at Capitol Roots at the bargaining table is that, like, we don't need you to lecture us on nonprofit. We get nonprofit, but it's just that, you know, it's that other stuff that we were, I was talking about before that is, is missing there. Elena [00:17:09] So when a workplace like Capital Roots puts out a statement with buzzwords like valued staff, how does that impact the workers and the union workers fighting for their valued staff? Sean [00:17:21] I'm sorry, say that again. Elena [00:17:22] Oh. So how do these buzz words like valued staff impact workers and union workers fighting for a truly valued staff? Sean [00:17:30] Yeah, I mean, they see stuff like that. I see stuff like that. And knowing everything that's happened and they're all you know, they've all, I mean, the thing about a union, right, is that it, it's the workers coming together to, you know, obviously need to, to bargain and negotiate their terms and conditions of employment. That's what happens. That's the contract. That means the end result, hopefully. Right. But in that, in those interim stages, what happens is, is they're talking to one another, they're communicating, they're creating. I always, you know, just explain it to workers. Is that, like, management, any manager, you know, administration, whatever, they have a system of being able to communicate information and get information back from, you know, and they control it. �That's the beautiful thing about being, you know, the management administration. And so when we're forming a union, we're doing the same thing and we're sharing information across, you know, departments or across, like, job titles and, you know, different, like, programs in the case of Capital Roots. And then, you know, that filters back out to, like, the union leaders and the folks in the negotiating committee. And then we exchange that obviously with the, you know, with the employer, you know, like at Capital Roots. And so what is it? What does it mean when they see stuff? Is that like what I think the managers, you know, at Capital Roots and other places fail to realize is that, like, it drives them crazy because it's just, like, that's not true. Like, it's not, that's demonstrably not true. Just as like a, like a case point with like Capital Roots when we first started organizing there back in, like, May, late May, early June, there's 29. Yeah, 29 directors and staff as of today. As of, what time is it? It's 3:58. So Melissa's last day ends in an hour and one minute. And so with her departure, they're down to 12 staff and 12, you know, 12 staff and directors. So a 50%, like, loss. And it's, and they don't value they don't. She had an exit interview. It was, as she described, it was a very cold experience with her, the HR manager as just, like, barely acknowledged, like, thank you for your three... no, there's no thank you for your three years of service. Not in a genuine sense. And, and that's it. Sean [00:19:38] But what's happening and the reason why I have a hard stop here at 4:30 is, is that they're meeting up at Rare Form Brewing. All the current remaining staff and the former staff are going to get together to have a drink and send, you know, Melissa off. That's where, that's, that's an actual demonstration of value. But what's happened as staff have left, you know, there, in respect to, but what's happened as those folks have left is that, like, if you were liked if you were, to be candid, if you were one of the kiss asses, you got, you got the doughnuts in the morning and the "goodbye"s "was really nice knowing you". And then Melissa, who's been there for three years in their Gardens program, you know, has a cold, you know, exit interview. And it is otherwise just like it's not acknowledged at all. And I went out, you know, I'm just reading between the lines and all that. I imagine there's relief that she's gone. There's another one down, which, you know, I think, again, is just like if you valued her, especially someone like, her, who's been there for three years, I mean, you not only value her, the relationship, the personal relationship, the professional relationship you have, but particularly her as professional three years of experience working for this organization, which is a long time in Capital Roots terms, three years of, you know, knowledge and institutional memory of about how the organization works. All the relationships she has with the gardeners and the volunteers that she works with across their 50 some odd 55 gardens across like Saratoga Counties, Albany, Rensselaer, Schenectady County. Those are all relationships that she's built, not singlehandedly, but she's been a part of building over, over three years. And it's just, like, well, good riddance, because you and this one regard, you went too far. David [00:21:16] It's a bit of a topic switch, but could you elaborate a little bit more about your work with the non tenure track professors at Skidmore and what specifically is your role in that fight? Sean [00:21:27] Yeah, yeah. So I, SEIU 200 United and SEIU, the, you know, our international union which has locals across the country and members 2.1, 2.3 million members in the United States, Canada, and Puerto Rico. That's what makes us an international those, those two. Back in like 2012, 2013, they launched what was at the time called, like, adjunct action and then became, like, faculty forward this, this nationwide organizing project to organize first adjunct faculty and then all faculty off the tenure track primarily, but where possible, all faculty. So what makes Skidmore different from, like, other like public schools, like the SUNYs or your CUNYs in a place like New York is that �public sector, you know, employees are governed by state law. And so there they can, faculty that have access or have tenure are eligible to organize, whereas non tenure track faculty at private colleges and universities, the faculty that are on the tenure stream that are in the tenure streams, rather, they are...there's a 1979 Yeshiva ruling, Yeshiva University of New York City that says that because they have access to tenure, they are, they have their they have a managerial role in their colleges and universities in terms of the budget and the finances, in terms of curricular design, in terms of personnel in hiring and hiring faculty hiring adjuncts or non tenure track faculty or filling tenure vacancies and then tenure in promotion itself. So setting aside that, like, the Yeshiva ruling is, you know, you know, as it's applied today doesn't really, it doesn't make sense in the contemporary college or university that we started organizing SCIC or SEIU the royal way, if you will, started organizing faculty across the country, particularly non tenure track faculty. Sean [00:23:35] And so our local, we started, we launched our campaign at Marist College because like I said before, we have we already had about, like, four or five thousand members in higher education. And if you throw a dart at a college or university along, like, the New York State Thruway corridor, we have members on that campus. So, like, I represent members at, like, Vassar College and Bard College in the Hudson Valley. We have members at Marist as well, and then other colleges across the state, too. So we started at Marist because there was, like, at the time I think it was like five hundred or six hundred adjunct faculty and we were, like, well, we already have these, like, two hundred plus, like, janitors and building and grounds workers who maintain the campus and we have, like, it's it's a, it's an incredible contract that those workers have. I mean, they're making you know, it it's just like I think starting rate for, like, a janitor is like $22 an hour, like premier, like health insurance benefits, a pension. It's a good, like, union job. And you can say and then those folks, you know, a lot of our members who, you know, are working as a janitor, they don't themselves have, you know, college education, but they can send their kid to school at a place like Marist or in a place like Vassar for free. And so it's, you know, it provides, you know, that sort of social mobility for their, for their children. Sean [00:25:22] So we started we were, like, this is a great contract, you know? And, you know, of course, of course that will win this campaign at Marist. We did not. It was it was it was. Marist is a very interesting college. I, what's his name? Bill O'Reilly is an alumni from there. So, it sort of gives you a little bit of a taste of what the student body is like. And we, we, we, we lost that election. But as part of, like, a lot of the press and sort of attention that the campaign got, not necessarily lost, but the campaign got a friend of mine, our acquaintance who became a friend through organizing here in the Capital District. He's like, "I am an anthropology professor at Saint Rose, and they just canceled one of my courses and I'm pissed about it and I want to organize my workplace". And he just fired off an email over like the college Listserv and, and then got a bunch of responses and started meeting up with them for drinks and so on and so forth. And then they won their union like 3 to 1. Then we organized SUNY Schenectady Community College. We organized Siena. There's a bunch of other organizing victories across the state from there. Fordham University. Ithaca College, Wells College out in the Finger Lakes. So we, you know, we won a lot of, you know, victories across the state at about in 20. I forget the actual timeline. Now it's some say 2018, some say 2019. I'll just agree with the folks who said 2018 because they've been right about most everything else. We start, we had a conversation at that cafe over in the, that Fresh Market Plaza. You know, over here I met with Pete Murray, who's a philosophy professor here at Skidmore, and Kate Paarlberg, who at the time was a history professor in International Affairs and History. I think her background is, like, in Latin American and Caribbean studies. And I met with them and that, you know, they were like, this is, these are, these are various, you know, issues and concerns. One �of the ones that they talked about was the pay disparity at the time, I think it's been chipped away a little bit. But the pay disparity between men and women, you know, faculty where so again, philosophy Pete Murray and then Kate, history. So, you know, the liberal arts, you know, the humanities, sort of generally equally valued or undervalued by college administrations. Sean [00:27:09] He made $10,000 more than her, something like that, again, it was 2018, so I might be inflating that a little bit, but there was a pay discrepancy, nonetheless. And then looking into data that the administration has done, that the faculty have sort of dug up themselves through surveys and talking among their colleagues and identified it, too. So, like, whether it's 10,000 or not, the point is it's demonstrable and it's across the, you know, across the college. And so we started having conversations and it was very slow going at first. And, you know, but you know, it, we sort of got, got some heads, you know, some steam into 2019 and then, then the pandemic interrupted everything. And then last semester, well, not last semester, the fall of 2021 semester, we sort of had a conversation at the beginning and it was like, you know, things were starting to open back up. All the frustrations that we've seen across the, you know, economy in across the workforce, you know, sort of they played out here, too, in their own sort of specific way to faculty. Sean [00:28:09] And, you know, my role, to answer your question right, is as the organizer, is to sort of push them to talk to their colleagues and to build support for the unions to, you know, sort of execute, you know, a plan to win that we sort of developed together. But that is informed by, you know, my experience at other places and, you know, what I've seen at other colleges and universities across the country. And so we had a conversation that beginning of fall 2021, which is that, like, if this is going to happen, if we're not going to continue to burn ourselves out, you know, reaching a certain threshold and then, you know, new faculty come and go and we are back to square one in many ways, and we really need to just put our shoulder into it. And that means like having, you know, conversations with as many faculty, if not all of the, at the time we thought it was about 180 non tenure track faculty. You need to go out and have like if you think about it, there is like ten folks in the cause. Like if you each have two conversations and identify two supporters a week, you know, two times ten times, you know, sixteen weeks in the semester, you know, you go from there. And so that's, that's where, you know, we did that through the fall into the spring. And then in May, we reached the threshold that we set of 60% support across the college. And that's when we went public. Sean [00:29:28] And then there was the election. Well, initially, the college was sort of reticent. They were, you know, allowing the election to go forward. We were able to reach an agreement. I'm sure you might have a question about that. We were able to reach an agreement. They had an election in September, and then they won their election, you know, 2 to 1, at least in both the full time and the part time unit. And so now, you know, my role transitions from organizer, solely organizer not that I'm not still an organizer, but, like, now I'm, like, transitioning to, like, being the representative. So helping them set up, you know, a negotiating committee, identifying who wants to serve in that negotiating committee, identifying what the bargaining priorities are through surveys, and then preparing those as with, with the response to those surveys, which is, like, all right, well, now we know what folks are looking for. Now I help them memorialize this into, like, an actual, like, contract proposal. And then we go to the table with that committee that they elect from among their peers. And I serve as the chief spokesperson for the committee. But, like, they develop the proposals and help develop our counterproposals and counterproposals to counterproposals. And again, I think it's, you know, it's in many ways, it is like the organizing drive, too, though, is that, like, I, you know, I always describe my �role as is that, like, I'm a mouthpiece, but a mouthpiece is nothing without the person who is the voice. And that's you all. It's the workers themselves. And so I can help sort of translate it because, you know, Skidmore can afford a, you know, a pricey attorney. So I could sort of translate it into their language. But I don't, what I can't do is I can't, like, provide the narratives of the day-to-day experience of the faculty or any worker. And so that's where they come in. So I'm the chief spokesperson, but that's really inflating the role. It really, I would really be nothing without, like, I would, I can't accomplish anything on my own because I don't work here. They do. And they have to be able to talk about their experiences and what changes and solutions they think need to be in place. Chloe [00:31:20] Yeah, I am. I am. I know of one adjunct professor. She used to come to the German club that I'm a part of. Ruth McAdams. Oh, yeah. And she's. She's wonderful, very kind, warm. And I know that she had a hand in. Sean [00:31:34] Oh, yeah. Chloe [00:31:34] A big hand in this. Sean [00:31:35] Oh, yeah. Chloe [00:31:36] And I was just wondering a little bit about, like, the, the power dynamic between a non tenured track professor speaking out and, and advocating for herself, theirselves, themselves, himself and, and also what you think of the overall shift in academia to adjunct professors. Like, there's this big wave of it's becoming solely adjunct and lecturers. These tenure track positions are fading away. So those two questions and then if you see this, this shift in any other fields to more, like, add on people than actual salaried guaranteed health benefits, all those kinds of things. Sean [00:32:19] I first, I should say, like, Ruth McAdams is, is an incredible organizer and as near as I could tell, also an incredible professor and instructor. And I actually, I didn't even realize until, like, I think it was about, like, two or three months ago that she also speaks German. I was, like, “Oh, this is crazy.” And she's an English professor too, I think that's wild. So, she's great. And the rest of the committee and there's so many folks on it. Diana Barnes, Pete Murray I mentioned before, Mike Paulmeno here in the library a lot of, you know, I just and I'm, Eileen Sperry in the English Department and I should stop because I’m going to forget somebody, but they're all incredible. The question of, like, the role or about, like, the risks that they take as non tenure track faculty in organizing. You know, I think it's it's, it's, it's, it's, a little, it's, it's interesting because, like, I think in many ways, like academia is no different than the rest of the workplace. Right. They, they a boss is a boss is a boss. I tell workers this all the time. However, there is the, the thing that is unique to a Skidmore college compared to like Walmart or Starbucks is that this sort of, the, the culture of academic freedom in the university or the academy as a, as a place of the free exchange of ideas. Sean [00:33:40] And to be able to arguably say, and this is changing obviously a lot, but like the, to say the controversial thing or the, the, the, or maybe the unpopular thing or in the case of organizing, I think the undesirable thing, at least in the eyes of the administration, they would prefer, like any other boss, they would prefer to have unilateral discretion to set the terms of conditions of employment. Right. And so I think so that's the sorta, like. So I think in the case of is, is Ruth taking a risk or any of those committee members taking a risk? Of course, absolutely. Any worker who organizes their workplaces but is engaging in, what I believe it to be, like, the most courageous thing that anyone �could do is to basically risk the thing that pays their bills by trying to organize it. But it's, it's a I always say it's a, it's the best gamble you can make because if you do it, I mean, the sky's the limit from there. And so, however, like, I do think that there are, there's sort of the culture of academia make it a little bit, a little bit not safer, but like, you know, it's, it's, it's there's, it dulls the edge to that risk. A little bit, just a little bit. And I think, you know, you could see similar trends of that in, like, other organizing that we're seeing. So we've seen a lot of organizing happen in, like, the not for profit space, like a lot of, like the Guttmacher Institute as, like, a, like, a pro-choice, pro-choice or pro-abortion, like, you know, advocacy and research organization, where the workers organize. Now, the boss, like, was, they were, came out really strongly against it, very harshly against it. And there was retaliation there as a part of that organizing drive. Sean [00:35:17] But, I think that nonprofit space is, you know, is a place where that is, that, that instances like I don't want to say rare, but it's like a little bit it's not as, not as likely as, like, what you would see at Starbucks, right. Or Amazon or what have you. I mean, so there's nonprofit organizing, a lot of, been a lot of newsroom organizing, which is interesting. So, like, the Los Angeles Times, a few years ago, they organized and it had been for the number was, like, a hundred and forty seven years there had been, had been a non union newspaper. Compared to, you know, other side of that on the right coast, on the cool coast, the east coast that the New York Times one of the, like, the longest, you know, running union newspapers in the country. So, you know, I think these, these workplaces where they're more, like, liberally minded or, you know, and, you know, or, you know, progressive oriented. There's, there's been I think we were seeing just there's been more propensity of them to organize. But, you know, there's still risks at any of these places. What was the other part of your question was like what makes colleges and universities like sort of different, right? Chloe [00:36:29] Yeah, like if you, if you, what you, sorry. If you see, what do you think of the field of academia moving towards this? And then if you see the trend, oh you just answered the question, you see it in other places. Sean [00:36:43] Yeah you do see it I think in terms of, like, I think what's happening in academia is like they've been toying with this, experimenting with this for the better part of, like, let's say forty, fifty years. So, you know, Sodexo is on campus, right? Even though the workers here are direct employees of the college, Sodexo is a subcontractor. You know, so it's, it's, you know, the college is nonprofit, but it's brought in this profit, you know, oriented for profit corporations around it's dining halls. That's pretty common on college campuses. You have a lot of subcontracted employees in not here, but in other places like janitorial building and grounds, the facilities maintenance of a college, the dining halls. So there's, there's that I think that, that is. But with adjuncts I think it's, I mean, I just think that is just like corporate logic, you know, in academia and, and it's not, it's not in any way dissimilar. Not really. In the end of the day, in terms of the result, in terms of like what we're seeing in charter schools and, and the charter school movement, it's just like, you know, like what happened in New Orleans, you know, it's just, like, oh, you know, there was a historic hurricane that, like, flooded the city, you know, basically they shed, like, what, like, half their population over the course of a year from everybody, you know, that was affected by that moved to Houston and they never came back. And they're like, we'll get to the levees. But first, we're going to completely charterize our public schools. Sean [00:38:07] And, and that is just to get out from underneath union contracts and to bust unions and to, you know, to cut pay, cut benefits the whole year. And I think the same, like, the same thing is happening with adjuncts. It's just that, like, you know, even, �even within our union, right? With that recently formed union there's Ruth who is a full professor, not a full professor, but as a full time professor, you know, teaching a full course load, making, you know, north of sixty thousand dollars something like that, whatever her salary is, like, I don't recall offhand. And then, you know, there's an English adjunct who is teaching maybe two courses this semester who is making forty-five hundred dollars a course. So if she if, if she's teaching a full load or full and also doesn't have any service obligations like Ruth, even though Ruth and others engage in service, they don't have any service obligation. So if you do the math there, I mean it just like as a I mean, it's a that's, that is not even, you know, a fraction of what Ruth makes for teaching that exact same course. And Skidmore said, maybe setting aside Skidmore for a second and thinking about a place like actually, like, Marist, where there is, you know, it's, there's, it's a little bit more they have a, like the full-time professors have, like, you know, they have a heavier course load than the faculty here do. And, then the, the faculty here do, I mean, I mean, you're talking about like a six thousand dollar, sometimes, thousand dollar difference between in terms of the pay parity or lack of pay parity between a part timer and a full timer. And that's, that's just it's not profit extraction necessarily, but it is like inherently exploitative. Elena [00:39:50] So you're sitting here with three future members of the workforce? Sean [00:39:54] Oh, yeah. Elena [00:39:55] How do you think we as our generation can fight against our labor being co-opted? Sean [00:40:00] Oh, I love this question. I always, I always listen to this whenever I talk to students. Unless you're like a Vanderbilt like or something like that, like, unless you're like, you know, like Anderson Cooper and you have a you know, you're going to have a boss when you graduate college. You have a boss now in college. I mean, I don't know if you any of you do like work study or anything like that. So you're already engaging in, you know, work, I mean, and, and are already experiencing it even if you don't have a work study, you know, obligations. But if you're, you're already being taxed essentially to get an education that they tell you is essential by having to take out student loan debt, that you will probably, you know, once you enter the workforce, will struggle initially and maybe over the long term, too. I mean, I went down to Albany and I, you know, as we said before, I sort of cheated my way into in, in school to in state tuition and then left. And I have twenty-eight thousand dollars in student loan debt for, you know, a piece of paper that I decided not to get, but like ostensibly, you know, whatever. But so, like, you're already, you're already being taxed to sort of enter the workforce because they tell you that this degree is essential and then you're going to get into the workforce. And it's definitely not going to be, you know, at worst, it's not going to be, you know, consistent with the cost of living in the area. Most likely you're not going to be in it, most likely because it's the United States and you're not going to be in a democratized, you know, workplace where you have a right to representation, where you have just, you don't have just cause, you don't have just cause protections. You, you don't you can be terminated at any time. You're an at will employee. And, and so I think, I think the, the thing I always tell students is that your, if you're not currently a worker now, you're going to be a worker, you're going to have a boss, and that person is going to have, you know, and it's, it's, it's an unbalanced relationship. They, it's asymmetrical. They have all the power, all unilateral discretion, all arbitrary authority. And you ask “how high?” That's your, that's your role. Unless, of course, and that's why it's important to organize a union so that you, let's say when they say “jump” well let's talk about how the hell we are going to jump first and why are we jumping? You know, that's, that's the, that's the, that's the point of a union. �David [00:42:14] So last question. Do you have anything else you'd like to share about yourself or your work? This archive? Sean [00:42:21] Sure. Anything else that I think, so as a, as a, you know, as a union organizer and then as we talked about initially, as a, as someone who identifies as socialist, I find it, you know, it's as it is right now. The two things are sort of, you know, or they're sort of at odds with each other. Not at odds with each other, they struggle with, there's a tension between them. Whereas as a socialist, I believe that, like, you know, management as a whole is in the way of workers being able to, I think, truly and efficiently, like, you know, perform their, their jobs in the service they provide to the community, whether it be educating, you know, future workers, or, you know, you know, providing fresh, you know, sustainable food to, to folks, whatever the case may be that management is in the way. But yet my job inherently requires me to interface with management and, you know, sort of bite my tongue and say, like, “you're kind of worthless.” I can't say that to them. That just wouldn't go over well. Not worthless, but, like, you are, you, you're kind of the bigger waste here than the workers are. You might think our demands are excessive or whatever the case may be, but you especially, you know, at a college, you know, you make two hundred thousand dollars and you have, you know, you can, you look at us and you talk about, like, our demands around like staffing. So I also represent a lot of building maintenance workers, like I was saying before. And so they look at our demands around, like, we need more janitors. How can you have a thousand acre plus campus that has so many millions of square footage to, to clean so many bathrooms, so many stairwells, so many, you know, trash cans to empty, all these different things. Sean [00:44:00] And we're talking about staffing and you're saying, “oh, it's a, is it, that's, we can't afford that.” It's, like, well, you have, you know, this human resources office has, like, six people to basically one of them set your schedule, likem, you're not working efficiently, efficiently by that, by your own logic, you know, compared to us. And so that wouldn't go over well, that would not, that would, that would be received poorly. And sometimes you do get an opportunity to say that. But sometimes you just have to bite your tongue or at least rather than, like, I had to bite my tongue and just like, yes, you're a socialist, but your job is also to, to, to try to do the most for, for your, for our members. Right. And so I have to ,I have to be at it. It's an interesting tension to, to tell, so that that's one thing. And then I just about myself and I think this is, it applies to anything, any job you're going to do, whether it be working in the labor movement or, you know, you're saying physical therapy, right? You know, so care work. Right? History is, is imbued in everything that we do. It informs everything that we do. And the more you know about whatever the thing you're doing. So I read a lot of labor history just as, you know, as interest, but I also just read, like I have a thing with monarchs. I just read about, like, I just finished a book about King George III. And I, you know, I'll just, I'll just dart around. My, my wife got me, like, a book on, like, Sultan Mehmed, that was, like, incredible. And so just like, it's not relevant to labor history, but history itself imbues, it informs, it blazed the trail that’s behind us. And there are lessons from it to apply to what's what we're going to try to do ahead. And that applies to the labor movement, that applies to care work. There are lessons from those historians from, you know, folks doing stuff like yourself and documenting these narratives. It's all, it's all really important. And so everyone should and I know you were saying this before you. It was this class got you interested in history because history is fucking cool and you just got to find the right stuff that, you know, speaks to your interest. And that's something, you know, I just think is always important to think about. So. Yeah. �Chloe [00:46:14] Thank you so much Sean. Sean [00:46:16] Thank you. This is awesome. Chloe [00:46:18] Four Minutes early. Elena [00:46:19] Yeah. So thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview David Guo '25, Chloe Hanrahan '24, and Elena Shostak '24 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sean Collins Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Eric Morser Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit August 11, 2023 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 46:25 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sean Collins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 4, 2022 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Description An account of the resource Sean Collins is a union representative and organizer with Service Employees International Union (SEIU), Local 200United. He also serves as a delegate and President of the Troy Area Labor Council, AFL-CIO. He lives in Troy, NY, with his wife, Ashley, and their son, Benjamin. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/be3d11da4d31402361d4d3a49f4d9070.png e68324fba5645bc4c24155098ef80269 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/1f2e0ba5b66caf8530d73ce86f0ebc64.mp3 f9f2620c062ba2aa4784da2671be9b60 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/a2919d894375fef3fea1efd2c113e1de.pdf e27e92ed12e6e1ad4c5f328b25ea4a27 PDF Text Text Narrator: Sandie Carner-Shafran Interviewers: Max Chelso ’24 and Sophia Delohery ‘25 Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: November 2, 2022 Max [00:00:01] Today's date is November 2nd, 2022. This is Max Chelso speaking. Sophia [00:00:07] And I'm Sophia Delohery. Sandie [00:00:08] And I'm Sandy Carner-Shafran. Max [00:00:11] So Sandy, what was your experience growing up? Where did you-- where were you born? What was that like? Sandie [00:00:18] Well, I was born in actually Hartford, Connecticut. My parents divorced. My mom lived the rest of my life, I lived in Waterbury, Connecticut, and went to school there, East Farms Elementary, and then moved on to Crosby High School, where I ultimately graduated. It was during times of very, a lot of unrest. That was when there was forced segregation and that kind of stuff going on. Max [00:00:56] So this is a bit of background we have, but, since you became an educator, what was your schooling experience like? Sandie [00:01:03] Schooling-- my experience going to school? Okay. So I, I completed high school in 1968 and I went on to post junior college in Connecticut and I took a little over, but didn't quite get my associates. So, uh, cause I ran away and got married, silly girl. And that's where I stopped. Then I went on after I got married, kids came and I kind of went back to school and got a few more credits. Still didn't quite complete my associate's degree. Life got in the way. Max [00:01:47] So after that or during that, what was your first job? Sandie [00:01:52] Well, my first job then was basically helping out at my husband's family's hardware store. Um, that wasn't so much fun. I dusted and put orders away. Not much in intellectual, you know, stimulation. It was basically very rote. And my brother in law was the owner, so it wasn't like we could really change stuff there. So I didn't have a lot of power, which I seem to crave at times. Back in those days, it was the seventies. So, you know, there was a lot of changes going on. Vietnam, I had a child, the news was not good on at supper time. It was pretty, pretty devastating to watch and to hear. And a lot of stuff was going on. Max [00:02:50] So after that, what was your continuing experience with employment? Sandie [00:02:58] So I went on. Ultimately, we took over the store and then then stuff went down and we sold it back. I ended up, you know, I had three sons by then. My youngest was going back to school, was going to kindergarten, and it was time for me to get a job and get out of the house. And I happened to be at a Little League game and a colleague that I knew socially came up and said, “Hey, you like kids?” And I said “somewhat.” And they said, How about subbing at the BOCES in Saratoga? And I said, "Well, what does it involve?" And they said, "Well, a bunch of us carpool every day to go down. You could always ride with us. And basically you help with kids with disabilities and they're looking for help." And that was like in May. And so I said, "Okay." And they called me and I worked �every day in May and in June until school stopped. And then the exciting news was I just was in love with the kids, the staff, the whole idea, making a difference. The kids were incredible and they were pretty severely, profoundly, you know, handicapped at the time. We had a lot of wheelchairs, supine boards, all kinds of physical equipment to work with the kids. But I still loved it. I loved everything about it. Every day was an adventure with the kids and gym and cross-country skiing with kids that would have a seizure. But we'd pick them up and we'd keep going. And the kids laughed about it and sledding and doing all kinds of fun things, taking them swimming and everything. We even camped with some of the kids at one point later on in life. But the big thing was I wanted to continue and the principal, Mr. Crowley at the time, called me in, early in August, late in August and said, “I have a position at the BOCES. Would you consider working in special ed full time?” And we talked about it. My husband and I and I agreed to do it. I was real excited. So September 1982, I became a full time employee as a teacher aide at the SaratogaWashington-Warren-Hamilton-Essex BOCES on Henning Road was called the Meyer Center, and that started my career. I made $3,000 that year and I had full family matrix health care, which was unbelievable at the time. That was worth like $25,000, $28,000 back then for family health. And that was because I was working there. Didn't get a lot of money in my pocket, but that was wonderful. I think that eventually my husband started to get upset because I wasn't making any money and he kept telling people in our circle that, "Costs me money for her to work there," which he was right. You know, gas, different clothes, you know, timing. The kids were in school, so we didn't pay a sitter. But it was it wasn't very I could have made a lot more money if I worked in Corinth, where we lived at the grocery store. But my argument was I'm not making a difference stacking cans. I'm making a difference in the lives of the kids that I touch at school. And I'm going to make it worth it, for me, because I didn't want to quit and have to work at a grocery store. Sophia [00:06:37] Yeah. Sandie [00:06:37] That's when my union kicked in. Sophia [00:06:40] Yeah. It's great to hear how much, like, love you had for that job. Sandie [00:06:45] Well, I just adored the kids. I so. So I did, you know, we made costumes, we did all kinds of stuff. We…I made a huge Christmas Santa Claus costume for one of the big kids to wear one time. And the teacher that did, uh…rying to think of what they called it back then, he did woodworking and he taught, they built a big sleigh. So we took pictures with the kids, with Santa. And it was just always something, always something that was a little extra because these kids needed it and the staff just ate it up. Max [00:07:23] So I get the sense that you enjoyed your work. But were there any challenges be it at the daily level or at a more structural level that you faced on the job? Sandie [00:07:38] Well, there was. There wasn't enough hands. We did get breaks, but sometimes we ate lunch with the kids, which could be kind of, I would say, difficult because, you know, they had feeding problems and it wasn't the most hygienic or fun place to eat when you're trying to feed children that could choke or have a seizure and stuff. So there was times when our breaks were ignored. There was times when we were lifting without help. You know, there was a lot of stuff that, that kind of took some of the joy away from the actual job because you felt frustrated, you weren't being supported. We didn't have a lot of training back then. I can remember them bringing in some speaker one time, and it was an older woman that talked about, you know, prioritizing your jobs and, you know, kind of really not pertinent to what I needed to learn. I actually read my contract �thinking that that two pages was going to tell me something how to help a child in a seizure or help someone drink from a sippy cup that was cut out and, you know, different things to do my job better and it wasn't there. I was lucky that our occupational therapists, physical therapists and special ed teachers were more than willing to give us some help. But they had work to do and they couldn't. It would be like having another student because, you know, you just didn't know, some of the things we needed to do. And that was, that was becoming more frustrating to a group of us. A bunch of us got hired that September. So it was probably a good 20, 30 of us that got hired because special ed was just blowing up. They had done, I believe the Willowbrook decision had come down at that time, just prior, and they had to start taking some of these handicapped individuals out of the main big giant institutions and putting them in group homes and taking them to schools. So that kind of changed the landscape for schools. So we housed them in the main center. There was another center up in Glens Falls. We didn't merge those two centers until later on. But so there was some dissension in the troops, and there was some frustration as to how can we make it better, both financially and educationally, too. If I'm trained, I can do better with the kids. That was my main goal. Max [00:10:25] Uh, you gave some explanation about this, but could you just tell me exactly what the Willowbrook decision is? Sandie [00:10:31] Well, I'm not great with the year. We'll have to go back and think about when it was. But there was a big exposé that news gentlemen put on TV and it was Willowbrook was a downstate asylum for people with, supposedly were supposed to be unable to function in society. But when they went in and found the deplorable conditions they were unclothed, filthy, soiled, and many were put there because maybe they were just a little unruly back then. They were maybe maybe they're just delayed, but could certainly function in society with the correct supports. But they were-- it was a dumping ground. There were people there that had been there 30, 40 years from, you know, being a young child. It was really horrible. Horrible. And that's when it came out. And they broke up these asylums, and they weren't just there. They were in other places. And they made it a law that they had to put them in society, in smaller group homes, to be more like families was a wonderful thing. I actually had an aunt and they…an aunt through marriage that were put in one of those situations, because they were 14, and they were a little bit boy crazy, and they spent their life in an institution. We were little kids. We didn't know what was wrong with them. So it was it was profound as a teenager to know that if you didn't obey your parents, that they could send you a place like that. Scary. Sophia [00:12:29] Yeah, that's, that's really heavy. Sandie [00:12:31] Yeah. Sophia [00:12:32] And that had, I mean, you talked a little bit about this, but that caused, like, an influx of more kids on your work, and that kind of..? Sandie [00:12:38] Yeah, yeah. Ultimately, people couldn't hide their children. You know, so many families back then were probably embarrassed. Oh, our son can't talk, oh, our daughter is, you know, crippled or, you know, can't communicate. So they kept them home and they kept them in rooms and they didn't help them. They couldn't thrive in that condition. So then they ultimately, if something happened to the parents, these children were put into these asylums, it was an awful, awful thought. And quite frankly, if you put them into smaller group homes, as we know today, many of them thrive. They go on, they �do jobs in the community and become active citizens. They pay taxes, and…just like you and me. Max [00:13:32] So you touched upon this, and I can see how the situation would be exacerbated by this Willowbrook decision. But how was that you got into labor organizing? Sandie [00:13:46] Well, that's when I told you I was getting frustrated with lack of training, lack of just understanding that we needed a better pay because I wanted to stay in that job. That job was something that was dear to my heart. So I ended up going in early during the day, every day because of the carpooling. And I ended up sitting in the career and tech faculty room, a career and tech program. Those folks, mostly men, came out of the, quote, real world. They were teachers that became teachers, but originally they were welders and home builders. They had been out in the real world. They understood unions. They understood, you know, a contract. So they would talk about stuff and I would be listening and paying attention. And then they talked a little bit more about, oh, there's going to be a a picket in Stillwater or Mechanicville. We're going to meet out here. And I thought it was kind of important for me to go with them. So I would come down, get in the car with a group of us, and we'd go picket. Now, that was probably, you know, 40, 40 some years ago. I ended up working 38 years, but early on, so that was like the early eighties and NYSUT, New York State United Teachers Union, the officers would be there at those pickets, and they would be helping to organize people to get better contracts. And the more I heard about it, the more I realized that, why can't we fight to have a better contract, more pay so that I can keep this job? So I started asking more questions in the faculty room, getting more answers. And then one of the presidents came up to me and said, “Hey, you want to be a negotiator, be on the negotiating team?” And I said, "What is it?" And they told me, "Oh, you'll love it. It's fun." Negotiating is not fun unless you have a little bit of a legal mind. And evidently I did, and I enjoyed it. I got right in and learned the ropes and pleasantly surprised. Very frustrating at times. Sometimes they swore. And that was a little bit of a shocker. You know, I wasn't supposed to, you know, you don't swear at people in their suit jackets, but they were swearing and it was getting pretty rough in there at times. And I had taken a few workshops. The president and the union officers had taken me to a couple of things that NYSUT put on and how to bargain and stuff. And I started realizing that I had a voice and they could have a suit jacket on, but we had the same power when we came to the table, which really shook me up and made me stand a little taller. And I said, “okay.” And one time I just had about enough from the business agent. He kept telling us that teacher aides, secretaries, all of us that weren't teachers were similar and could not get paid any higher than a nurse, his wife, at the hospital. And I said, “but that's, that's apples and oranges. That has nothing to do with what I do.” I was working right alongside a teacher. I was teaching a small group. I was doing all things before they changed the rules, but I was doing everything, plus changing diapers, taking them to the nurse and doing all kinds of stuff. So I fought it, fought it. And the one time he started giving me a lot of trouble at the table and I said, “I'm…I'm just going to call a stop.” And I said, “I'd like to caucus. I'd like to stop.” So we did. And they said, "Why?" And I said, "Because I'm tired of your old song. Sing me a new tune." And I walked out. I couldn't believe I did it. I was like, "Oh, my, I'm in trouble now." But I wasn't. Because when I came back in, he was all red in the face. And we ended up getting a 29% raise, which was unheard of. Of course, 29%, which I wasn't really good at math, remember I told you that. 29% of nothing is not much. But it still put us on the map. It showed them that we weren't going to just go away with two pages of paper. We were we ended up with everything the same as the teachers, the same breaks, the same insurance, the same amount of sick time. And we got a raise. We even had longevity put in there, eventually, over the years, we got longevity. Eventually, down the road, we fought to get career enhancement for �education purposes. We could get money to take college courses. If we were preapproved and we passed with a good grade, we could get the money back. So that's sort of where it got me going. Sophia [00:19:17] Yeah, that's incredible. And what was the, like, what did you feel the public support was, at the time when you were doing this initial work? Like in the eighties? Sandie [00:19:27] Well, the public loved the, you know, the teachers back then. They loved anybody that worked with their kids, we used to get beautiful presents from the parents. And I have ceramic Christmas ornaments and all kinds of things from the parents. It was really good up until, you know, really recently when the whole country kind of got a little crazy before COVID and started blaming grades on teachers. And it really isn't. And of course, now it's far from that. And they've disenfranchized a lot of young people like yourselves from going into education because, you know, granted, you can get a lot more money out in the tech field or other places. You can get respect. But the bottom line is, can you love your job as much as I did? Probably not. I loved it. I love the kids, like I said. And I keep saying the kids made it worth it. You know, you could have a terrible day. You could feel like you had a bad hair day. You go in and I had a young man named Charlie. He had so many things going, you know, kind of against him. But every time he saw you, I'm telling you, he'd say, "Oh, Miss C., you look beautiful today!" And your day just instantly became great. The kids would say they were sorry if they had a bad day. It just was like if one little boy couldn't draw five, couldn't draw five, and then all of a sudden one day he did a five. And I cried, because he was so excited. He wrote fives, like, almost all day. He just was so excited. And I told my kids when I came home, my sons, and they actually…my ten year old came to school, you could bring your child to school back then for, and he was so impressed and he said, "I'm never going to feel upset again about something I can't do when I see how hard those kids work to just do their alphabet or to even stand up at the bulletin board. I'll never complain again, Mom." So, that tells you something. Sophia [00:21:43] Yeah. And can you tell us a little bit more? I'm curious about how COVID has impacted the work that you're doing, but also the work that, like, teaching assistants are doing in the classroom. Sandie [00:21:56] Well, during the first wave, I was in the building March 16th. That's when it all started coming down. And then we were told on the 17th to pack it up and go home. And then we had to report online through Zoom, Google Meet, whatever the principal decided at the time. And we had to meet every day and we tried to meet the kids that way. Some kids, I worked at that point, I was working with high school kids more, middle school, high school, and some of them were in classrooms with numbers six to two to one, four to two to one, which means they were severely impacted, emotionally disturbed. Some students needed a lot of support from adults. They were bright. Don't get me wrong, they're very, very smart kids. But they had a lot of baggage and a lot of issues. So they would come. I was working in the in-school suspension room, which is an awful nice sounding place. We called it the alternative learning environment. Kids would come to me from the entire school and get help. So now they're home. And you could see through the Zoom that some places, some kids were sleeping on couches and that's where they were trying to do their work. And they could you could hear animals, you could hear brothers and sisters, you could hear parents. It was not conducive at times. Sometimes they would shut off their camera so you couldn't see where they were, and sometimes you couldn't tell if they were really there. It was frustrating. Then when we would do some fun things on Wednesdays to try to get the kids to come and let's let's see your pets and let's we actually did a, what do you call it, like an Instagram thing where we all did, like, a crazy �dance, you know, and everybody did it and then we put it together, and then we did posters and we went to some of the home schools. And I had my husband had to videotape me doing something in front of Saratoga High School. So the kids that went to Saratoga High School would see me, you know? And we did a lot of crazy things. We visited, we did a carpool thing for graduation. We met at the Meyer Center at 7:00 in the morning and got home at 9:00 at night. We drove like over 3 or 400 miles to every kid that graduated from our program and brought them their graduation cap and gown, took pictures and did stuff. And we had a carpool with police, ambulance, you know, fire trucks and police and everything. And we just would pull up to the house and take pictures. It was always so exciting to see the kids and I would warn my husband, I think I'm going to get hugged here. So beware, you know, we were supposed to be in masks, you know, but I'm not going to tell the kid they couldn't hug me. They were so excited. Sometimes they would swear and say, "Holy blank, it's Mrs. C!" you know. And my husband was laughing. The kids were it was it was so hard, but it was so rewarding to actually have that moment with those kids. It really was. It was. Sophia [00:25:12] Yeah. It sounds like your job was getting harder, but at the same time, like, public opinion was kind of getting worse around support for teachers. Sandie [00:25:22] It was. I think the political scene was, you know, they were questioning, you know, we have the tax cap, we have things going on where, you know, money's tight. People don't want to pay taxes. That's how you fund education. It just got ugly at times. And they of course, you know, if you buy a real expensive car, you expect that car to do well. They weren't really paying for the the Cadillac. They were paying for a beat up car, and expecting Cadillac stuff. And, you know, our kids were trying really hard, the ones that could and then our kids, many of our kids really needed the physical support. They needed that person next to them. They were getting very, very sad. Public opinion, you know, test scores weren't going up. There's a lot of time competing for kids attention. That's not schoolwork. A lot of parents think the social aspect of playing soccer and being playing instruments and doing this and being in clubs, but sometimes it's just too much for kids. And the expectation from State Ed at times was kind of high. Some of the expected readings were not age appropriate for kids. Kids don't need to read some stuff about war when they're in fourth grade. I mean, the Civil War, that's one thing that was kind of whitewashed. You didn't really hear about the bloody body parts and stuff, but some of the reading that was expected for fourth graders. And we, we at the union and went to State Ed and complained that it wasn't age appropriate. Our kids couldn't wrap their minds…they weren't emotionally mature enough for some of that reading. And I think that as we grew as a society, we started forgetting what was important in education. They don't do nursery rhymes anymore. Fire alarm [00:27:26] *Fire alarm goes off* Sophia [00:27:27] So building off of your previous work, can you just give us an overview of kind of what you're doing now or if you want to talk about even what you're heading to today? Sandie [00:27:36] So right now, I am retired, after 38 years of being a teaching assistant at the Saratoga-Warren-Washington-Hamilton-Essex BOCES on Henning Road. 38 years of a lot of memories and a lot of battles, union battles, many contracts, many union positions. I'm currently the Labor Ambassador on the Executive Board of my local, which is Saratoga Adirondack BOCES Employees Association. I am also, in that capacity, I attend the Greater Capital Region Teachers Center. I am the only, was the only one ever, that's a �teaching assistant. As a policy board member, they've only ever had teachers. I am on the NYSUT board of directors. I sit on the executive board. We meet monthly with the officers and I have been on the executive board, come this spring, it will be 25 years. So that's unfounded. I mean, it's just not something normal, people, I just been very lucky. I was put on the executive board under several…most of the presidents. The first one I was, I was able to become a board member and the rest of them I've been on the executive board, which is a total honor. And I just recently, in the past couple of years was elected to the presidency of the Saratoga Area Labor Council and second vice president of the NYSUT Retiree Council Ten. So, I have a lot of hats, and I'm a grandmother of five, recently. We started to build a home on the Sacandaga, and my husband just retired. So we're, we're busy all the time. Like I said earlier today, we are, I am heading down to the Labor Temple off of Everett Road and we will be meeting with the governor, with Governor Hochul, uh, lieutenant governor, the attorney general and probably many more dignitaries, to hear her talk about why she should be elected. We…it's a no brainer if you're in education. You know, she's the one governor we have endorsed in probably, it's probably been well over 20 some years. We have not endorsed any other governor because they haven't been good for education. She has put money in education and backed us on many issues for workers in education. Sophia [00:30:32] And just kind of expanding on that, what are you hoping to see from, like, politicians in support of the work you're trying to do? Like what would be ideal for them to give you guys? Sandie [00:30:43] Well, we want to get rid of APPR. And that's you know, it's it's an evaluation tool that's kind of, not fair to teachers. Not really fair to kids either, because kids get tested and really the results don't get given to that teacher for instruction, it goes to the next teacher. And then it's sort of irrelevant at that point, you know, usually, I know when I was in school, we got a spelling test and then if we didn't do well, the teacher knew what we needed to do, to do better, you know, the next week. These tests were punitive. And I don't…I think that it's with the pandemic, kids have lost. The teachers know the kids have lost. Just like, you know, if you play a game and you didn't do 100%, nobody has to tell you you didn't give 100%. We all know kids had a hard time. There's no sense in making them feel worse. Let's, you know, we're hoping to get rid of that. We want to take care of Tier 6 for people that are in Tier 6. Uh, teachers aren't going to, kids are not going to go into education knowing that they're not going to have a decent pension. They're going to basically lose money by the time they get up in the part of the time for their retirement, they've lost money, the way Tier 6 is laid out. So we, we want to do something with Tier 6 and we want to fix, fix it so kids want to become teachers again, to get into education. It's so rewarding. And there, I think the policies now are coming out from the politicians are starting to realize how important it is. Now all of a sudden, “oh, wow, we have a bus driver shortage? Oh, wow. We have, you know, school staff, we can't get teaching assistants, we can't get teachers.” Well, maybe if you paid them and respected them and give them the supports they need, we'll have better results in school. Kids' grades will go up, because the climate, the education, climate, the environment will be better for everybody. Sophia [00:33:01] Can you tell us a little bit, I know since you've had such an extensive experience in it, it'll probably be hard to pick. But like, can you pick out some moments that were really important in your organizing work or where you felt were huge accomplishments for you guys? Sandie [00:33:19] Well, we had some, you know, a lot of fun events that the union helped me to get involved in. Like we did this book challenge. It was a truck full of 42,000 brand �new books, and it's AFT's program, First Books. And because of the position I hold, I kind of talked my president into going to NYSUT and talking to them about maybe getting some books. Well, we took the challenge. We got 20,000 signatures. We did interviews on the radio and TV, all kinds of stuff. And we ended up having Congressman Tonko and a lot of people come to our school to watch this giant truck come with, just, boxes as big as this room full of brand new books. And then what we proceeded to do, they delivered it into a bay in the career and tech end. And then all the children, we had them working, it was hysterical to see kids in hardhats, big, burly guys that normally do the heavy equipment training, were directing some of our students with disabilities, "The princess books go over there. And this is where the Tommy the Truck book goes over here." And they were helping each other. It was a blur of craziness, but it was all orchestrated. Kids were making boxes, kids were doing this, staff was helping. Some of the kids were running, you know, a forklift outside and taking boxes up to the cafeteria where we had all, everything labeled and out. We had retired librarians, we had the police department, we had the servicemen from the Navy. We had all kinds of people in the community come and help sort books. Our culinary department made sandwiches because this took a week to sort all those books. And then when the day came, when they came to come get their books, I had teachers sitting on the floor, not much older than you guys, sitting on the floor in tears, getting new books to take back to their classrooms because there was no books for the kids. I had little kids coming and taking bags of books and, so excited…the books were heavier than they were, but they were taking books home for their sisters and brothers. And I finally went in to watch and I was teary eyed because I was busy doing other things. We had a rocking chair set up for Congressman Tonko to read to some of the kids. And it was an amazing accomplishment. My superintendent, Jim Dexter, at the time, was very supportive. He gave me six days to do this. I got my regular pay. I was the person, the person in charge, the logistics person. Don't ever accept that job. It's brutal. Brutal. And we just…I wore a Wonder Woman cape, and the kids loved it because I met them at the door and they go "Where we flying to!" I said "Down the hall!" And we gave him breakfasts and pizzas and stuff. And it was, it was a highlight. It was amazing to see. We did a lot of organizing for it and it was positive. There was times that we also had to go, you know, walk a picket line. And that's, that's a different kind of feeling. You know, and hopefully, like we just went to Starbucks. My husband and I went down to Starbucks and I wore my union shirt. And on the back it says, vote yes for the union, check yes. And I walked around the Starbucks store quite a bit with the shirt on. And then when I ordered my drink, I said, they said, "Well, who…what name?" And I said, "Say yes to the union, Sandy." So they had to yell it out. And they did. And the kids were excited, the workers. And they did vote yes, they did consolidate. They did, with the union. So, we've had a lot of young people start realizing that what their grandparents had is what they want. They want a pension. We always thought that the younger folks were looking for the big bucks and not thinking about their future later. But in talking to some of the kids from Starbucks who are going on to college and, you know, working there, too, they said, no, we want what you have: a pension. We want to be able to work at a job safely. We want to be able to have rights. And we like our job. We actually love doing what we do, but we don't want to do it unsafe and we want to do, we want to have a pension when we're done. So it's enlightening to me to hear that. And it's heartening. It feels really good to know that the kids are getting it. And I think with our president that we have now, he's a labor guy. You know, he's definitely trying. All we can do is hope that Americans come together and, you know, labor built this country. Let's hope we can keep it going. And I'm always here. Just tell me where. *laughs* �Sophia [00:38:38] Yeah. Wow. Well, what do you think is important going forward then for people, both organizers and kind of the general public, to kind of get things to where we want them to be for your field. Sandie [00:38:53] You have to listen to each other. You really have to listen because, yes, there's people that are pro-choice and, you know, anti this and pro that. We lost a big thing this year. We lost Roe. You know that Roe v. Wade is going to forever make me cry because it that was something that my kids and you kids had and now it's been taken away. My granddaughters won't have that. We have to start finding ways to communicate with those that are totally against something and some people that are totally for and find some kind of middle ground. That's what the union always did. We tried to do a win-win thing. We tried to make it, you know, give a little take a little. But today, it seems like it's all out war against the middle class. And we need to really look at the unions, go back, see what we did, see how we built this country. You know, with the infrastructure, everything we have to start protecting our water, protecting our air, protecting the rights of each individual to their own body. I mean, really think about it. I, I'd love to see what some of these men that are making the rules for women would consider if they were told they had to have something done so they couldn't…stop having babies, or they you know, I mean, they don't even like to have vasectomies. They get all freaked out, think about it. And yet they want us to give birth. What if you really, really don't want to experience that and then you're forced and especially with children. I guess that's huge right now. It's the personal bodily privileges that we, myself, as a woman that is on in age and I have no problem saying I'm 73. I could utilize and have an abortion if I needed it. Maybe it wasn't something I would have done, but I had the right to do it. I don't want less for my children and my grandchildren. And I think that unions have to step up. And we are. We have a Women's Committee at my local and we have a Women's Union Committee at the state level and at the national levels. And we are fighting, fighting hard. And I know there's a lot of men that are behind us and standing beside us. So that and we have to do something to recruit and retain teachers and people to work in education and in hospitals, because hospitals are under attack, too, with this Roe v. Wade. Doctors, nurses. So we have a lot to do, a lot of work. And because I am 73, I'm expecting you guys to step up. So I'll be there beside you. But someone's going to have to carry the flag at some point. So thank you. Sophia [00:41:53] Can you talk a little bit more about I had watched an interview with you where you talked about how working on an LGBT task force had kind of impacted your work as well. And now you're talking about like the intersection of, like, women's rights, too, with labor rights and what you've noticed in your work with those kind of things. Sandie [00:42:13] Okay. So our union, NYSUT, has an LGBTQIA committee, and it consists of teachers and union people in schools, higher ed custodians. There's a swath of everybody. And we come together virtually and in person and we have meetings and we talk about different things that legislation and issues that pertain to same-sex marriages, gender identity, gender identification and expression, gender neutral bathrooms, all kinds of issues that prep and things that everyday human beings, and that's what we are. Doesn't matter whether I identify as a male, female or non-gender. We all have certain rights and should be able to express and feel safe in those environments, whether at school or at a hospital and we're treated correctly. I had a cousin that was gay, and he was horribly treated back in high school. He went on to go out to California in the seventies when that whole thing came about. He developed AIDS later in life and he passed away. So it's my way of helping my cousin that was older than me. You know, I try to step up for him through this committee. We've done a lot of work. We had a book tasting and that was all books around how to talk from a toddler up. You know, like, I'm a yellow crayon and I �want to be a blue crayon. And you know, all these different books; Josie, all these different books that have titles that, you know, "I Have Two Mommies" or "I Have Two Daddies" or 'I Have a Blended Family" books to help kids. And what we did was we had them all around in a room, we had food, and you could go taste the books, look at what they were about. And then we had QR codes next to them with a curriculum attached, so a teacher could take that book and do a lesson around it if they chose to do that. We took some of the books to different events, too. I teach a workshop on LGBTQ, you know, safe schools, and we hand out books there, too, so teachers can take them and help their kids. So, it's just more work that I love. We, I recently went to the Latino... I don't know the title of the place, but it was in Albany and it was a center for all people that needed help. And mostly people that speak different languages come. And we did a culturally responsive food pantry. Our union put it together and we gave out books that were in Spanish. And we did a food pantry where one adult could come through with a cart and pick up food that was something that they would eat. You know, we have a lot of these drive thru food things, lots of them because of the pandemic. We realized that some of the folks that are getting peanut butter and jelly and canned chicken and canned SpaghettiOs, they're from Colombia, they're from South America. They don't know what to do with peanut butter and jelly. They don't know what to do with a canned chicken, or canned ham. It's not something that they worked with. So in this culturally responsive pantry, we had dried beans, we had canned salmon. They like that. And there was a lot of eggs and chicken and food that they could use, fresh vegetables, stuff that they knew and would cook. And it was... It brought a tear to your eye to see these families coming and getting this food and actually being vulnerable, to say, "I need help, I can't feed my family." We…I don't speak Spanish. You folks should learn another language. And I'm sure you are. I, I wasn't good at it, and I just gave it up, but I wish I did. But the language of love and caring came through, and we all could get along. And I understood what they needed, and they knew I wanted to give them what I could. And it was, even my husband was totally blown away with that activity. Our union does a lot. We also had hygiene kits put together: toothbrushes and combs and toothpaste and soap and shampoo and comb in Ziploc bags. And they took them. They needed them. That's an activity you guys could do from school. You could always get a hold of me and you could come and help at that place any time any kids wanted to do some civil and human rights kind of work. You can always reach out to NYSUT. We have higher ed folks there and myself and we do a lot of that. So I love my union because of that. Sophia [00:47:35] Yeah, that's really incredible work that you guys are doing. Sandie [00:47:38] Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Sophia [00:47:39] It sounds like so much of what you do is just born out of, like, a genuine love for your community and working with these kids. And that's really important. Sandie [00:47:47] It is. It is. I did not want to leave this earth without having an impact on the greater good, you know? Yeah, I could go out and leave a chunk of money for my grandkids, and I will. But the bottom line is, I want to make it a better place. I don't want to destroy. I try to do everything you're supposed to. I think my kids, they're grown. They know what I do. They were there when I got a legacy award. I've been given awards through the teacher union, NYSUT. I was School-Related Professional of the year. I was given the Albert Shanker Award at the American Federation of Teachers. I was up for the National Education Association's award for the ESP of the year. There's hundreds of people that get put in, but just being nominated for those positions shows that you can, you can impact a lot of people by just doing something from your heart and asking �questions, listening to people. What do they need? The big impact that I heard and I heard a lot was don't presume, you know, what a poor or disadvantaged family needs. You need to ask them. Ask them what their needs are. Pay attention, listen, because maybe it's a coat or maybe you gave them a coat and all they really wanted was a bag of beans and some rice and some money towards heat or help with getting a car so they could go to work. You know, we have to listen to the people in our communities. We can't just judge or go in and think we're going to take over. There's a lot of these associations now, you know, that are being like, I know Albany's got a citizens' group together. They want to be heard. "Don't come in and tell us what our community needs." So as young people, always ask before you presume that someone needs something, you know, ask, "What can we do? What do you need from us?" And listen. And sometimes they're, they could be embarrassed and they might not…so if you listen and let them just talk, they'll tell you a lot. Sophia [00:50:04] So well. It's been amazing to hear about everything you're doing, but before we wrap up with the interview, I just want to ask if there's anything else that we didn't ask that you wanted to add about what you're doing. Sandie [00:50:16] I think that, as I do my daily job as a retiree, every weekend I'm busy. I find things that we need to get done through some of the committees I do. And like tonight, I'm going to go see, you know, the governor. And I'll have a meeting Wednesday night with the labor council and there's phone banking. There's always something to be done to try to make the world a little better place. Find a place that you feel comfortable in helping. Listen to people. Give back where you can. And it comes back, like my husband used to be a little, can I say, cheap or tight? And he'd see me give $10 to something or do something. And I…and then one day, you know, I won something. He goes, "You always win." I say, "But I always give." And then it seems to come back in a different way. Sometimes it's just a big thank you or an award, but it's, it's not something I worked to get. I work because it gives me inner satisfaction. And that's what you need to find. As college kids, you need to find what makes you tick, what you're good at, and I hope it's something to do with labor. I hope it's something to do with the greater community. I have a feeling it will be if you're taking this course. Sophia [00:51:40] I mean, after this interview. Yeah. Sandie [00:51:43] Thanks a lot for having me here. Sophia [00:51:45] Oh, it was amazing. Thank you so much for coming. But I think we're good to... Max [00:51:50] I think so, too. Thank you for your participation. Sandie [00:51:52] Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Max Chelso '24 and Sophie Delohery '25 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sandie Carner-Shafran Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 51:56 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Eric Morser Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit August 11, 2023 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sandie Carner-Shafran Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 2, 2022 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Description An account of the resource I worked for 38 years for the Saratoga Warren Hamilton Essex Boces as a Teacher Aide and then a Certified Teaching Assistant. I recently retired and currently serve on the Executive Board of my Local union as the Labor Ambassador & Co-Chair of our Saratoga Adirondack Boces Employees Association Women’s Committee, Second VP of the New York State Teachers Union Retiree Council 10, President of the Saratoga Labor Council and The Greater Capital Region Teacher Center Policy BOD member. I continue to be involved serving on various Steering Committees at NYSUT. Union For Life in my motto! Language A language of the resource English (en) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/a275d8c7a87173af01059cdbe36b3fc3.jpg a074bd82cd05aa4316f3a5d3e91b2afb https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/2fbc252c5aea73bfa9ed2151f69f7657.m4a 74ebdcb5df6115f9bc3ed3b6e4d2984f https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/1159c2c8043b62d63f9aab6a77bd4e11.pdf 234c4fd7be4fa9d5320561ed29b0f5cb PDF Text Text Interviewee: Sandra “Sandy” Welter Years at Skidmore: 1984 - 2017 Interviewer: Lynne Gelber Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: 4/21/2022 00:00:00 Header 00:00:28 Raised East Haven, CT; 1st in family to attend college. After Elmira College graduation in 1971, married & moved to Ballston Spa so husband could work at Skidmore. 00:02:05 Next, earned Masters in English & a permanent teaching certification (SUNY Albany). 00:02:30 Then, taught Saratoga Springs Jr. High/7-9th grade writing to atypical students; developed a creative curriculum featuring special projects — unusual at that level in 1970s. 00:03:25 Paused teaching to have 2 children; wanted to return to teaching part time, but the public school administration was “… just not there yet in terms of …” the job-sharing concept. 00:04:19 Therefore, became curriculum developer and director of the Beagle School and created programs for the public schools Gifted and Talented program while also caring for young sons. 00:04:49 In early 1980s was recuperating from a stroke when friend Bob Miner invited Welter to observe his class at Correctional Facility in Comstock, NY, part of Skidmore’s University Without Walls program. Welter loved it; Director Bob Van Meter invited Welter to teach. 00:08:57 The Comstock students were “intensely interested … they were connecting what they were reading in ways that … I was not used to with younger students. [I] found it extremely stimulating and I thought, ‘I think I could make a difference here. I think I can help.’ ” 00:09:55 Program expanded to include a second correctional facility, over 40 faculty, classes four nights a week, almost 200 students involved, many graduates. 00:10:30 Welter’s role expanded to include advising on curriculum, helping develop final projects, running a skills lab in math, writing and reading, and then being the Director. 00:11:15 Gov. Pataki (elected 1995) removed all of the funding; Welter still ran program for nearly two years, with volunteer teachers and extra books, but then it closed. 00:12:33 Welter stayed on as a UWW advisor for regular, on campus, students. 00:13:00 New Masters of Arts Liberal Studies (MALS) program created, in 1997 Welter joined. 00:13:40 Skidmore, one of earliest MALS programs, attracted students from all over the world. 00:15:30 In the early 2000s, greater pressure on faculty to publish and serve on committees led to decline in faculty participation in MALS, so MALS closed. 00:18:28 Welter granted administrative sabbatical to go to China; “Taught English composition to junior level university students who were being trained as English teachers in China.” 00:19:08 Skidmore had a formal arrangement with the University of Qufu for many years. Initially established by Murray Levith; Skidmore graduates and faculty went to teach there. 00:19:48 “A wonderful year experience. Incredible. And lifelong friends — I’m still in communication with several of my students there and a couple of the faculty who I taught with.” 00:20:04 Welter taught English composition (103, 105) for last four years working at Skidmore. 00:20:30 Skidmore was “… an institution that always seemed to be able to look outside the box, and I am an educator who was always looking outside the box.” 00:20:56 Because Welter ran programs, biggest challenge was nurturing faculty interest in them. 00:21:43 “Murray left the China program and I took on the directorship until it closed.” �00:22:07 “When we first started, there were … no Western influences in the Chinese university system. … By the time we left, the universities were able to train their own teachers to come back and do the work that we were doing, and very well, actually.” 00:23:10 “I actually had thirty three years of bliss! [laughs] I hardly had any problems at all other than struggling to make sure that we had interesting and new and exciting faculty always working with our students.” 00:23:32 Fondest memories? “Mostly center around the students. … Because I dealt with so many different kinds of students at Skidmore.” 00:23:55 At end of Skidmore career, teaching in the English Department was also a positive experience, “…wonderful to watch them come into their own…” 00:24:15 Had ESL experience so worked with international students & HEOP students. 00:25:12 Taught Summer Institute for many years, teaching extra skills to prepare students for Skidmore. “So I guess the students were, are kind of my central focus.” 00:26:15 Also had wonderful colleagues at UWW, MALS, and in the English Department. 00:28:14 “Skidmore went co-ed right when we arrived. And so the men who were at Skidmore [explained in counseling that] their problem was that they were not getting enough food. So Bob, my husband, had to go to the dining services and explain to the little old ladies who were working in the dining facilities that they needed to give the boys more food!” 00:28:55 “And that seemed to me like such an innocent kind of kind issue to be dealing with in the early days at Skidmore” compared to the complicated issues students face now. 00:29:40 Dining was not buffet; was served family style, but not enough for the men’s appetites. 00:30:10 Also, the beds were too short! Led to sore backs and hurt knees “because they were scrunched into these little beds.” “Growing pains” that Skidmore needed to address. 00:30:55 In 1971, classes had moved up to the new campus, but students still lived on the old campus in town, including Moore Hall, “the big ‘Pink Palace.’ ” 00:31:44 A years-long transition process for the old Skidmore campus. Many buildings, now homes and apartments, still have the Skidmore names. Empire State College also owns some. 00:33:20 First experience of Saratoga Springs was so dreary, Welter hoped her soon-to-behusband would not get the job, but he did, and “…here I am 50 years later, very, very happy.” 00:36:51 Welter arrived in China in August 2001, so was teaching in China on 9/11. “I didn’t come back at all during the whole time I was in China; … A year later [I] found that, coming onto campus, … I was going through what everyone went through the year before.” 00:38:28 Different presidents … Joe Palamountain, David Porter, Jamienne Studley, Phil Glotzbach. “David … he was one of the most remarkable human beings. … He always remembered my name. … He came to every department … and sat in everybody’s office and wanted to talk to you. And he came into my teeny little closet of an office in UWW and wanted to know all about it, with huge enthusiasm, and caring and kindness!” 00:40:00 Over the years, faculty regularly raised questions about curriculum, issues of diversity and inclusion, the role of a liberal arts college in the world, how to stay relevant — “I was glad that Skidmore was asking those questions, … I think it kept Skidmore viable and fresh and … I was always impressed with their sincerity and seriousness about our role, our job, as educators.” 00:41:35 END � https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/41a4b4a33275503c3fda918082ab710c.pdf 5afbdc93158b15d8191ceef9f191d82e PDF Text Text Interview with Sandra “Sandy” Welter by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, April 21, 2022, Saratoga Springs, NY. LYNNE GELBER: This is Lynne Gelber for the Oral History Project of the Retirees, and I am with Sandy Welter. It’s April 21st, 2022, and … Sandy, why don’t you tell us a little bit about where you grew up, and … SANDY WELTER: Sure. Thank you so much for inviting me to this exciting project! I grew up in southern Connecticut, outside New Haven, in a small working-class town called East Haven. My Mom and Dad were factory workers, I was the first in my family to go to college. So, it was a big deal when I went off to Elmira. I went as far as I possibly could from my hometown — I was accepted at Conn College and at U Conn and several other closer colleges and universities, but I really was a … had wanderlust, and I wanted to get as far away as I could, because we never really travelled very far. So I went to Elmira, out in the western part of New York State, got a very, very good education. Went junior year abroad, so I studied at the University of Leicester in England. Met wonderful international students there, was planning on returning to England to do graduate work in linguistics. But, when I returned to Elmira in my senior year, I met my future husband, who was teaching at the college. And so, after I graduated in 1971, I immediately got married and he got a job as the first Director of the Counseling Center at Skidmore College, so my … the day after I was married, having no honeymoon, we actually came to Saratoga Springs and moved into our apartment in Ballston Spa. My husband at the time started his job, and I applied to the graduate program at SUNY Albany, and I got in. And that started my future here in Skidmore. LG: And the graduate program was in …? SW: I was in English and Secondary Education. So, I did a masters in English with a focus in Secondary Ed — so I got both a Masters in English as well as a permanent teaching certification. So, the first seven years after my graduate degrees at SUNY Albany, I taught in the Saratoga Springs public �schools. I was in the Junior High School. I taught 7th, 8th and 9th grade, and I taught writing, most particularly. I also taught more — I taught both, two extremes. I taught all of the Junior High School kids who were kicked out of all their other English classes, ended up in my class, and I also taught all the gifted kids who were bored in their classes. So I developed a journalism class, we developed a newspaper in the journalism class. This was all stuff, in the early ’70s, that didn’t happen. It didn’t happen in the Junior High. We did music analysis, we did a newspaper, we did … you know, we did all kinds of things. And so, I had a lovely five years in the public schools, and then I had my children. I tried to go back to the Junior High because I was very happy teaching in the secondary school. I was tenured at that time public school tenured. But I only wanted to work part time because I had two young children at home. And that was early 1978, ’79, and the administration in the public schools were just not there yet in terms of being able to figure out how one could job-share. I was suggesting, there must be another woman — again, very sexist, but it was — well there must be another woman who wants to job share, so I would work part time and this person would work part time and we would cover all of the needs of the institution. “Nope.” So, I said “fine” and I walked away from my teaching position there. I then was a curriculum developer and a director of the Beagle School, which was an independent nursery school and kindergarten. I worked for the Gifted and Talented program in the school district, the whole district, and I developed programs there, all the while taking care of my younger … my growing sons. Um, in early … in the early ’80s, a friend of mine approached me. I had had a serious medical problem. I had actually had a stroke. With two young children. And I was recuperating at home and quite depressed because I was afraid to do anything. And this gentleman came in to visit and he said, “You know, I think that you should come up … there’s this program that I just started teaching in at Skidmore. You might be really interested - you could be, I think you would be great at this,” and it was … LG: Who was that? �SW: That was Bob Miner, and he was suggesting that I come up and observe his class at Comstock. And he wanted to know if I would be interested in teaching in the Skidmore prison program through University Without Walls. And I, at that point, was looking for a new lease on life, really. I was looking for a new focus. It was one day a week, you know I thought, “This is perfect for me.” It was getting me involved. I had been doing some part-time work for the University Without Walls with many of their adult learners — I was doing prep, composition prep for many of their international students. They had Qatari businessmen who were coming to get their UWW degrees, and when they came to Skidmore they were working on their final projects, and so I worked, I did a lot of work with them in terms of editing and writing and communicating and helping them to get a more academic spin on their final projects in writing. So, I was … LG: Who connected you to UWW? SW: Um, I think … hmm, who connected me? Maybe, um, Mark Gelber? Maybe Barry Targan, maybe … I mean, these were all friends I knew through Sam and Bev Mastrianni, and so they were people in the community but they were also very Skidmore connected. And then I met Bob Van Meter and he heard that I had been doing work with writing and remediation with writing, … LG: At the prison? SW: At … well, in the community. I was doing some community work, and he heard that. And then when Bob Miner recommended me, he said, “Oh I’ve heard of this person.” And I went and I met with Bob Van Meter … LG: Who was, at that time? SW: He was, at that time, the Director of UWW. And then met Larry Ries, who �was the Assistant Director, and Ken Klotz who was the … um, Director of the Prison Program at the time. LG: When was this? SW: Early … it was, um … 1988 maybe? Something like that. LG: Ok. SW: As it turns out, I … actually went up with Bob Miner to observe his class at Comstock, at Great Meadow, the maximum-security prison, and I loved it. I came back and said … LG: And the guys must have loved it too. SW: Well, I mean I sat in the back of the room, didn’t say a word, I just watched, and it was … I thought, this … because these … these inmates, these students, were like sponges! They wanted to know everything, they were so intensely interested in everything they were reading and everything they were writing. They were connecting — because they were adults, they were connecting what they were reading in ways that were so unique, that I was not used to with younger students. And I just found it extremely stimulating and I thought, “I think I could make a difference here. I think I can help.” So, I went back and I talked to Bob Van Meter and he said, “You want to do a comp course?” And I said, “Sure, I’ll do, I can do a basic comp course, I can do a second, you know, like the 103 and the 105, equivalent to what we were doing on campus.” And I did that, and, in fact, we expanded during the next ten years into Washington Correctional Facility and so we had two programs, we ran faculty up to the prisons, those prisons, four nights a week. We had over 40 faculty hired every semester to teach up there. We had, you know, more, almost 200 students involved in the program, many graduates each year, and it was a really dynamic part of the Skidmore community. LG: And your role expanded? �SW: It did. So I went from teaching just the comp courses to becoming a full time advisor up there. So I was doing advising on curriculum, I was helping develop final projects, I was running a skills lab and we set up a computer lab up there so I was doing a lot of basic skills in math and in writing and in reading. And eventually I was asked to take on the Directorship. And so, the last four years of the program I was the … LG: This would be…? SW: Around … we closed the prison program because of lack of funding. If you remember, Governor Pataki came on board and the very first thing he did after he was elected was to close down all of the college prison programs in the state of New York. So, he removed all the funding, closed all the programs down, said this was not, you know, “state TAP money and federal Pell money was not going to educate inmates.” And so, he pulled all of the funding, and because of that, we ran our program with volunteers. Our faculty went up there voluntarily. We had extra books that we could use until they all ran out, and I ran the program for almost two years after that, on a voluntary basis. Um, we weren’t giving credit because we couldn’t, but we were up there still involved with the students who were our students, until we couldn’t any more. And that was between the years of about 1988 to 1998. I think we closed the prison program in about 1998 or 1999. So, then I’m … now I'm at Skidmore, having spent 10 years in UWW, not as much, certainly not much time on campus, I spent most of my time up at the prison. Um … and the question was, “What now?” And so I stayed on as a UWW advisor for regular students for a couple of years, and then, the masters program conception was being developed through Larry Ries and the state of New York and a variety of other people. Lots of support, I think … LG: That’s the Master of Arts in Liberal Studies? SW: That’s correct, thank you Lynne, a Masters of Arts in Liberal Studies. It’s an �interdisciplinary degree so the framework of this graduate degree was to, in fact, bring in at least two disciplines in to the, sort of, core curricular components. And that was unusual at the time. There were several MALS programs across the country, we were one of the earliest and we were also part of the national organization, the Consortium of MALS programs, and that’s in two thousand and something … um, no, I don’t have the dates, but we hosted the national convention here in Saratoga, at Skidmore. We housed everybody at the Gideon Putnam, we had our sessions there … we couldn’t have them on campus because there wasn’t enough room … It’s a national, we had a lot of people coming in. We had several hundred people here, so … . And we had keynote speakers and we had themes and, you know, so it was a … Skidmore was very involved in the Master of Arts in Liberal Studies movement. We had graduates who came to us through the UWW program but also from other places, so most of our MALS students were graduates of other institutions from around the world and around the country. And they had a residency, but it was only a one month — a one-week residency — and then another two or three days at the end to have their final projects approved. So, they didn’t have to be on this campus, so we had students all over the country, and the world, actually. Um, so that was a great next step for me at Skidmore. MALS was a great deal of fun, and it grew into a very viable program. Um, the fabric of the college began to change in the early 2000s. And faculty who used to, either because of a need, a desire to, explore pedagogies with other kinds of students other than 18 to 21 year olds, or, because they had particular interests that were not necessarily — did not necessarily fit in to an undergraduate curriculum, they were really very interested in teaching at the UWW and the MALS program. They loved to teach there, they liked the kind of students, they liked the diversity of subject matter, they liked the depth of inquiry that happened at the graduate level. But … and for many, in the early days, it was a very helpful bump in their salaries. I mean, we did pay well and we paid in addition to their Skidmore salary and in the early days of Skidmore, you know, people, faculty, didn’t make a lot of money, so it was a good way of supplementing. By the time the programs were, the UWW, closed and MALS was still involved, faculty had a different agenda. �They really needed to publish, they needed to publish, publish, publish, they needed to be on committees here on campus. Um, more so, I think, than maybe in the past. I don’t know because as an administrator I didn’t, I was on committees but I didn’t have the requirements of that. So, it was more and more difficult to get faculty to help, to be faculty advisors, to supervise independent studies, to oversee final projects or theses, and it got to the point where, I think, Larry Ries, the Director, and some of the later Directors of the Masters’ Program, had to ask, is this really now the mission of the college? And I think eventually the answer was, “No.” It was not. So, the Masters’ Program closed, um … LG: Do you remember the year that it closed? SW: Oh, you know, I … I don’t. I came into the Masters’ Program in 1997 and I retired from it … so, whenever … (uh no, I didn’t because they closed) before I retired. Because then I went on to the English Department and I taught in the English Department full time. So, yeah, and in between there I went to China! [laughs] I nearly forgot to tell you about China! I took a sabbatical, I took an administrative sabbatical, and …while MALS was still running, but when it was struggling, and I was feeling a little frustrated and working very hard and not being able to get much support, and I finally decided, “I think I may need a break.” So, I asked for an administrative sabbatical for a year, I was granted one, and through Murray Levith, I went to the University of Qufu in Shandong Province in China, and I taught English composition to junior level university students who were being trained as English teachers in China. LG: Now did Skidmore have a formal …? SW: Yes, we had a formal arrangement with the University of Qufu, for many years. Initially established by Murray Levith and then we had graduates of Skidmore as well as faculty who went to, over, every year, to teach there. Doretta Miller taught there, Murray Levith taught there, I taught … I think Marty Canavan in the Business Department taught there, and probably �several other people. Lots of graduates of Skidmore College went over and taught as well. So that was a wonderful year experience. Incredible. And lifelong friends — I’m still in communication with several of my students there and a couple of the faculty who I taught with. So. Yeah, so I actually retired … after UWW and MALS and China, I went to the English Department full time, at the very end of my career, and taught composition, English 103, English 105, for the last four years of my Skidmore career. So … and that was great. So I was, I kind of came back to a very traditional academic environment. I’ve had a very storied experience at Skidmore and I thank Skidmore for that, because they were an institution that always seemed to be able to look outside the box, and I am an educator who was always looking outside the box. LG: So, what do you think your greatest challenges were? During all those years? SW: Hmm, well, probably … because I was in the administration, per se, having always done, had to run a program, whether it was UWW or MALS or China, I think it was just … nurturing, my biggest challenge was always nurturing support from the faculty. That was a big job of mine, always. Um, new faculty — I would go to new faculty receptions all the time, introduce them to the MALS program, to the University Without Walls, to the China program, because, again, that was where, possibly, faculty would be interested — I was, by the way, Murray left the China program and I took on the directorship until it closed. The Universities were now, Universities in China were, now having, had enough of their own graduates who could then come back and teach in their institutions. When we first started, there were very few Western, - no Western influences in the Chinese university system, so … we were kind of on the, we and Yale were the two institutions, Skidmore and Yale were the two institutions that were in China at the very early days. Umm, before Tiananmen, you know, during that period. By the time we left, the universities were able to train their own teachers to come back and do the work that we were doing, and very well, actually. So, I guess my biggest challenge was always nurturing faculty interest in these kinds of — I don’t want to ever use the word marginal, but certainly the more peripheral … not necessarily the central mission of a small �undergraduate liberal arts college. I was always doing work in areas that were slightly, um, different in definition of that core mission. So that was my major struggle. I actually had thirty-three years of bliss! [laughs] I hardly had any problems at all other than struggling to make sure that we had interesting and new and exciting faculty always working with our students. LG: So, what are your fondest memories? SW: Ah, fondest memories … mostly center around the students. I mean, I … because I had, because I dealt with so many different kinds of students at Skidmore — I mean, I dealt with the traditional, you know, 18 to 21 yearolds at the very end of my career at Skidmore, when I was teaching in the English Department, and those students were fabulous! I loved them! I always taught freshmen … freshmen or sophomores, and so they were always a little green and they were always a little bewildered and it was always wonderful to watch them come into their own, because they would stop in my office four years later, as seniors, and here were these fabulous grown-up young men and women who made me proud! I worked with a lot of the international students at Skidmore, so … LG: What did you do with them? SW: Again, ESL work. I did a lot of personal, my own personal ESL training, and then brought that to some of my writing courses. So, I did a lot of work with the international students and a lot of work with the HEOP [Opportunity Program] students, who were coming to Skidmore from, um … underprepared, underpreparing High Schools. They were very smart men and women, very, very smart, but their basic skills were not as strong as the kids coming out of, like, Country Day School, you know, or some of the great prep schools that our students come from. So, these young men and women needed a little bit of a leg up, and I taught in the summer, to the …yup, I taught in the HEOP Summer Institute for many years. �LG: That’s the Higher Education Opportunity Program. SW: That’s, thank you, it is the Higher Education Opportunity Program, of which Skidmore had, still has, I’m assuming, a very important program, a very important branch in the both state and federal level of Higher Education Opportunity Program. So, I taught in the Summer Institute for many years, doing a kind of “Boot Camp” with them so that when they came in September they would be prepared, more prepared than they would have been had they just spent the summer at home and then gotten out of their high schools and come to Skidmore. It would have been a bit of a, not only a culture shock but an intellectual shock for them. So, they were able to, we would do, you know, reading skills and study skills and some of the basic cultural experiences of what it was like to experience college in the classroom as well as in the dormitory. So, I did all of that, as well, in the summer. So, I guess the students were, are kind of my central focus. I had wonderful colleagues, both at UWW and MALS, and in the English Department. Again, that was a plus as well. LG: Ok. Are there other things that we didn’t cover? SW: Let’s see, talked about China, my sabbatical, umm, … I don’t know, I mean, it feels like I, … I mean I had such a rich experience at Skidmore, and I … LG: You talked about some of the changes… SW: Yeah, I mean there’s … LG: Can you expand on that? SW: Yeah, sure. When I, I mean … this will be a story that will be interesting to consider what, in terms of change … When I first came to Saratoga, I was not involved. I mean, I was in graduate school, my then husband was the Counseling Director at Skidmore. And, of course, I didn’t … and I met lots of Skidmore faculty through that, we were the young couple, you know, the new young couple at Skidmore, back in the day when those — they were �new young couples who would show up every year and we were it. So, we went to lots of parties and met with lots of faculty, all of whom were extremely warm and very welcoming. I was in graduate school so I didn’t have a lot of connection to Skidmore, but my husband would … of course, being in the Counseling Center, couldn’t talk about his discussions, although, at one time he did share something, which I thought was classic. And, of course it was because he had to share it with the larger Skidmore community, and he said, “Well, Sandy, the boys…” This was when Skidmore went co-ed. Because Skidmore went co-ed right when we arrived. And so the men who were at Skidmore had just started to arrive, and they were in classes, and they would come to the Counseling Center and they would sit down, and, in the Counseling session, their problem was that they were not getting enough food. So, Bob, my husband, had to go to the dining services and explain to the little old ladies who were working in the dining facilities that they needed to give the boys more food. And Bob said, that seems to be the major problem [laughs] that I’m dealing with in the Counseling Center right now is that the men are not getting enough to eat. And that seemed to me like such an innocent, kind of kind issue to be dealing with in the early days at Skidmore. And when I think now about all of the issues that our students face, the complicated issues of, you know, relationships and gender identity and issues of drugs and alcohol and all the stuff that face our students now, it seemed like that was an awfully innocent time when I first got here, to be thinking that these poor men needed to get more food. [laughs] LG: This was at a time when there were not, it was not buffet, in the dining hall. SW: No, they sat and they had to be given food, that was not buffet, absolutely. This was early days when you sat — dressed, you got dressed — and you sat in the dining hall and the food would come and it’d be in family style and there’d be a little bit, and by the time the men got the food, there wasn’t anything left! And they were being, you know, they were starving! [laughs] So … �LG: Were there also complaints about the beds? SW: Oh, the beds were too short! Beds were much too short, and now the … every guy was like, walking around with a sore back and hurt knees because they were scrunched into these little beds. Yeah, there was all these things that Skidmore needed to … there were growing pains, that’s… LG: Did they hang out the sheets? Out the windows, to complain? SW: Oh, I don’t remember that! Oh, I don’t remember that, no, that must be somebody else’s story. All I remember is the story about the food. LG: Yeah, the trustees were on campus. SW: Oh, no kidding! Oh, that’s funny. Yeah. Um, so, you know, I think that’s, just the … and of course, when we first came, when I came to Skidmore, we were still on the old campus. There were still half of … the busses were still going from Moore Hall, the big, the “Pink Palace,” from Moore Hall to Johnson Campus, because there were still classes going on down in the old campus. Which, that, within two or three years … well, not, no, not the residences… . Classes moved, almost always, all up to the new campus, but the residence halls, Moore Hall, still used, still was functioning, for many, many years, until they finally built enough dormitories for all of the students to … LG: So, did that impact what you were doing? SW: Um, no. No, it did not. I mean, I just, it was just an interesting transition and it was one in which, for someone who was also involved, because I was teaching, I knew the community, the Saratoga community, having been a teacher, I was very involved in many of the Saratoga projects. I worked on the Art in the Park project and many of the other kind of community-based projects for kids in town. It was interesting to see what Saratoga was going to do vis-a-vis the Skidmore, old Skidmore campus. And that was an interesting conversation for many years. Actually … well, not anymore, but �was for many years, as to what to do with those buildings, how to best repurpose them, were we going to tear — should they be torn down? Et cetera, et cetera. Verrazzano College, which no longer exists, bought most of the old campus … LG: That was Verrazzano? SW: Yeah, that was Verrazzano, and they set up a college, just where the old Skidmore campus was, but they did not last, and therefore many of the buildings were sold to private individuals. And so, we now see that, if you go on the east side, many of the old Skidmore buildings, even with the Skidmore names on them, are now either private residences or apartments, et cetera. And now Empire State has taken over many of those buildings, those buildings as well. So, there’s been a lot of change. When I, the day that I came to Saratoga, … in 1970, March … no, March of 1971, I was not yet married, I was engaged to be married in July, and my soon-to-be husband was up here for an interview for this job at the Counseling Center, and I came up to see what, if we got this, if he got this job, where we would live and what would be, where I would be. And it was March! And we all know what Saratoga looks like in March. It’s muddy, it’s gray, it’s dirty, there’s old snow everywhere, and in 1971, three quarters of Broadway was barricaded. There was … no stores. They were papered over … there was the Church Street News, the Farmer’s Hardware, Glickman’s Store, General Store, and that’s about it. There was very, very little, in terms of … LG: How about antique stores? SW: No, that was Ballston Spa that had, I mean, we had a lot of just open store fronts, barren open store fronts. Um, and I sat in the Red Barn, I don’t know … you won’t remember the Red Barn. The Red Barn used to be where Fingerpaint is now, which used to be where Borders was. While my soon-tobe husband was in his interview with Claire Olds and, … LG: Who was then Dean of…? �SW: She was Dean of the Students, because he had to meet with her regarding the Counseling Center, and then he met with President Palamountain and he met with Dr. Mastrianni, who was doing partial counseling work at the time. And I sat in the Red Barn and was looking … thought, well I could go up and down Broadway, I could go in the shops, I can see what’s going on … Hmmnn. [laughs] Nope! There was nothing! It was freezing, it was cold, it was dreary, I sat in the Red Barn drinking a cup of very bad coffee thinking, “Please don’t get this job! Please don’t get this job! This place is horrible! Oh, my goodness!” And he came out of that and he got the job and here we are, here I am 50 years later. Very, very happy. Happily, Skidmore was a huge part of that happiness, and I raised my two children here and they had a fabulous education in the public schools and went on … LG: What year did you retire? SW: I don’t remember! I have no idea. In fact, I was going to ask you that because it’s not on my piece of paper! You must have it on a [laughs] I can’t remember what year I retired! Four years ago? Maybe? I don’t remember. LG: I’ll check on that. SW: It’s terrible, I … really, I’m sorry. I’m sure you know what it could have … um, twenty … it was December of, I retired mid-year, so it … LG: Was it 2000…? SW: No, oh no, no, because I was … LG: 17 SW: 2017, that makes sense. Yes, 2017. Because I was in China, teaching at the University, in … on September 11th. And … I had just gotten to China. I had gotten there two weeks earlier. I had gotten on the plane and gone over at the end of August and I taught in China from 2001 to 2002 and then I went back in 2004 and 5 to follow up on some things that I had started over �there. But my teaching year was ’01-’02, and I’d been there, and three weeks later, 9/11 occurred. And, I came back after a year, I didn’t come back at all during the whole time I was in China, I was back a year later and found that, coming onto campus, I was … I was going through what everyone went through the year before. And it was fascinating to watch me. I watched myself, I’m going, “Why am I so emotional? Why am I having all these feelings about this?” Because I wasn’t here. I wasn’t there, I didn’t see anything. And they had the anniversary and I was there and I was … you know, Skidmore did some wonderful things during that period for their faculty and their students, so … Anyway, what else? Anything else? LG: I was about to ask you. SW: Oh, I’m very sorry! I think … anything else? I don’t know. I’m sure that when I’m done with this, I’m going to think of twenty things that I wanted to tell … I wanted to talk to you about. Um … LG: So, you saw a number of different presidents? SW: Yes, I did. I came in under Joe Palamountain, and then, … was it Jamienne…or, … LG: David? SW: No, Jamienne…? Oh, David was first. Ok. And David, oh! Whom I adored, adored, adored. He was one of the most remarkable human beings. And he remembered my name, and there’s no reason why anybody should ever remember my name, I was kind of a small cog in a very big machine and he always remembered my name, always came … he was the president, if you remember, he came to every department. He came around and sat in everybody’s office and wanted to talk to you. And he came into my teeny little closet of an office in UWW and wanted to know all about it, with huge enthusiasm, and caring and kindness, oh! He was a wonderful man. A great loss for us, for every… for the world, actually. And then, Jamienne Studley �had her short tenure, and then President Glotzbach, and now President Conner. So, yes, I’ve seen a lot, through many, many. Um … LG: Lots of changes in the administration … SW: Lots of changes. It’s interesting. You know, again, as someone who was totally invested in Skidmore College but I didn’t have a part, I was invested personally but I didn’t own anything because I was always in these programs that were kind of um, different, aside from the main mission of the College, I couldn't really … I had an interesting perspective and I kept watching every five or ten years or so, the same questions — that the faculty were raising the same questions again and again, about curriculum again, about issues of diversity and inclusion, about the role of a liberal arts college in the world, and how were we going to stay relevant. These are all questions that we went around and around for many, many years in different iterations, and I think they’re still valid, I was glad that Skidmore was asking those questions, because it kept them, I think it kept Skidmore viable and fresh and … I was always impressed with their sincerity and seriousness about our role, our job, as educators. LG: Thank you so much! SW: You’re welcome. This is my pleasure, and thank you for inviting me. And I’ll call you up when I have five more things to tell you! [laughs] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sandra "Sandy" Welter Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit February 3, 2023 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sandy Welter Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 21, 2022 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Sandra Welter began at Skidmore in 1968 as a teacher in the University Without Walls (UWW) program at the Washington County Correctional Facility. She later became a full-time advisor for that program and finally its Director until the program closed in 1998 due to a lack of NY State funding. She then advised in the regular UWW program and, in 1997, in the MALS graduate program. She also taught writing in the Skidmore program at the University of Qufu in China in 2000-2001, as well as in the English Department on campus. She taught ESL to foreign students and worked in the Summer Institute with Higher Education Opportunity students. In addition to her work with these various programs, she discusses in this interview the transition to the new campus and changes in campus life as men matriculated.  Before retiring in 2017, Welter had experienced the college under Presidents Palamaountain, Porter, Studley, and Glotzbach. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Bob Van Meter coeducation ESL Ken Klotz Larry Ries MALS Opportunity Program Prison Programs Qufu-Normal-University-Program UWW https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/562d637b96311cf28c5bb454cc7bf1d2.jpg 2ba9fbee0ebc28177fc0e830914cb842 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/ec5417e100df540a4a9e67d4549dcddb.m4a d1e887704740c2e3889bbe1608cc27a9 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/defbc0c36a98e1dfa801964d3b3c4941.pdf 28ea757456b1732d49063ae89aea3ec0 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Sue Van Hook Years at Skidmore: 1992-2010 Interviewer: Andrea Wise Location of Interview: Cambridge, NY Date of Interview: June 3, 2021 00:00:00 Header 00:00:31 Fall 1992 hired as part-time Teaching Associate. “It was so important to me that I personally drove my application to campus.” 00:01:42 Realized “This is a college in the woods. This is home for me!” 00:02:32 60% fall labs were taught outdoors 00:03:15 Previous career was in land conservancy, 5 years in CA and 5 years in ME 00:03:40 1992, North Woods very quiet; by 1995, mountain bike race, other unsustainable uses 00:05:00 Argued that North Woods is irreplaceable “living laboratory.” 00:06:05 With support from Pres. Glotzbach, Mike West, and Mike Hall, Campus Environment Committee was allotted money for creation of a North Woods stewardship plan. 00:06:25 Prior to Van Hook’s time at Skidmore, the North Woods had been used for teaching (for art, literature, geology, music, physical education, etc.), but while she was there, academic use became more extensive & formalized. 00:07:35 Karen Kellogg hired at Skidmore and Environmental Studies major was born; she brought Northeast Regional Climate Summit to campus 00:08:15 “Because of our North Woods, … academics from all over …willing to come and …were very, very jealous." 00:09:16 Mike Hall attended Campus Environment Committee meetings and listened carefully supporting the creation of the North Woods stewardship plan. 00:09:40 Van Hook wrote stewardship plan in summer. Also showed staff woods as explanation. 00:10:09 North Woods home to water snakes, redwing blackbirds, foxes, owls, prehistoric horsetails, yellow ladies’ slippers, 33 of the 36 species of ferns in NY state, etc. 00:11:00 “…those things started to disappear as more and more people came … the tragedy of the commons story.” 00:12:08 Van Hook told Glotzbach & West, “The environment really needs to be part of every decision the college makes.” 00:13:10 Therefore, Glotzbach & West invited chair of Campus Environment Committee to attend Institutional Policy and Planning Committee meetings. 00:14:25 Once on campus, Van Hook considered getting PhD. However, realized would have to give up many community and parenting activities. Decided “I had the best of both worlds” being involved in community and teaching the fun part of classes. 00:17:07 Skidmore had been hiring TAs on adjunct, one semester at a time basis. Teaching quality suffered as adjuncts were unfamiliar with the labs. With Phyllis Roth’s support, Department chair Dave Domozych formalized one-year contracts, then three-year contracts, and eventually a Senior Teaching Associate position for long-term TAs. 00:19:20 Curricular changes in 18 years — in first 8 years, 4 required lab courses before students could specialize. Then, demand for specialization sooner, so 4 courses combined to 2. �00:20:16 Spent a summer learning Cell & Molecular Biology lab techniques. Challenging at first, but then became fascinated with the microscopic world where “molecular engines … send things around inside the cell.” 00:22:09 One-on-one research opportunities led some undergraduates to publish papers. 00:22:53 Effects of digital age on writing quality, plus combining foundational courses, led to loss of student abilities for cross-disciplinary thinking, making connections on their own. 00:23:39 Climate change has increased student awareness of environment and related interests in gardening, outdoors, etc. 00:25:00 New science wing allowed for grant funded collection of specialized microscopes; also, atrium led to more connection between science faculty because more mingling. 00:26:10 Phyllis Roth - in addition to being supportive of TA professionalization, also extremely personally supportive during Van Hook’s breast cancer. 00:28:10 Roth unique, easy to talk to. ,one of a kind; when being treated for her breast cancer, Roth wore many different wigs, saying “let’s make it fun.” 00:29:30 Van Hook had 3 young children, 30 minute commute, and multiple community activities when starting as TA. Work-life balance? Schedule corresponded well with children’s school, and no pressure to research/publish, but encouragement to do so. 00:31:09 As the children grew older, worked at Skidmore for summers.” Skidmore Life Science Camp for Girls - taught 8 or 9 years, “awesome experiences.” 00:32:24 Camp teaching evolved into summer independent study work with Skidmore students, which then evolved to working with Ecovative & continuing research with Skidmore students. 00:33:55 Technology changes: Did “chalkboard teaching” while grad student, then overhead projectors in first years as Skidmore TA, then whiteboard/smartboard teaching along with two younger peers (“Charlie’s Angels”). 00:35:21 When Blackboard tech arrived, where providing syllabus, giving assignments, grading lab reports was all done through software, “it was really a big part of my decision to transition and leave.” Preferred grading outdoors. Zoom has advantage over Blackboard because can see students. “I really rely on energetic exchange between people — to know how they’re doing, to know how I’m doing, who’s struggling, who has a question…” 00:38:15 Working with HEOP students (Higher Education Opportunity Program) — saw student potential, many challenges for them, much extra help in office hours. 00:39:45 One student, with much mentoring, is now health care professional in El Salvadore. 00:41:01 Was once called at 2 am from very stressed student, worked with HEOP to help him complete semester; “I … learned their life stories,” gained trust. 00:42:00 Students with major life challenges — need to start supporting them earlier; HEOP students arriving on campus earlier. “Some of my best experiences … pre-orientation trips.” 00:44:22 Only one woman faculty when Van Hook was in college in 1970s. Saw her in Albany airport years later; now very close. “She was my role model for being a female scientist.” 00:44:50 At Skidmore in 1992, a few women faculty in department, a few people of color, all of the TAs were women. Now changes - some more diversity. Still, a need for STEM pipeline. 00:45:55 Eg. Soul Fire Farm teaches African American’s how to farm, providing a pipeline. 00:47:45 Science “frontiers” - currently shifting away from the microbiology frontier (previous frontiers were space and oceans). Now it’s soil! 00:48:15 Agricultural practices as far back as Mesopotamia are wrong. Soil mycorrhizal systems of fungi and bacteria shouldn’t be tilled because leads to off gassing of CO2. 00:50:05 Climate change can be reversed with better soil management. �00:53:35 Story of transition to Ecovative: dreaming techniques, “life is mushrooming.” 00:55:00 Mycorestoration and mycoremediation workshops with Paul Stamets. 00:57:12 Thursday Naturalists (octogenarians) - saw face in Chaga mushroom. 00:59:23 Snake death dance/heart shape, message to “do what I love most.” 01:02:55 Phone call with Eben from Ecovative - told about dream exercise, chaga & snake. 01:03:37 Began mentoring Ecovative staff. 01:04:55 Won EPA grant, collaborated with Skidmore students (research). 01:05:50 Fall 2009, because of recession, Skidmore needed to lay off 70 people - offered voluntary incentives, provided Van Hook with “graceful transition” to Ecovative. 01:07:00 “The message for me in my whole healing journey from the breast cancer has been to listen to your heart more.” 01:07:55 Taught Ecovative employees fungi/science, first company grew slowly, then 60 employees during a recession! Mushroom packaging was ahead of its time, now catching on. Now Ecovative exploring alternative meats. 01:10:10 A thread through her careers was to care for people; misses the students tremendously. 01:10:48 One more Skidmore story - transformative experience of student with cerebral palsy. Mattress in car to get to experiment site in North Woods, photographed slides at different magnifications so she could see what other students saw. She now has “PhD in neuroscience so that she could understand her illness.” “Those are the things you teach for… I miss the students.” 01:13:00 End � https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/7d5aa65f6eed3a4fe29863d1cbf5e72e.pdf 6f41583bee6f5da22ed932054f8144dd PDF Text Text Interview with Sue Van Hook by Andrea Wise, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Cambridge, NY, June 3, 2021. ANDREA WISE: Good morning, this is Andrea Wise interviewing Sue Van Hook on the morning of June third, 2021, at her home in Cambridge, New York. And now I’m going to have Sue introduce herself and tell us how she first got involved with Skidmore College. SUE VAN HOOK: Good morning, Andrea. It’s great to see you again, after 11 years, since I left Skidmore College. So, I came to Skidmore as a Teaching Associate for a part-time position teaching Population Biology. And I had a two-year-old at the time, and two other girls in elementary grades, and my husband came in one day and said, “It’s time for you to go back to work.” So, there was an ad in the paper, the Albany Times Union, for this part-time position in Population Biology and I said, “Well this fits pretty well.” And I was applying for another job, with American Farmland Trust, at the same time. And, I went to two — both interviews, and as it turns out it was great that I got this job and not the other one. [laughs] But I remember that it was so important to me that I personally drove my application to campus. AW: Oh wow! SVH: Since I lived nearby. And I drove in to the main entrance there and I was just overwhelmed with the allée of, not even a formal allée, a woods, of trees, for quite a distance, as the first impression that this college was making on anyone who entered it. And then I turned on to the perimeter road to get to the Dana parking lot, and I got more into the woods. And when I turned into the parking lot there were tons of trees in the parking lot and I got to park near the trees and they shaded my car and I thought, “This is a college in the woods! This is home for me!” The woods are my home. I feel more comfortable there than anywhere else, so I felt really really good about that first impression. And then I went in and met Bernie Possidente, and he was wearing red sneakers and it just got better from there! [laughs]. They ended up giving me a very informal interview that day — they were desperate for someone for this position and, um … I think I got a call within a couple of days — “You’re hired.” [laughs]. Very, very fun. So, as it turns out, I was teaching for Monica Raveret Richter in Population Biology, and it wasn’t exactly my field — I was a botanist and mycologist, but it was okay. And the best part of the class, for as long as we could in the fall we went outdoors for the labs. And we did three weeks of labs on bees — testing bee preferences. We made, the students made their own bee feeders, we kept beehives in the lab, they learned how to paint bees, we were almost handling bees, and we did it all in the North Woods, so I was, like, “I get to teach the fun part of the course with the great students in lab, hands-on, for three hours, outdoors!” AW: [laughs] SVH: “Outdoors again, next week too!” And so, I would say a good 60 percent of our labs in the fall semester were outdoors in the North Woods, and it was amazing! It was amazing! And so the reason it’s so important to me is I came from 10 years background of land conservation before that. On both coasts. I was a preserve manager for the Nature Conservancy in northern California �for five years, where I did my graduate work, and then I was a director of stewardship and land conservation for Maine Coast Heritage Trust for the whole coast of Maine. And that was my entrance into this great new campus with woods! So, it got challenged right away. I came in ’92 and it was in 1995 that the first championship mountain bike race was held for New York State in our precious woods. And that changed, sort of, the course of history for the North Woods. They’re still a wonderful place to be, but it’s, um, it’s harder for me to go there every year. AW: I’ll bet. SVH: Yeah, but the beginning part was, I would be out there by myself scouting, preparing, and I would be there for hours and never see another person, and … besides the carriage roads, you know, which had been maintained well for a hundred years or more, the small trails were small! Really small! You really felt like you were in the woods! And so … lucky. AW: Yeah. So, tell us a little bit, please … I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about just how you opted to embrace the North Woods as a teaching lab and formalize it a little bit more for all of Skidmore. I mean, there was a great deal of work that went in to development … I hate to use the word “development,” but to embracing the North Woods and having it become a teaching opportunity for you and others on the Skidmore Campus, of course the students as well. SVH: Yes, so, that is a long story … and it goes through three college presidents. And, what I saw there was a living laboratory, and the argument I made after this threat from the biking championship, was that we could build 10 science buildings and we could take wrecking balls to them and we could still rebuild them — we wouldn’t lose too much, other than money. But what was occurring in the North Woods was, if we were wrecking it with inappropriate uses on slopes and willy nilly trails being created, without any stewardship — we couldn’t replace that ever. So we’re looking at tens of thousands of years of evolutionary history in the fauna and flora, and now the funga … there’s a new word for fungi kingdom, it’s called fun-ga. Love it! We could never replace that, and that was the argument I made, and I thought to a classical scholar such as David Porter, he would hear that argument. Didn’t. To Jamie Studley — she didn’t hear that argument either. And finally, it was actually Mike West and Phil Glotzbach together who heard that argument, and we were able to finally get some level of protection for … in the shape of a stewardship plan that we ended up writing through the Campus Environment Committee, to sort of formalize this as a living laboratory. And in the meantime, well, even when I got there the woods were being used. They were being used by art students, they were being used by literature classes — they were studying Thoreau. They were being used by the geology labs. They were being used by music … and some PE teachers were, you know, Physical Education had their students out there. So, I think there was always a history of students using the woods, but not as extensively or formally as what we did over the course of the 18 years that I was there. AW: So at some point you became involved with the Campus Environment Committee. Your love of the North Woods, your sensitivity to the concerns surrounding overuse of campus resources, led you to a broader appointment or a broader position on the Campus Environment … so tell me a little bit about that. �SVH: I don’t remember how I got invited to that committee, but [laughs] it probably was after the bike race. Umm, Eban Goodstein, from Economics, was chairing the committee at that point, and I just sat in on a couple of meetings and then I went, “Yeah, I need to get involved in this.” And … its fuzzy where the leadership went, but Eban Goodstein, …well I guess one of the monumental things that happened during my tenure there was shortly after Karen Kellogg was hired and ES was born — the Environmental Studies major was born. Eban brought … no, Karen actually brought — Eban had left and gone to Lewis and Clark, and he started the first Climate Science Summit among 40 academic institutions — and this would have been the early 2000s, and Karen went to that on the west coast and then she brought it back to Skidmore and we had our first Northeast Regional Climate Summit on Skidmore Campus. It’s pretty awesome! AW: Yeah. SVH: Yeah. It was very empowering to know that we had the awareness building there. And because of our North Woods, all of these academics from all over New England and the Northeast were willing to come and we went out there with them and showed them our living laboratory and they were very, very jealous. Turns out there were only seven college campuses in the Northeast that had adjacent properties, and ours was one of the larger ones. The biggest one is at Williams College, with 2,500 acres, but it’s not immediately adjacent to campus. AW: When you say adjacent properties you mean wooded properties? SVH: Yeah. Walk out the door from a classroom into the woods. AW: Okay. SVH: At Williams you have to get in a car or take a bus to get there. But ours was one of the next larger ones, and that was an important fact for me. I mean, I said to the admissions people, “Mary Lou, this needs to be featured. You want to attract good students here? We have one of the largest living laboratories. Put it in the admissions information!” And so, so that was an interesting progression. And I guess I just got more and more involved in the committee, as a member of the committee. I remember Mike Hall being on the committee, and Mike was really good at listening. He was really good at listening, and he represented a lot of the financial constraints for the Institution but he was also very supportive. So we got money to do the Stewardship Plan, and over the summer I wrote it and did all of the research, and I took Karl Broekhuizen out there; he’s like, “What is this all about?” And I said, “Why don’t you come on a walk with me, Karl?” and it was the middle of a hot summer day and I walked him on every single trail out there in an hour and a half, and he was quite [laughs] quite exhausted by the end, but it, it drove home the point. Because a lot of the people sitting on campus in offices just see the edge … right? They just see the edge. Step in a couple of feet and you’ve got water snakes three feet long in the Wilson Marsh, and the redwing blackbird territories, and you’ve got the horsetails, which are prehistoric, dinosaur-type plants, growing around the water tower! And you go a few more feet over the hill and you’ve got the yellow ladies slippers, which only grow on limestone soils — very, very rare populations in all of New York State! And eventually you get �deep into the woods and you get 33 species [of ferns] — of 36 total species in New York State, 33 of them are on our campus! AW: That’s awesome. SVH: That’s what they didn’t see. AW: Yeah. SVH: That’s what they didn’t see. They didn’t hear the bird, they didn’t see the owl, they didn’t see the fox family that we showed students — with the pups — they didn’t see that, and all of those things started to disappear as more and more people came to the campus for biking, for dog walking, you know, it’s the tragedy of the commons story. SVH: So eventually my good friend Sue Rosenberg, in your department, became the chair of the Campus Environment Committee, and she was chair when we wrote the Stewardship Plan. And we were able to hire some students. We were able to create a Director of Sustainability in the Facilities Department, who was housed there, who lived there, and at first it was a student, Mary Patterson, and eventually it became a full-fledged position after I left. So, after Sue — I can’t remember the transition with Sue, but it went from Sue to me. And, the Campus Environment Committee included one faculty member that was the liaison to the Institutional Policy and Planning Committee, the highest committee level of the college. And that person never showed up at our meetings, … I mean, just rarely. I don’t even remember; it was a bunch of different faculty members in the time that I was on the committee. And so finally I went to Phil Glotzbach and Mike West and I said, “So, this arrangement isn’t working.” And I said, “You know, the environment really needs to be part of every decision this college makes. Every single decision. Whether it’s about students, whether it’s about student housing, whether it’s about curriculum, whether it’s about physical plant — there’s an environmental component, and especially as climate change is facing… growing more and more in our faces, we have to plan for this. And I said, “You know what, this woods we have is a carbon storage facility. We can get paid for this woods! Have you thought about that?” Mike West, at the time, had just arrived on campus, and he came to our meetings. He came to our meetings — a lot of them! And he heard the issues we were working on, one of which was energy, renewable energy; and Karen was very, very involved in pushing that. He investigated geothermal and look what happened! I mean the whole campus is geothermal now, and we led the academic community in that effort, absolutely led it. So, they heard me and said, “Ok, fine, let’s take the chair of the Campus Environment Committee and have them come sit on IPPC,” and at the time it happened to be me so … you know, me, little TA in the Biology Department, sitting with all the deans and …! [laughs]. It was great! I loved it! And I sat quietly for six months and listened, and then I started using my voice. So that’s sort of the trajectory of my time with Campus Environment Committee. I don’t even know if the Committee still exists, frankly, now that we have a Director of Sustainability, I have a feeling it’s been subsumed under that umbrella? AW: Yeah, but it has assumed a prominence that it would not have without all this foundational work that you led. So, tip of the hat to you, Sue. �AW: I wonder now if this is a good opportunity to, it sounds like it might be, to lead into your work in the sciences. The challenges and the rewards of being a Teaching Assistant in the Biology Department, not only incorporating the North Woods in much of your work, but also other opportunities in the classroom and beyond. SVH: Yeah, thanks for that question — that’s a great one. So, I have to tell you that I got back on campus. I was sharing an office in that — remember that weird hall down from your office, it was just windows and they put up a board. I was in one of those [laughs], the first one — with another woman who was hired part-time, a teaching associate … who didn’t do very well, she was gone in one semester. But, … so I got there and I’m like, “I’m back in academia! Oh, this feels fun!” I started unpacking all of my science books, you know, we’d moved to Cambridge two years earlier and I’d just left them boxed up in the attic, and I brought them out and I put them on my shelves and I’m like, “Ok, maybe it’s time for me to go back to school and get my PhD!” AW: Oh, my goodness! SVH: “Maybe that’s a really good idea. The kids are kind of all in school and taken care of in daycare; I can manage this.” And I thought of it for about six months, and then I watched all of the biology faculty, [laughs] and I saw that if they had children, they had one, and if they had any social life, it was with one another — you know, maybe Friday-night pizza, that was about it. And I was, meanwhile, coming … I was in a part-time position, I was coming home and coaching pee-wee soccer, pee-wee softball, I was coaching with my kids, doing dance classes with them at the Dance Center. AW: Sorry to interrupt, you have three children? SVH: Three daughters, yes, yes, yes. And I thought, “Well, I’d have to give up all of this community involvement that I have in my community here. Head of PTA Environment Committee, you know, lots of things… I was involved with singing in the Chorale. And I thought about it for a long time, because I was always a really good student, at the top of my class, and I was like — the PhD trajectory, I was accepted to a PhD program or two and I chose not to at the time and I went with my husband’s dreams instead of mine, and so I was like, “Yeah, I’m really supposed to go down that path,” and I really made a very conscious decision that I had the best of both worlds. And teaching labs was like definitely the funnest part of the course. I felt that students retained more of those experiences than they did from lectures, and I thought, “Just be happy with this. This is enough. This is fine. This is awesome.” And, the way things grew — and this is where Phyllis Roth comes in — she was Dean of the Faculty at the time when Betsy Franz left, and passed the baton to me. We taught together for one semester and Betsy left. After 25 years she said, “Sue, I feel confident enough that you are going to fill my slot here. This is good.” [laughs]. Almost did. I didn’t make it 25 years. But, at the time they had been hiring a lot of adjunct TAs, you know, one semester at a time, and they were "less than” … they were “less than” in delivery to the students. They were barely able to teach the labs in terms of following directions of what the lab exercise was or experiment was. And so, the Department made a conscious decision to up it, to up the standard. And, you know, a �lot of research institutions, the labs are all taught by graduate students, right. So Skidmore is different in that regard, we didn’t have a graduate program. So we actually hired people. So, I was part-time for fall semester; for spring semester they asked — I went from part-time teaching two labs, I think, a week, to an overload spring semester. [laughs] So they … they saw a good thing when they got one. I was very broadly trained with my natural history education at Humboldt State University in Northern California in botany and mycology. So, I did the overload and then by that fall I’m like, “Okay, that was not fun! [laughs] And you’re paying me $2,000 to do this? No, I don’t think so.” So we really made the TA positions more formalized, and we were on one-year contacts at least. And then when Dave Domozych became the chair and his wife was one of the TAs, along with me, she had her PhD, Dave went to Phyllis and said, “You know, can we give them three-year contracts?” And so that happened through Phyllis’ support. And so there was an evolution, and the other … the next step, was, “Can we give them any promise of a promotion? Anything? Can we give them anything?” Well at the time Loretta Parsons had been there over 25 years and … she, you know, that’s a long time. Can we at least make her a Senior Teaching Associate?” Which they did, and she got a big chunk of change, and then, we had to go through the process but there was at least that opportunity to get one step higher. Ok, so we did it! And then, the three of us that were there used to joke about the new people coming in and say, “You know, we’d make more money if we quit and reapplied.” [laughs]. AW: [laughs] I don’t know [laughs]. SVH: [laughs] Well, they always started way higher than we did. I started at $18,000. AW: Oh wow. SVH: Yeah, for a full-time salary. Yeah, so…But, I don’t care about all of that, and part was that it was the most fun! And I went through several curricular changes. So, we had single courses for two years straight — students had to take Population Biology in the fall, Plant Biology in the spring, Cell and Molec in the next fall and Animal Biology in the following spring. They had to do two years of required courses before they could get in to electives. And after eight years of that — this is the changing in the student, incoming student expectations and standards, right? They want … there was more specialization happening sooner. Right? So, they want … the Cell and Molecular thing, track, was like really hot stuff, right? The genetics and doing the PCRs and identifying the genes and … that was just hot, a hot ticket item. Field biology? Ehh, not so much. [laughs] Right? So there was pressure on the department to shorten that requirement phase from two years to one year, so we crammed those four courses into two courses. So all of a sudden, I had to teach Cell and Molecular Biology, as a field biologist. So I had a very long summer training with Pat Hilleren, [laughs] learning to do PCRs, and I failed about seven times and I said, “You still want me to teach this?” [laughs] AW: And help us … PCRs are? SVH: Polymerase Chain Reactions, right? So you’re extracting DNA and then you’re subjecting it to a bunch of enzymes and chopping it up and replicating it really fast in a heated up little machine — this is how much I remember [laughs] — not very much! And you amplify the DNA �so you have a big enough chunk that you can run it on a gel and spread it out so you can actually see the different genes. AW: Okay. Oh wow! SVH: This was like — I had done plenty of labs, gel technique with auger and Petrie dishes, so handling the auger gels was fine, you know, I knew all of that, but working with the DNA part! But then I had my eyes opened to this whole other world, this microscopic world, and how these molecular engines act like little Pac Man and move, send things around inside the cell, and I eventually became totally fascinated with it. AW: Um, so obviously this is a response to student expectations, student preparation, and just changing methodologies in academe, right? I mean there’s a whole bunch of things at work, forces at work on this, but in terms of student outcomes, the preparation they got at Skidmore did led to some pretty awesome achievements on behalf of our alumni, correct? SVH: Yes, correct. The super-achievers were still there. And Nicole Donofrio published several papers as an undergraduate, doing research with Dave Domozych. There were a few others, we had, there were a few whiz kids that just took it very far, as far as they could, because they had that one-on-one research opportunity, which continued all through the 18 years I was there. That was very special, and we emphasized that to the Admissions Department, too. Very, very rarely can you go to an institution where your kid is going to get one-on-one research experience, if they choose, with a faculty member. Not a TA, a faculty member. We TAs expanded those opportunities, too, over the years, for more independent study. But, the writing quality declined. You know, it was really the digital age taking hold, right? Screen mentality, not having whole conversations, not learning language, not learning how to write it, not learning how to speak it. Everything getting shrunk to bite size. Not being able to synthesize and not being able to use cross-disciplinary thinking. So for me, the shrinking of the courses from four into two, we lost all the depth, and all that depth allows you to do the crossdisciplinary thinking, to make connections on your own — “oh THAT is really connected to THAT?” That all disappears. And so that was hard to swallow because you want to impart all of it. You want to say, “No, you need to know this much!” I would say the environment and the awareness of science literacy increased. Right? So you have more kids that are interested in the outdoors, more kids interested in gardening, more kids interested in environment, more kids interested in climate science …. So there was a student movement for environmental awareness, but I don’t see that the science requirements followed that. Now I think it’s shifted, so you can fill me in on … AW: Well, actually I’ve been gone now for a few years myself, but I believe you’re right, I think it has shifted. And then there is also, actually, the growth of Environmental Studies, which sort of emphasizes what you just mentioned, I mean, growth in science in a different area. But now, more important than ever, we have a brand-new science building at Skidmore. Have you been to that new building? Do you know much about it? SVH: I have not been there. [laughs] I’ve been back on campus a few times to teach for a few �people, lead some walks in the woods. Umm, you know, that said, I witnessed the new wing being built, at the tune of $4 million at the time, which allowed for the super-duper microscopy facility to be built. Again, Skidmore’s on the map because of Dave Domozych and that, and the grants he obtained for that — every kind of microscope we have. And undergrads get trained on them and get to use them, that’s unbelievable — no one gets to do that at undergraduate anywhere else. So I witnessed all that. And that, because of the atrium on that wing, being able to see all the floors brought the geosciences and the physical sciences and the chemical sciences and the biological a little bit closer. A little bit closer, because before we were isolated on floors and we didn’t really go between floors but the atrium we used and we walked down through there and we saw each other that way. AW: Sure, that makes sense. So you talked a little bit about Phyllis Roth, initially, and I’m just interested since she was Dean … and Interim President when you were there? I’m trying to remember. SVH: Yeah. AW: So I think you had some pretty good interaction with her, maybe you could give me a sense of how supportive she might have been of the sciences and of your work? SVH: Yeah, I love to talk about Phyllis. A wonderful character. [laughs] I miss her. So initially Phyllis, as I said, was very involved with Dave Domozych in upping our positions as Teaching Associates and giving us the opportunity for one promotion commensurate with salary increase, too, so that was very much appreciated. And then Phyllis did something really, really, personally wonderful for me. So I was diagnosed with my breast cancer on September 9th, 1998 — nine, nine, nine, eight. And I had told Dave Domozych, chair at the time, that I was going to give him a call the next day when I got my results, and either I was going to come or I wasn’t going to come. And the reason I was going to be able to tell him that was because Phyllis said I could take a year off paid. She gave me full pay for six months, she introduced me to someone in the English department who had just been through this, right away, and I went and had lunch with that person right away, Jo Devine, and we had a wonderful lunch — took away a lot of my fear. And then I was on disability pay for the other six months. It took that whole level of stress, that whole level of stress away. She knew I had to focus on me, and I don’t think I could have gotten through that year with my little children — my children were 7, 11 and 14 — and … not having to worry about finances, and my husband is a self-employed artist, so there wasn’t a whole lot coming in from that stream of revenue, and so this was a really, a huge meaningful, supportive act on her part. And then it was just too ironic that she then had to go through this herself. It was just too much. So, I will always hold Phyllis very dear to my heart, for that and many other reasons. I mean, she was someone I could just talk to, and I didn’t feel that way with a lot of people in the upstairs, on the fourth floor, but I felt very comfortable going to her with any kind of faculty-related concerns or student concerns. And she was just a pip! I mean, she approached her breast cancer by wearing a different kind of wig every day! I mean, I thought, “God, you’re so awesome!” I didn’t … I went bald and turbaned, you know, I couldn’t put a wig on my head! She goes, “Oh come on, let’s make it fun!” AW: I remember that. I do remember Phyllis’s many wigs and I’m not surprised to hear about �this powerful expression of personal and professional support for you and I’m glad for you and I think we all feel the loss of Phyllis, even now…. This sort of leads me into matters of gender and work-life balance, and obviously a health crisis is above the line here, but I’m just wondering, you had three children when you started teaching at Skidmore — you still have three children — your children were young when you started teaching at Skidmore. You had a 30-mile commute to Saratoga. You had engagements in the community and other interests. How did you balance all of this with a pretty demanding job as a lab teacher at Skidmore? SVH: Once I made the decision that being a lab instructor was enough, it eased. And I realized that I’m really only there eight months a year, right? I get pretty much three months off in the summer and I get January kind of off, although we are doing a lot of prep. So it corresponded very well with the kids in their school years. When they were really little, I took my summers off, and then I couldn’t resist the wonderful opportunities that Skidmore afforded me in being able to do research if I wanted to. So there was no pressure to publish and do research, like tenure-track faculty have, but I was certainly encouraged, and that was a gift, too. So I could use the facilities such as the autoclave in the microbiology lab, or the greenhouse, you know, to do experiments. And … and my love was fungi! So, one of the first, well, and we also had a sabbatical replacement for population biology for Monica one year, and his approach was to let students do independent research right from the get-go, right the minute they walked in the door as first year students. And Laurie Freeman and I were co-teaching the labs at that point and so we said, “Yeah, bring it on! We’ll create a 12, 15, 30, whatever many students out of 120 want to do this.” So, out of 120 students we had 10 percent — we had 12 students that wanted to do this. So, I felt glad that I had time off, but, as the years evolved and the kids grew older, I was able to go back there for summers, and one of the draws was the life science camp for girls, the Skidmore Life Science Camp for Girls, sixth grade to eighth grade. AW: Right. SVH: And … for one year we had it for boys, too, it was co-ed, because my daughter went one year with her co-horts who were guys. And the boys at sixth grade to eighth grade — oh my gosh, not worth it! [laughs]. Wayyy too hard to handle. So we decided, we made a decision that this is just going to be a girls science camp, you know, we’re just going to do STEM for girls. And I think I did that for eight or nine years, and … awesome, awesome experiences for the girls! It was pulling garlic mustard, we had them all in hip-waders in Wilson Marsh pulling out purple loosestrife and while we were in there, we saw the snakes and the turtles and the birds nesting and it was just awesome. So, that evolved from that camp in the summer, which was a two-week camp, into then working independent study with students. And then, my connection with Ecovative, the last four years, or three, four, five years I was there, presented a new grant funded opportunity — it was for students to get paid to do research for the EPA and the USDA, and then after I mentored two students, two of our students in their senior years for those capstone research projects, both got hired immediately upon their presentations at the end of the summer over in Murray-Aiken, and worked for Ecovative for a number of years. I started working just independent study with anybody who wanted to, so I got a lot of ES students who were really fascinated with mushroom packaging and what Ecovative was doing for the environment, and worked with just a lot of different extra kids that way, as I was transitioning. �AW: I will talk a little bit about Ecovative in a minute, but I want to ask, also, if you can tell me a little bit — we talked about this before the tape started running — about IT, and changes in technology and how that may have affected you, expectations for you as a teacher, expectations of your students. Did it change the way you taught? Did it help/hurt? Some of the challenges? SVH: So, my first response is, I got out in time [laughs]. That said, my graduate work was done — and I TA-ed for seven years as a graduate student — so I did a lot of chalkboard teaching and I was very comfortable doing that. Then we started to get … we were still using overhead projectors in the labs … AW: I know, I remember [laughs]. SVH: … for eight years with Monica. I don’t think we got beyond overhead projectors in Plant Biology. Overhead projectors! I still have all of those mylars up in my filing cabinets. I just can’t throw them away, thinking someday they’ll be useful again. And then it evolved, and my exposure to it was through Environmental Science, through teaching. I eventually went to teaching half the year in Environmental Science, ES 105 labs, with Kim and Karen, which was — the nickname for the three of us, by the students, was the Charlie’s Angels! [laughs] And so, we got some pretty cool imitations from our students, I must say! But they started using the Smart Boards because they were younger faculty who had come in with it, right? I’m teaching up here with all the old faculty who don’t know how to do this, and they’re coming in with this whole Smart Board technology in front of the classroom and so I had to adapt to it. But by the very end, they introduced the Blackboard …? AW: Whiteboard? SVH: No, the Smart Board was the whiteboard, but the Blackboard was a software program where you interface with the students on the software, like you give them their assignments on there, you give them the syllabus on there, you read their lab reports on this thing, on this computer thing. I’m like, oh no, I do enough time on the computer screen, I do not want to be reading student papers on the computer screen when normally I go up in the field where my husband’s painting for a weekend and I look out over this beautiful landscape of fall leaves and I grade papers up there. That’s where I’m grading papers. I am not sitting at a computer grading papers. So it was really a big part of my decision to transition and leave. Yeah, I just did not want … and then they were just beginning to teach online courses and like, “Sue, do you want to teach this online course this summer?” “N-o, n-o.” AW: But of course, and I understand what you’re saying and I’ve felt it myself and I’ve heard it from others, but this past year of COVID has taught us, more than anything, the ability to pivot and use online resources. It’s the thing that kept many of us going. I mean, did it make you think, “Oh, should I have done more or should I do more, or …?” Any regrets? SVH: No regrets, but I did adapt, right? And Zoom was very different than what we had available 10 years ago. So Zoom you can see each other and you can put up your slideshow, your PowerPoint slideshow, and interact that way and see them, you know, you can at least see people. You know, I’m an energy worker, as well, I do healing touch, so I really rely on �energetic exchange between people — to know how they’re doing, to know how I’m doing, who’s struggling, who has a question, you know I just … the in-person thing will never be replaceable really, but Zoom does a pretty good job of making it available in this pandemic. And I think we will … you know, I really don’t ever want to drive to another meeting! [laughs] I do yoga four mornings a week, which I did this morning from my living room with my yoga instructor on the screen, and I may not ever transition away from that, actually. AW: Yeah, it’s true. SVH: Yeah. AW: So I want to briefly pivot here, myself, and just … you’ve sort of alluded to this a couple of times, you’ve mentioned students, and I’m just interested, over your 18 years at Skidmore, some thoughts about changes in the student body, or any particular student stories stand out in your mind even now? SVH: So one big elephant in the room is BIPOC. We haven’t talked about that. And during my tenure there it was the push across the board for multiculturalism to increase, multiculturalism on campuses. And I was certainly part of that. And HEOP [Opportunity Program] was a big piece of that, and HEOP in the sciences was definitely a challenge. So I always had HEOP students among the 48 or 50 students I taught every semester, and I was on the phone with the HEOP people over in Starbuck a lot, because they kept telling me, “Don’t alter your expectations, don’t alter the way you grade papers, don’t alter a thing. We’re bringing these kids in, we’re giving them extra help.” And, so, okay, so I gave the extra help in my office hours for making up a lab or redoing a lab or … and yet, I got into a real fight one time about this because I said, “They’re still pouring through the cracks. This isn’t working! This isn’t working. We need to do something different here.” And I remember we had one African American student, he was in my Population Biology Lab and Plant Biology Lab for the first two semesters — it was like, we had a department-wide discussion at one of our department meetings saying “We’re going get this guy through. He has enough potential, we are gonna get him through.” And we did. I had one student from El Salvador, who happened to be an exchange student here in this town and who my daughters adopted and gave all their clothes to because she arrived with no clothing. We went through the attic and among the three daughters we outfitted her with all her needs for the year. And she was playing soccer with my middle daughter and then she had the opportunity to stay and she came to Skidmore, and she was in my lab in Biology, in Plant Biology and Population Biology. I spent a lot of extra time with her and I knew her. I knew … she came here not knowing English, you know, as a high school student, eleventh grader, and even when she wasn’t in my courses, she was still in my office hours, you know, because she knew me and she could trust me and I mentored her, and I mentored her, and I mentored her, and I mentored her, and she went from being a C minus student finally up to like a B plus and got through. And she and I have stayed in touch and she is now back in El Salvador, living with her family, married, with kids, and is a health-care professional. AW: Oh wow. That’s awesome. �SVH: It’s a great success story. I had another situation where I was called at two o’clock in the morning from one of my students who had been admitted to Four Winds, and he was begging me not to flunk him, you know, to hold on, it was near finals time and the pressure was just too great and he collapsed. And in talking … I’m like, “Why are you calling me? I’m not the right person you should be calling.” He said, “But I can trust you, I can trust you, and you need to do this for me.” And so I got on the phone with HEOP and we came up with solutions. But I, in my office hours, had learned their life stories, and these are kids who are sending back money to their families, who took care of all their siblings all through high school, with single parents, I mean, their stories were just phenomenal! So, we need to do better, younger, we need to start at … three years old! You know! And it’s hard to force it at this level because you mentally see the need and want it to happen, but it doesn’t happen that way, you have to grow it. And so we started bringing the HEOP students on campus a whole month early, the whole month of August, to prepare them. Some of my best experiences were, Kim and I led pre-orientation trips to … and we did the Environmental Studies one. And so we took kids backpacking through the woods at Merck Forest. And I did that for eight years and we had a lot of HEOP students come on those, a lot of international students come on those, and one of the best times was [laughs] … Abdullah Bah did get through the program as well, and he came from Senegal, and we’re on this field trip and we’re working forestry all day long. We all have hardhats on and we’re clearing brush from the trail crew and we get to the end of the day at the cabin and I say, “Ok, it’s time to go for a swim in the lake.” That was our shower, right? And so everybody comes, and one girl got really hurt that day, she fell from the dock — that was an emergency we dealt with. And another girl that trip forgot her contacts, so that was another psychological emergency — I’m doing healing touch for her, [laughs] giving her my lavender oil to get her through the night, for her anxiety attack. Anyway, so we get back from the lake and then he shows up to me with this little towel and this little bar of soap and he says, “Could you please show me where the showers are?” [laughs]. And I said, “We were just there! Somehow that didn’t get communicated to you. I’m so sorry.” And I said, “But, down here in the creek there’s a little pool and it’s far enough away you could sit down there and do what you need to do.” AW: So you talked a little bit about changes in student diversity. Similarly, for faculty and staff, I mean, I’m not sure if this was a change that you noticed when you were there. You left Skidmore in … 2010 and you’d been there for 18 years so … 92? Yeah, ’92. So, you know, just … gender, cultural, and other diversity issues, as far as faculty and staff go. Anything there that comes to mind that you want to share, particularly in the sciences? SVH: So when I was in college in my Department of Botany, there was one woman faculty member in the ’70s. She taught Zoology and I took it from her. And she and I met in the Albany airport 40 years later, because she was from Albany, NY, and I didn’t know it! [laughs] Now we’re really close. And she went through breast cancer too, and she was my role model for being a female scientist. So, um … when I got to Skidmore there were … one, two … two of the tenure track people were women and … um, maybe five were guys. Chemistry … I don’t think there were any women chemists at the time. There were TAs — most of the TAs were women … I would say all of the TAs were women! All four floors, the TAs were women. Um, right, so we can do with less salary and we want to be Moms, and … so. But that changed, that definitely �changed. I think there was a time there were more women faculty in Biology than men. In terms of diversity, we had one Latinx … and that might have been it. Umm, and I don’t think that’s changed since I’ve left. I don’t think there’s anyone there that I know of. ES might be different, but …yeah, I know ES is different, I know they have two people of color. So, yeah again it’s that pipeline, right? It’s that pipeline, that STEM pipeline. And, um, where did I just see … oh, the whole organic regenerative farming movement is altering this. So there’s a farm nearby here somewhere called Soul Fire Farm that is run by African American people for African American people, to teach them how to farm. Think about that connection to slavery, right? So, they were the ones doing the farming, right? And where did that disconnect happen? Because we shoved them all into ghettos and cities where they couldn’t farm, or they were too poor to own land and they couldn’t farm, or they were still indentured, …. So that shift is fascinating — that deserves a PhD right there. But this farm is focused on bringing them through the pipeline, and that’s what we have to do in the sciences as well. And the science … what I’m seeing now is that the shift is away from molecular and cell science, the microscopic level, and back to big ecosystems-based science. I mean, climate change is forcing us there, right? And the more we’ve learned about fungi, I mean … fungi, my babies, have exploded since Paul Stamets, right? So, I brought Paul Stamets to campus in 2008, and it was Muriel Poston who had heard him speak at a botanical conference and said, “Sue, get this guy here!” [laughs] And, I got huge backlash because he was not an academic. She didn’t care because she saw he was doing science, but my department didn’t even frickin’ come to the talk. Yeah. So that’s a little aside, but anyway. So we’re seeing this push and the fungi … because we’re now going underground, right? So there’s always a frontier in science. So the frontier while I was at Skidmore was into the cells, into the DNA, right? And now the frontier is, we’ve gone to space, we’ve gone to the oceans [laugh], now the frontier’s beneath our feet. It is soil. We know nothing about the soil. And our farming and agricultural practices, way back from the fertile crescent in Mesopotamia, was wrong. To plow the earth destroyed all that mycorrhizal fungal thread network. And all the carbon plants … I just learned this year! I was a botanist — I just learned this year that plants are sending 40 percent of the sugars they make through photosynthesis to the roots! We’re all above ground people, we just see what’s above ground, right? “That’s a tree! Who cares about the roots! We know they’re there, okay!” No, 40 percent of what’s manufactured, the manufacturing plant is, which is making the sugars that the rest of life depends on, is being sent to the roots, and not to the roots but to the fungi and the bacteria in the root system, the mycorrhizal connections. And that is why our carbon dioxide in the universe is out of balance, right? 70 percent of carbon dioxide belongs in the soil. And because of … not because of burning fossil fuels, that’s only 5 percent, but because of our agricultural practices, where we till and we lay bare — you drove over here today, you saw bare fields, driving over here today — we lay bare fields, that means there’s no microbial life in those fields, and if there is any, it’s off gassing CO2 like crazy through respiration. That is where the CO2 is coming from. That’s where the bulk of it is coming from. I’ve spent the last five years reading my head off about this and studying this, because it ties my whole life together. And so … we need to stop the fossil fuel emissions, right, to stop the source, one of the sources, from going up in the atmosphere, but doing that doesn’t do anything with the carbon that’s already there. It’s going to take another 800 years for that carbon to go somewhere. So, putting it back in the soil, within two years, if we put two percent of the carbon, two percent, that’s all, back in the soil, we can bring the parts per million back down to 350 parts per million within 10 years. We can reverse �climate change in 10 years. And guess what? Our new president understands this. And this trend into the soil, this new frontier, is happening fast. Within five years it’s happened. Normally it takes … so I mentioned the first climate change report about excessive carbon dioxide, went to President Johnson’s desk in 1965! I have known about it since then. I have been teaching about it since then. That’s 50 years! And it took us that long, and it’s like kinda too late, right? But it’s not too late, because this whole soil story is catching on like wildfire, and there are bills in state legislatures and there are bills in Congress now and it’s just exciting. And guess what? It’s because of the fungi!!! AW: [laughs] So, as if you weren’t excited enough! [both laugh]. Um, you left Skidmore after 18 years and began yet another career. You’ve had a multi-career lifespan, which I think is very fascinating, and you went to work on fungi with Evo-cative? Evocative? SVH: Ecovative. AW: Ecovative, excuse me. It’s a challenging name. So, I want you to tell me a little bit about that, and maybe, it sounds like that sort of encompasses a lot of — it drew a common thread through a lot of your experiences. SVH: I’ll tell you how the transition happened, but just two days ago, I came full circle with that company. I’m writing a book about it and I’m nearing …progress, nearing ending progress on it, but two days ago I got up really early, 6:30, and I drove up to Merck Forest, and — I mentioned Merck Forest before, up in Rupert, Vermont — a 3,000-acre preserve. And, I’m becoming the new president of the board there in another couple of days. [laughs] AW: Congratulations. SVH: Thank you — my fifth career [laughs]. And I picked up the farm truck and I drove the farm truck down to Troy to Green Island, where Ecovative is, to pick up their waste product, which is spent oyster mushroom substrate that they’ve grown the new “My bacon” meat alternative on. So, I’m holding in my hands this mushroom that I brought out of the woods, by myself, in 2007 … brought it in to culture. That is now getting cloned into “myco-bacon,” “my bacon” and being sold at Honest Weight Food Co-Op in Albany for six months, and is now getting scaled nationally, in the next year, with a hundred million dollars of new investment. And I’m holding this thing, this strain, … and saying, “Yeah, I knew you had potential!” [laughs] AW: That’s great! SVH: So … so the way I got there is just the best story, and it will be in the book, is in the book, and it’s also in the New Yorker magazine article about Ecovative that came out on March … on May 20th, 2013, called Farm and Function, and there’s a big part of that story. And also, this story is also in Fungi Magazine — I can’t remember what year — it was a couple of years after that. So, I’m a lucid dreamer and I’m studying dream … dreaming techniques with an international dream teacher who’s written all the books, Robert Moss, who happens to live in Albany. And I’m at one of his workshops up at Gore Mountain, and the message I get at one of the exercises that we did, which was creating a synchronicity card deck, was “life is �mushrooming.” And I picked my own card out of the deck, and he said, “If you pick your own card, it’s serious business — you’d better do what the card says!” AW: [laughs] SVH: So I had … my question was — this was November 2005. My question was, “what is the next creative phase of my life?” I was already feeling that Skidmore was dwindling. And, “what is the next creative phase of my life?” Now maybe I’ve got one more shot at one more career. That was my question and I picked my own card, “life is mushrooming,” that I’d written. And, so I’m like, “Okay, what does that mean for me?” So, that Monday I called Paul Stamets in Washington State and I said, “Paul, you don’t remember me from 30 years ago but we were in 4H together” and I said, “I want to take your Mychorestoration and Mycoremediation course on how to heal ecosystems using fungi. That’s what your book is about. That’s what I want to do. I have enough background; I can pull this off. It marries my environmentalism with my mycology.” And he said, “Yeahhh … no, no, you’ve got to come take the beginner seminar first.” I said, “Paul, come on, I have a graduate degree in mycology. I know how to culture fungi.” He goes, “Yeahhh, but there’s some little tidbits you need to know. You need to come do the beginner’s seminar.” So I go out there in March of 2006, borrow my sister-in-law’s car in Portland, Oregon, drive up to the Olympic Peninsula, take the course — I’m practically teaching lab, he says, “Sue, can you help out those people there? Sue, can you help out those people there?” Thirty people! And I come home with 12 fungi that he gave us, in test tubes. And so I went back three months later, in June, to take the other course, and came home with even more. So I thought, “Ok, I’m going to now go out in the woods and build my own strain library.” And David had given me a little cinderblock room in the back of the greenhouse [laughs] that I could call home. We were actually doing our slug experiments in there, too, [laughs] so I’ve had it for a while. And I said, “I just need a refrigerator please,” and so I got permission to be in somebody’s refrigerator and I started collecting fungi and building a strain library. And, low and behold, Karen sticks an article in … a year later, in June of 2007, on my door, at the end of the semester: “RPI Grads Grow Mushroom Insulation Board.” And I walked past it for four days, because I was busy with summer school or whatever, and finally on Friday I sat down and read it and went “Oh my God! I have to meet these people!” [laughs] So I found them through the staff directory, they are faculty members, and got hold of them and, in the meantime — my first email with Eben, one of the two guys, was on Wednesday and we’d arranged for a call on Friday, and on Thursday, in between, I went out to the North Woods with the Thursday Naturalists, who’s a group of octogenarians, average age octogenarians, who I’ve been botanizing with for years — and Skidmore woods is one their favorite places to come — and that particular day was in June, we were going to look for the 33 species of ferns, and we found them all. And, not only did we find them all, but I’m having this conversation with Win Bigelow, he says, “Sue, what do you know about chaga?” and I said, “Well I’ve just learned about chaga because Jackie Donnelly picked me up and took me to this thing growing on a tree and we had, and we…” you know, did that. So, I’m talking to Win about the chaga and we get down to wayyy back in the corner of the woods by the Middle School, and we are going into this one glade to find silver spleenwort. And I’m at the end and the person in front of me is 96-year-old Sally Ingalls, with her walking stick and her hand lens, and I’m looking at her and I’m going, “You’re my idol, you’re my idol! I’m going to be you; I’m going to be you!” [laughs]. So I’m the last person in line and we’d just talked about chaga and here’s this yellow birch and there’s a chaga mushroom right there! And �it’s low on the tree — usually they’re up high, and it’s low! And so I had my little Canon Power shot, and I knelt down and I’m looking at this chaga and it’s like, “Hmm, this looks like a portal, there’s like a chunk of it over here and a chunk of it over on the other side and there’s like a little black frame around in the middle — I’m going to just take a picture of this!” So I knelt down, I looked through my camera, and this face appears! I’m going to show you the picture, I have it upstairs. This face — you can put it in the article — this face appears and it’s this Indigenous elder with big bushy eyebrows and a pointy chin and a beard and it passes through the portal in my viewfinder, it just moves right through there, and I snapped and I got the face. And I’m like, “Whooo, I’m getting chills! The fungi are talking to me! They’re giving me some big information here!” On the heels of my dreaming thing and on the heels of going out to Paul, who’s very dreamy, and has done his share of hallucinogenic tripping [laughs]…most of where his ideas come from. And, I’m like, “Okay, I’m really getting a hit here!” And so I just, I just keep it all to myself and I go up to the other people and they found the silvery spleenwort and we look at it, dah dah dah, and I come home. That night I go for a walk at ten o’clock at night because there’s a full moon and I… you know my husband and I had just had an argument about determinate versus indeterminate tomatoes and which ones we’re going to plant and I said, “This is ridiculous, I’m going for a walk.” And I’m going out to the cemetery, where it’s my favorite place to walk, and there’s this snake on the side of the road doing this “death dance.” It’s a snake I’ve never seen before but I instinctively know it’s a milk snake, it was broad white and brown banded. I said, “I think you’re a milk snake but it doesn’t matter, you’re a snake and you’re doing this thing and … straight up in the air and then falling on your head and straight up in the air and falling on your head," I’m like, “this is kind of like … what is going on?” So then I just, I said, “I’m leaving,” so I go to my tree, I’m hugging my tree and leaning on my tree and I’m watching the moon and then “Okay, time to go back.” And I come back and I’m like a little bit afraid to see where this snake is next. This snake … freaks me out. This snake has made itself into the shape of a heart, which snakes don’t do. And I get down on my hands and knees to see where the head and tail were. It had bit its tail with its head, and the middle of the snake was the groove in the top of the heart. I’m like, “You shouldn’t be bending right there like that.” So this is like a special message to Sue from snake medicine spirit … and I thought it was just, “Go home and be loved, be loving to your husband, forget the stupid argument.” No, it wasn’t that. I mean I did that anyway, but it wasn’t that. [laughs] This, you know, so snake medicine is about shedding your old skin, transformation, new life ahead, all of this messaging coming through. And we had seen a giant water snake on that field trip that day. And it wasn’t in Wilson Marsh, it was way up on a rocky outcrop where it shouldn’t have been so that it caught our attention. Anyway, so two snakes in one day, and then, so I'm like, “This message is, ‘be what you love. Do what you love the most.’ This is what the snake is telling me.” So, that’s Thursday night. So Friday morning I’m driving to Skidmore, I’m going to have this first phone call with Eben, this cool guy, this cool young guy, and I’m like, “Oh, I’ve got to go see the snake.” [laughs] And the snake wasn’t there, it was up this friend’s driveway, in a straight line, it had crawled out from underneath a little juniper bush, and I’m like, I got down on my knees and, “Are you alive or are you dead, snake?” It was dead and little ants were feeding on it. I’m like, “I witnessed your death dance, you gave me a message before you died. [laughs] You’re telling me to do what I love. This is pretty cool.” So my first conversation, right out of the blocks, I just said, “Hi. Why are you using a commodity, a food commodity and not a waste product?” [laughs] That’s the first words out of �my mouth, because they were using … they had taken flour and water and pearlite, you know, the white stuff in potting soil for holding water, and oyster mushroom spores they ordered off the Internet to make this board. I said, “You shouldn’t be using food. This feeds people.” They go, “We already switched. We already switched. We are using agricultural crop waste.” I said, “Oh good.” I said, “So what are you looking for…” And they’re looking for … “in your strains? Like what are you looking for?” And they’re, “We want it to be dense, fast growing and really strong.” I’m like, “Do you know anything about fungi?” “No, we’re engineers.” I’m like, “And you’re starting a company to grow fungi, is that correct?” “Yes, it is!” [laughs]. And so, I said, “So how far are you along are you?” He said, “Well we filed the provisional patents and we have some lawyers and we have business plans,” and I said, “Oh that’s good, because I don’t know any of that stuff and nor do I want to. But I do know the part about the fungi and I’d be happy to work with you.” And so by the end of an hour and a half call, …and I told him the whole story about the snake and the chaga, because if he didn’t … if he balked at that then I didn’t want to work with these guys. But he is a lucid dreamer too, so he was like on the edge of his seat on his end of the phone line and I could tell. And like, “Okay, we can do this. We can marry our interests here.” So I worked for them. I grew … so when I went upstairs to Bill Tomlinson, we arranged a transfer of biological materials agreement between the two colleges, because they were in the incubator at RPI still, and I grew their spawn for the first two years. So I grew all their fungi, and I grew them with my strains, and … in our autoclave. [laughed] I processed them in our autoclave and then I delivered them or they’d come up and pick them up. I taught them all of their sterile technique and I taught them all the names, all the biology of the fungi, and I mentored and mentored and mentored and mentored and mentored. For nothing! [laughs] Because I’m a teacher, right? I kick myself — if I had any business sense whatsoever, I would have charged them for all of this information. [laughs] AW: You would have been a partner. [laughs] SVH: I would have been a full-fledged third partner. How dumb was I? Where are my spirit guides now, like, “You’re supposed to be helping me here!” [laughs] So anyway, I gave it all for free, and … whatever, I’ve never been about money in my life, ever, in anything I’ve done. In fact, every … of the four jobs I’ve had has been the trail-blazing position. I’ve been the trail blazer and I’ve left and the next person makes two or three times what I made. So it’s not, it’s not what I’m here for on the planet. AW: Right. SVH: So anyway, this story got better and better. So, I’m still teaching, so this is 2007 to 2010. I’m still growing their stuff, teaching them, engaging our students, and then … 2008 we applied for our first EPA grant. And they tried once on their own and didn’t get it [laughs] and so they called me up and they said, “Ahh, we need your gray hairs.” [laughs] And, so I was the PI on the first EPA grant, and then we got a Skidmore student, Dawn Harfmann, Tom Harfmann’s daughter, from IT, and she and I worked on it for six months and then she came and worked with us, upon graduating. And now I got Gordon MacPhearson to do the USDA grant the following summer. So I was still using Skidmore facilities, Skidmore students, and it was just a wonderful situation. And then, I … we got the grant, so I had to go do the grant, right? So I had to take a leave of absence, unpaid, because we didn’t get sabbaticals as TAs. And so that was all arranged, �and I went in January of 2009 through the summer and did the grant. I got paid a little more than I would have teaching kids at Skidmore, that was fine, so that’s good. And then I get back on campus and the first faculty meeting in the fall of 2009 and Phil gets up and says, “You know we’re in … we’ve had an economic recession for 2007, 8 and 9 and we just have to lay some people off — we have to get rid of 70 people.” I don’t know if you remember that? AW: I do. SVH: Yeah. And he said, “But, we’re going to be able to do it voluntarily with a little bit of a bonus incentive for getting out the door.” It was a great … it was a big bonus, as it turns out. “And, in order to apply for this voluntarily you have to be at least 55 and you have to have worked here for 15 years. So I was turning 55 the next month and I had 15 years, no I had 17 years in. I had 17 years in then. “Ahhhh, spirit, you told me it’s time to shift. Ahh, this is like a pretty graceful way to do it with a little extra cash on the way out the door. Am I supposed to do this?” “Yeah, you’d better apply.” [laughs] There were six of us in the Bio Department who could have applied. I was the only one who did, and it was competitive — more than 70 people applied. So, I got it, and I still smile at the grace … this graceful transition that was no stress. And so the message for me in my whole healing journey from the breast cancer has been to listen to your heart more. I mean, I get to see my heart beat every day, because I’m missing one, and so it … you know, in academia we are so in our heads all the time, it’s like, balance your head and your heart, people. And when you do, things are easy, they’re not hard and challenging, the spirit is on your side. They want this abundance for you, they want this thing that you’re on the earth to do, for you. Stay out of the way! Stay out of the way! And when you stay out of the way it is fun! It’s like magic! You get snakes doing dances. And you, I mean, you meet chaga men in the woods, and … it’s just beautiful! And so that was my fourth transition to this new thing I’d never done called business! AW: [Laughs] SVH: And it turns out that I was, like, teaching all the science there, mentoring all these people. I mean, we grew slowly at first and then it was like, boom! Up to 60 employees. During the recession, we were up to 60 employees, which was pretty … Paul Tonko came and cut our ribbon. [laughs] And so this company is coming into its own now. We were, 10 years before its time in growing mushroom packaging to replace Styrofoam. Completely compostable, 100 percent plants and fungus, no waste product, throw it in your garden, throw it in your mulch, thing. That’s taken a decade to catch on and now it’s really catching on. And it’s now, all that has been licensed to a company in California. They don’t even do it any more here. So now they’ve moved on to alternative meats, and that is going to be mind blowing and successful too. So. AW: Um, Sue, we have been chatting for quite a while and it’s been wonderful, it’s been fun. I’m just, I just want to ask you if there’s any … we’ve only touched on so many things, but if there’s anything that I didn’t mention that you feel is particularly essential to mention now, this is the moment! [laughs] You’ve had a very colorful, very innovative career, and a big chunk of it spent at Skidmore for the enrichment of the college and the student community. I just want to be sure I haven’t forgotten anything that you’ll think about later and say, “Oh gosh, I wish I’d �mentioned this.” SVH: Well I feel really honored that I’ve gotten to share what’s kept me really excited and engaged in this retirement. And I retired from Skidmore in 2016, so I didn’t really retire until then. And I was a healing touch practitioner at the office of Ecovative. I saw 60 employees on my massage table. They realized the benefits of caring for ourselves. And so a big, one of the big things I did there, and I think I did at Skidmore and I think I did everywhere I’ve been … “Oh hello helicopter!” [laughs] [loud helicopter flying overhead] Um, I’m just going to wait … So one of the biggest things I’ve done all throughout my career is care for people. And, I miss the students tremendously, every one of them. You know, I had a big transition, a BIG transition when I went to teach in Environmental Science. Because I came, …you know, you gravitate to people who are most like you, right? So I was a top A student, I mean I was the top grade in my class all throughout my career. And so I gravitated to those kids, the super performers in our labs, and I took care of the other people, but like I really gave a little extra encouragement, I wanted them to really succeed. There was one other student I want to mention, that was transformative for me. She had cerebral palsy, and she was also the daughter of a staff member. I had her for two semesters and … I was told, “Do what you can to accommodate her.” She could barely walk and I had to have a bed in the lab. And in the fall lab we were doing the bee experiments outside, and I said, “I’m going to find a way to get you into the woods to paint bees.” And at the time I had inherited my mom’s old Dodge K-car station wagon, which was kind of on its last legs, so I put a mattress in the back of the station wagon, and we got her down the elevator and got her into the back of the car and I drove her out into the woods. And it was a time where the roads were in good-enough shape, it was down where the new student dorms are now, it was down in that section of the woods, and the roads had not eroded, where I could drive her right to where we were doing the experiments. And then for the next semester her lab was in the prep room in the Plant Biology class, and I spent hundreds and hundreds of hours … digital photography in the microscope was new, and I put the camera in the microscope and I scanned every single microscope slide that we looked at the whole semester, at low magnification, middle magnification and high magnification so that she could see absolutely everything that the students saw. And I filmed all of this, so that took me hours of my own time, and then I … while she’s lying in bed I’m talking her through it, so I taught another three-hour lab to her every week individually. She invited me to her PhD graduation party … where she walked, was walking beautifully. PhD in neuroscience so that she could understand her illness! And … it was at the Parting Glass down in Saratoga, and I brought my whole family with me. I said, “Kids, you’ve got to meet this woman. You’ve got to meet this woman.” So those are the things that you teach for. And … yeah, I miss the students. AW: That’s an awesome story, and very moving, Sue. I want to thank you for sharing that, I want to thank you for being a good teacher and a great colleague for many years at Skidmore. I’ll sign off now. END � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Andrea Wise Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sue Van Hook Location The location of the interview Cambridge, NY 12816 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:13:01 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit October 25, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sue Van Hook Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 3, 2021 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource A member of the Biology Department faculty from 1992 to 2010, Sue Van Hook was a senior teaching associate specializing in botany and mycology. She was a leader in campus sustainability projects and in the stewardship of Skidmore’s North Woods. In 2007 Sue produced "Treasures in the North Woods: A guide to the natural campus at Skidmore College" in collaboration with students, staff, and faculty spouses. This interview was recorded on the porch of Sue’s home in Cambridge, N.Y., on June 3, 2021. [The interview has been slightly edited for length.] Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Biology Department Campus Culture Campus Environment Committee Collaborative Research Curriculum David Porter Diversity Growth in Science North Woods Opportunity Program Phil Glotzbach Phyllis Roth Student Faculty Relations https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/878e3a4fa806b9605ac6f26942f32606.jpg 128109595eac0e28fe95caae0b107653 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/481f4b8849648292837e96bc57e93349.m4a 69d3219334afbfa528baa2511fdfdb5a https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/0015f5078efa840e8d501ff9137ae0b5.pdf f91bf649c477a6c5293ca2442c876b1b PDF Text Text Interviewee: Patricia Rubio Years at Skidmore: 1985 - 2016 Interviewers: Lynne Gelber and Susan Bender Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: April 14, 2021 00:00:00 Header 00:00:33 Born in Valparaíso, Chile; lived in Viña del Mar; attended small, multilingual, private K-12 school in Valparaíso. 00:01:28 Attended Universidad Católica de Valparaíso - 5 year program for a degree in Spanish 00:02:12 Applied for/received Fulbright Scholarship to attend University of Minnesota 00:03:00 Planned return to Valparaíso to teach, but 1973 military coup changed University situation and prevented return. 00:03:35 March 1974 joined Juan Carlos in Spain and they married there in June 1974 00:03:50 Lived in Barcelona for a year and a half; applied to graduate programs in Canada; attended University of Alberta/lived 5 years in Edmonton. 00:04:41 Came to Skidmore September 1980. Juan Carlos taught and Paty completed dissertation; both applied for green cards; daughter Camila born June 1982. 00:05:35 Because couldn’t return to Chile, had intentionally staggered dissertation completions, so if 1st MLA search unsuccessful, they could stay in Canada while Paty completed dissertation. 00:06:28 In 1984 Paty taught a semester at Middlebury College, VT. Paty & Camila moved to VT, Juan Carlos spent weekends there. 00:07:34 Paty applied to positions at Skidmore and Russel Sage. Offered both; chose Skidmore. 00:08:02 Visa and citizenship processes expensive, time consuming. 00:08:53 Now hiring institutions pay the fees; that has helped Skidmore draw foreign faculty. 00:09:39 Taught 101 - 300 level classes in Spanish American literature and culture. 101 is favorite “because students are a clean linguistic slate and they have a sense that they’re really making progress throughout the semester.” 00:10:33 The few Hispanic undergraduate students at that time “gravitated towards Spanish.” 00:11:30 The Spanish-speaking students had stronger oral skills than grammatical; therefore different needs than the non-Spanish speaking students. 00:12:41 Other roles: 1987-1990 coordinated Self Instructional Languages Program (SILP). 00:14:11 In SILP, students develop oral skills using recordings, a curriculum, and meetings with tutors, most of whom are native speakers. 00:17:00 Also: directed Women’s Studies program, chaired Foreign Languages & Literatures Department for 5 years; Associate Dean of the Faculty for 7 years, was Acting Dean when President Phil Glotzbach went on sabbatical. 00:17:50 Helped move Women’s Studies program from a minor to a major, establishing a curriculum in Women’s Studies. 00:18:31 Goal of Women’s Studies 101: provide overview of the field and current/evolving issues, so covered wide range of topics - theoretical, historical, sociological, political. 00:19:27 In June 1997 brought National Association for Women’s Studies’ annual conference to Skidmore. Collaborated with Special Programs and with Women’s Studies faculty to create program. Great ideas - art exhibits, a film program, a book show, presentations, keynotes, etc. 00:24:44 Challenging, but “I discovered I could do this!” Phyllis Roth empowering influence. �00:25:30 Also, administrator roles were empowering — could improve things for the department. Example - stabilizing adjunct courses by making full-time adjunct positions. 00:27:55 Became Associate Dean when Muriel Poston was Dean. Learned to look at things from broader perspective. 00:30:00 Rubio (from Humanities), Poston (from Sciences) perfect team b/c balanced qualitative & quantitative. Learned how to put problems in context to see various repercussions of small decisions for the departments and college. 00:31:32 As administrator, saw Skidmore as a whole Institution,… possibilities, strengths, weaknesses, places to concentrate, who to talk to, who can help? 00:32:00 “It’s fascinating! … those seven years that I was in the Dean’s office, I liked every single one. … I just loved every minute of it.” 00:32:38 Interest in diversity arose first with students — realizing how the Latino students felt… that one of the reasons they came to study Spanish is because they found people like them. 00:33:53 Latino Cultural Society was first Latino student organization - evolved into RAICES. 00:34:17 Another source of interest in diversity was the program itself - Foreign languages … by definition [a] diverse topic …foreign languages, foreign cultures. 00:34:35 And Muriel Poston herself; the first Black Dean of the Faculty in a mostly white institution & white community. Had to go to Glens Falls simply to get hair done. When Poston interviewed at Skidmore, she asked to meet with faculty of color. There were only 5 or 6. 00:35:17 Once Dean, Poston asked faculty to examine department hiring processes to determine usefulness in attracting faculty of color. 00:35:40 When Beau Breslin became Dean, he appointed [Rubio] Associate Dean for Diversity. Skidmore hired consultants to improve hiring processes. Success in that effort due in part to great support from Deans Muriel Poston and Beau Breslin and President Phil Glotzbach. 00:37:35 A position description/ad exhibits “the seriousness of the institution … in terms of hiring faculty of color.” Hiring processes changed, following consultant’s advice. 00:39:12 Retired 2016 00:41:03 Since retiring, annually travels to Chile for several months to help sister run her restaurant and to visit lifelong friends; in summers volunteers with Saratoga backstretch workers, teaching English as a second language; plays golf; on board of Saratoga Film Forum and Saratoga Chamber Players; passionate about working in yard and garden. 00:43:06 Also reads a lot. “Now I’d rather read than write. Juan Carlos taught me that. …at some point he said, ‘I’m done with research. I don’t want to write any more, I want to read.' And that makes sense to me now. It didn’t then but it makes sense to me now.” 00:44:21 END � https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/c65a837e139652e712cc71568c96093f.pdf d1c119146a7bb209bf72eb7cb8c16e85 PDF Text Text Interview with Patricia Rubio by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, April 14, 2021. LYNNE GELBER: This is Lynne Gelber. I am with Susan Bender. It is April 14th, 2021, and we are interviewing Patricia Rubio for the Oral History Project. So … PATRICIA RUBIO: Thank you for having me. LG: It’s our pleasure and thank you for doing this. PR: Well, my pleasure. LG: Patty, why don’t you tell us a little bit about where you were born and brought up and your early schooling. PR: Sure. I was born in Valparaíso, Chile, but lived from ages six to 23 in Viña del Mar. Valparaíso’s twin city. My three sisters and I went to a small private school in Valparaíso. There were about 600 students between kindergarten and 12th grade, and most of the instruction in elementary school was done in German. So, I was introduced to a foreign languages at age 5 in kindergarten. and graduated from this school thirteen years later with additional solid instruction in English which was introduced in seventh grade. I was very fortunate to have had access to that kind of education. Classes were very small, never more than fourteen to fifteen students; there were seven students in my senior class most of whom I had known since kindergarten or first grade. I interrupted my studies in my junior year to come to live with a family and attend high school in Storrs, CT. in 1962. This was also an important experience in my upbringing. After high school I entered college. LG: In Valparaíso? �PR: Yes. The college system in Chile follows the European model, which means that one has decided in one’s two last years of high school the career one will pursue. From very early in high school I knew that I wanted to teach and I liked literature and history so I pursued a degree in Spanish. So Spanish and Latin American literature and culture with a very solid foundation in syntax and linguistics. It’s a five-year program that included one year of Latin and Greek, theoretical linguistics, syntax and normative grammar. The objective of the program was to prepare students to teach the Spanish high school curriculum which included Spanish, Chilean and Spanish American literature plus Spanish grammar and writing. I had also made up my mind while in college, to pursue graduate study, at least a Masters degree. So, in my last year at the university, I applied for a Fulbright Scholarship which I received. LG: And that was at Valparaíso? PR: Yes, at the Universidad Católica de Valparaíso. In those days, this 1969-70, Fulbright assigned prospective students to graduate programs at Universities in the U.S.. In Chile I had begun to pursue an academic career through teaching assistant positions in Spanish American literature. I was approached to teach General Literature, and so a degree in Comparative literature was appropriate. The idea was that I would return from the U.S. with an M.A. to a position that included General Literature as part of my teaching duties. But things happened. The military took over the government in 1973, during my first semester at the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis. The situation at the University in Chile changed and I never returned. Instead of Chile, I left for Spain in March 1974, and married Juan Carlos in June of that year. �LG: In Barcelona? PR: In the Barcelona area. We lived in Barcelona for a year and a half, knowing that it was just a stop in the voyage, and went to Canada to pursue our PhDs in Hispanic literatures and the University of Alberta. We lived in Edmonton for five years which despite the extreme harsh winters we really enjoyed. We staged it so that Juan Carlos would defend his dissertation before I did so that we would have two possible hiring rounds for finding jobs in this part of the world. Jobs were not easy to find. Lynne, you were the chair of Modern Languages and Literatures then and you hired both of us. Thank you for having done so! LG: The rest is history! [laughter] LG: So, when you came here you were not initially teaching but then …? PR: Well, what happened is that Juan Carlos came with an H-1B visa, which allowed him to work and I had a visa that allowed me to live in the country but not to work. We applied for the green card in Juan Carlos’ second year here, had Camila, and waited patiently for the INS to do its work. The process was successful, and we became citizens five or six years later. LG: You came to Skidmore? PR: We both came to Skidmore in September 1980. LG: OK. PR: When we came, I was ABD, Juan Carlos had finished his degree. I had been awarded a thesis scholarship, which would have allowed us to stay for an additional year in Canada. In our first year here I completed the dissertation. I taught at Middlebury College in a one semester replacement in 1984. Camila, who was a toddler, and I moved to Vermont. LG: Camilla was born here. �PR: Yes. Remember LG: I do remember because we decorated the office. PR: [laughter] Yeah. Yes, she was born in June 1982. You gave Juan Carlos a really good schedule according to which he started teaching late on Mondays and ended early on Friday afternoon so that he would be able to drive to Middlebury to spend the weekend with us. It was a tough semester. I had never taught in the US; they had hired me because they needed someone who would be able to teach Spanish American Culture and Civilization. Every class was a new prep. I remember spending every Saturday at the library preparing classes, while Juan Carlos took care of Camila. Sunday was a family day. After we obtained our permanent visa, I applied for several positions in the area, including Skidmore. The faculty had changed the curriculum and passed a foreign language requirement. So the department needed to hire two additional faculty and, as I said before, you hired me. I also had an offer from Russel Sage but of course I chose Skidmore. LG: Thank goodness! PR: Either before or after Middlebury, but during the visa process during which I was allowed to work, you hired me to teach part time: one Spanish language course each in the fall and the spring. If I remember well, it was Intermediate Spanish. LG: As I recall, we were able to use the services of the lawyer for the College, in Glens Falls. PR: That was in order to get the renewal of Juan Carlos’ H-1B. We hired a lawyer from Albany to help us with the application process for the residency visa. In those days, the Institution didn’t have to pay for the process. After the immigration law changed, the hiring institution is responsible for the fees �which are very high. We are fortunate that Skidmore has been able to do that because it explains in part the success the institution has had in hiring foreign faculty in the past five years. A good number of the foreign faculty come with an H1-B visas which is the entry way to permanent residency. LG: I vaguely remember that. PR: Yes. LG: So what courses were you teaching? PR: Where? LG: At Skidmore. PR & LG: [laughter] LG: Thank you. PR: That’s O.K. Well you know that in our department, everyone teaches the whole gamut of courses So I taught beginning Spanish and all the way up to 300 level classes including Spanish American literature and culture. LG: And what were your favorite? PR: My favorite? I always liked to teach 101, because students are a clean linguistic slate, and they have a sense that they’re really making progress throughout the semester. The more fortunate ones, during Christmas break, would travel to a Spanish speaking country where they realized that they could read a menu, could be really helpful to their families in negotiating the cities, reading signs, etc... This was a powerful experience and they would come back really energized and ready for more. LG: How many Hispanic students were there in the undergraduate population at that point? PR: Few. They gravitated towards Spanish courses, thinking that being Latino also meant being Latin American; and some were immigrants themselves. It was very nice to have, particularly at the upper level, students from diverse �backgrounds. They contributed points of view and diverse ideas to class discussion. At the upper level, that is in literature and culture and civ courses, there were always a number of native Spanish speakers, and that was also nice. In these classes we read sophisticated materials and they were able to help their classmates to plough through the texts. Nowadays Latino students are aware of their identity as citizens of this country. Many take Spanish classes because they want to increase their language abilities and learn about their cultural and family backgrounds. LG: As I recall, those students had an oral knowledge. Is that correct? Yes, they did. Their oral skills outperformed their ability to write correctly in Spanish. Often first or second-generation students had the most difficulties because they were fluent but their knowledge of the language was not normative; their grammar was not accurate. Our curriculum back then was mostly intended for non-native speakers and those courses were in many ways not well suited for students who had leaned Spanish at home without formal instruction. LG: And they didn’t have any grammar skills? PR: Most of them did not. The grammar accuracy was all over the place [laughter]. LG & SUE BENDER: [laughter] SB: Spanglish. PR: [laughter] Well, a lot of Spanglish, like, “How are you?” “Nada mucho,” which in Spanish means, “he or she swims a lot.” Very difficult linguistic habits to undo. But this was the Spanish they heard and spoke in their communities, and it worked for them. Many of them were eager to learn normative grammar. �I also very much liked teaching mixed populations of students: US majority students with Latino students. LG: So you had other responsibilities in the course of your career? PR: Yes. it started with the Self-Instructional Languages program. You appointed me as coordinator in 1987 a position that I held until 1990. Sonja Karsen had established the program in the seventies and coordinated it until she retired. LG: Sonja Karsen, who was the … chair of the department? PR: For twenty-two years, right? LG: Until … PR: Until she stepped down and you became chair. LG: Yeah … PR: The Self-Instructional Languages program contributed to the language offerings of the department. It included, LG: Arabic and Hebrew. PR: Yes, Japanese, Chinese, Portuguese and Russian. LG: Russian, how could I forget? PR: We then added Korean and Sanskrit. SILP was and continues to be a very successful program, it allows the College to offer twelve languages, which is impressive. And it is popular program with students. Years after I had stepped down and began to chair the department, the program was enrolling close to 80 students. The SILP languages continue to be a venue for the fulfillment of the language requirement. LG: Say one or two words about what the Self-Instructional Language Program is. PR: Sure. The focus is on developing aural and oral skills. Students meet with a tutor (most tutors are native speakers), twice a week for an hour. Students have to have prepared the material before coming to the tutoring session, �thus the name of the program. At the tutoring session, they discuss and practice material, and agree on the assignment for the following week. Tutors guide and monitor students’ progress. During my time with the program, students had a textbook and tapes as learning materials. They followed the curriculum developed by the Self Instructional Languages Association. Tutoring groups are small, not to exceed 5 students per language section. When the number of registered students exceeded five, as it often happened in Hebrew, for example, students were placed into parallel sections. This allowed for ample time for discussion and practice and ultimately students had more one-on-one time with the tutor than in a regular class that met three times a week with 15 students. LG: And the instructor is a native speaker except for Sanskrit. PR: And Arabic and Hebrew PR: The person who tutors in Arabic, has a doctorate in Arabic linguistics, and the person in Hebrew, although she was not from Israel, was very successful and probably the longest serving tutor in the program. Both were there when I took over the coordination of the program and remained long after I had stepped down. I believe that Regina Hurwitz still tutors Arabic. LG: Well … PR: At the end of the semester students were tested by an outside examiner. The SILP Association helped us to identify potential outside examiners when necessary. The Japanese examiner came from Cornell, the one for Hebrew from the State University at Buffalo, the examiner for Russian from the U of Albany, etc. LG: And what was your role? PR: As coordinator I met with each student interested in the SILP language before �they registered in order to explain how the program functioned and what their responsibilities would be. It was important for them to understand, for example, that the grade they received in the final exam was the grade for the course. That they needed to work diligently during the semester even if they were not being tested periodically for a grade. Any testing given during the semester was only diagnostic. The program was not open to first year students. The thinking was that there are too many claims on their time that could interfere with the independent study of the language. I also coordinated the tutoring schedules and liaised with the Registrar’s Offic. I hired the examiners and set the final exam schedule. Examiners often were not local. I was also the person to go for tutors and students in case of grievances or problems. LG: What other roles did you have in the course of your career? PR: I directed the Women’s Studies program for four years, succeeding Mary Stange who had been the first director of the program. I thoroughly enjoyed this assignment. A number of my courses in the Foreign Languages and Literatures department counted towards the WS minor and the major. During my time as director, the faculty approved the major. During my time as director, we expanded the WS curriculum to include one intermediate level course and the senior seminar. The WS faculty was very supportive of the various initiatives that we pursued and contributed to various tasks when necessary. Although the program had existed for over a decade, it cemented its place among other interdisciplinary programs once the major was approved. The generation of women faculty that preceded me, and most of whom were tenured professors before I joined the College in 1984, had worked hard in building the program. Most of them were very committed to �enriching and delivering the curriculum, advising students, supervising theses, and in mentoring incoming women faculty. . When I stepped down from WS I became chair of the FLL, a position I occupied for five years. I then became Associate Dean of the Faculty a position I held for seven years. LG: What was, do you think, in all those years, your biggest challenge? PR: Every administrative position brought different challenges; that is what made each so interesting; everyone presented opportunities for professional and personal growth. For example, when I became WS director, the program was ready to move from a minor to a major. The proposal for the major was a collective WS faculty undertaking spearheaded by Kate Berheide and myself. Kate, a professor in Sociology, had experience in WS program design. The WS faculty, had a central role in the discussion and approval of the final proposal. The process took over a year from start to finish, that is from when we began to work on the proposal to college faculty approval. We needed to have all our ducks in a row as we knew that we would face some opposition from a number of principally male segments of the faculty. Although the vote was not unanimous the proposal passed by a sizable majority. It would be interesting to revisit the minutes of that Faculty Meeting. As a result of the major’s approval, student interest in WS grew so that it became necessary, for example, to offer two sections of WS 101 every semester. This was huge because we were able to increase the number of students interested in pursuing the major or minor. On average, during my time as director, we majored about 8 students per year, which was not small for an interdisciplinary program. �LG: Did you teach the 101 course? PR: Yes, I did for the four years I headed the program. It loved the course; the curriculum was broad and interesting; student interest was high and 101 engaged them in a journey of discovery regarding their own identity as women. Although the majority of students were women, there were one or two men per year who were curious took it. There were no male majors during my time s director. LG: And generally, what kinds of things did you cover in that course? PR: It included the history of the US women’s and feminist movements; women’s political struggles and involvement in the fight for the vote, the ERA. Their participation in the antislavery and temperance movements. We studied feminist theory; the history of women’s pursuit for the control of our bodies; the political, social and personal consequences of women’s social roles in patriarchal societies and in the patriarchal workplace; the intersections between gender, race, ethnicity and class. We also read literature, notedly Atwood’s A Handmaid’s Tale; some poetry. The objective of the course was for students to understand the discipline; the areas of knowledge that define Women’s Studies. To provide a solid base for the rest of the curriculum. LG: Now, what do you recall from those years that you were directing the Women’s Studies program? PR: I recall many things. I recall the importance for the institution of having a vibrant, energetic community of female faculty. We built community by means of, for example, weekly brown-bag lunches, two WS potluck dinners per year which were open to students and staff as well; faculty meetings to discuss issues pertaining the program: curriculum, staffing needs, program objectives, invited speakers, etc. These were always occasions to welcome and recruit incoming faculty, to learn about each other’s teaching and �research. Students were involved in several of these activities: they were part of the Steering committee, and as I have said6 invited to WS sponsored activities. In terms of challenges, the four-day National Women’s Studies Association meeting, in June 1997 was huge. Phyllis Roth, then Dean of the Faculty and Vice-president of Academic Affairs. was approached by Marjorie Prise, then President of the NWSA, about the possibility of hosting the 1997 annual meeting. Marjorie was then Professor of English at the University of Albany, and I was incoming director of Women’s Studies. Phyllis consulted with Mary and me, and we decided to accept the challenge. And a challenge it was!! Mary went on sabbatical and I attended the NWSA 1995 meeting at the University of Oklahoma, in order to meet with members of the NWSA leadership, and to observe how the conference was structured and ran. There were over 500 participants at the Tulsa meeting, and we needed to plan for similar attendance at Skidmore. It exceeds the scope of this interview to detail what the planning and organization for the conference entailed. Suffice it to say that central to its success was the active involvement of the WS faculty, and the collaboration with Sharon Arpey in Special Programs. The Women’s Studies faculty and I worked on the ‘academic’ program, while Sharon Arpey undertook the ‘non-academic’ aspects of the event (housing, food, infrastructure, etc.). She and I worked closely for two years. The conference included a film program, a sculpture show in South Park, a women-faculty art show in Schick Gallery, a large book exhibit in the gym, dozens and dozens of presentations, several keynote speakers, and a healthy dose of minor controversies. �LG: So you were coordinating, what, with the library and with the Tang? PR: The Tang did not exist back then; we had an exhibit at the library on women in Skidmore’s history organized by Mary Lynn who, with some of her students drew materials from the College archive. LG: OK LG: It sounds like it was most fun. PR: Yes, it was. I also discovered that I could successfully work on a large project. At first, when Phyllis said that it would be my undertaking, I said, “Sure, why not” and when I left her office I thought, “By golly! What did I just get into? LG: Very empowering, isn’t it? PR: Yes, it was, and I thank Phyllis for having given me the opportunity and for having confidence in me. Typical Phyllis: she gave opportunities for people to grow and develop. I remember in my first year chatting with her while we walked across campus; at some point she said, “Well, you know, in the future you’ll be chair of the department,” and I thought, Really? Am I hearing right? So going back to your earlier question, Lynne, of major challenges, every one of the positions presented worthy challenges. Chairing the FLL was also a huge challenge. But by then I had discovered that I could be an effective administrator and I wanted to be chair. I had also learned that I could work with various individuals, even with those with whom I was not particularly simpatico. All of that was very empowering, as you said before, and I needed every bit of that experience as head of the FLL. You were chair of the department for a good chunk of time, you know how complicated it is to head a multi-section department; every section has its needs, the whole is �larger than the sum of its parts. I always thought that one of the main challenges in the department was the imbalance of its structure: two large section, French and Spanish, and four smaller sections, Chinese, Japanese, German and Italian, three of which were unevenly staffed. So when Chuck Joseph who was Dean of the Faculty interviewed me for the position, I told him that one of my objectives as chair would be to stabilize the small sections. So that they would feel better in the department, not overwhelmed by the two large sections. It was hard to keep the department engaged in everything, knowing that colleagues in the small sections, often felt that their voices were not as strong as those in the large sections. So I said to Chuck “There are three sections — Japanese, Chinese, and German — that only have one full time faculty and also adjuncts; it is always a problem in Saratoga find good adjuncts for those positions. I told him that I wanted to upgrade the second position to full-time. It would also free tenure and tenure track faculty to participate in the delivery if the all-College requirement. He agreed, and we created a second full-time position in German, Japanese and Chinese. Italian had been stabilized when Giuseppe became chair; at that point we hired a second person into a tenure track position. PR: So that objective was realized, and I still feel proud of it. The other major undertaking was guiding the the self-study necessary for the 10-year review, so once the review was done, I was ready to go. You know? There were other colleagues wanting to be chair and, who had other ideas for the department, and that’s important. PR: Then Muriel became Dean, and after … LG: Muriel? PR: Poston. Muriel Poston became Dean, and after her first Associate Dean, Mark �Hoffman, stepped down — he had only made a commitment for two years, — there was a call for interested faculty in the ADOF position. I threw my hat in. Ultimately, Muriel offered me the position which was an entirely different ballgame. In all the other administrative positions I dealt with specific, more or less narrowly defined tasks: hiring, the schedule, tending to faculty needs, mentoring incoming or pre-tenure faculty, connecting to the DOF, etc. In the Dean’s Office, one gets to see the institution from a very different venue. It was, like, “Wow, this is really something that I’ve never done.” Muriel had a broad and deep understanding of US higher education. She had also worked at the National Science Foundation, was a member of a number of associations of higher ed, was very interested in educational policy, in diversity issues. I learned enormously from her. During the three years that I worked with her she sent me to conferences, encouraged me to meet other ADOFs from different institutions, to get involved in various groups and tasks. For the first time I understood how narrowly I had understood my position and responsibilities at the institution; how little I knew of the big picture of higher education writ large. This is not just the department, this is not just my course, this is not just my research, but this is the institution, nationally. LG: So … ok, when …oh, alright. So when you are talking about writ large, are you talking about things like finances and, are you talking about …? PR: Mmm, I am mostly talking about the academic area. As the ADOF, one of my responsibilities was academic space: labs, research areas, classrooms, studios, etc., When we hire, particularly in the sciences, can we accommodate that person in terms of their lab needs? Finance, not directly, but most everything that one wishes or needs to do is budgetarily possible or not. One of my tasks was to try to find the money; talk to folks in financial �affairs. The same with faculty positions. I was in charge of all non-tenure track hiring. Every one of those positions needed approval from Financial Affairs. What was incredibly interesting fin working with Muriel is that she her disciplinary training was in the natural sciences and for her data is central. So, I would bring an issue to her, and she would say, what is your data? We would discuss it and at some point it became clear that we were interpreting it differently. She, from a quantitative and I from qualitative perspective. She would frequently say, “but the data, Paty, suggests that…” and I’d said, “yes, but not everything is data, Muriel.” Right? “What do you mean?” “Well, there are ambiguities, you know. Look at the data from this perspective” And because she was very smart, she would say, “Oh, ok, fine. Let’s then rethink it.” The process was fascinating. She had the ability of seeing both the particular and the general at the same time. Discussions would begin at the micro level and often by the time she was done with it, we were able to understand the larger implications. I had never worked with a person like Muriel. PR: I wanted to help Muriel to understand the culture of the institution. She came to us from the National Science Foundation. She was an outsider; the only black woman in the upper administration; she had not worked at a small liberal arts college before; and she needed help on how to … and so how to get people to get to know her; she was shy. And I was not always successful in creating opportunities for her to know the faculty. I mean, you know, I was part of the administration, but I was unable to solve the problem fully. So, in that sense, I failed, if you will. My experience in the Dean’s Office, however, was amazing. For the first time I understood the institutional �possibilities and the limitations. When Muriel left, Beau Breslin stepped into the Dean’s position. My job changed in interesting ways as faculty development and diversity were added to my duties. I had learned much from Muriel about the importance and need for hiring diverse faculty across the institution. It would be too long to detail what we did. Suffice it to say that Beau moved along what Muriel had begun; after four years the profile of the Skidmore faculty was beginning to change. It wasn’t easy. Departments were not always ready to shed their old procedures. “We shouldn’t do it this way”, “We have never done it this way”. But finally, everyone bought into it. It was fascinating. LG: Icing on the cake? PR: Icing on the cake, yeah. (00:32:25 ) SB: Could I ask a question? PR: Sure. SB: Talking about the institution, … LG: This is Susan talking. SB: This is Susan talking, yeah. [laughs] We were talking about your Institution wide perspective in engagement, Patty. I know that diversity was a topic near and dear … maybe Lynne was heading in that direction, but near and dear to your heart, and I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the source of your commitment to diversity and what you believe, over the years, how Skidmore changed in that regard? What some of the successes, challenges were and some of the challenges that still remain? PR: The source of my initial interest was connected to students, really, specifically to the Latino students. When I came to Skidmore, a steady number of them, particularly Latinas took my classes, my lit and culture classes mostly. And as a result, I developed relationships with students, and realized the cultural �confusion of many of them. I taught language courses and Spanish American lit and culture. We did not then have courses on LatinX studies which is what they were really craving for. Mine and other courses in the department could only partially fulfill their need for understanding part of their cultural identity. So, with a little bit of guidance they created the Latino Cultural Society which was the first Latino student organization at Skidmore; it then became RAICES. It helped then to consolidate their position at the institution which was and still is majority white. They brought speakers, organized social and cultural events. They were a diverse bunch with various backgrounds. And then, of course, came Muriel. Muriel Poston, again. You know, the first Black Dean of the Faculty in a mostly very white institution. LG: And white community. PR: And white community. In order to get her hair cut she had to go to Glens Falls … to get her hair done. There aren’t any men or women hair stylists in the Saratoga area who know how to cut or style African American hair. When Muriel visited Skidmore, she asked to meet with faculty of color. Chuck Joseph, then Dean of the Faculty, asked me that morning to put together a group to meet with her in the afternoon. There were five or six of us in the room. One of the first things she did as Dean was to ask chairs and program directors to look at their hiring processes, to interrogate whether it was a friendly hiring process or, whether that hiring process was useful in order to attract faculty of color. We had never been asked to include diversity into our hiring processes. PR: And, … but things really got working when Beau became Dean. SB: Beau? �PR: Breslin. Because Muriel could only take it so far and she was in the office for five years only. Right? As Assistant Dean of the First-Year Experience, Beau was part of Muriel’s staff and part of the discussions we frequently had on diversity. So when he became Dean, he embraced diversity as one of his agendas. And then when he became VPAA and Dean of the Faculty, he appointed me as Associate Dean for Diversity. And we hired Pat Romney Associates, in order to streamline across departments, the hiring process. Uh, there was a lot of screaming and shouting [laughs], “We don’t want to do it this way. We’ve always done it this other way. Why do have to do this?” and Beau was firm. I mean, the success of the diversity agenda is not necessarily mine. I would never have been able to do anything as Associate Dean without the Dean really pushing for it. And Phil also was very much on boar; it became a priority for him. LG: Phil PR: Phil Glotzbach, the President. There were budgetary implications. Pat Romney came to campus twice a year to run a workshop on diverse hiring that began with “this is the way that the ad needs to be written. The diversity statement is not at the end, the diversity statement is in the middle.” I mean, things like that. Because diversity is not an afterthought. Faculty of color, domestic faculty of color are very attuned to how the ads read. The ad says a lot about how serious the institution is in terms of hiring faculty of color. I was in charge of the process, in terms of making sure that every single ad was appropriately written, that it followed the guidelines; there were also protocols regarding the selection of finalists, for the campus visits that every department needed to follow. I was very passionate about this work. It felt so meaningful. I worked very hard with departments and programs and it was a job that I loved and it was successful. I mean, look at the diversity of the �faculty now. It’s huge! And so … but if it hadn’t been, early for Muriel, next for Beau, my interest would have been just my interest, but it would of not have translated in real changes for the Institution. LG: Are there other things that we haven’t covered that we should talk about your career? When did you retire from Skidmore? PR: It’s been five years, so I’ll …[laughs] No, it’s in 2015. But really, I retired in 2016. What happened is, I was due a sabbatical which delayed by retirement date. It was time. Seven years in the DOF, it was time. And I had to choose. You both know this well … as interesting as the work is, it becomes a chore, and the chore for me were the CAPT cases particularly having to read the student teaching evaluations. One year there was a candidate in the dance department where most faculty teach only one and two credit classes. That year I read thousands of student evals. And I knew that the coming cohorts would be larger. We had been hiring over ten new faculty per year: too many evaluations. I just couldn’t do it again. It’s like, “Why did you retire from the English Department, or History, or you name the department?” “I don’t want to read another composition or essay.” Exactly that. So it was time for somebody else to do it. And, … so seven years was a long time. How long were you in the DOF? SB: Four PR: Four, yeah. LG: So, what have you been doing since you retired? PR: Oh, depending on the time of the year. I go to Chile for three or four months or sometimes twice in one year. I help my sister in her restaurant in Santiago. When I am there she can take a vacation; I run her restaurant for �her; it’s a lot of work but also great fun. Most of the time we work side by side which I really enjoy. I’ve lived for 40 years in the United States, and one of the things that I decided when I retired was that I wanted to go back to Chile a lot to visit my sisters, my family. And, I’ve done that. Also I still have a number of good friends I have a dual identity. LG: Friends here or in Chile? PR: In both places but I meant in Chile. Many of them are school friends. The classes were small we made life-long friendships. With four or five, we’ve been friends for what, 67 years? I also read a lot and I do some volunteering, particularly in the summer for the Backstretch at the horse racing track. A large number of the backstretch workers are Latin American. I’ve also taught English there also, in the summer. LG: As a second language? PR: As a second language. Umm, I also play golf. I love the game; I started playing golf with my father when I was 12. LG: Oh? PR: He was a sports person so as he grew older, he gave up tennis for golf. I started playing it again here in the US after not playing it for about 15 years. It brings really good memories from my late childhood and as a young adult in Viña del Mar. When I retired, I first thought that I would complete some research projects that were interrupted by the time I was in the administration. But after a bit I thought: what’s the point? Who will read what I write? �LG: You’ve turned the page. PR: Yeah, I mean, I’d rather read than write. Juan Carlos taught me that. You know, at some point he said, “I’m done with research. I don’t want to write any more, I want to read.” And that makes sense to me now. It didn’t then but it makes sense to me now. LG: Now of course you are on the board of the … PR: Of course, yeah, well, yeah, and I was on the film board when the Film Forum existed, and then you invited me to be on the board of the Saratoga Chamber Players, and that’s been great. And I work in my yard, my garden, which is my passion. [laughs] LG: And how does your garden grow? PR: Oh wow. It does sure grow, when… LG: This time of year. PR: Yeah, this time of year. LG: Anything else we should cover? SB: Nope. LG: Good? PR: Good? Ok. LG: Alright. Thank you sooo, so much. PR: Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure. Thank you for having me. END � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Patricia Rubio Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 44:21 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit October 24, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Patricia Rubio Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 14, 2021 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Patricia Rubio began her career at Skidmore in 1983 after graduating from Valparaiso University in Chile and, after arrival at Skidmore, her PhD at the University of Alberta in Canada. She filled many roles at Skidmore - coordinator of the self-instructional language program, Director of Women’s Studies, Chair of the Department of Foreign Languages & Literatures, and Associate Dean of the Faculty. Since retirement in 2016 she has helped run her sister’s restaurant in Chile, taught ESL to backstretch workers at the Saratoga track, played a great deal of golf and serves as chair of the board of the Saratoga Chamber Players. In this interview she also discusses the complexity of the self-instructional language program, changes in the Women’s Studies program and its evolution to a full major, the influence of Dean of Faulty Phyllis Roth, her work with Dean Muriel Poston, and issues of diversity. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Beau Breslin Diversity Emigration to U.S. Latino Students Latino Studies Muriel Poston Phil Glotzbach Phyllis Roth Self-Instructional Languages Spanish American Literature Women's Studies https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/f9bce7006c931b2eaed235784e38d6e5.jpg 18883315413995f40af946c047c4a9cb https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/8b26d55b932f59a5ef2abbca8a10c621.m4a 5f1678d9abc1289ccfbb2f9fc74d1024 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/98de521eb464ccd78387d86597f88d65.pdf 4ae6bb3425ed95228a9f361a028a0f9e PDF Text Text Interviewee: John Cunningham Years at Skidmore: 1967-2017 Interviewer: Lynne Gelber Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: April 4, 2022 00:00:00 Header 00:00:39 Grew up in Greenwich, CT; uncle, who was painter, lived with family, normalizing notion of career as artist. 00:01:21 As child, always interested in creative projects, science, & math. 00:01:38 Earned Bachelor’s degree in Physical Chemistry from Kenyon College (OH). 00:02:12 In senior year at Kenyon, took first painting class - discovered the excitement of art:“every mark was unique.” Subsequently decided to apply to Yale to study art. 00:03:24 Kenyon painting teacher Joe Slate supported decision & helped get Yale interview. 00:04:45 Yale interviewers thought it “cool that a scientist …wanted to be an artist.” 00:05:45 Cunningham had no sculpture experience before Yale, though his uncle had studied w/ Jackson Pollock. 00:06:20 “I really loved college! …I didn’t …get all As. I got As in those kind of things that interested me, mostly the strange things that everybody else flunked [laughs].” 00:06:55 Two degrees from Yale: BA in 1963 & MA 1965. 00:07:10 Chemistry background led to job in Yale Geology department neutron activation lab. 00:09:12 After Yale, worked for kinetic sculptor George Rickey; physics knowledge helpful. 00:10:42 A couple of years later began to seek teaching positions & hired at Skidmore (1967). 00:12:18 “At that point, Yale graduates …[were known for creating] teaching experiences that produced … extraordinary results … individuals with just staggering skills.” 00:14:16 In early years at Skidmore, there was a lot of socializing between faculty & parents and faculty & students. When Cunningham interviewed w/ Alice Mosher, she mentioned some faculty who had married students. That wasn’t shocking then. 00:15:55 Also, there was a strong collaborative working atmosphere among the art students. 00:18:20 When Skidmore all women, much student travel; after men began to attend, less travel. 00:19:45 In first few co-ed years, the women voted the men into the offices/leadership positions. 00:20:47 Before became fully co-ed, male RPI & Colgate students attended Skidmore courses. 00:21:02 One Colgate medical student, Ben Cohen, also interested in art. Cunningham insists, “I did not flunk him! [laughs] … He was a really great guy.” 00:22:55 “I was absolutely staggered by the accomplishments and skill of the women at Skidmore… stunned at how high the board scores were… impressed by the accomplishments … and still am, actually.” 00:24:45 The Great Race: originated with donation of huge amount of styrofoam; realized it would be great for making boats, opened up community contest to make boats out of anything and then race them across a pond out in Greenfield. 00:29:12 The old campus had problems with security. New campus building is beautiful, but we lost the faculty studio space, which had been a focal point of student-faculty activity. 00:31:04 During planning for new building, Cunningham spoke to architect and suggested a way to expand his office without expanding costs, so ended up with huge office! �00:32:56 While at Skidmore, “I started my own business, I had patents, I kept going on my scientific pursuits, I published in Nature magazine, … and I was very involved with my teaching … I just generally loved my teaching. My students were great, absolutely great.” “My goal was to present students with really exciting and interesting materials and circumstances where they could really just fulfill themselves, and my goal was to help them do that.” 00:34:41 In 1967, Skidmore art dept. didn’t even have a drill press. By 2017, had 3-D printers. 00:35:33 Upon starting, ordered many tools and taught students to use them. The existing faculty didn’t think it appropriate for women to use tools like bandsaws and compressors. 00:36:52 While sculpting one day, discovered method for craning force; published & patented. 00:40:19 Started company that built Seicon isolator, a device to absorb vibrations. 00:41:10 Started the business because he had presented info about the isolator to Caltrans, who offered to support a bridge project if he could raise $ for it. 00:41:47 No bridge, but raised over $3 million, learned a lot, enjoyed science and art combo. 00:43:12 After the business, time writing about conceptual art. Not yet published, but might. 00:44:41 In retirement, enjoying beach driving and fishing. Also doing 3-D printing sculpture. 00:45:38 To do 3-D art, one must know how to draw well. … “I’m having a lot of fun with it.” 00:47:05 Unlike riding a bike, the software is challenging to get back to after being away. Overall, the CAD (Computer Aided Design) software is “more difficult than you’d think." 00:49:00 “I regard myself as an incredibly lucky man.” I don’t …recall actually having a boss … I came from that generation where faculty would shout and argue with the president at faculty meetings.” Remembers one meeting where “Somebody took a swing at somebody else!” 00:51:30 On introducing students to using computers in the creative process, started incrementally. 00:52:56 Once when there was difficulty getting budget approval for supplies, met with Dean. “He was just so amazed at what I was showing to him … we got some neat stuff, really wonderful stuff.” 00:55:42 “It was just an extraordinary privilege. I had a lot to do! You know what I mean? I had a lot to do!” [laughs] 00:56:08 END � https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/90a540b6ae834d682d09265a71f9886a.pdf 41169655b458e6632df97302f7647052 PDF Text Text Interview with John Cunningham by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, April 4, 2022. JOHN CUNNINGHAM: This is harder than I thought it was going to be. [laughs] LYNNE GELBER: This is Lynne Gelber. It’s April 4th, 2022. I’m here with John Cunningham, retired from the Art Department, and our wonderful helper Susan Bender. And John, welcome. It’s really nice to see you after so many years. I just want to ask you to tell us where you grew up and how you came to be at Skidmore. So why don’t we start there. JC: Ok. I grew up in Greenwich, Connecticut. My uncle was a painter and he lived with us for years. So, when I was small, growing up, the smell of oil painting, like, just filled the house, and one of the things about it was, I guess when you grow up that way, you know, the idea of being an artist is just truly a real thing. There’s nothing odd or strange about people being artists — it’s just a thing that people do. I also wonder about the oil fumes. I always kind of feel, looking back on it, who knows? I could have been really intelligent [laughs] if it weren’t for those fumes! And I guess I was always interested in what I thought to be creative stuff. I did lots of projects when I was younger, and I was very, very good at science, and particularly mathematics, and so when I went off to college, at Kenyon College in Ohio, I was a … physical chemistry was my speciality. And I was … [laughs] actually, looking back on it, I tell my students about this and they feel it’s a little bit sick… I was remarkably good at it. I was remarkably good at the math. I could walk up to a blackboard in those days, and write out — actually I needed two blackboards — and write out the proof of the �Heisenberg uncertainty principle. And … I didn’t think of it at the time, I look back and I don’t even think my professors could do that. My senior year in college [laughs] I took a painting course. And that’s when I discovered that being creative really had nothing, necessarily, to do with science. One of the things about science I always thought was interesting, that for a thing to be real, for a thing to actually be considered to have happened, it has to happen more than once! [laughs]. If a thing happens just once — well I guess the Big Bang happened once, so I guess we have to accept that — but if things just happen once, scientists just assume it just really didn’t happen because it must be duplicable and be observed by others. And, and then I discovered art. Did that, you know. You reach out to that canvas and you blot your brush to that surface, every mark was special, every mark was unique, and I discovered that being creative had nothing to do with putting on a lab coat and mechanically reproducing experiments that hundreds of other people had done before. So, I took that one painting course and … LG: Was it the professor or people in the class who inspired you, or … the material? JC: It was me. Oh, and I had a great teacher, very imaginative, Joe Slate, very imaginative and… LG: What was his name? JC: Joe Slate. Joseph Slate. He was a Yale graduate, and one day in the spring of my senior year, Joe said to me, he said, … no, actually, I started it, because I said, “Hey Joe,” I said, “You know, I’m thinking of changing from chemistry and maybe focusing on art.” Joe goes, “Really?!” He says, “You know, I was going to ask you about that,” he said, “but I didn’t want to �change your opinion. I didn’t want to be forward,” he said. He said to me, would you like to go to Yale?” [laughs]. So I said, “Yeah, sure I’d like to go to Yale!” Because at that point it began to dawn on me that being creative was something far more exciting than just donning a lab coat and mechanically reproducing events that were well known and experienced before, but rather there were aspects of being creative that were tremendously exciting, really, really unique, and I was sure art was one of them. LG: So, you went to Yale for an MFA? JC: Yeah, and, with … but I went to Yale. Well first, Joe Slate set me up with an interview at Yale, see — because I had taken no art courses to speak of! [laughs] This one painting course! And I was applying for entrance at Yale Graduate School! But Yale in those days offered a BA and a BFA, and so I went up for my interview and the people there thought it was so cool — this was the old days, you could never get away with things like this nowadays — they thought it was so cool that a scientist person wanted to be an artist. I went up there, met a bunch of people, walked around, talked, and they said, “Okay, you’re in.” [laughs] And for the next 3 years I thought I was a special student, you know, but I wasn’t! I was just a student but I was a student who had absolutely no art experience whatsoever and I was in graduate school, see. LG: But you had had experience with oil painting? JC: Well, I’d done a little bit of, yeah, a semester of oil painting LG: But with sculpture? JC: No, I had no experience at all. Although my uncle, my uncle did study with Jackson Pollock at the … at the Munson Arts Institute in New York. He was a student with him. He said that the most intelligent thing he heard Jackson �Pollack ever say was “Gin is a great cathartic.” Now, I knew what gin was, I’m not sure, even today, I know what a cathartic is, [laughs] but it sounded really funny at the time. So, anyway, I loved … actually, looking back, I have to say, even when I was at Kenyon studying science, I loved college! I really loved college. You know. Although I have to say I wasn’t, I didn’t certainly get all As. I got A’s in those kind of things that interested me, the strange things that everybody else flunked. [laughs]. LG: John, what kinds of … well let me ask you, when did you get your degree from Yale? JC: Well, I have two degrees from Yale. Let me see, one was, I think, in ’63, to my surprise, they gave me a BA, and then in ’65 I got my MA from Yale. Actually, when I was at Yale I got a job — most of my fellow students at Yale got jobs in the Geology department doing, you know, drafting work in the Geology department. And so I went to the Geology department and said, “Hey, all my friends are working here. Have you got a job for me?” But I knew nothing about drafting! And they said to me, “What can you do?” And I said, “Well I know something about chemistry.” Turned out I knew a lot more about chemistry than anybody in the Geology department [laughs] who were accustomed to studying rocks! So, they put me in charge of a neutron activation lab, because that was my speciality when I was in college, and I was really very good at it. And, as a consequence of that — neutron activation is when you bombard a molecule with neutrons, and you create an unstable isotope and that emits radioactivity that’s proportional to the amount of that material in a substance. And we were working on processes where if you took a tablespoon of alcohol and mixed it in Lake Superior, we could measure it. [laughs] But, during the process I got very radioactive, and after my third … third, no second year, or so, my son was just born, the chair �of the Geology department called me into his office and he said, “John, I have to tell you something. You’ve just recorded more radioactivity than anybody else has ever recorded at Yale university!” [laughs] So, that was …I used to think it was funny, I brought my friends to the lab and I would wave my hands in front of the Geiger counter and I always thought it was funny. But you know in those days, who knew! We didn’t know. I always … I wondered a little bit about what the effect was on my health, but here I am at an advanced age and I seem to be doing alright, so! [laughs] LG: Ok, so when you left Yale, what year was that? JC: I think that was in ’65. But I went to, after I left Yale, I got a job working for a sculptor, a kinetic sculptor by the name of George Rickey. LG: And how did you meet George? JC: George sent a letter out to all of the graduate schools saying that he was looking for an assistant. He was looking for somebody who could weld, who could solder, who could do metal work and all these other things, and I could do those things so I responded. And, George and I, we had the most amazing relationship because George was an incredibly educated man, classically educated, and what we would do, he was a kinetic sculptor — kind of think of Calder, in a way, things that balance, you know, center of gravity, period functions, things like that — and we would sit around George’s table, right, in the morning drinking coffee, and on a napkin George would talk physics to me, back and forth, and he would draw these things out on a napkin and then I would go out into the studio and I would make them. And I was very good at the science part of it. One of the problems with George, he had other artists who were assistants and these were people who could make things but they never understood the science of �it, and so I was the first person he ever worked with who understood, you know, things like center of gravity, movements, you know, and so forth. LG: So how come … you only stayed with him … one year? JC: I worked with him for about three years, and at one point, I guess I walked in and I realized it was time for the little bird to fly the nest, you know? And I could easily see that I was getting too comfortable. And so what I did … [laughs] talk about, you know, well luck, talk about luck, and maybe that’s the secret to life, is luck, and being ready to act when that coin flips your way, you know. So, I sat down and got a map, and I was living in a house where, fortunately, we were paying very little rent, and I drew a circle on that map of commuting distance, right, and LG: And where was that house? JC: The house was in Chatham, NY. And … big circle of commuting distance, and within that circle were three colleges with significant art departments. And one was SUNY, one was Williams and one was Skidmore. And, so I just fired them off letters, saying, “Are you looking for a sculptor?” [laughs] And all three of them were!! Can you imagine that? And… LG: Well there was also a significant Yale presence here at Skidmore… JC: Oh yeah, but that wasn’t necessarily a welcoming thing in those days. LG: Oh? JC: Oh yeah. Oh boy, there were politics involved in that decision. Everybody was amazed at Skidmore that they hired me because those other three Yale guys [laughs] were very controversial. And yet, here again, they hired a fourth one, you know! Although I have to say I was a little bit of an outlier. Although come to think about it, I’m thinking … at that point, Yale graduates, with Josef Albers sort of background and direction, flooded the country with ideas about design and creativity that were aesthetically �magnetic, and these people put together very, very teachable experiences that produced just extraordinary results, just extraordinary results! There was a horrific flaw in the entire process, though, … and early on I kind of, I knew exactly what it was, because these people believed, truly believed in their heart of hearts, that they had defined creativity! They truly believed this. And, of course, if you just think about it for a second, the moment you define what being creative is, it ceases to be creative. I can’t understand why more people didn’t see that, you know? Although, as far as a teaching vehicle goes, they were able to produce individuals with just staggering skills. People who could manipulate color and form. We produced students who could draw with skills that you just don’t see nowadays. Our students could sit down with an H pencil and sketch you while you sat and talked to them, you know, they were that skilled. And … LG: So now are you talking about Skidmore students? JC: Skidmore students … well I’m talking about the Yale courses that were developed all across the country. And, of course, I was a part of that, so in that kind of context, I’m probably, as far as a teacher goes, more attractive, you know. LG: So, what courses did you teach when you started here? JC: Well, I taught … LG: And you started here in, again, 19… JC: ’67. 1967. It was an all-women’s school… it was an all-women’s school… Oh, can I tell you …? Okay, so, my very first interview with the chair of the department, Alice Mosher, who was this wonderful, wonderful, brilliant, brilliant woman. So, she sits down and she’s talking about the department and she’s, “Well…” and she describes the department and the faculty, and she’s “Oh, four or five of the faculty,” I can’t remember how many, �“married Skidmore students.” I said, “Oh really,” I said, you know, “That’s interesting.” [laughs] You know, didn’t think anything of it! “That’s good, I guess,” you know? Years later, I can remember talking to my student assistant and I said, “Yeah, when I came here it was really interesting, in my first interview the chair of the department said there were a number of faculty that married Skidmore students,” and the guy went, my assistant went, “What!?” He was horrified! He was shocked! And I, when he was shocked, I was shocked! I thought, “What did I say?” You know, “What did I say?” [laughs]. To make a long story short, there was a period when we started, Lynne, you must remember this, the faculty and the students were really, really close. Really close. The faculty were also close to their parents, the parents would come visit on the weekend, we’d have them over, we’d have Bloody Mary’s on a Saturday afternoon, you know, the drinking age was 18. We had “beer crits” [laughs] every Friday afternoon at 4 o’clock in my studio. And … it was an exciting time. Oh, another thing about it that I thought was interesting, as opposed to my view of artists today, is that we all shared. It was a sistership, it was a brotherhood, it was like, we were all engaged in this wonderful, exciting venture together, you know? Nowadays it’s every man or woman for yourself, you know? There’s not that sense of sharing and communication that existed then. LG: I think that may have been your department. JC: And, oh yes. Yeah, in particular. LG: Not all departments were like that. JC: I think that’s probably true. �LG: There was considerable sharing across departments, by individuals, though. JC: Yeah. No, I think you’re probably right on that. But it was also because, that Yale background, we had this project, we were all engaged in this dream, pursuing this dream, it was truly magical, looking back at it. There was a soul to our involvement with the class, and with teaching, that I think sort of evaporated over the years, you know? I feel privileged to have been able to be a part of it. LG: When you interviewed, did you interview with anybody besides Alice Mosher? JC: Oh yes. Edwin Moseley, who was Dean of the College, and uh, this was funny, so Edwin says to me, in our first interview, he says, “John, have you ever been to Skidmore before?” And I said, “Yeah, yes I have.” Well, I had because my brother’s girlfriend called me up at Kenyon once, I think I was a junior, called me up, this was my brother’s girlfriend, and she said to me, “Would you like to come to Skidmore’s dance weekend with me?” JC: I said, “I’m in the middle of Ohio, I have no way of getting there. Although I have a friend with a car. Can you get two or three of my friends dates and we’ll all drive up together?” And she said, “Sure.” So, we threw a case of beer in the back of a car and drove up to Skidmore. And, LG: Now this was a time when you could drink at 18 in New York but not in Ohio, is that correct? JC: Well, that didn’t slow us down in Ohio. I look back on it now, Kenyon was an all-male school, okay, so all we had to do was drink, you know? Skidmore was an all-women’s school and all they had to do was drink, I think, looking back on it. Davis, Tom Davis, was the chaplain. He told me once, he did a survey at Skidmore, probably a little before I got here, and he said, �“You know, we did a survey and discovered that at any given time, 50% of the girls were at other schools” because it was not that much fun to be, you know, all by yourself alone here at Skidmore, “and the other 50% wanted to leave but couldn’t!” [laughs] And while I was at Skidmore that changed, I have to say. We got co-educational; all of a sudden it was really, really rewarding, it was fun to be at Skidmore. LG: What difference did it make in your department to have men in the undergraduate classes? JC: Well, I have to tell you the first men were really kind of … chancy [laughs]. You ask yourself, Skidmore goes co-educational, what kind of guy would make that choice, right? So, our first candidates weren’t that strong, looking back on it. And I’ll never forget one of my good friends saying to me, “Boy,” she said to me, “You know, you really know when you’re hard up when those poor guys start to look good to you.” [laughs] And the first few years, you’ll remember this, the Skidmore girls voted men into all of the offices — do you remember that? That was also, I thought, really very revealing. But anyway, over the years things sort of evened out. It was a rough time for the college, but I think for those of us struggling through, it was a tremendously exciting time of flux, experimentation, and it was very, very alive. I’m not the only one looking back and feeling privileged being able to participate in that experience. LG: When … before we became a fully co-educational institution, there was four one-four, and, do you remember that men from Colgate would come over? JC: Four-one-four, I think, happened after we were, I’m pretty sure it did, we were co-educational, I think, by then. No? No. Because I was active … yeah, four-one-four. �LG: Because guys from Colgate would come over… JC: Yeah, and I had classes where guys from Troy came over, too. Troy — RPI. Yeah, I had a huge bunch of guys from RPI who would come. LG: Because one of the people who came from Colgate was a medical … well, he was studying to become a doctor, and his name was Ben Cohen. JC: Oh, I remember Ben Cohen! Oh my God, Ben Cohen was this … Ben, oh, it’s annoying, because Ben Cohen, Ben Cohen told the whole world that Cunningham flunked him! [laughs] in three dimensional. And I, here’s my chance to publicly set … I did not flunk Ben Cohen. [laughs] I gave Ben Cohen a permanent incomplete! [laughs] But, ah, no, I remember Ben Cohen very, very well. LG: And I remember Ben Cohen (*see note) because his father said he could not …um, he would not underwrite his college education if he left Colgate and decided not to be a doctor. He wanted to be an artist. JC: Yeah, yeah. LG: And I just am remembering that he then went into UWW instead. JC: Yeah. And I remember Ben Cohen at parties. We used to have student faculty parties, and I can remember on occasion stepping over Ben Cohen [laughs] at parties. But, I did not flunk him! He, actually, that was published in the magazine! I was shocked to see that published! [laughs]. But, no Ben was a great guy, though. He was really a great guy. LG: What were some of the other highlight moments of becoming co-educational? JC: Uhh… I will say this, that when I came to Skidmore as a young man, I grew up in a family with… I have two brothers, I went to Kenyon — it was all male, you know, and so when I arrived at Skidmore I was, as far as women go, I was I think rather shy, and I was absolutely staggered by the accomplishments and skill of the women at Skidmore. I remember going �through their college board scores as an advisor, and I was stunned at how high the board scores were — just absolutely stunned. And, that took me a long time … I got over that shyness, you may have noticed that [laughs]. But I was very, very shy. So, I started from a point of view where I really was impressed by the accomplishments of women at Skidmore, and still am, actually. And I think the guys came to Skidmore and ,all of a sudden, the college environment became whole and healthy, and men brought a very different sort of an attitude toward it, and we all grew, sort of, accordingly, but I have to say, looking back on it, some of my best friends today are women that I met, kind of back then as a consequence of shared activities, you know, and stuff… and men, too. LG: John, what are some of the other highlights from your experience at Skidmore? JC: Well of course we did the Great Race. Do you remember the Great Race? LG: Oh yeah! Why don’t you explain it? JC: Well in those days, see, if you really wanted to get a big crowd of people, all you had to do, since the drinking age was 18, was to get a keg of beer and a huge crowd would show up, see? So, if you had a project [laughs] that you wanted to do, getting it off the ground was really easy! So, about the time we started this I had arranged with — what is it, Monsanto? One of the big chemistry companies — to donate to Skidmore a boxcar full of Styrofoam. And, you have to see a boxcar to really understand how much Styrofoam that is! It’s a huge amount of Styrofoam! And I hadn’t considered how much it was. So anyway, the boxcar arrived at a siding and we had the Skidmore grounds people to take it … the only place we could put it on the old campus was in the steam room, the steam house, where they packed it in there in this great big industrial space and you went in there and you could just barely get �through and all the rest was Styrofoam! So, for years we made Styrofoam stuff. So, there we were in class one day and we’re thinking, “Hey, we’ve got all of this Styrofoam. It’s the perfect stuff to make boats. Let’s have a race!” [laughs] So it started in my class. So, we put posters up and I went and I talked to this guy Braim, who’s a local lawyer who owns — actually there’s a street named after him, and it’s Braim’s Pond; it’s up here in Greenfield, I think. And he gave us permission. In fact, he actually went and hired himself a master of ceremonies, which I thought was really kind of funny, but he really supported us. So, I put signs up and my assistant put signs up, and … I can remember my assistant, at that time, Mary KeatingLeahey, is her name now. So, we got a couple of kegs of beer, we put the kegs of beer on the side of the road where this pond was, and we sat there wondering, “is anybody going to show up?” [laughs] Feeling a little bit silly, but then, again, we had a couple of kegs of beer, at least we could drink beer [laughs] and then all of a sudden, at one point down the end of the road, we saw this car driving around the, it was an old dirt road, driving around this corner with this strange contraption strapped to the roof, and we knew we were good. And all these people showed up! And the pond, a week before, had been frozen, so the water was really, really cold. And so, for a series of years we held the Great Race! And we … what the hell was the prize? I’m trying to remember what the prize was. There was a whole series of rules, and the last rule, I think, was the best — the last rule was that you could cheat! [laughs] We made it very clear. LG: So, the idea was to make something with Styrofoam? JC: With anything. With anything! And the idea, we had a course laid out, see. And one time, since you could cheat, some guys from RPI came in wet suits and, in the middle of the night, and they laid a rope from one end of the lake �to the other, see, [laughs] and they had this contraption that they then tied the rope to and then when we said “start” the people on the other were like pulling on the rope! LG: Now did that ever continue on the new campus? JC: We did it for a couple of years and then I, you know, I … I thought that it was inappropriate for me to continue to be the prime mover of it and I just sort of tried to encourage the student body, just to take it over and sort of step out of it and it did happen, gosh, it still may be on the calendar, The Great Race, and they put this little notice up, I don’t think anybody shows up! But for years they would do this…[laughs]. LG: Let’s talk about the move to the new campus and how that affected you, how you adjusted to new space. JC: Oh well, the old campus was just a horrible, horrible thing, and the art department was the last to move. And we had terrible problems down there with security, so moving up here was a, just a wonderful opportunity. And, of course, the new building was beautiful. But, there were lots of things that we gave up. On the old campus, because you had all these old buildings, all the faculty had their own little studios. Now, the studio wouldn’t necessarily be a room any bigger than this, but it was your place to work. It was on campus. And, it was very funny, the plans always, always included faculty studios, as part of the future, and it’s sort of remarkable how, over the years, that was just forgotten. But I have to say, one of the things I greatly missed was the fact that my, our studios, the faculty studios, became just a focal point of student-faculty activity, on the old campus, and that we ended up losing. Our colleagues, outside of the department, always kind of … they would look at our building and see the teaching studios we have and somehow assume that those were our spaces, you know, but, really, they �weren’t — we couldn’t create our own work in the spaces reserved for students, and with supplies reserved for students, either. So, in the end I created my own studio, and many of the other faculty did, which meant that activities that used to — professional activities that used to involve Skidmore and my students ceased to exist because I was, you know, elsewhere. So that’s a price we paid. LG: Did you have any role to play in the planning of …? JC: Oh yes, oh yes. [laughs] So, my office was designed between ceramics, and there was another wing that was sculpture. And there was this little space, in between part, was my office, and I remember talking to the architect, “Hey look, do you realize that you could take that front wall of my office and move it forward another 20 feet [laughs] and all we have to do is just pay for a little bit more ceiling [laughs].” I said, “Furthermore, we can cut the expense by not putting any ceiling in, just leave the pipes open,” and so forth. So, I ended up with, I think, the biggest office on campus. In fact, Palamountain came to visit once and he’s looking around this brand-new building and somebody says, “Yeah, and this is John’s office” and Palamountain sticks his head in and then he goes, “How in the hell did Cunningham get this big space?” [laughs] I just happened to be there talking to the architect. [laughs]. But no, it was a beautiful space; I loved my office. And, in fact, when I retired I … for 50 years, I had a place on campus, you know, for 50 years, and it was always there. And that’s … LG: And you retired in what year? JC: I retired in, when did I retire … 2017? Yeah. Is that 50 years? Yeah. Something like that, yeah. So, I miss that office. I really do. Any place in Saratoga, I always had my office. And go hang out, go read, you know. But, �in fact, I haven’t been back to my office. It would make me feel sad. I’m hoping John Galt is in there….laughs] LG: So, were there other highlights that, you know, special moments for you, in the course of those 50 years? JC: Well, I think that, as I was saying before we started the formal part of the interview, I think …for me, I was really involved in doing things. I started my own business, I had patents, I kept going on my scientific pursuits, I published in Nature magazine, … and I was very involved with my teaching, I mean I just generally loved my teaching. My students were great, absolutely great. Wonderful, wonderful people. And, as I got older, I became very selfish, as I may have said, and if I could be on a committee and I thought I could make a difference I’d be on a committee. Otherwise, the hell with it. I think much of the stuff the faculty has to do involves jumping through hoops and I had already jumped through 50 years of hoops, so I just pursued my own heart and what I saw to be my students’ best interests. One of the things with my discipline, by the way, is that, as opposed to my friend who taught Physics, where much of the time he had to regretfully inform them that they just got a C minus, and hence their career as a doctor [laughs] was in question, you know, and suffered terrible phone calls from angry and hostile parents, my goal was to present students with really exciting and interesting materials and circumstances where they could really just fulfill themselves, and my goal was to help them do that. And at the very end I got heavily involved in three-dimensional printing, you know — computer processes. And, in fact, if I would be …one of the things that disappointed me a little bit about retiring is that in the three or four years just before I retired I was really able to bring sophisticated technologies like 3-D �printing to the Skidmore sculpture area, and just as we were getting off the ground I sort of left. [laughs] But I guess it’s ongoing now. In that same respect, when I came to teach at Skidmore the sculpture area had … like, a drill press [laughs]. No, wait a minute, it didn’t have a drill press! When I came, I ordered a drill press! I think they had a hand drill, you know! And that was the only tool they had. LG: So, you had to teach the students how to use the tools? JC: Yeah, oh, and that was … oh I remember the existing faculty were very upset because they didn’t think women should be … it was appropriate for women to use tools like that. Especially when I was ordering things like bandsaws and compressors. So, anyways, usually what I did was, I kind of outfitted Skidmore the way my own studio was outfitted … with like, well, in the end plasma cutters, welding equipment, woodworking stuff. My kind of work sort of spread over a variety of interests. Here is the interesting thing, though, my studio is bigger than my house at home and it has all of the kinds of stuff that Skidmore has, and now that I do 3-D printing, I don’t need any of it. [laughs] I don’t need any of it! I sit down in front of my computer, you know, and I create these drawings — which, by the way, is much harder than it sounds — hit a button, and a couple of weeks later a big box arrives on the front porch. And … I’m thinking that’s the future. That’s the future. That’s sort of the next step that I would have loved to have been able to see. LG: You mentioned that you had patents? JC: Yes. LG: Do you want to talk about that a little bit? JC: Uh, one day I was … I said that science sort of followed me around … I was making a piece of sculpture, right, and so I was reaching down my hands and had these little screen parts and I’m pushing them around, and, all of a �sudden, I saw a way of creating force that I knew nobody had ever seen before. I also knew for [sure-ity] certainty how the pyramids were built, how Easter Island was built, how Stonehenge was put together, and … but it seemed to be such an abstract, difficult thing … I was invited to be a guest lecturer at a Mensa convention once, and I brought all my models and things and at that point I hadn’t figured out the mathematics of it and I invited all of these intelligent people to look at this and see if they could help me kind of figure it out. You could see how it worked! You could see how you could lift something HUGE with a minimum of force, but mathematically I wasn’t able to see the picture until, [laughs] and every time I always say “whatever you do,” I say to my students, “Don’t throw away your old physics book.” [laughs] So I took my old college physics book, put it down, and discovered that I could figure out the math. And in those days, I don’t know if they still have the program, but NYU, which had a “premiero” physics department, had a relationship with the art department, or with the school, with Skidmore. You could go down to NYU and they would give you library services and stuff and help you do research and I went down there with the physics department at NYU. I sent them all my papers about how you could generate, or magnify, force using this principle, and I sent them all my mathematics, and I went down there. And I’ve since discovered that Larry Spruch, who was chairman of the department, was a world famous … world famous physicist! So, I went down to see him and I went in his office and there were four or five guys, and Larry Spruch was sitting in his office, and so I went down there and they were interviewing me about this process. And Larry, who by the way, had the deepest, strongest, most powerful voice of any human being I’ve ever met, he said, “John,” he says, “We’ve looked at your materials,” he says, “and John, it’s just garbage!” he said, “And,” he �said, “we almost just threw them in the trash!” and he actually threw them in the trash! [laughs] So I stood there … and … actually, looking back at all my projects and things, I always had … knock on wood, because there’s always an end to the story, you know, knock on wood, … I always had an ability to know what I didn’t know. Some people don’t have that ability at all, but, so far, I’ve always had that ability, you know, to know what I didn’t know. So, Larry … I’m going, “Yeah, but Larry, you see, you go like this, you go like this,” I go with my fingers, “and it’s an equilibrium and you … that is forcing that…” And Larry goes, “He’s right! He’s right!” [laughs] He says, “John,” he said, “you’d better publish this. We’ll help you publish it in Nature,” he said, “because if you don’t publish this idea,” he said, “somebody else is going to steal it.” That’s what they told me then. So not only did I publish it, but I also patented the constructions derived by it to build seismically isolated bridges and so forth. And I started a company — we marketed, for years, a device that would … absorb all the vibrations from your washing machine, you’ve got a washing machine it goes [wobble sound] like this. Our device would just totally solve the problem. In fact, Consumer Reports tested it, and they said, “We tested the Seicon isolator,” the washing machine isolator, “and it’s the only one we’ve ever tested that actually works!” [laughs] they said. But then they said, “but it’s very expensive!” [laughs]. Which pissed me off, you know? Caltrans … I went and made a presentation at Caltrans. Caltrans said that if I could find the funds to build a bridge, they would supervise it and they would test it, and I made arrangements to do that, but I had to raise the money to build the bridge. And not being a scientist, I didn’t have access, you know, to it. If I’d tried to write a grant proposal ,I didn’t even have the �vocabulary, you know, to do it. So, I decided to start a company — hopefully, my idea was, that we’d earn enough money to do the necessary research, but we got sort of sidelined … involved in other things. But anyway… Learned a lot being a businessman, though. Raised over three million dollars, actually, as part of the project. It was always funny, it’s like, people … I can remember prospective freshmen coming into my office, and usually, often, the father would be openly contemptuous of art as a future …[laughs]. The conversation would come up, “What do you do? What are you doing?” And at one point my company was invited to Bath Ironworks to see if we could apply the isolation system to the drive systems of Navy warships. So, I would say, “Yeah, this is what I’m doing.” [laughs] Only to get an angry letter from this guy saying that I’m supporting the military [laughs] establishment, see! I think it’s really cool, warships are really cool things! Oops! Anyway, so the science things, I sort of, I guess I never did separate it from my other interests, you know. LG: So, does that company still exist? JC: No, it sort of faded … faded out. It faded out. Well, when I was running it, it was going really well, but then I sort of lost interest in making money, and … I had other things to do. I’m really, super glad I did, too, you know, because I think I did … I ended up doing some really, really interesting things that I never would have done otherwise. LG: Like what? JC: Ah [laughs], well a lot of writing that hasn’t been published, okay. For example, I have written, I think, a staggering article about conceptual art, you know, based upon many of my experiences. And one of the things about getting older that I find really interesting, I have lots of things like this that I �haven’t published and I think they’re really, really important — it’s like my article for Nature, you know. LG: So where are you publishing? JC: I haven’t. It’s just living on my computer. Oh, little bits of it, little bits of it kind of go out into the world. But again, since I’m an artist and a sculptor and I didn’t come from a world that published, and things, and I think as a consequence I suffered from that. And I often think that since I’m retired now, I should be taking these efforts and I should be … because I may be gone [laughs] and it will all be forgotten and nobody will care! There’ll be this ton of stuff, nobody will even go through it, they’ll just put it in the garbage. [laughs] LG: So, what have you been doing since you retired? JC: Well, I just bought a brand-new Jeep Gladiator so I could really do substantial beach driving and fishing. [laughs] Okay. And I’m doing three-dimensional printing. I just ordered a work that’s done in stainless steel. It’s sort of an interesting process, it starts off with a powder, a bed of powder, and this laser fuses the powder, that’s how it makes it. And the interesting thing, since it’s in a powder, the form is supported so you can do delicate things, and I’m really interested to see that you could do stainless! It’s a modest size, it’s only about this big, and I’m really looking forward to seeing that. Although, this is interesting, I have, maybe, alluded to this earlier — I truly believe this — I look at the things I make, and they’re made with computer aided design programs, right, which are horrifically difficult to learn, you know, but to use any of these programs, to do them well, you have to kind of know how to draw, alright? And if you don’t know how to draw, you’re forced to lean on clip-art, and other methods, right? And so the quality of the artwork takes a huge hit. Nobody knows how to draw anymore. The people �teaching drawing don’t know how to draw any more. [laughs] Very, very few artists today can draw a flower pot and make it look like it’s sitting on a table top, for example, you know? And that’s one of the things that we used to do at Skidmore incredibly well, years ago. So, even with threedimensional printing, I have a feeling that the kind of work you’re going to see coming out of it is going to be limited, you know, in a way, because you are going to be limited by the innate skills of the creative minds making it. But, I’m not — it sounds like I’m discouraged, I’m not discouraged, I’m having a lot of fun with it. I should have brought some to show you, actually. LG: Will the artists have to learn code? JC: No, no, and I think that’s a huge mistake. I think people think they’re taking the off-the-shelf processes and using them, but they’re devilishly complicated. One interesting thing about software, I remember it being said that you never forget how to ride a bicycle, and that’s kind of true. You never forget how to ride a bicycle, but software, you forget how to do! [laughs] And one of the people my company was doing business with, one of the engineers remarked — he worked for a very large engineering firm — when their designers, when their people who worked with CAD programs, went on vacation, there was always a couple of weeks of down time for them to get back into the drawing because you forget! There’s something about the nature of using the software that, even if it’s sort of intuitive, it does not, it doesn’t stick with you. It’s very, very hard to do. And it’s funny because they have, Skidmore has started the, what is it, the Makerspace? And I always laugh because the people putting the Makerspace together haven’t really been doing three-dimensional printing or using the technology, and the biggest problem with the Makerspace is going to be how are you going �to get somebody to give you a drawing, a CAD drawing that’s adequate to create significant objects. And, I’ve never had a student come to me with those skills. So, it’s very, very... it’s much more difficult than you might think. Anyway, so that’s what I’m doing now. LG: We have about five more minutes left, so I’m curious to know if there’s anything we should include that we haven’t touched on, or that I haven’t asked about. JC: Well, no. Otherwise I should say, I may have said this already, I regard myself as an incredibly lucky man. That I’ve spent my whole life and I don’t think I ever recall actually having a boss, [laughs] you know? Surrounded … LG: I wonder how people like David Porter or subsequent art department heads would [laughs]… JC: I came from the, you know the generation. I came from that generation. I came from that generation where faculty would shout and argue with the president at faculty meetings. Do you remember that? You know? And, life has changed. Life has really, really changed. So, I always, I just assumed those prerogatives. It was a wonderful, wonderful opportunity. And, uh, I have to say I … LG: Whom did you shout at? JC: What’s that? LG: Who remains in your head that you shouted at? JC: Oh, I remember one of our colleagues. Were you at that faculty meeting? There was this fight and this argument and I was looking at this sea of people, you know, and all of a sudden over the crowd I saw this fist go up in the air! Somebody took a swing at somebody else! I don’t know who was the swinger and who was the swingee! [laughs] �LG: What was the topic? I mean what was the controversy? Do you remember? I don’t. JC: Do you remember that Sue? It was when we were meeting in … LG: Was it Filene? JC: No, that hall over here in, what’s its name, LG: Palamountain? JC: No, no down, where are we here … LG: Starbuck? JC: No, no, Starbuck, yeah. One of the, uh …. no, not Starbuck, in, let’s see… LG: Oh, on the new campus? Originally, we were meeting in Filene and then we were meeting in Palamountain. JC: But in Starbuck isn’t there, there’s a big, big meeting room that was big nough for all of us and we were in that room. LG: I think it was Filene, JC: No, no, it wasn’t Filene, for sure, I remember. Anyway, oh tempers! And it’s funny, I have seen a change. When, I think the faculty used to say they were the college and I don’t believe you can say that now. I’m not sure it was a healthy thing to say that, or believe that, but nonetheless I think they, we thought that in those days. LG: Anything else we should ask, Susan? SUSAN BENDER: Yeah, I’d be interested — when did you start introducing students to using computers in their creative process? JC: I started … oh, I actually gave a talk, one of those alumni talks, recently, and I showed some of the work my students did, and, so I started, oh my gosh, eight or nine years ago? But I started off gently. Now, of course, I send off a file and this beautiful finished thing comes back. But we started off with doing things like, um, we have a plasma cutter and you can program that �plasma cutter to cut two dimensional shapes out, okay? And you can create a virtual three-dimensional object and you can cut slices through it, threedimensionally, and with that plasma cutter you can cut out these cross sections. And, you can then — oh the plasma cutter you could cut out your signature, I mean, it does a beautiful, clean job — and, you can weld them all together. So, I got into, we got into the computer thing kind of incrementally, to the point where I am now, where it’s like, yeah, I do the whole CAD program and I will do a three-dimensional thing, and like, little by little by little. Oh, there was one thing, it was about four years ago, where I would submit a budget for the supplies, and nothing would happen, you know, and I was getting so frustrated because it’s like, time was passing and we were missing out, and so I decided to make an appointment with the Dean, and I would bring the Dean all the stuff… LG: Who was that? JC: I probably shouldn’t say. [laughs] Anyway, so, I went into his office, right? And, you know he knew me and I knew him and we’d seen each other around and I would speak up and stuff, and finally I said “Ok, listen, I’ve got to talk to you about … this is who I am and this is what I’ve done.” I showed him my Nature publication, I told him I was a scientist and … he was horrified! He was just shocked. Because his attitude towards artists was that artists just simply weren’t that intelligent. I just got that sense. He was just so amazed at what I was showing to him, because like out of the blue this guy comes up to him and says “Hey, listen this is what we are doing and this is what I want to do with it.” I was saying to him, you know? And I have to say he picked the ball up. He picked the ball up and we got some neat stuff, really wonderful stuff. And then I had to retire. [laughs]No, I didn’t have to �retire, but I did step down at … I’d like to think at the height of my game. [laughs] SB: Get out while the getting’s good? JC: I think I did, yeah. LG: John this has been a delightful hour to spend with you, thank you for sharing some of your stories. JC: I have to say that the entire experience, I think it was staggeringly significant in that it also had a lot to do with people and personalities, it had to do with the times. I know a lot of people, I remember, who was it, the Dean, ahh, what’s her name, … I remember asking her, why so many people retired embittered? So many of our colleagues, I thought, would retire, kind of … just embittered, angry, you know? And I vowed I just wasn’t going to do that. And she said, “Oh well, the student evaluations,” you know, all these sorts of reasons. I never felt that way. I just … it was just an extraordinary privilege. [inaudible] I had a lot to do! You know what I mean? I had a lot to do! [laughs] SB: Thank you John, this has been delightful. JC: Well, you’re welcome, you’re very welcome. END *NOTE- Ben Cohen started Ben & Jerry’s � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Cunningham Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 56:08 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit October 24, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Cunningham Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 4, 2022 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource John Cunningham grew up in Greenwich, Connecticut. In this interview he discusses how he combined his interest in physical chemistry and math with the art influence that surrounded him since childhood.  After receiving a BA and MFA from Yale, he joined the Skidmore art department in 1967 when Skidmore was still an all-female institution.  He discusses the influence of Josef Albers and the Yale approach to art that was prevalent among the 3 Yale-trained art professors already on the faculty, the effect of the transition to coeducation, the “Great Race” project to build a floatable object and the move to the new campus.  He further explores the introduction of the computer and later 3-D printing to art students.  Before and since his retirement in 2017 John has pursued science projects including an article published in "Nature" and presentations at science gatherings on building the pyramids.  John has received a patent for the Seicon isolator, favorably reviewed by "Consumer Reports."  Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History 3-D Printing 4-1-4 Academic Calendar Art & Science Campus Move coeducation Edwin Moseley Great Race on Braim Pond Josef Alpers Skidmore Social Life Yale Influence on Art https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/8d0b9143230256c97c3fbed06a4f374d.jpg ed01d954424e8d184307e264db8d3ce3 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/c02ab030e3e9195f9e23127654e2546b.m4a 0bf25d81fb7629f9a9820e3562df5a9b https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/657f7b7b3ddb54cc266c51baa3734da1.pdf 3dc664538e36423b499fe2e46c9356c6 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Larry Ries Years at Skidmore: 1979 - 2004 Interviewer: Lynn Gelber Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: September 24, 2019 00:00:00 Header 00:00:30 Grew up poor, one of 9 children, in Kentucky; attended a Catholic high school in Wisconsin and graduated top of the class — “gave me a new lease on life.” 00:02:01 After HS, worked 2 years as migrant farm laborer, then attended a small Catholic college in Conesus, NY for 2 years until ran out of money, then moved home and finished English degree at Thomas Moore College in northern KY. 00:03:24 Next was awarded a teaching fellowship at Southern Illinois University; earned Masters in English. Then taught for 2 years in Italy at an international high school. 00:03:59 Returned to US and earned Doctorate in English at Southern Illinois University. 00:04:15 Family moved to Albany, where Ries taught English for 7 years at SUNY Albany, and then was an administrator for 2; wife worked reviewing doctoral programs for the NYS Ed dept. 00:05:25 During time at Albany wrote Wolf Masks, a book on contemporary British poetry. Despite publishing, didn’t get tenure, so after working administration, took advising position in 1979 in Skidmore’s prison program. Joe Bruchac was running it at that time. 00:06:00 Program at Great Meadows Correctional Facility was part of the University Without Walls (UWW), an external degree program originally funded by the Ford Foundation. 00:07:20 Originally the program offered both inmates and guards opportunity for 4-year degree. 00:08:12 Also was an on-campus element for paroled men who had done well in the program. 00:08:48 Combination of inmates & guards in same classes led to problems, so dropped guards. 00:09:18 Ries was also a lecturer on campus in the English department. 00:09:30 Ries led prison program from 1980 to 1985, then became Assistant Director of UWW. 00:10:23 Next became Director of the Skidmore Masters Program, another external degree program, though it did include an on-campus element. Ideal was 15 students; sometimes had 25. 00:13:07 Promoted to Skidmore grads and in Adirondack region (b/c few opportunities there). 00:15:03 Many factors led to end of program, including “a changing of the culture,” less focus on external programs, more on campus. Also, remote learning became more common; less need. 00:16:56 Loved teaching Liberals Studies 1 because of the wide range of reading and the opportunity to be educated and then to learn how to transfer that to students. 00:17:45 Working in the prison could sometimes be traumatic, being locked in with tough men. 00:19:30 Still, the men loved many teachers - eg. Betty Balevic, Helga Doblin — “they revered [Helga Doblin] because they never had good discipline before, they only had bad discipline so when someone did that for their betterment, they recognized that and they appreciated that.” 00:22:26 Once while Ries was teaching Death of a Salesman, “we were acting it out and …[one student] says, “But Pop don’t you understand, I’m a failure! I’m a failure!” and all the guys �started crying because it was their life all of a sudden you know, this sense of being a failure … it was such a moving moment.” 00:23:19 A difficult moment: when Skidmore financial support of prison teaching faculty wasn’t as strong as it could have been, considering Skidmore got PELL, TAP and HEOP money for it. 00:26:04 Recruited faculty by personal invitation and word of mouth from other faculty. 00:26:49 Even science courses were taught, although not with labs. 00:27:33 Received grant to bring computers into the prison; 1st program in NY to do that. 00:28:14 Some problems with faculty incl. inappropriate dress; not submitting grades on time. 00:31:40 Special experiences in the Masters program included working with elderly students, including Frank Crone, who did a thesis in religious studies and later funded a scholarship. 00:34:30 Students worked with a faculty advisor aligned with their area of study. 00:34:50 Sometimes hard for adult students who had other obligations, eg. a troubled child. 00:36:44 During initial on-campus seminar, students met with faculty advisor to design their program, which sometimes involved independent study credits, other times students would take classes at schools near them and apply transfer credits toward their Skidmore master’s degree. 00:38:06 Also added some evening classes for local students in the master’s program. 00:38:30 Different experiences than daytime classes, eg. taught “Growing Up In America” to seven women and one man; the man had been seeking his birth mother and found her during the course, and they “mothered” him and “it just worked beautifully as part of the course.” 00:39:31 The night courses allowed the students to “come and have actual discussions rather than work totally on their own and … that’s a better form of education usually than doing something completely independently.” 00:40:08 Enjoyed career at Skidmore, felt fortunate to have different positions and head a number of committees, “which gave me work with the wider community.” 00:40:35 One challenging one was the Benefits Committee, with which Ries had worked for a year to present recommendations that were challenged in one meeting; fortunately, President David Porter backed Ries up and it worked out. 00:43:15 One last memory from the prison program, interviewing one potential student, Robert Chambers, who “was just horrible, just terrible, and we rejected him and he sued the college, on the grounds of discrimination,” Fortunately, Chambers got transferred so suit declared moot. 00:45:23 END � https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/fee65f9b6fb5bf9c3d8f1b3988a1ebb9.pdf 286d3ac9ad4b8869290b650a97e7ff47 PDF Text Text Interview with Larry Reis by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, September 24, 2019. LYNNE GELBER: Good Morning, this is Lynne Gelber interviewing Larry Reis, with technical assistance of Sue Bender. It is September 24th, 2019. So Good Morning Larry, nice to see you. LARRY REIS: Good Morning Lynne, good morning Sue. SUE BENDER: Good Morning Larry LG: Let’s start off by telling us a little bit where you grew up LR: Oh wow (chuckles) I grew up in Kentucky, one of nine children to a German Catholic family, South of the Ohio river not too far from Cincinnati, and we were very poor and when I was 12 years old I got sent to a Catholic seminary up in Wisconsin where I went for four years of high school, which kind of changed my life. LG: How did it change your life? LR: I got an education I was always in trouble as a child and I kinda found out for the first time that I was smart (chuckles) never knew that before, the nuns weren’t very good in the school where I was LG: In Kentucky? LR: In Kentucky, and so I graduated first in my class up there, so it just gave me a new lease on life LG: Was that a different culture? Going to Wisconsin? LR: (laughs) Totally, they made fun of me all the time LG: Because of your accent? LR: Because of my accent, the teachers made me stand up in class and pronounce words that they laughed at when I pronounced them, so it was a weird experience, but it was a good one overall �LG: So where did you continue your education? Did you do that right away? LR: Uh no, I became a migrant worker for two years because after high school, I couldn’t go back home. My father was an abusive alcoholic father who shouldn’t have had any kids, but he had nine and so it wasn’t a good environment. We had a two-bedroom house for eleven people um so I just started working whatever work I could get. So I picked potatoes, picked grapes, you know for $2 before I started going to college. LG: So how did you decide to go to college? LR: (laughs) I didn’t want to pick apples and grapes for the rest of my life um so I um started out in Western, NY. I was out picking the depth of potatoes, and grapes in south of Rochester. There was a little community college down there at the time, a Catholic college called St. Michael’s. I don’t think it’s there any more in Canesus, NY and I went two years there, ran out of money, went home and finished up at Thomas Moore College in Northern Kentucky, a very good, little private college in Northern Kentucky. LG: And from there, where did you go? LR: I went to Southern Illinois University, I got an assistantship - had no money still LG: What did you major in, in college? LR: English, um went to SIU, Southern Illinois University and had a teaching fellowship so I taught two courses and um, got my Masters in two years and then went to Italy to teach for two years, went to Rome and taught in Rome at an International High School for two years and then came back to Southern Illinois. In the meantime, I’d gotten married and had a child in Italy and then came back and got my Doctorate degree at Southern Illinois University in English LG: And what brought you to Skidmore? �LR: Well, I started as an Assistant Professor at SUNY Albany and I was there for 9 years LG: Did you get that job through the MLA? LR: Uh yes, actually it was because of the MLA. I was late that year and they couldn’t go to MLA because Albany got snowed in and that year, (that was the year they got a 30-inch snowfall and the airports were closed) and so they didn’t do their interviews at MLA that year, so they did them later, and I was in the market so they invited me to Albany. So I came up, they offered me a job in the English department and I taught there.- It was a terribly political place at the time. It was just horrible and my wife was reviewing doctoral programs at that time for State Ed and they took away the doctoral program in English at SUNY Albany (laughs) and that put me in a terribly awkward position so they didn’t give me tenure the year my book came out. Then they took me in administration though for two years. LG: What was your book on? LR: Contemporary British Poetry, Wolf Masks was the name of it. So, they did take me in administration for two years, but it just left a bad taste. So I wanted to get out of there and since my wife was working still in Albany at State Ed, we wanted to stay in the area because she had her career fully started and uh so Skidmore had a job opening for an advisor in the prison program and in ‘79 I came up and interviewed and was offered that job. LG: With whom did you interview? LR: Who? LG: Yes LR: Don McCormack, Bob VanMeter, and Joe Bruchac. LG: Okay, and Who was the? That was under the Office of Special Programs, right? �LR: Yes, uh huh when Mark Gelber was Dean LG: Okay and what was Don McCormack’s position at that point? LR: He was head of UWW LG: So, this was part of the University without Walls? LR: University without Walls and Joe Bruchac was running the prison program at that time, so I was hired to work under Joe Bruchac. SB: Larry, could you explain the prison program for folks that might not know about it? LR: Okay, as part of the University Without Walls, which was an external degree program originally funded by the Ford Foundation. Before I got here they had started a program at Great Meadows correctional facility which is in Comstock, New York and it was set up to offer inmates and guards at that time a four-year degree. And when it began they had guards and inmates in the same classrooms and Skidmore faculty would go up there five nights a week to teach a three hour class. One night they would teach one class for three hours and I don’t know how it was before I got here but once I got involved, we had five faculty members going up there five nights a week. It was a big group of faculty offering classes up there and it’s 45 miles away so it was a good trek for anybody to go up there to teach. And in addition to that program, which graduated quite a few students, there was an on-campus element of the program where men who had good records inside the prison and who had done well in the program up there would be paroled to Skidmore campus and they would live on Skidmore campus and complete their education here, and there were quite a few. When I first arrived, there were five men on campus at that time. LG: Was there a problem with the guards being in the same classroom as the �inmates? LR: Yes, so it was a big problem. It turned out that many of the inmates were brighter than some of the guards (laughs) and that caused quite a conflict and that program fell apart quite quickly so by the time I got here, it was only open to inmates LG: Alright, did you have other positions at Skidmore? LR: I was a lecturer in the English department as well LG: Okay, how long were you with the University without Walls? LR: The second year, they made me head of the prison program and I think I did that for five years and then… LG: And what years were those? Do you remember? LR: Well, I came in ’79 so I think in ’80 - ’81 I became head until ’85 I believe then in ’85, I became the Assistant Director of University Without Walls under Bob VanMeter. Don McCormack moved up to be Dean of Special Programs. Bob VanMeter moved up and they made me the Assistant Director, so I got out of jail finally (laughs) after 7 years and so um, then I stayed in that position until whenever we started the masters’ program and I’m not sure what year that was when we started the master’s program because I became the first Director of the masters’ program. LG: Explain a little bit that masters’ program please. LR: Okay, the masters’ program was built on the model of the University Without Walls, which was an external degree program for adult students. And for many years, there had been talk of doing a masters’ program at Skidmore and finally, it was put together by a faculty committee, of which Phyllis Roth was a member, plus a whole host of other people LG: Was Phyllis Dean of the Faculty at that point? �LR: Yes, uh-huh and they put it together, went through all the faculty channels, etc. through State Ed and it became a program. The difference from UWW is that we did have an on-campus element of it. When students began their program, they had to come to Skidmore for a week and take a week-long graduate seminar and I always thought of that as kind of a bar-raising element to see if students could actually do the kind of work that we were going to ask them to do. And they had a research paper to do as an element of that seminar and it was a good way to find out if they had the basic skills that you need to do graduate research. And we washed out maybe 30% of the students at that seminar. In other words, if they couldn’t do that kind of work, there was no way they were going to do it independently afterwards. LG: On average, how many students then would be in a seminar? LR: In the early years, we were almost (laughs) we were almost too successful. We had 20, 25 a couple of times. We wanted to have 15. We thought 15 was the ideal size but there was always pressure for enrollment around here and so if we got 25 (laughs), we would keep 25 and try to make it, but we did really well I know in the early years. I know after a while, they had more trouble filling those seminars. LG: Why was that do you think? LR: I don’t know, I don’t know um, I know we did a lot of advertising. I used to send letters out to alumni of Skidmore. I would send out letters because I thought some of them would like to get a masters’ degree from Skidmore and we did, we got quite a bit. Our first graduate of the masters’ program was someone who had graduated as an undergraduate from Skidmore. And we also advertised…. LG: Do you remember who that was? LR: Katie..oh, I can’t remember her last name, I think it was Katie (laughs) and she �worked with Jeff Segrave and sports psychology was what she was doing, her program. And we advertised extensively throughout the Adirondacks also because people up there didn’t have access to graduate programs, and we were successful in bringing people who had degrees but didn’t have any graduate degrees LG: And these were primarily liberal arts? LR: Yes, they had to be interdisciplinary liberal arts programs…I always thought the program was quite successful I thought especially it served women, the women who got dumped by their husbands after graduate school (laughs) after they worked to put their husbands through graduate school you know, and then the husbands would split. They got their careers started and then these women were left, they had gone to college, but they had nothing else. We had quite a few of them coming back to get their degrees so they could launch their own careers and I thought that was a great use of the program. LG: So, was it low enrollment that made the program disappear? LR: I think it was a whole lot of things including changing of the culture here at the college LG: Can you explain that a little bit? LR: I get this more second hand because I wasn’t here any longer LG: What year did you retire? LR: I retired, well, in 2000, I went on a phased retirement and I retired fully in 2004 and they had four or five directors after me of the masters’ program, but people told me that the college became more inward as time went on instead of out, just the way that UWW collapsed and the masters hung on for a few more years but then that… and the faculty seemed more inward centered I would say, rather than the external programs weren’t as important and maybe, there was a lot of competition in these areas too. When we �started UWW, we were one of the few programs that offered that kind of education and the same with the masters’ program when we started that. We were an exception and I think that as time went on more and more people especially with online learning could do it in a whole host of ways. You could go to SUNY Albany and do most of your work as an external student, so people didn’t need this kind of learning as much anymore either. So I think there are a lot of factors engaged in that plus money (laughs) which is a whole ‘nother issue. LG: what do you think were some of the outstanding moments for you in your career at Skidmore? LR: I enjoyed teaching in Liberal Studies, the original liberal studies program. I taught every semester in LS 1 and I just thought that was a terrific program. I felt that it educated me as well and it helped me learn in a way to transfer that to students and I just loved that. I thought that was terrific, I loved the wide range of reading. If I was a student (chuckles), I would have taken a course like that if they had had it when I was around, so that was it. Working in the prison program is traumatic, you go up there everyday like I did for five, years - six years and hear those bars clank behind you and you’re in there with men, many of them. Comstock is like… LG: A maximum security? LR: It’s a maxi max you know, it’s one of the worst prisons in New York state where Silent Sam was kept, people like that um, and it’s filled with hardened criminals and these are not nice men I mean they (chuckles), they are tough and there are times when you feel your life threatened. One time they had to sedate a man because I told him he had to take a Sociology course and he said I’m not gonna take one of those nigger courses. His father was killed in the New Jersey riots in the black riots and his father was killed there. He �was a big, huge stevedore, he worked on the docks. His arms were that big! And Danny, he told (me), —he was (laughs) an Irish guy with a high-pitched voice —and I said, “Danny, if you wanna get a degree, you gotta do your social sciences requirement.” And he’s like, “Mr. Reis, I’m not gonna do that,” and I said, “Well you don’t have to get a degree, that’s your choice but if you want the degree..” and he just went off, he went crazy, and then they came down and put a needle in him right away, because I don’t think anybody could have handled him if he really got going, and there were things like that, and you know, it was always tricky having women going into that environment. It was always….most of the time, it worked well. I mean Betty Balevic was such a trooper, she was such a… she went up there from Schenectady every semester LG: She was in the Business Department? LR: Yes LG: And what did she teach? LR: She taught Business Management and Betty would go up there every semester and she had to drive from Schenectady up there, which was a long way and the students loved her. Helga Doblin would go up there and the students loved her, they needed good discipline LG: What did Helga teach? LR: She taught Latin and Greek up there and one time (chuckles) I was up there, we have a little office and I see Helga marching down the corridor *boom,boom,boom*, the only way that Helga could do it and I rush out and I said, “Helga what’s wrong?” and she says, “I gave a man a bathroom pass,” it was like high school, they had a pass you know, and only one could leave at a time because with three-hour courses so everybody had to get out the door. And she says, “He’s been gone ten minutes!” and I said, “Oh, you �want me to go and check on him?” “No, I do that!” (chuckles) and she walks, I would never walk into a bathroom in a maximum-security prison. Helga marches in and then a minute later, she has this guy by the ear and she’s brining him back, “You come back to class!” and she brings him back. This guy was a triple murderer (chuckles) and they revered her because they never had good discipline before, they only had bad discipline so when someone did that for their betterment, they recognized that and they appreciated that so she was special that way so.... But the prison, working in the prison was a special time for me here. I think it took its toll over six years, it was very exhausting work and it was night-time work in addition to day-time work, plus I taught a course up there once every other semester. LG: In? LR: In Literature LG: In Poetry? LR: No, well I did teach poetry courses, but I tried to do the general literature you know, poetry, drama, and fiction LG: Was it an Introduction to American Lit or something like that? LR: It was kind of a hybrid course like an Introduction to Lit, but I remember teaching “Death of a Salesman” one time, and we were acting it out and the guys were playing the different roles and one (chuckles) one of the guys was playing Biff, the oldest son of Willy Loman and he says, “But Pop don’t you understand, I’m a failure! I’m a failure!” and all the guys started crying because it was their life all of a sudden you know, this sense of being a failure I mean, it was such a moving moment. I was tearing up but I didn’t want to (laughs) show them that. I was being moved but also the boy there. So it was really great moments like that. LG: What were the most difficult moments? �LR: (long pause) I think the sense that at times, as a prison program we were cut loose on our own and didn’t get the kind of support that we wanted LG: From the Faculty or from the Administration? LR: Both, both and Rick Rosenfeld was my assistant in the program for a while and when we taught up there we would get paid a stipend. We didn’t get paid much, I mean to begin with, I don’t think we ever got paid equivalent to what the faculty got paid so you know, we weren’t paid really well, so when we taught we would get paid $1500 or something like that back in those days and then Don decided that he didn’t think that we should get paid anymore that we should just do it as part of our regular work. So Rick and I decided to go on strike (laughs) and we said, “Well, okay then we’re just not gonna teach anymore in that case!” Why would we do that? You know you work all day doing administrative work, and then you gotta prepare a class and then you gotta go up and teach three hours and you gotta travel an hour to get there and an hour to get home, and you’re just dead! Why would you do that? So they backed off of that, but that kinda thing, I mean, that was kinda..and UWW was turning $100,000 back to the college every year in surplus money LG: And the money was coming from? LR: The prison program LG: State money? Or Federal money? LR: Well, they got Pell and TAP right, every student got a Pell and a TAP grant plus a HEOP grant so there were three sources of funding coming in for every student and you know, we paid our faculty, but there was a huge surplus every year, and we turned that all back to the college, so when they didn’t want to pay us (chuckles), that was like a slap in the face like that’s what I felt maybe when you say difficult, those kinds of things it’s like for �me it would have been a no brainer to say this staff is important in what they’re doing and we got all this money, let’s support them as well as we can, and that didn’t happen all the time. LG: How did you recruit faculty? LR: Personally, I went around and sat in people’s offices all the time and said listen, I got this program (chuckles) I’m trying to run and it’s exciting and I got a lot of faculty that do it, and I think you’d really enjoy doing it. Phyllis (Roth) did it for a semester. LG: Teaching? LR: I forget what she taught. Her field whatever, you know, area of literature she taught you know, but it was mainly personal salesmanship and I think word of mouth from other faculty. Faculty who did it, had good experiences, who talked to other people. LG: Were there any general science courses? LR: Yes, Dick Lindeman taught every semester, taught Geology all the time, who else did we have? LG: Figured field trips would be a problem LR: (laughs) Yeah, a big problem, but Ken Johnson taught up there also. We had a number of people who taught science courses up there. There was no lab, although, when he taught Geology, he would take a lot of samples up and everything but there is technically no lab. They wouldn’t let us do that, and we got a grant finally to bring computers into the prison. We were the first program in New York State to do that. There’s a grant from a foundation in New York City that Special Programs still gets $20,000 a year from them, and I think it goes towards the Jazz Institute and things like that now, but they supported us for many years with money that allowed us to put computers in the prison. That was a real step forward. �LG: Alright, are there any other moments or interactions with faculty that come to mind? Or Administration? LR: Um, I remember I had difficulties at time with faculty. I had a female faculty who refused to wear a bra in the prison (chuckles) and I said, I can’t let you go in anymore. I said that’s cruel and unusual to the men in there and she finally changed but it was so obvious you know, and one of our faculty members with the guys that came out of prison, she would seek them out for sexual activity… stuff is always difficult (chuckles) you know. You’re dealing with adults first of all, who really can do whatever they want, and yet you know it’s not in the best interest of the people that kind of thing. Our last payment to the faculty was always dependent on them handing in their grades, their final grades, and we had some guy in Economics who didn’t stay here and he simply refused to hand in his grades. This was when I was assistant director. Ken Klotz was then directing the prison program at that time, and I don’t know why he was doing this, but he wanted to be paid and Ken said, “Well, let’s pay him and maybe he’ll…” I said, “No, if he’s not gonna do it with good will now, he’s certainly not gonna do it with good will after he gets his money.” And I had a talk with the guy and I said, “This is their money that’s paid for their education and they deserve their grades. If you’re angry at the administrators or something, you can’t hold their grades (chuckles), cause they’ve earned that and they deserve that and they’ve paid for that with their TAP and Pell money.” And Mehmet got real angry with me one time too. Mehmet and I are close friends. LG: Mehmet Odekon in Economics? LR: Yeah in Economics, and Mehmet wanted me to take off that rule about holding the grades until you pay. He said because we’re professionals! And I said, “I know you’re professional but Mehmet, we still have problems with �getting grades out of people. This is the only hold I have to get the grades.” And he stormed out of my office and Mehmet didn’t talk to me for a year after that. We’re very close friends now (chuckles) but he thought I was just being stupid and a hard ass or something and he was a faculty and I was an administrator and he wasn’t gonna take that from an administrator, but that kind of interaction happened a lot. LG: I wanna go back to the Masters program and ask what were the most fruitful experiences in that program? LR: There were so many. We had an older gentleman, he died last year in fact, it was in his nineties, but Frank Crone was his name and he was a donor to the college. He sat on fifteen boards and he wanted to do a program in Religious Studies. He was an old, Jewish gentleman, who wanted to…he had a firm belief that if people could (chuckles) only understand that Christianity and Judaism are really the same thing, that they grew out of the same seed, and he actually wrote a book about this later on, about the book of James, which was one of the apocryphal gospels and he worked with Sheldon Solomon, whom he finally had a blow up with, and Joel Smith was his faculty advisor LG: In Philosophy? LR: Right, in Philosophy and Religion LG: And Sheldon in Psychology? LR: Yes, and Sheldon in Psychology and this guy did a wonderful program and then he funded a scholarship program for the Masters program afterwards and we named it after him. The Crone Scholarship so that was really nice to happen LG: And he got his degree? LR: And he got his degree, and he didn’t need it for anything. This was just pure, he needed guidance in how to approach the subject he wanted to do �LG: And what subject did he want to do? Do you remember? LR: It was just called Religious Studies, I think. You know, it was the overall Master of Liberal Arts in Religious Studies LG: And there was a final paper that they had to write, a thesis? LR: Yes, that’s what he did his paper on, Christianity and Judaism being the same thing. He worked with Phil West also a lot at that time.. He was in English, passed away my goodness, ten or fifteen years ago now, Phil. LG: Okay, any other interesting theses that came out of that? LR: Let me think back, that’s a long way to think back (laughs) There were so many good students and they worked really closely with the faculty which was really good. Every student had their faculty advisor from a department in which they worked. It was just exemplary the way it worked when it worked well. Like all external programs, I think there are times when it doesn’t work at all for a student. The student can’t get through his or her own motivation. I had a student who called me one time and said she had an adopted child from Russia and the child was psychotic, that it been in one of those orphanages. She said sorry, I just can’t find time to do any studies, I’ve got to take care of this child and I said, you really need to take time for yourself, don’t worry about your studies, you got more important things to do. There was this old, Jewish woman who came into the program, she was from Florida. And Rose must have been between 65 and 70 when she came to the program. She was the sweetest woman in the world. She volunteered for everything down there. If any committee or any social work unit needed help, Rose was there. She couldn’t do academic work and she came, and she did our seminar and I looked at her paper and it was just terrible. It broke my heart, but I made the phone call and I talked to her for about an hour and I told her how much I admired her that she didn’t need a degree to do all the �good work that she was doing, that she ought to continue doing everything she’s doing, and just forget about(chuckles) getting a masters degree, and it went well, much better than I thought it was going . I thought I was gonna wind up with this woman crying on the phone, but she finally thought that was the best advice. LG: Larry, it occurs to me, we haven’t said how that program works. There’s the initial seminar and then what? LR: Okay, and at that time they meet with a faculty adviser to set up kind of an ideal program so, if you want to do religious studies, you might take a course in the Bible etc. and then it was up to the student to find the resources for those courses now, one of the major resources is simply, go to a university near where you live and take a course and then have it transferred into Skidmore LG: And that would mean just presenting the transcript? LR: A transcript, official transcript. The second thing would be to do an independent study with a Skidmore faculty member. In other words, if there is material you wouldn’t find in a normal course, the faculty member would help you put that material together into a special course, an independent study, I’m sure the same way undergraduates do at times here LG: And the faculty would be reimbursed for that? LR: Yes, as well as for mentoring the student as the advisor. And the third thing we did, we started after a while, was to start evening classes on campus for local students cause we always have a cadre of maybe 30 students in the program who were roughly from the Albany, Saratoga area and so one night a week we would have a course in which students could come on campus and study. I remember teaching that course one time. I taught a course called Growing Up in America, and I had seven women and one man, and �the man was a man who taught in the music department at the time. He was a classical guitarist and during the course of that course, he was looking for his birth mother and he found her during the course and we were reading all this Growing up in America with “Huckleberry Finn” and all that literature we were reading at that time and the seven women just mothered him like (laughs) he was a lost child and he would come in and tell us where he was in this search and it just worked beautifully as part of the course. LG: And the purpose of that evening course was to build a sense of belonging? LR: Well, it had to fit into their individual programs first of all but it came from a place where they could come and have actual discussions rather than work totally on their own and as all of us know, that’s a better form of education usually than doing something completely independently LG: Is there anything else about your experience at Skidmore that you would like to share? LR: I had a very good career at Skidmore, I enjoyed myself immensely. I always felt like there was a lot of work to do and I was fortunate to be able to have over my career, four or five different positions and I also headed a number of committees while I was here also, which gave me work with the wider community LG: What committees? LR: Benefits committee, what else would I be on? Benefits stuck out because that’s the year we totally redid benefits for retirement at one point and working in the Karl Broekhuisen era and Steve Harren era was quite a challenge (chuckles) when you’re working with money, but we did and that was good LG: And who was president at the time? �LR: David Porter was president because I remember an incident when we had worked a year and we brought out these recommendations LG: On benefits? LR: On benefits and it went to Financial Policy and Planning committee and Karl changed it in one meeting after our year’s work and two faculty members came to tell me this and I was so angry, I kicked him out of my office. I called David Porter and I said, “You asked me to chair this committee and I said I did, and we did this” David intervened, and it got changed back. I was so angry at that time with what Carl did. LG: Do you want to share what the changes were? LR: I forget what they were LG: It was important at the time? LR: It important at the time. It was like the number of years of service you needed, the strange combination of years of service and age before you could retire and get benefits, medical benefits and you’re like tiptoeing through crocodiles working through all this. Pat Lee won’t talk to me either at that time, because we were giving benefits to families and she argued with me that it should only be the faculty members themselves and no one else and I said but our sense of community is different than that but it was that kind of thing so to work a year and try to come out with something then have it changed in a two hour meeting was like Oh” LG: So the impetus was mostly financial? LR: Of course, yeah LG: Anything else you wanna share with us? LR: No, one good thing as an interesting story is that, do you remember the preppy murderer in NYC, strangled a girl having sex in Central Park? His name was Robert Chambers, he applied to our program up at Comstock and I was �assistant director at that time, I wasn’t in charge of the program, but Don McCormack, he was dean at the time, he said, “I want you to go up and interview this guy because it’s gonna be a kind of a touchy interview,” so I went up and interviewed him and it was just, he was just horrible, just terrible, and we rejected him and he sued the college, on the grounds of discrimination, because we would let all these Blacks and Hispanics in the program, and he was like good White boy and he wasn’t gonna sit and take this. So for many weeks, I had to meet with the college lawyers about this cause I was being sued personally as well as the college being sued, and it was just about to go before the judge and he got in trouble and got transferred out and the judge declared his suit moot cause he wasn’t there anyway so we just dodged a bullet on that one (laughs), but that was a big case at the time, little anecdote but kind of interesting LG: Good, well I wanna thank you very much for taking your time to share all these reminiscences with us LR: Thank you, it was interesting LG: The walk down memory lane? LR: Well, you know, the memory isn’t always real accurate all the time so it’s kind of fun to go back and think about things like that LG: Okay, thanks LR: Thank you LG: It’s been a pleasure � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Larry Ries Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 45:24 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit March 29, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Larry Ries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource September 24, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Larry Ries came to Skidmore in 1979 after teaching and working in the administration for 9 years at SUNY-Albany. His initial job was as an advisor in the University Without Walls prison program at Great Meadows Correctional Facility. He later became Assistant Director of UWW and then the first Director of the Skidmore’s Masters’ program, which was based on the UWW experience but required an interdisciplinary approach to study. He also taught as a lecturer in the English Department and Liberal Studies I, required of all first year-students at Skidmore. In this interview he describes his circuitous route to obtaining his PhD and provides vivid accounts of his experiences in many roles at Skidmore. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Cornstock Correctional Facility David Porter Interdisciplinary Collaboration MALS Phyllis Roth UWW https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/4a696fa9e7d8091291cc5b0f17a55ece.jpg 0b1a271aa15ea6e7640b7210f8e52221 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/083c43768d6b0471e14b8b6cfe7cab8a.mp3 5178aa558a7baa964e9b5a5259be9ecc https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/235e628838ef9c872ea98d4f21e9a76c.pdf 0fbc3df74bf344cf48cada071e507b30 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Terry Diggory Years at Skidmore: 1977 - 2010 Interviewer: Lynne Gelber Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: September 10, 2019 00:00:00 Header 00:00:35 Born outside Philadelphia, after 5th grade moved to Long Island through high school. College at Yale and graduate work at Oxford University. 00:01:10 Oxford schedule faster than US graduate programs, therefore started first tenure track teaching job (Skidmore fall 1977), at relatively early age, 26. 00:02:12 Had visited Saratoga Springs as a teenager and “liked the people that I met in interviewing” at the Modern Language Association in NYC. 00:02:32 “a big MLA … the face-off between M. H. Abrams and Hillis Miller … famous event.” 00:02:52 Taught modern poetry [specialty] and “Western Literature: The Classical Period.” 00:03:25 Interest in classical literature from broader interest in literature and in languages. Major at Yale: History, Arts and Letters program. Took Greek, Latin, and other classics courses. 00:04:36 Favorite courses to teach? Different over time. E.g. modern poetry and contemporary poetry. “…joke … everybody I was teaching in contemporary poetry was now dead.” 00:05:15 “Enjoyed the Classical World course … got me involved in…the Classical Studies Ecclesia … a group of people in various departments who were interested in classical studies.” 00:05:53 Included Tom Lewis (English department), Helga Doblin (was teaching classical languages at that time) Penny Jolly (Art History), Darnell Rucker (philosophy) 00:07:00 Highly involved in “the further development of interdisciplinary courses in the Liberal Studies program.” Taught in both Liberal Studies 1 & Liberal Studies 3. 00:07:46 Liberal Studies 3 was the humanities-based division "but all … Liberal Studies divisions looked out from their base to embrace some sort of interdisciplinary work.” 00:08:04 Taught Liberal Studies 3 course on the New York School painters and poets — “interdisciplinary in terms of the arts.” Also team-taught course on Darwinism in Liberal Studies 4, the science-based division. 00:08:42 Chaired Committee on Educational Policies and Planning, (CEPP), “…at the time when the faculty instituted the Liberal Studies program … I’d long had an interdisciplinary interest, and … Skidmore had a culture that was very open to interdisciplinary work.” 00:09:30 Resistance to Liberal Studies? Some simply resistance to change, some departments felt stretched, staff-time wise. “So, it was an interesting political shift in that sense.” 00:10:35 “And many departments really did strongly invest in Liberal Studies … placing themselves in the broader context of service to the college and to all students…” 00:11:15 Also twice English department chair, frequently on department Personnel committee, plus some ad hoc committees including a Presidential Search Committee. 00:13:30 The Presidential Search Committee that hired President Glotzbach. 00:14:08 1970s many big, risky changes for Skidmore “I came at a time when I think a lot of people at the Institution felt that that was at a low point. It very quickly picked up after that, but, because I was new, I didn’t really sense that as a low point because for me it was all new and exciting.” �00:15:29 Low points? Tensions surrounding controversial personnel decisions. “I valued the collegiality, the friendship, that I had with people who were on different sides of those issues.” 00:17:00 Also on the Dean of Faculty search committee that appointed Phyllis Roth. 00:17:14 Tang Museum planning group. “…commitment to making… the mission of the museum … interdisciplinary … That was a spirit that I was very much on board with.” 00:18:20 Toured other college museums and interviewed people about programs there. 00:18:58 Interviewed architects, brought Antoine Predock to Lyrical Ballad bookstore. 00:21:47 Also special: Liberal Studies program and the learning for both students and faculty. 00:23:40 Liberal Studies 1 “a team-taught course drawing on faculty from all different departments. … The faculty teaching in the course would share lectures.” 00:24:49 “Students would meet twice a week for the large lecture and then twice a week in seminar to discuss the reading and connect that to the presentation in the lecture.” 00:25:11 Occasionally featured a guest lecturer with a particular expertise. 00:25:30 David Porter was a regular guest, delivering a piano performance and lecture on creativity and human expression; playing music and being playful. 00:26:43 Retired in 2010, age 59, because college offered early retirement as a cost saving measure during recovery from the great recession. 00:28:19 Involved in and convener for Skidmore’s Retiree Initiative Planning Group. 00:29:14 A coordinator with the Saratoga Immigration Coalition (immigration support). 00:30:12 Service component - recruiting volunteers for English Language Learning programs or drivers to appointments. 00:31:20 Also legislative advocacy work at state and national level. Eg. “Drivers licenses for undocumented immigrants … speaking to the transportation need.” 00:32:41 “Phyllis was really devoted to the institution, … it seemed like she never slept! …She was up in the wee hours of the morning working on her email.” 00:33:15 “That devotion to the college and the sense that our best interests as a faculty were being closely looked after, I think was really important.” 00:33:29 “And she had a sense of vision. She was certainly engaged in the nascent ideas for … the Tang museum.” 00:33:58 “She was thinking about the full arc of faculty careers and so was very interested in developing retirement programs.” 00:34:20 “Phyllis … interdisciplinary mindset … so I think she was very interested in supporting all the divisions of the college.” 00:34:58 The Ren (Renaissance) Group, “an informal group of faculty who gathered to talk across the lines of the humanities and the sciences.” 00:35:35 “I think Phyllis, having been involved in those conversations, was in a very good position as Dean to not only listen to but also to speak for, let’s say, the sciences, as well as the humanities, in developing programs at the college.” 00:36:02 Faculty dining space… “many iterations of that.” 00:37:01 Faculty social culture change “…small village … everybody knew each other.” 00:37:46 Also, “fewer courses were offered during the lunch hour … gave a time when faculty were available to come together.” 00:38:39 "Later… scrambling to eat a bag lunch in my office … made all the more important efforts such as Phyllis’ to develop a dedicated place that was all about faculty coming together.” 00:39:15 Different now. “Of course small villages have their disadvantages as well as their advantages … but … something lost in … bigger institution where people don’t know each other.” �00:39:45 “That even changed in terms of operations like purchasing … with the growth of the college has come a more formal institutionalization.” 00:40:38 Growth in student body, faculty, administration, and “the mode of administration.” 00:41:21 Some nostalgia for the laid back, interpersonal approach 00:42:29 Moseley Lecturer (1992-3). Presented research on Grace Hartigan’s collaborative work with New York School poets, done in conjunction with an exhibit in Schick Art Gallery. 00:45:15 “The flexibility, the willingness on the part of many offices to pitch in to that project … how lucky I was to be part of an institution where that kind of collaboration was possible.” 00:45:56 “The core of the show was a particular series of paintings that Grace Hartigan had done where she had actually written text by the poet Frank O’Hara into the paintings, but … only one of those paintings was in a public collection.” 00:46:53 Skidmore art professor Harry Gaugh suggested contacting Hartigan directly for locations. “…in some cases the person on her list no longer had the painting and I had to do some further detective work.” 00:49:54 “It was interesting … seeing this one set of work by this one artist … in a very different setting … the context in which we first saw them is always part of my memory.” 00:50:31 END � https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/bc7ac2d0f9fba423300a6d08360b0f74.pdf 39bd3e5eb57ee4670f03ac8339575ff4 PDF Text Text Interview with Terry Diggory by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, September 10, 2019. LYNNE GELBER: Good morning, Terry. This is Lynne Gelber. It is September … TERRY DIGGORY: Tenth. LG: Tenth, 2019, and I am with Terry Diggory and this is the Oral History Project for Retirees. So, would you like to tell us when, or where you grew up and what brought you to Skidmore? TD: Oh, that’s going way back! [Laughs] LG: Well, that puts it in context. TD: I was born outside Philadelphia, spent time there until, through the fifth grade, and then my parents divorced and I moved with my mother and sister to Long Island. Went through high school on Long Island, and went off to college, and after graduate … LG: Where? TD: I went to college at Yale and then did graduate work at Oxford University. And that put me on a fast track because they have a different graduate system so I spent less time in graduate school than would have been typical if I had spent time in America. Which meant that I ended up at Skidmore, my first tenure track teaching job, at a relatively early age. I was 26 when I started teaching at Skidmore. It was the … LG: And you started when? TD: In 1977, fall of ’77. LG: Ok. Did you have other posts before Skidmore? TD: Um, I taught for two years at Yale while I was completing the graduate work, the dissertation, at Oxford, mostly because I couldn’t afford to stay in England much … much longer. �LG: So what brought you to Skidmore? TD: Well, it was a job offer, it was the best job offer in prospect. I already knew … we had visited Saratoga Springs when I was a teenager so I knew something about the area. I liked the people that I met in interviewing and it looked like a good place to start. LG: You interviewed at the MLA? TD: Yes. Yup. LG: In? TD: New York City. It was a big MLA because it was the face-off between M. H. Abrams and Hillis Miller. LG: Oh yes! TD: Famous event. LG: Ok, so, when you came to Skidmore, what were you teaching? TD: Well I was brought here to teach modern poetry, that was my specialty, but … LG: Is that what your dissertation was on? TD: Yes. But, because of the nature of, well Skidmore as a college and our department, of course I taught in a variety of areas. I also had an interest in classical literature so I taught what was then our “Western Literature, the Classical Period” course. LG: Where did your interest in classical literature come from? TD: Well, a broader interest in literature and also an interest in languages. So when I was in college … I hadn’t studied Greek and Latin previously but when I was in college I took both Greek and Latin. In fact I, I was not an English major in college; I was a major in what Yale called the History, Arts and Letters program. And I ended up taking, I took some English courses but �most of my courses were not in English, in fact, and they included courses in the classics. LG: Hmm, interesting. So, who was the department chair at the time, when you came? TD: Well, Bud Foulke was the chair but actually the year that I was hired Bud was on leave and Ralph Ciancio was acting chair at that time. So Bud came back to the chairmanship in the first year that I was actually teaching. LG: What were your favorite courses to teach? TD: That’s tough. Do you mean in terms of my entire career? Because there were different … different courses developed over time. I certainly liked modern poetry and contemporary poetry, although we had a joke about the fact that the longer we waited the more outdated the contemporary poets and contemporary poetry became until finally I realized that everybody I was teaching in contemporary poetry was now dead. And so those two courses. I very much enjoyed the Classical World course that I taught as well. And in fact that got me involved in one of the first interdisciplinary programs that I was connected with at Skidmore and that is the Classical Studies Ecclesia, we called ourselves, at first; it was just a group of people, there was no Classics department at that time, it was just a group of people in various departments who were interested in classical studies. LG: Who made up that, the Classical Ecclesia? TD: Well, Tom Lewis in my department, was a big supporter of that. Helga Doblin was central because she was actually the person who was teaching classical languages at that time. Even though, again, in her case, that wasn’t really what she was brought for but that was a strong interest of hers. And there were people in Art History … oh, I’m trying to think who … let’s see, oh, Penny Jolly, when she came, early on, I believe she was involved in that. People in, of course, philosophy. So … LG: Darnell? TD: Yeah, Darnell. LG: Darnell Rucker �TD: Right. LG: Good. So what other courses besides those did you really enjoy teaching? TD: Well, as the college evolved, one of the big developments that I really embraced was the further development of interdisciplinary courses in the Liberal Studies program. And, that became a big investment of my time and I really enjoyed teaching in both Liberal Studies 1, the introductory course that for a while all first year students were required to take, and then also in the Liberal Studies 3 division. And, again, kind of like … LG: Was Liberal Studies 3 division-wide? TD: It was sort of the humanities-based division but all of them, all those Liberal Studies divisions looked out from their base to embrace some sort of interdisciplinary work. So the course that I taught in that division was on the New York School painters and poets. So in that case it was interdisciplinary in terms of the arts, but I also taught in Liberal Studies 4, which was the science-based division, and I taught, team-taught, actually, a course in Darwinism as part of that. LG: Ok, the Liberal Studies program - when did that start? TD: Um, early ‘80s. And I was the chair of the, of CEPP, the curriculum planning committee, at the time when the faculty instituted the Liberal Studies program. So in that sense, even before the courses were created, I already had an investment in it. But, as I said, about my undergraduate work, I’d long had an interdisciplinary interest. And I had a sense, too, that already, because of my work in Classical Studies and so on, that Skidmore had a culture that was very open to interdisciplinary work. LG: Did you have any resistance to that? TD: Oh sure, yeah, yeah. LG: Which consisted of what? TD: Well, of course, in some cases there’s simply resistance to change. You �know, “this is different. We don’t like it. We like what we’re doing now and we want to keep it that way.” So there was that kind of resistance. There was resistance on the part of departments who felt, in terms of their staffing restrictions, that they were already stretched to offer the courses that they needed to staff their major requirements, let’s say. Um, and they didn’t feel that they could, what they saw as, quote, “giving up staff time” to teaching a course which they regarded as being outside of the department. So, it was an interesting political shift in that sense, in that, I think, to the extent, and many departments really did strongly invest in Liberal Studies, but they were, by doing that, they were placing themselves in the broader context of service to the college and to all students rather than saying “We’re here for our particular discipline.” And I think that affected what was already here in the spirit of interdisciplinary work, but I think that it had a broader effect as the Liberal Studies program took root. LG: In addition to the Committee on Educational Policies and Planning, CEPP, were you on other committees that were significant to you? TD: Yes, especially in my department. CEPP was the major committee that I had several stints on at the college level, with the exception of some ad hoc committees like Presidential Search Committee and things like that, which are obviously important but not a standing committee. But given the fact that the English department is a large department, we have a pretty complex committee structure internally. So, for instance, I, in addition to being department chair at two different occasions, LG: When was the first time? TD: When I was department chair? LG: Yeah, do you know the date? TD: Um, I’m very bad on dates. [laughs] LG: Ok. TD: We could look that up. But, of course the department chair involved me in personnel work, but we also have our own Personnel Committee within the department and when I wasn’t chairing the department, and the chair exofficio sits on the Personnel committee, I was frequently serving on the �department Personnel committee. And that’s one reason why … some people are surprised when I tell them that I never served on CAPT, the College Appointments Promotion and Tenure committee, which is certainly, and rightly so, considered a major if not the major committee for the college. But the reason is simply that, in my case, that I didn’t serve on CAPT was that I was doing so much personnel work at the level of my department that I felt that, you know that’s where, that part of my energy was being channelled and I didn’t have the extra resources, personally, to commit myself to CAPT. LG: You mentioned presidential search. Which president search ended up with you on it? TD: Um, I was on the search committee that brought the current president, President Glotzbach, here. LG: Ok. And your role was just as a member of the? TD: Yeah, yeah, yup. LG: What was the lowest point for you, as a faculty person or as a member of the Skidmore community? TD: Umm, … that’s hard to say because I don’t really think of a lot of low points. Interestingly, even before I started at Skidmore, when we … we moved to Saratoga the summer before I started and we had a house right near the race track but also right next door to the Dean of Students, who was Claire Olds at the time. And I was just getting to know more about the college and I remember talking with Claire, kind of over the garden fence, and this was in August and she said, “Well, things are looking pretty good. It looks like we are going to make our class for this year.” And this was still, at the time, during the 1970s when Skidmore had gone through a lot of changes, risky things like building the new campus, going co-ed, and it was struggling to attract students. So, I came at a time when I think a lot of people at the institution felt that that was at a low point. It very quickly picked up after that, but, because I was new, I didn’t really sense that as a low point because for me it was all new and exciting. TD: I think the low points probably, … again, involved some personnel decisions, �some hiring decisions that were controversial. Some tenure promotion decisions that were controversial. I don’t regret my role in those decisions, but they were always personally difficult because of the tensions that were a part of that, and, you know I valued the collegiality, the friendship, that I had with people who were on different sides of those issues and, you know, you always wonder, “So, am I gonna lose some friends because of these issues?” And I have to say that on the whole I’m very grateful that despite those controversies, that I felt that I was able to maintain friendships with people who were on the other side of the controversy. But it was tough-going through those times. LG: That’s remarkable … umm, what can I say,… ambassadorial work. Were there other committees outside of the department that you served on or other functions that you had while you were here? TD: Well, I was also on the Dean of Faculty search committee that resulted in the appointment of Phyllis Roth. I was on the planning group for the Tang Museum, and that was a really exciting time. I mean to me … LG: Tell us a little bit about that. TD: Well to me, in the time that I served at Skidmore, having the Tang Museum develop here was certainly a real high point. Again, it also speaks, of course, to the interdisciplinary interests of the college, because, right from the beginning of the concept of the Tang there was a real commitment to making this not simply an adjunct of the art department — it was certainly going to feature the arts — but the mission of the museum was very early on determined to be interdisciplinary. So, again, that was a spirit that I was very much on board with. LG: Did you meet with the architects? TD: Yes, we met with the architects. We also did, the first step, actually, other than, you know, just planning meetings, was doing some touring to other college museums to see how they were set up physically, to interview people about programs there. So I remember we visited Colby College, Williams College, Dartmouth, umm, and those were very interesting experiences. And then we did, also, interview the architects. In fact, I think I may have been one of the first Skidmore people to meet the eventually appointed architect, Antoine Predock, when he first came to campus. He came, this was before �he had been selected, but he wanted to get to know more about Skidmore and he came during the summer and, interestingly, one of the first things that he wanted to do was to go … he said, “Is there a good local bookstore?” So we went down to Lyrical Ballad bookstore, in downtown Saratoga Springs, and he just bought a lot of books about area history, Saratoga history and the history of upstate New York and so on. And it turns out that what he was doing with these, he went back to his studio and he used the materials from these books to develop a kind of conceptual sense of the spirit of the community. And, so again, it wasn’t in terms of practical design, but it was almost a visual collage that would symbolize to him something that he would then translate into the design of the museum. And he was very committed, I think, both in terms of his own theory of architecture, but also because he was an architect who had been primarily associated with the west and the southwest, and he was conscious that this would be a commission for him in the northeast, and he … LG: Was he aware of the climate and the snow? TD: Yes. Yes … yes he was. And he wanted to really show us that he understood who we were as an institution and what this region was all about. And I think that was the factor, really, that got him the commission to design the museum. Because, unlike some of the other architects, who basically came in and said, “I’m a famous architect. You’ll have one of my buildings and you’ll be lucky to have it,” what Predock said was, you know, “This is not about me. This is about Skidmore. I want to make sure that the building that we build is really going to be integrated with the overall mission of the college.” And that was, that was very persuasive. And I think that’s what we got. LG: I’m glad you talked about that. Other special moments that you can recall? TD: Well, again the special moments, not so much the committees but the special moments would be going back to the Liberal Studies program and what, especially Liberal Studies 1 meant for those who were involved in it. And again I think for the college as a whole, in terms of faculty development. I mean, obviously the goal was to introduce students to liberal arts education, but in the course of doing that, I think the faculty learned from each other a great deal. And again, there was resistance. You know, some faculty felt, “this is a real stretch for me.” But of course, one of the things that we learned from each other was a broader range of pedagogical strategies. And �the Liberal Studies 1 faculty would meet on a weekly basis and talk about what the topic was for that week, what approach we might take to dealing with the material in our seminars, and then of course there would be the large group lectures and we would be exposed to our colleagues lecturing, which, again, was not something that would normally have been available to us. So that was a real highlight, to me, for the college. LG: Do you want to mention how the Liberal Studies 1 was structured? TD: Sure. LG: For those who aren’t familiar with it? TD: Sure. It was a team-taught course drawing on faculty from all different departments and because every student, every first-year student, was required to take it, we had to have a lot of sections. And there were sections, about 15 students per section, and a faculty member was assigned to the section but then the faculty teaching in the course would share lectures. So, actually because we didn’t have a lecture space at that time, big enough to fit the entire class, we divided up, at one point we actually did three lectures — we did the same lecture three different times. Then we got it down to two times and we, the last space I think we used was the theater, and students would meet twice a week … LG: Palamountain? TD: Palamountain Hall, right. Students would meet twice a week for the large lecture and then twice a week in seminar to discuss the reading and connect that to the presentation in the lecture. LG: And who gave the lectures? TD: It was mostly the faculty who were also teaching seminars, but occasionally, if we felt that a particular expertise was needed that wasn’t already represented by the faculty teaching the seminars, we would ask for a guest lecturer to come in, from another department. LG: Who were some of the guests? Do you remember? TD: Umm, well … �LG: Was David Porter one of them? TD: Yes, David Porter loved to give a presentation … there was a section … LG: He played piano, right? TD: That’s right, there was a section about, it was about creativity, basically, and human expression, and he loved giving a presentation that he thought of as about play, and by that he meant both, you know, playing a musical instrument, but also being playful. And, so, yeah, he would often do the prepared piano — a la John Cage — and show what could be done with that. And he was, of course, a wonderful lecturer as well as a performer, and that was a very special guest appearance that we relied on. He did that a number of years. LG: Ok. Umm, tell us what you’ve been doing since you retired, and when, exactly, did you retire? TD: I retired in 2010, which was early retirement, by most standards, but that was during the period of the, or at least the recovery from the great recession, and Skidmore had offered early retirement packages because they were trying to offload some of the more … senior members off the payroll, as a cost saving measure. And I had not been thinking, frankly, of retiring at that time. Although, you know, I was beginning to look at when retirement might come, say three or five years in the future. LG: How old were you? TD: Well, I was actually 58 when I made the decision and then 59 by the time I retired. So anyhow I decided to take the early retirement package. LG: And that was what, that package? TD: It was a salary plus enhancement, that is, you got a portion of salary on top of your regular salary so you … LG: As opposed to phased retirement. TD: Yes, that’s right. It wasn’t … I went cold turkey. Right, I simply quit teaching �at that point. although I did not stop, cut ties with the college. And one of the things that I had already begun to become involved in was an evolving retiree group, which hadn’t existed at the college. But my colleague Phyllis Roth had been very interested in this as Dean, and when she retired, just a little bit before me, a fund developed in her honor which was designed to fund retiree activities of some sort. And out of that grew what we now call the Retiree Initiative Planning Group. And I’ve continued with that and serve as the convener for that group. So that’s been one of the things that I’ve been doing since retirement. LG: What are some of the other things? TD: Well the main preoccupation right now, since the last presidential election in 2016, … immigration has come into the foreground of national debate, and I became involved, initially through the church that my wife and I attend in Saratoga Springs, in immigration support work in the community. And a number of faith communities and one civic organization, Saratoga Unites, came together to form what we call the Saratoga Immigration Coalition, and I’m one of the coordinators for that. And we do a whole range of support activities, advocacy activities, for … LG: What kind of support activities? TD: We work with local service providers like the Saratoga County EOC, the Economic Opportunity Council, in recruiting, let’s say, volunteers for English Language Learning programs that they offer. We also collaborate with them in a transportation program, because a number of immigrants in our area, especially if they are undocumented, cannot drive, and yet they have children in the school system, they need to get to school appointments, they need to get to grocery stores, they need to get to medical appointments. So we have a cadre of volunteer drivers so that somebody can request, through the staff member for the Saratoga EOC, a ride at a certain time coming up next week, and we will get a volunteer driver to take them to that appointment. So that’s one, that’s the service component. But we’ve also been involved in advocacy work, both at the state and, to some extent, also at the national level in terms of legislation. We were … our coalition was a regional partner in the local, recent effort to get drivers licenses for which undocumented immigrants in New York State would be qualified. So again, that was speaking to the transportation need. �Susan Bender: Terry, I’m going to … this is Susan Bender, I’m going to insert my voice for a minute. I’m just the tech person, but, reflecting back on your interview and what you’ve been talking about, you mentioned that you served on the search committee that ultimately ended with Phyllis Roth’s appointment as Dean. I wonder if you could reflect back on Phyllis’ Deanship and talk a little bit about her contributions to the college in the years that she was here. TD: Well Phyllis was really devoted to the institution, so … she was notorious for, it seemed like she never slept! You would look at the, when she would send out emails you would look at the time stamp on it, and you could see that she was up in the wee hours of the morning working on her email. So, I think just that devotion to the college and the sense that, our best interests as a faculty were being closely looked after, I think was really important. And she had a sense of vision, she was certainly engaged in the nascent ideas for the museum, for the Tang museum. I’ve already mentioned the fact that she was thinking about the full arc of faculty careers and so was very interested in developing retirement programs. And I think she, although of course there’s always suspicion when somebody comes out of the faculty into an administrative position like that, is she going to play favorites? Is she going to…, you know, favor, in the case of Phyllis, the humanities over other divisions of the college? And Phyllis, and I know this personally because of other informal projects that I was involved with Phyllis in, that she, again, embodied that interdisciplinary mindset that I’ve already spoken about, so I think she was very interested in supporting all the divisions of the college. TD: The informal project that Phyllis and I participated in together was another interesting manifestation of the interdisciplinary work, or the interdisciplinary spirit of the college. We called it the Ren group, which didn’t stand for the bird but stood for Renaissance, and the idea that, you know, the renaissance person was somebody like Leonardo da Vinci, who was an artist, a scientist, all disciplines wrapped up in one, and it was just an informal group of faculty who got together especially to talk across the lines of the humanities and the sciences. And I think Phyllis, having been involved in those conversations, was in a very good position as Dean to not only listen to but also to speak for, let’s say, the sciences, as well as the humanities, in developing programs at the college. LG: As a support for that initiative of getting faculty to talk to one another, were you involved in her decision to create a faculty dining space? �TD: Well yes, and of course there are many iterations of that, but I wasn’t involved directly in the planning but I was certainly aware of her interest in developing that. And, you know that’s come and gone, alas. I mean the, each iteration of that plan has come and gone. LG: It was started first in Falstaff’s. TD: That’s right, yeah. LG: Because the students were no longer using it. TD: Yeah. Well actually, early on I think there was a version of it in the Surrey, and then it really took off in Falstaff’s and then for a while it was over in Case Center. TD: Yeah, yeah. That’s been something, that’s also an interesting topic to talk about, and that is faculty social culture. I mean in the time that I’ve been at the college that’s changed quite a bit. We were, when I first came here Skidmore was a small village, and everybody knew each other. The Dean of the Faculty at that time, Eric Weller, was very conscious, also, as Phyllis was later, of promoting the social life. He would always have a big faculty party at his house. I also remember, kind of nostalgically, that, I think, actually, fewer courses were offered, and so the registrar was able to actually kind of schedule a lunch hour into the schedule of courses. So that, maybe … I’m not sure if no courses, but fewer courses were offered during the lunch hour and there was a time, that gave a time when faculty were available to come together. Right. And we would come together in the Spa and you would just show up at a table, and so that wasn’t formally a faculty/staff club or anything like that, but it was just a time when faculty could just sit down and, you know, chat with each other over lunch. And I remember, later on, both because of the pressures that had accumulated on my shoulders but I think also just part of the changing culture of the college that I ended up, for the most part, scrambling to eat a bag lunch in my office, you know, in between meetings or in between classes or something like that. And so I think that made all the more important efforts such as Phyllis’ to develop a dedicated place that was all about faculty coming together, yeah. And, you know, we are a different institution now, we’re not the small village. And of course small villages have their disadvantages as well as their advantages, you know. There’s always that sense that somebody’s �looking over your shoulder and, you know gossip abounds. But, and now there’s not that kind of hothouse atmosphere, but I think there is something lost in the sense of a bigger institution where people don’t know each other. But that even changed in terms of operations like purchasing. I mean I remember early on at Skidmore if you needed supplies for the department office, basically the department chair or the secretary would go out to a local store, you know, buy a bunch of pencils and then walk into the business office and present the receipt and get reimbursed, and that was the purchasing procedure. And of course now you have multiple forms that you have to fill out and you have to go through authorized suppliers and so on, so with the growth of the college has come a more formal institutionalization. LG: When you say growth of the college are you referring to the student body or the administration or the faculty? TD: Well overall. Yeah, the student body has grown, faculty has grown, but also certainly the administration and the mode of administration has changed as well. So, it’s gotten more, you know, obviously some would say more professional, you know, we follow best practices for tracking finances and business measures and so on, which, I’m sure, is certainly to the good in terms of the financial security of the college. But, again I’m still kind of nostalgic for the laid-back, kind of slap-dash approach of doing things. LG: The interpersonal relationships? TD: Yeah, absolutely! Yeah. Because you, … yeah, and that was a personal relationship. I mean, when you walked into the business office, you knew the person that was processing your reimbursement. Or you knew who to call … you know, something … a problem was coming up you’d say, “Oh, well, so and so,” you wouldn’t even think of it in terms of the office, I mean now that’s what you say, “Well, I have to call Facilities about this,” but in those days it was all personal, “Oh, I have to call so and so, she’ll know how to fix this,” [laughs]. SB: Rose Verro. TD: Yeah, right [laughs]. Yeah, absolutely. LG: Are there other things that you want to include in this interview? �TD: Um, no, I think we’ve covered a lot. Umm … LG: Anything that sticks out in your mind? TD: Well, a moment that, you know, personally sticks out in my mind that I’m very grateful for, and again illustrates the collaborative nature of the college, is the opportunity that was presented to me — I was named the Moseley Lecturer one year, and I had been working, the research that I had been doing was, again growing out of my Liberal Studies course on the New York School poets and painters, and I had been researching a particular artist named Grace Hartigan, who worked with poets like Frank O’Hara, John Ashbery, people now known as the New York School poets, and I had gotten interested in the possibility of doing a show of her work, and so when the invitation to deliver the Moseley Lecture came I asked if I could use that as the occasion for not only giving the lecture but also doing a show at the Schick Art Gallery. And of course that required the agreement and full collaboration of the art gallery. At that time David Miller was the director of the gallery and he really embraced the idea. So again here’s this, there was no sense of guarding turf, but …you know, this English professor wanted to put on a show in the art gallery, that was fine with him, and we worked it out and he invested a lot of his own effort. LG: When was this? TD: Again I’m bad at dates. Early nineties? [laughs]. And so that required the full collaboration of the art department, but also, because the dates when the show could be done and also the dates we brought Grace Hartigan to visit the college, at that time in connection with the show, but I think the Moseley Lecture had been typically delivered in the fall, but we could only do it in the spring, and so I think my doing that threw off the Moseley calendar, because then it got shifted to the spring, but again the college administration said, “Ok, so we can do this.” So the flexibility, the willingness on the part of many offices to pitch in to that project, it was certainly a highlight for me. And to me it also illustrated how lucky I was to be part of an institution where that kind of collaboration was possible. LG: So the art department was responsible for bringing her work, for guarding them? �TD: Well the art gallery, yes, oh yeah. They brought, it had become a fascinating project for me because the core of the show was a particular series of paintings that Grace Hartigan had done where she had actually written text by the poet Frank O’Hara into the paintings, but the challenge was that only one of those paintings was in a public collection. So, my wife and I went on a cross country tour tracking down where these paintings were and then we had to negotiate with each of the private collectors to bring them to this show. So, you know that, the background there, that was quite an experience in and of itself, going around. LG: Tell me about that a little bit more. Whom did you meet? TD: Well, again, first of all, to start with the idea of collaborating at Skidmore, the first person, when I began my interest in this series of paintings, the first person I actually talked to about it was Harry Gaugh, who was a member of the Skidmore art department and had worked in that period. He had written a book on Frantz Kline, written a book on de Kooning. And I explained to him this problem, so I’m trying … “Harry do you have any ideas how I could begin finding these paintings?” And he said, “Well, why don’t you just write to Grace Hartigan?” [laughs] The artist! [laughs]. You know because he had, again through his own research, had been involved in that world, I think he had met Grace Hartigan. And he said, you know, start with the source. And that was already something that I had learned from my PhD dissertation, which was about WB Yeats and American Poets and my supervisor at that time said, “Write to American Poets and just ask them,” you know, what their relationship to the poetry of WB Yeats was, and how, what they think the influence might have been. So the idea of just going straight to the source was already in my background. So I wrote to Grace Hartigan. Luckily she was very open to the possibility of my working on this project so she was able to give me a list, to the extent that she was aware of where the paintings were, of who had them. It was somewhat out of date, so I … I could work from that list, but in some cases the person on her list no longer had the painting, and I had to do some further detective work. And so we would then get in touch with the individuals and say, “Can we come and photograph the painting?” And so it was interesting, again, seeing this one set of work by this one artist, how these works had ended up in a very different setting. So one work was in a home in the lower Hudson Valley belonging to an art historian. It was an old Victorian house and the painting was up on this dark stairway and she … you know, it wasn’t an especially lavish home, she was an academic and didn’t have a big income, but really �treasured the painting. And then another place we went was a home in Grosse Pointe Michigan. Somebody who was a high-time art collector, and so that was, again, a very different setting, with track lighting for all of the paintings and a big setup for displaying the collection. So we saw the work in very different settings, and of course for me, now, when I see those paintings, their original … the context in which we first saw them is always part of my memory. LG: Good! Well, I think we’re just about out of time. I really appreciate … I thought there were some very interesting ideas that you gave us and I want to thank you again … TD: Thank you. LG: … for spending an hour with us. TD: Thank you! � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Terry Diggory Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY, 12866 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 50:30 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit March 29, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Terry Diggory Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource September 10, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource After earning his D. Phil. at Oxford, Terry Diggory was born outside began teaching at Skidmore in the Fall of 1977, offering courses in poetry and the Classical World. He participated programs at the College, broadly including the Classical Studies Ecclesia and the Liberal Studies program. One of the poets in his Liberal Studies course on the New York School, Grace Hartigan, was the subject of his Mosely Lecture in which he connected her poetry and painting. As the College embarked on its program of interdisciplinary teaching leaning, Terry chaired the Committee on Educational Policies and Planning (CEPP) as well as the Curriculum Committee. He also served as English Department chair. Other committees included the search that brought Phil Glotzbach to the College, the search that ultimately led to the appointment of Phyllis Roth as Dean of the College, and the group that planned the Tang Teaching Museum. Since retirement in 2010, Terry has been the convener of the Skidmore Retiree Initiative Planning Group and has also been a leader in the Saratoga Immigration Coalition. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Antoine Predock CEPP English Department Eric Weller Liberal Studies Phillip Glotzbach Phyllis Roth Tang Museum https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/034917791b0cc79ea4d81fc4785beead.jpg 1984d206379b318c2357509c28edcc10 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/e91f90d5c7b1ce8036440bd286bd8b4a.mp3 cd65fd9b2fdd67078e6cc970a4ab0fc6 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/f88f1a8bf1f29c9298484ad7f9b96adc.pdf 64e6c1ee6cb066ac73f1e44618c7bd55 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Karl Broekhuizen Years at Skidmore: 1981 - 2005 Interviewer: Lynn Gelber Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: April 18, 2019 00:00:00 HEADER 00:00:27 Born and raised in Holley, New York; 52 people in high school graduating class. 00:00:54 Undergraduate - University of New Hampshire; MBA - University of Massachusetts. 00:01:17 As undergrad, worked in UNH controllers office in a junior accountant position. 00:01:37 Interest in working with new automated information and data processing plus management of not-for-profits, particularly colleges and universities. 00:02:50 Upon completing MBA, hired for a new position at U Mass supporting the graduate school in budget development and administration. 00:03:51 “The graduate school at U Mass at that time … mirrored … what a small college and university would be.” 00:04:26 Between 1967-1977, worked as Business Manager for U Mass Graduate School, U Mass Associate Budget Director, and Assistant Dean of Education (chief business person). 00:05:53 Next 5 years as Treasurer at Colby College, then to Skidmore. 00:06:42 On campus interview with, “… a group of thousands.” 00:09:03 One appeal of Skidmore: “…relative to the competition, Skidmore was a very young institution … opportunity for someone with a different perspective…” 00:09:58 Upon arriving September 1981, ”… annual audit had not been yet completed.” 00:12:11 Initial tasks included “…get to know the place and do some staffing.” 00:13:25 Also upon arriving, plans for a sports center were two-thirds done. 00:14:28 In 1981 the college was used to being under-resourced. 00:15:10 “Skidmore became what it was, and what it is today … because they were all invested in … the vision of this institution…” 00:16:15 “One of the things that we were able to do early on is … try to move our construction program up a notch or two in terms of quality, design, location.” 00:17:10 challenge of “…limestone ledge not very far below the surface. And most, if not all, of the early buildings are three feet higher in the air because it was less expensive to go up than to blast and go down.” 00:17:40 Range of building projects included a residence hall, Harder Hall, Starbuck Center and Barrett conversion into offices, Tisch learning center, the Tang, the Northwoods apartments, the Zankel, and additions to the library and the Case Center. 00:19:19 Changes were “a function of … recognizing a change in how curriculum was developed and delivered.” Also, “tremendous growth in terms of the number of employees.” 00:21:07 Worked with Joe Palamountain, David Porter, Jamienne Studley, Phil Glotzbach. 00:21:34 “Joe, in my opinion, saved this college … saw what needed to be done in terms of bringing this campus in this location to a meaningful presence, and I think he surrounded himself with … a great team, and was able to move forward.” 00:24:36 “[Joe] described … his leadership style as sort of a team approach or what he called a matrix management style … the president’s staff … met weekly around a table and discussed whatever the important issue was in each of our divisions, and decisions were made collectively.” �00:25:45 “…he would recommend to the board the hiring or appointment of the chief academic officer or the chief business officer or whatever, but the appointment was by the board. Deans were not. They reported to board appointed officers, and that worked well, I think, for the times.” 00:26:39 “…one instance … I needed fifty thousand dollars more than the preliminary budget figures … We all talked about it in the room and Dave Long, VP for external affairs, said, ‘I can help you with that. I’ll give you fifty thousand dollars out of my budget.’ No great hassle, no … infighting, we were part of a team.” 00:28:05 David Porter’s priorities were faculty and academic programming. “We would still have president’s staff meetings. He, pretty much, continued with the matrix style of operation…” 00:28:58 Phyllis was interim president during construction on the Tang. “I remember very clearly Phyllis being on the top of an excavator with one of the construction team’s people, coming around a grove of trees, in a hard hat…” 00:29:35 "Jamie was very different … it was much more one-on-one … more decisions got made in her office than in the conference room … different styles, and different times, as well.” 00:32:29 Phil “…was interested in knowing, housing-wise … of some of the things that we were doing in terms of bond issues, for instance, and things of that nature.” 00:33:19 Through his years at Skidmore, Broekhuizen appreciated the eclectic nature of Business Affairs. “I mean, we had dining services and post office and bookstores and computing centers and so forth and so on.” 00:33:44 “In terms of construction, the design process of the Tang was the most interesting to me.” 00:34:56 “… a teaching museum. It would be integrated into the curriculum of the college …” 00:36:38 Search committee narrowed field to three architects for Tad Kuroda and Broekhuizen to visit. “Traveling with Tad … was just an absolute joy. Both in terms of focus on the questions we were asking of the architect …, but also spending free time together. We went to a baseball game out in Los Angeles, for instance … I was the only white guy there. And Tad just tweaked me … ‘What’s it feel like to be a member of a minority group now?’ [laughs]. And it was all said in fun you know, in jest and so forth, but it was just a positive experience.” 00:38:41 Then each architect came to Skidmore to give presentations. “…we had a site picked out …Predock said no … if you want this to be integral to the campus you need to have it on a path where students go, they’ll be forced to go by it or better yet through it. And so he selected this site, made his point, and talked about it growing up out of the ground and it would have this limestone-like exterior and you could go through it or you could go over it, and it was just very very exciting. I mean, he had clearly done his homework.” 00:40:45 “When the search committee came to make its final recommendation, I think it was Predock hands down. I mean I cannot remember a dissenting voice there. And working with him and his colleague, the vendor contractor, was just a joy.” 00:42:12 Another high point was hiring Barbara Beck as the Human Resources officer. She created “… a comprehensive Human Resource function that helped department chairs and faculty with leadership issues and problem solving.” 00:43:21 Restructuring after Dave Marcell left led to the Computing Center reporting to Broekhuizen. Some had suggested it “…be split between academic computing and administrative computing … I kept saying, ‘No, we want one person to be responsible for both areas so there’d be better coordination and articulation of their vision and their role… I just did not want essentially the same general function, computing, … vying for the same resources…’ ” 00:47:00 Skidmore community well served by Business Affairs senior directors. �00:48:03 “…Bob Jarvis, who did a wonderful job, … when he retired … ultimately, I decided to outsource the leadership to …Sodexo… I understand they are doing a fantastic job.” 00:49:55 “I have said … ‘Skidmore College could afford to do anything it chose to do. It could not do everything it wished to do.’ ” 00:50:25 “One of the greatest privileges of my life, to work at Skidmore.” 00:50:31 END � https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/15b306280817ba9b8319bdb96bb85a93.pdf f713a768cc6d9e0020b1a2d821dd321e PDF Text Text Interview with Karl Broekhuizen by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, April 18, 2019 LYNNE GELBER: Today is April 18th, 2019 and I’m here with Karl Broekhuizen and Sue Bender and this is Lynne Gelber. And we are happy to see you, Karl, after some time. Why don’t we start by having you tell us where you were born and raised and then maybe how you got to Skidmore eventually? KARL BROEKHUIZEN: I was born and raised in Holley, New York, which is about 25 miles west of Rochester, a small town of about eighteen hundred, primarily agricultural. I went to a small, a relatively small school system; there were 52 of us in my graduating class. When I left Holley to go to college, I went to the University of New Hampshire in Durham, New Hampshire. After that I went to the University of Massachusetts to get my MBA degree. I decided between undergraduate and graduate school that I thought I wanted to be more involved in the administrative side, financial side, of higher education. I had worked for the controller’s office at UNH and got a taste of that. LG: Excuse me, that was as a graduate student? KB: No, an undergraduate. LG: As an undergraduate? KB: Yes. A junior accountant type job. But I noticed, and this was in the early ‘60s, that at the time automated information and data processing was becoming, was coming on the scene. Most of the folks, the senior folks at UNH with whom I worked, were either retired military folks or faculty members who’d left the faculty to come into administration. And they felt, my observation was, they did not, were not fully embracing some of the nascent information processing age, and I felt there might be room for somebody in that arena. Also, somebody who had a somewhat different view of how not-for-profits, in particular — in general, and colleges and universities, in particular, ought to be managed and operated. At the conclusion of securing my master’s degree at U. Mass., the treasurer, who was the Chief Financial Officer at U. Mass. at the time, created three positions to report jointly to him and the dean of a particular college. To help serve, support the Dean in the academic college, administratively, �particularly financially, budget development and administration, but as I say, reporting jointly to the dean and to the treasurer. I was the first one hired in this role, as it turned out my classmate and roommate, apartment-mate, was the second one hired. My posting was to the graduate school, his was to the school of business. The graduate school at U. Mass. at that time had about 52 hundred students, had its own admissions operation, registrar’s operation, the University academic computing center reported there. The associate dean for research was in that office, so it was a very eclectic kind of arrangement and mirrored, in many regards, what a small college and university would be. LG: How long did you stay there? KB: I was there from 1967 to 1977, and throughout that I was the Business Manager in graduate school, then became Associate Budget Director for the University, and subsequent to that there were financial problems and the chancellor requested that I become the chief business person at the School of Education. And I was an Assistant Dean of Education at the time. I had an opportunity for a career change; I took the opportunity. U. Mass. had grown very much when I was there. When I first went there it was twelve thousand, five hundred students, when I left in 1977 it was twenty-five thousand students. With no disrespect to anybody, but the faculty had unionized, it was very different and it was very much political — part of the state, Massachusetts higher education system, it was very difficult to get things accomplished, both in terms of bureaucratic processes and scale. I applied for and was appointed Treasurer at Colby College in Waterville, Maine, which had about sixteen hundred students at that time. And had more control over its own destiny, not that there aren’t campus politics but about two layers was removed. And I was there for five years and then had the opportunity to come to Skidmore in September of 1981. LG: How did you hear about the Skidmore position? KB: I think I probably read about it in the Chronicle of Higher Education. LG: And you had an on campus interview with whom? KB: Well in the Skidmore tradition it was a staff of, it was a group of thousands. I mean it was a day and a half or two days on campus. Joe Palamountain was the president at the time, so I met with him, I met individually with Dave �Marcell, who was the provost, Eric Weller, who was the dean, Dave Long, who was the VP for … development, I think, at the time. Business Affairs staff, Steve Harran and Ted Butler. Claire Olds was the personnel director at the time. Some students, many faculty. Mark Gelber was on the faculty, was a member of the, a faculty member of the search committee. Mary Lynn was on that group at the time. I can’t remember most of the others. Had a very good, a pleasant session with my predecessor’s predecessor, Jim McCabe, who was a former Vice President. But anyway, it was quite an experience. LG: [laughs] So, and that was what year, again? KB: That was in June or early July of 1981, when the college was using, … I don’t know whether, I guess she was a friend, Nancy Martin Archer, Archer Martin was her name, and she was the search consultant. LG: So when you started work in 1981, what challenges did you face? KB: Well, I was not here, I guess I would say thankfully, in one regard, in the bad old, real bad old days, but I was here when days weren’t so good, either, particularly financially. Let me step back for just a second and say one of the things that appealed to me about the Skidmore opportunity was that it was, relative to … I won’t call them Skidmore’s peers, at the time, but relative to the competition, Skidmore was a very young institution and did not have 200 years of hidebound procedures, legacies, histories to have to deal with, and I felt, and Joe Palamountain reinforced the notion, that there was an opportunity for someone with a different perspective and some energy to come in and accomplish things, without having to be a slave to, again, as I say, 200 years of “the way we always did it.” KB: So coming to Skidmore in September, the fiscal year was June 30th, I was surprised, among other things, that their annual audit had not been yet completed. And so, Joe’s team and the board didn’t have much of an idea about how the college stood. And this was, you know, we were less than ten years into co-education, enrollments were a challenge, Louise Wise, the Director of Admissions at the time, was scrambling to fill beds. That year, in particular, the college had what it characterized as an “over-enrollment,” against what they had planned, or they had imagined, I think might be a better word than planned, would be the enrollment, and were renting spaces downtown, in School 7, the Van Dam building, and the community motel, for students. And how do we deal with that thing, that arrangement? We �were running busses, anyway, to Moore Hall, this was two, at least two, more stops. How do they get services, how do you arrange for them to get meals and so forth. So that was a challenge. The board had made the decision, either the previous February or May board meeting, to build a new sports center, which was seen at the time to be an addition to the Lodge. So, that was my first construction project on this campus. And very interesting, very … very different from the style of architecture elsewhere on campus, I would point out. The big job was to get to know the place and do some staffing. The area for which I was responsible at the time was called Business Affairs; it was not adequately staffed. The, then personnel function, now Human Resources, was essentially two people: Claire Olds, former Dean of Students, former Dean of Women and then Dean of Students, and Marianne Castelot and it was very clear that that area, given what was happening in society and on campuses, that area needed to be beefed up and needed to have somebody at its head who was more experienced, professionally experienced, in employment law, among other things, and good practices. LG: So had the architects and plans already been done for that sports center? KB: They were two-thirds done, I mean it was … one of the things I found, coming to Skidmore, and understandably so, was that the college never had, up to that point, sufficient resources to build buildings, design and build buildings that had sort of a common theme, and so forth. So what we needed, the college needed at the time for its dance program, athletics, et cetera, was space. And they couldn’t afford to, yet, to pay for the kind, the amount of space, they needed, with … wrapped in a finer quality skin, if you will, than we had. It was something that, you know, one of the realities of life. When I came to Skidmore, when we finally got the audit for the year ending June 30, 1981, the market value of the endowment was 7.3 million dollars, and the comprehensive fee was ninety-four hundred dollars. So the place, the college, was used to being under-resourced. And, I would say, I said back then, I would say at least up until the point in time that I retired, Skidmore became what it was, and what it is today, in terms of what I would categorize as the middle of the top tier of institutions, independent of the largest colleges, on the backs of the faculty and staff, trustees and students. Everybody uniformly put their shoulder to the wheel and pushed because they were all invested in what this … what the vision of this institution was. They gave fringe benefits rather than salaries, because it was less expensive �to do so. And people were very grateful for that. So, the … whatever story there was behind the now Williamson Kettering Williamson Sports Center, was a function of, “we need the space for our programs; it can’t be a pretty space.” One of the things that we were able to do early on is … and I would, I had, I made the case but I had a lot of support from the academic leadership of the college and ultimately the president and trustees, was to try to move our construction program up a notch or two in terms of quality, design, location. Much of what I know of the early development of this campus comes from, you know, other people … people like Joe and Jim McCabe, Dave Marcell, Erwin Levine, Mark Gelber, and so forth. I didn’t experience it all myself but I observed the results. One of the early things that the college had to deal with was when they acquired this property there was a lot of a limestone ledge not very far below the surface. And most, if not all, of the early buildings are three feet higher in the air because it was less expensive to go up than to blast and go down. [chuckles]. LG: Were there any other buildings that you were involved in? KB: Oh, there was a whole range. Ahh … what did we do, we did a residence hall, we did Harder Hall, temporary space [laughs]. Ahh … we renovated a large space, took Starbuck Center, which was a student social space, at one time, converted it into offices and so forth. Did the same with Barrett, that was in process when I first arrived, but Barrett was another student lounge, student center, at the time. We did Tisch, a learning center. Umm, certainly we did the Tang. I was involved in the planning process, design process, for the Northwoods apartments, the same with the Zankel. I was … I retired before they were, the Northwoods were just about completed when I retired, the Zankel was, we were still seeking funding as I recall. We did the library, additions on this library, during that tenure. We did the big addition to Case Center. LG: A lot of change! KB: Well yes, and the change was a function of, I think, the growing reputation and acceptance, acknowledgement of the student population, potential student population, of what Skidmore was and could be. It was a change, recognizing a change, in how curriculum was developed and delivered. The other thing I would comment on is that there was tremendous growth in �terms of the number of employees. When I came there were maybe 250, possibly 300 employees — faculty and staff. When I retired there was over 600, and now I understand its up over 800. But that’s a function of legal requirements; Title 9, in terms of women’s athletics, greater use of delivering … a need for counseling services, computing services, athletic teams, balancing mens and women’s teams, in terms of offerings, new additions to the curriculum, there’s a lot of new majors and so forth, greater health services, more staff for that. LG: In the course of your years, who were the presidents of the college? You started with Joe … KB: Joe Palamountain hired me, and then retired after six years. The college then hired David Porter, for almost 12 years, Jamienne Studley for four, Phil was here two years, when I retired. LG: You’ve really seen everybody after Val Wilson. Umm …? KB: I mean I, yeah, and I’d like to comment about that. I think Skidmore, this college, is today, is what it is today, in a large part because of Joe Palamountain’s presidency. Joe, in my opinion, saved this college. Val died prematurely, and Joe, who had little institutional experience, he had been provost at Wesleyan, came and saw what needed to be done in terms of bringing this campus in this location to a meaningful presence, and I think he surrounded himself with a good, a great team, and was able to move forward. I think when he chose to retire and the board hired David Porter, at the risk of seeming immodest, I think David was able to do what he did best, which was faculty interaction and support, because he inherited a very good support team. Dave Marcell and EricWeller, Dave Long, … I was part of the team, whether history will decide whether I was a major contributor or not [chuckle]. But that meant that David could rely on those folks to take care of daily operations, doing the stuff that needed to be done, so that he could visit faculty in their offices and focus on his vision for academic and programmatic growth of the college. LG: You were here at the point when Phyllis Roth took a year, two different times, KB: She, Phyllis, was acting president when David took sabbatical, and that was �for like six months, and then in the interim period after David’s retirement, in December, she completed that fiscal, that academic year and the first portion, I think it was, of the following. LG: From your point of view was that seamless? KB: Yes, yes. LG: You might comment on, aside from their different interests and talents that the various presidents brought, in what ways did their interactions with your area change … or grow? KB: Well, Joe was fairly hands off. He described, when we had our first or second interview, he described his leadership style as sort of a team approach or what he called a matrix management style. Which meant that the president’s staff, which at the time I think it was six of us, met weekly around a table and discussed whatever the important issue was in each of our divisions, and decisions were made collectively, and if … Joe was the referee to the extent that one was necessary, which it rarely was, and by the end of the conversation if, in fact, we couldn’t reach a conclusion, which we often did in one sitting, we all knew what the marching orders were, I mean, Joe would say, “yes, let’s do that,” or “let’s take some more time,” or whatever. And he said, at the time, and there is, in trustee minutes or board books or somewhere, that the president and the vice president, presidents, were what was called board appointed officers. That is, he would recommend to the board the hiring or appointment of the chief academic officer or the chief business officer or whatever, but the appointment was by the board. Deans were not. They reported to board appointed officers, and that worked well, I think, for the times. Oh, I was very, very impressed by one instance that I can recall very clearly, that I had, and this was during budget development time. I had an issue, and I can’t even remember what it was, it might have been in the computing center, where I needed fifty thousand dollars more than the preliminary budget figures required. We all talked about it in the room and Dave Long, VP for external affairs, said, “I can help you with that. I’ll give you fifty thousand dollars out of my budget.” No great hassle, no … what I would characterize as infighting, we were part of a team. And we would all meet, I think it was bi-weekly, one-on-one with Joe, just to talk specifically about things in our areas. Rarely, unless they were personnel, there was rarely any �decision made — it was more information exchange and obtaining perspectives, one to the other. But really the decision making was collective. I think, erroneously, many people thought that that made Joe sort of aloof from the operations. He wasn’t, it was just his style. When David came, again I think he set his priorities as the faculty and academic programming. We would still have president’s staff meetings. He, pretty much, continued with the matrix style of operation and the recognition of a differential between board-appointed officers and other senior members of the community. There were, to the best of my recollection, no major personnel changes during the period between David’s retirement and Jamie’s coming on board that Phyllis had to deal with, in that regard. Essentially it was, the time when, it was time to go to construction on the Tang. And I remember very clearly Phyllis being on the top of an excavator with one of the construction team’s people, coming around a grove of trees, in a hard hat and leading … But that was what I remember as the most visible nonacademic activity that Phyllis got involved in, I mean new activity. Jamie was very different, in my opinion she … I don’t know quite how to phrase it, she didn’t pay as much attention to the notion of separation of board appointed officers and their roles and responsibilities and others. The size of the president’s staff increased, Don McCormack was added to the group … and … LG: And Don was, at that time? KB: Don was Dean of Special Programs — had been, for a great long time. But, not but, his reporting relationship was to Dave Marcell, as Provost, or whoever the chief academic officer was, as Dave had left at that time to go to Rollins. But anyway … things, from my perspective, got much more centralized in the office of the president. She was very hands on, involved in lots of decision making. … LG: So the president’s staff had less of a voice? KB: As a collective, yes, it was much more one-on-one. It was like a wagon wheel, with Jaime as the hub, the rest of us were spokes, more decisions got made in her office than in the conference room. I had been at the college for whatever it was, eighteen or twenty years at the time, had my relationships with various trustees, that gave me a level of independence that a newer, less �tenured, not in terms of tenure, but in terms of time, other officers might have. So like the Vice president for Development or even the faculty, at the time. So, I mean it was just different styles, and different times, as well. LG: And what about Phil? KB: Well we worked together for two years and he was getting his feet under him, again. He was interested in knowing, housing-wise, I guess, of some of the things that we were doing, in terms of bond issues, for instance, and things of that nature. That was the level of his engagement in the Business Affairs area. LG: So Karl, in all of that, tremendous amount of change, what was the most exciting for you, the most pleasant, let’s say? KB: Well I think in terms of Business Affairs, at the time it was a very eclectic kind of division. I mean we had dining services and post office and bookstores and computing centers and so forth and so on. But certainly, in terms of construction, the design process of the Tang was the most interesting to me. Again, many members of a community that views itself as being very inclusive and so forth aren’t aware, I guess, of what’s included in the bylaws of a non-profit organization. The bylaws of Skidmore, at the time, and I’m sure they haven’t changed much, said that the Business Affairs, the vice president for Business Affairs, under the president, is the one responsible for the design and construction of the buildings and the facilities. So, I, when David and the faculty, particularly the art faculty, decided that we should have a museum, and the trustees were not enthralled with that notion, at the time primarily because their vision of a museum was a place where you showed artwork, paintings and sculptures and so forth, and Skidmore couldn’t afford that, given all the other challenges and desires that it had, and David, working with, must have been Bennie Wise, Phyllis at the time, and other faculty, determined that this would be a teaching museum. It would be integrated into the curriculum of the college, and take advantage of the college’s reputation in the arts, “art” arts, but make sure that students were there, involved in that facility, as part of their experience, their Skidmore experience, not just to go and view masterpieces and so forth. And so the board authorized us to do a teaching museum, I convened a group, with recommendations from Phyllis as to faculty members and who �would be there. We got alumni involved in it, trustees involved, and staff, and we had a search committee for an architect. And Tad Kuroda was intimately involved in that and working with Tad was just an absolute joy. We ended up with Antoine Predock. His name was surfaced by Jim Kettlewell, who was on the search committee. We winnowed ourselves down to three architects, the finalists, and Tad and I visited them in their studios. Antoine Predock, Frank Gehry in California, Predock in New Mexico and Robert Venturi in Philadelphia. And traveling with Tad, and these were typically two day visits or whatever, was just an absolute joy. Both in terms of focus on the questions we were asking of the architect and so forth, but also spending free time together. We went to a baseball game out in Los Angeles, for instance, and that worked out very good. Tad was a baseball fan, a big fan. And we watched the Dodgers play, I can’t remember whom, but we were up in the cheap seats because we got tickets last. And the Dodgers had an Asian, Japanese, I think, pitcher who was lightening, he was just very very good, and we ended up in these upper bleachers and … I can’t tell you how many, but I bet you there were at least 25, maybe more, folks there all Japanese or Japanese American. I was the only white guy there. And Tad just tweaked me … “What’s it feel like to be a member of a minority group now?” [laughs]. And it was all said in fun you know, in jest and so forth, but it was just a positive experience. We then had each of these three architects come to Skidmore, make presentations in the Surry, and I kept playing my role, and part — one of my roles was, “We’ve only got six million dollars to fund, to spend. How can you bring your vision in for six million dollars?” Gehry said, “Oh, it might be a little more than that,” but he wouldn’t give us a number. Predock came, and he came at least one, maybe two, days early, met with us and he spoke with faculty. One of the faculty members who we asked to take him on a tour of the surrounding area and of the campus was Ken Johnson, head of the Geology Department at the time. And Gehry was very much into designs that were organic to the site, and we had a site picked out and a facade that would blend very much, with colonial kind of construction and it was up closer to the campus. Predock said no, you don’t … if you want this to be integral to the campus you need to have it on a path where students go, they’ll be forced to go by it or better yet through it. And so he selected this site, made his point, and talked about it growing up out of the ground and it would have this limestone-like exterior and you could go through it or you could go over it, and it was just very very exciting. I mean, he had clearly done his homework. Gehry and Venturi were older guys, whose reputations �were more well established. Predock had a reputation but it wasn’t on the same scale. They came in, did their dog and pony show and left. And I believe, if my recollection is correct, when the search committee came to make its final recommendation, I think it was Predock hands down. I mean I cannot remember a dissenting voice there. And working with him and his colleague, the vendor contractor, was just a joy. One of … Predock would do these clay models and so forth and I remember looking at one that he brought up, … and talked about these sloping roofs, “and we’ll plant grass.” And I said, “no, we’re not going to do that. [laughs] I understand what you’re trying to do, but I’m not going to ask the physical plant crew to be mowing roofs. And this in wintertime and so forth and so on.” But just, and from my, now more just in perspective I think that both the structure, the museum structure, and the teaching aspects of it and the way it helps to both inform and deliver the curriculum and students academic experience has just been a remarkable success. It was a joy to have had a role in that. LG: Anything else that you want to add? KB: Well I would say … hiring Barbara Beck as the Human Resources officer who took, what was really, with no disrespect to her predecessors, sort of a paper processing operation into a comprehensive Human Resource function that helped department chairs and faculty with leadership issues and problem solving. Did a great job in terms of contract negotiations with, seven, at the time, unions. LG: Were you involved in her hiring? KB: I hired her. LG: Ok. KB: With some faculty dissent who thought that the person from corporate, GE, couldn’t be successful in an academic environment. Not true. LG: Ok. Anything else that we haven’t touched on that you have been thinking about? KB: Well, I think that … I can’t quite remember the circumstance, I that that, I guess when Dave left, Dave Marcell, yes, the range of the number of divisions that reported, yes, we were going to do away, they did away with �the Provost title, and it became Vice President for Academic Affairs and Dean of the Faculty; Dave’s and Eric’s function was combined. There were then questions about whether, since that sort of had a less diffuse focus in terms of divisional areas of responsibility, more focused on the faculty and academic program, what would happen to the various divisions. And Dave’s was … David Porter said Dean of Faculty would continue to report to the Academic Vice President, though I think it was Associate Dean at the time, and the Director of Admissions would report directly to David, Dean of Special Programs… LG: David Porter? KB: David Porter. Dean of Special Programs would report to David Porter, umm…, oh, Dean of Student Affairs would report to David Porter. Computing Center would report to me. And one of the things that I argued vociferously for, in opposition to positions that Michael Arnush and others took, was, … who was suggesting that the Computing Center be split between academic computing and administrative computing, with academic computing reporting to the Chief Academic Officer of the College. I kept saying, “No, we want one person to be responsible for both areas so there’d be better coordination and articulation of their vision and their role with directors of academic computing and administrative computing.” Ken Hapeman was there at the time, Leo Geoffrion, and Stan McGaughey, and I said, “I just did not want essentially the same general function, computing, vying for resources, vying for the same resources. I want one person to make the case, to be … if they were going to report to me, and ultimately to the president.” And so we did that and I think that worked out very well and it’s still the case today with Bill Duffy, and formerly Justin …, I can’t remember Justin’s last name, being an attendee at the Dean’s staff meetings. So that portion of the loop was better represented, I guess. I think that, it’s not just me, it’s the team that was in place with the support of Joe and David in particular, that the professionalism at the College, in terms of … well the areas in Business Affairs, and not exclusively, but elsewhere, have just come leaps and bounds. And I would say, I have said and I would repeat, again at least for the time that I was privileged to be at the college, that most members of the Skidmore community have … had no idea how well they were served by the senior directors in Business Affairs. The Ken Hapemans, Barbara Becks, Phil Cifarelli, Chris Kaczmarek, umm, we ran into some turmoil for a bit in facility services but got that squared away… �LG: Who was running that? KB: Well when I came it was Bob Jarvis, who did a wonderful job. Colonel Jarvis! [laughs] So when he retired, which many have said that was the worst thing he’d ever done, we had some trouble just getting the right focus and coordination. And ultimately, I decided to outsource the leadership, to Marriott, which became Sodexo, and so forth, but I understand they are doing a fantastic job. We insisted that the employees, the … unionized employees, would remain Skidmore employees, but the leadership would be on Sodexo’s payroll. But they were every bit as much a Skidmore employee. If they had to make a choice between what was right for Sodexo and what was right for Skidmore, Skidmore had to be it. And they were not to wear their Sodexo uniforms on campus. LG: So what was Sodexo’s responsibility, again? KB: Well Sodexo’s role was the leadership of facility services. The professional staff, the foreman and assistant … director and assistant director, but the line folks were our …were Skidmore employees. But I would say, you know, all … and I would take great credit for, well I would take some credit for this in terms of, at the time, the Business Affairs staff, their professional growth and leadership and management style all in service of the academic and student affairs programs at Skidmore College. I think it’s grown; I think the college is well served by it, not without challenges. I would say, I have said to, particularly to David Porter when he showed up, when he arrived, and I said the same to Jamie and I’ve said the same to Phil, shortly after he arrived, “Skidmore College could afford to do anything it chose to do. It could not do everything it wished to do.” LG: And with that, thank you. That was a wonderful ending. KB: A great privilege. One of the greatest privileges of my life, to work at Skidmore. LG: Excellent. Thank you so much. KB: Well you’re very welcome. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Karl Broekhuizen Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY, 12866 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 50:33 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit March 29, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Karl Broekhuizen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 18, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Karl Broekhuizen came to Skidmore in 1981 as Vice President of Business Affairs and remained in that position until 2005. In this interview he describes his path to Skidmore, including his education and experiences as a financial officer at other higher education institutions. He considers the unique opportunities involved in managing a relatively young institution like Skidmore and reflects on his work with four College presidents. Some of the financial challenges faced by the College across the years, its ambitious building program (especially the Tang), and building reputation throughout his tenure are topics that figure prominently in this interview. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History College Reputation David Porter Glotzbach Sports Center Human Resources Palamountain President's Staff Studley Tad Kuroda Tang Museum Zankel Music Center https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/c15a90464ad63a5cf0503579a4b12419.jpg c6964c546f859e4f2c3a4150cb515129 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/a39cbba293b8171dc8c88e71396c1be6.mp3 dda9a0a0365c8eb8b963ea4965667b7b https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/50e2604c0ef3642e3b730cb62d2cd95e.pdf d9cad02beafcf3552f560e487f047868 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Kathy Carter Years at Skidmore: 1986-2010 Interviewer: Lynne Gelber Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: December 3, 2018 00:00:00 Introductions 00:01:12 When Carter first heard about the job at Skidmore 00:01:50. Growing up in Glens Falls, New York 00:02:30 Learning how to work in human resources and working with benefits 00:03:21 Adjusting to the shift from the business world to Skidmore 00:04:55 Introducing Carter’s biggest challenges 00:05:30 When did cost sharing start? 00:06:45 Deciding the healthcare plan for union personnel 00:07:51 How would you decide which healthcare plans to offer? 00:08:20 The Mohawk Hudson consortium and healthcare plans 00:09:00 Stop loss insurance at Skidmore 00:10:00 The three health insurance plans at Skidmore when Carter arrived 00:10:30 Dealing with challenges and conflicts with union employees 00:11:20 The joys of interacting with other employees 00:12:20 Attending faculty meetings 00:14:22 Attending various faculty parties to socialize with other employees 00:15:30 Serving under several different presidents at Skidmore 00:16:50 President David Porter and his personality 00:17:35 Keeping in touch with Helen Porter 00:18:15 Not having many interactions with President Glotzbach 00:19:20 Meeting various faculty during meetings to discuss benefits 00:20:30 Explaining benefits to people who were about to retire 00:21:48 What have you been doing since you retired? 00:23:40 Retiree group excursions 00:23:58 During her time at Skidmore, coaching people on if they were ready to retire or not 00:25:10 Planning her own retirement 00:28:15 The addition of new technology on campus and its impact on her work 00:30:31 The differences between the amount of contacts and resources working in the business world versus at Skidmore 00:32:00 “I loved my time at Skidmore” 00:32:40 Her changing job title and description over time 00:33:00 Steve Herron’s impact on her career and the college as a whole 00:34:50 Closing remarks � https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/3903cb6c00d6a91797c4e7e8e10afd35.pdf a785059d2544ed9586f1c39f0bf64cd3 PDF Text Text Interview with Kathy Carter by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, December 3, 2018 LYNNE GELBER: We ready? Okay. This is, what, the third of December already? 2018, and we are here with Kathy Carter, this is Lynne Gelber interviewing Kathy with the help of Brianna Logan, class of 2000? BRIANNA LOGAN: '20. LG: '20. Goodness. So, Kathy, thanks for coming in again. Why don't we start by having you tell us when you came to Skidmore? KATHY CARTER: Good morning, I'm happy to be here. I came to Skidmore April 1986. At that time Joe Palamountain was President. Ed McCluskey was Director of Human Resources where I worked. Karl Broekhuizen was the head of the division I worked in. Dave Marcell was Provost and Eric Weller was Dean of Faculty. It was a great team. LG: Yeah. How did you hear about the job at Skidmore? KC: It was interesting. I came out of... I came out of a business environment, a plant environment, actually, and our... LG: Where was that? KC: That was up in Glens Falls, New York. It was Ciba Geigy Inc. It was Hercules, a Swiss company, before Ciba Geigy bought it. Our health insurance rep from Blue Cross Blue Shield told me about the opening at Skidmore and thought it would be a good fit. So I decided to apply for it. LG: Did you grow up in Glens Falls? KC: I was born in Troy, New York and spent my first four years in Troy and then �at four, my father had a transfer. He worked for, at that time it was called Niagara Mohawk, which turned into National Grid, and got a transfer up further north. So we then moved to Glens Falls and I literally grew up in Glens Falls. LG: Good. KC: My memories are in Glens Falls. LG: And that's what's important. KC: Yes. LG: How did you learn the skills necessary for the kind of work with human resources? KC: I grew up in the environment, workwise, when I was working for Ciba Geigy. I was transferred into the human resource department and had a couple of very, very good directors who really taught me the ropes of being in human resources and working with all the benefits. And I had my introduction to labor relations there, also. So it was, was a learn- on-thejob concept for me. Very interesting. LG: And did those concepts translate well when you took the job here? KC: Yes, absolutely. There were things that struck me funny at the time, not anymore, of course, when I came here, and it was all the political women's issues. I think I referred to other women in my department as girls once ("the girls") and found out quickly that wasn't acceptable anymore. It was in the land of business, but not here. So it was things like that I really had to learn differently, and easy enough done if I paid attention. Few slips along the way, I'm sure, but you picked it up pretty quick. As far as the skills, you know, HR skills are HR skills no matter where you work. You have to walk the line where you're doing the best for the employees and doing the best for the �employer. So those skills I brought with me, and they just grew over time here since I was here so darnn long. LG: What were your biggest challenges? KC: Probably my biggest challenges... My biggest challenges were always trying to- some of my biggest challenges- were always trying to keep a good handle on the healthcare costs. Clearly, because that affected the college and then over time, as the healthcare costs grew, it began to affect the employees, because we in-putted cost sharing, as 99 other employers did. 99% of employers. So it was always trying to find a good balance for the employees and the employer. In that, that was probably one of my biggest challenges here. LG: When did cost sharing start? KC: You know, I can't remember exactly. I could guess, but it would be strictly a guess. It had to be.... I'm guessing the late 90s. I'm guessing the late 90s. LG: And how did you come up with the percentage? KC: The college, my department really, hired some consultants that worked in the area and helped us with how to construct that. And it was salary based, you know, the lower salary paid the least amount. Those with the highest salary paid a higher percentage. It was thought to be fair across the board. LG: So this would pertain to both the union and non-union personnel? KC: It wasn't the union because the union...The union, anything you do with the union, because it's a contract, has to be negotiated, so they weren't in the picture on that at the time nor was the college choosing their healthcare for them. The union had their own healthcare and we paid the premium for them- it changed over the years, I understand, after I left, but at that time, we could negotiate. We could attempt to negotiate the cost, but you didn't want �to leave them without healthcare so that was a negotiating issue. But as far as the support staff and the admin and the faculty, they were all under the original cost sharing because they shared in all the healthcare plans we offered. LG: How would you decide what plans to offer? KC: When I first came to the college, the plans were set. There were three plans, and as years went by we did make some changes. We went out to bid with different insurances. At one point we joined a consortium and we were the only ones that ended up buying into that plan, which...it was a pretty decent plan. LG: Which consortium, which plan? KC: It was through the... I won't get the names right because I've been retired so long now. But it was a Mohawk something consortium, yes, Mohawk Hudson Consortium. And it was like our own personal.... LG: So, those were colleges, similar kinds of colleges in the region? KC: Absolutely, but we were the only ones that bought into the plan, so it became our own personal plan, you know, which was I didn't think was a bad thing. LG: That wasn't a self-insured plan? KC: That was a self-insured plan. That was probably our first self-insured plan. I liked them because you had some control over them and you always bought stop/loss insurance in case somebody's bills went over a certain amount, stop/loss insurance kicked in. Of course, then, you know, if you had too many of that, you might've gone out to bid again the next year on the stop/loss insurance. So there were always things that you were trying to balance. �LG: So when Skidmore had its own plan, there were three... KC: When I first came here, they were Blue Cross Blue Shield, which was what we thought was that of the 8020 plan, and MVP and CD PHP. Those are the three plans. LG: And those were the plans that you self-insured? KC: None of those were self-insured at the time, the first self-insured was when we changed the Blue Cross Blue Shield plan to the consortium plan, yes, and since then we stayed self-insured on the main health insurance. LG: Interesting. KC: Health insurance is always interesting and highly regulated, so.... LG: What other challenges did you have? KC: There were union challenges. Union employees would like things different at times, but you have to follow the contract. It was only in negotiating a new contract every three years that either side had an opportunity to negotiate changes in the contract. So that was always a challenge with wants and needs, and contracts and making people feel, not happy in their work, but satisfied in their work because of issues that may or may not arise. LG: What were the most fun things? KC: Working with employees. When I first came here, it wasn't as busy as it got in later years. So I could have some, what I called free time, in my day and I would just walk the campus and stop in different offices whether they were administrators' offices or faculty departments' offices, and just chat with them. Or at one point I offered to come to faculty meetings for departmental faculty meetings and talk about benefits and to answer questions. So the �interaction with the employees, whether they were the faculty or the admin or the support staff was always fun for me. I like people so I was in the right job at the right time, I guess. LG: In those interactions what was surprising to you? KC: I don't think there were any surprises for me. I know I made some very good friends when I worked at Skidmore and I think I shared with you previously that I had a lot of friends on the faculty side of the house, also. And when I went to a faculty meeting, and it wasn't every faculty meeting, but, you know, my friends would pull me over to sit with them and I later found that, as a general rule of thumb, anyone from the administration always sat in the upper right-hand side of the auditorium. LG: Was this in Filene? Or where was this? KC: So, I think it was in Gannett. It was in Gannett because that was larger then and that's usually what held everybody. So that alone was surprising to me, but you know history's history and tradition is tradition. But my friends still pulled me over. It was fun, you know, it was fun. Skidmore is a great place to work. LG: Did you get teased about it among your colleagues? KC: No, I don't think they'd ever said anything to me but I'm sure I'm sure they did some thinking about it. But I I would imagine my people in my area that I reported to were probably happy that I made friends in the faculty as well as I did every other area. It's just good, I don't want to say business, but it's just good practice. LG: There are certain parties that people socialize at during the year- is that where you would also make contacts with faculty or staff? KC: Sure yeah, and especially in the early days I would go to any party- just by �myself. You know whether it was the social...I remember going to a party for Phyllis Roth. I can't remember why, but it was in Falstaff’s. And I went over by myself, but I knew enough people that I was comfortable, but I got to meet more, you know. Or I'd go to after faculty (meeting) get-togethers, and you know I always enjoyed chatting with different people there. It was, I guess, I was very social during those years. It was fun. LG: (laughing) Are you implying that you're not social now? KC: Well I don't go to as many parties anymore, but my life is pretty full. I guess I am social but in different ways. LG: So you served under several different presidents, didn't you? KC: I did. When I came it was President Palamountain, and I can't remember the year he retired, but it was in that first year-of the date he retired, I should say- but it was in that first year of mine because David Porter came in '87, July 1987, I believe. So I was here a little over a year -when David Porter started so I didn't have a lot of time with Joe Palamountain. But, what I remember of him, I remember him as a very shy man, at least with me he was, and you know I could stop and chat with anybody. And then when David Porter came he was so different for me, you know, but I had a longer exposure to him. I guess he was my favorite, David Porter, if we're picking favorites. LG: He was? KC: Well, he was so outgoing and, you know, he knew everybody's names! And he would write these little thank you notes to people just out of the blue. And I can remember when I got one from him, I just got such a kick out of it. And the puns he would tell publicly in his meetings, you know, some people would just shake their heads- yes, groan- and some people would just laugh out loud. But, he was a good, kind person and he seemed to have the leadership the college needed at the time. At least from my viewpoint. He �was well-liked and his wife was very nice, and I still have lunch with her to this day. And you know that David died a few years ago as we all remember, you know, but Helen is still local and she's a good egg. So I keep getting together with her. There are other retirees, you know, retirees are always fun for me. They were the fun group and there was a lot I socialized with. And there's a few that are still around that I knew well and that I still see. LG: So who was president when you retired? KC: When I retired Phil Glotzbach was president. LG: And you had similar kinds of interactions with Phil? KC: I didn't have many interactions with Phil. I think he knew who I was, of course, but there wasn't as many opportunities, I guess, to interact with him. After David left, we had our first female president, and she wasn’t here that long and then I think Phil came after. And I didn't have a lot of interaction with Jamie Studley, our female president. But I certainly knew her, also. You know, when anybody new on that level came, I would go over to their home and sit and go over the benefits with them and their spouse, if they had one, or partner, and explain it. So I certainly had an opportunity to meet everybody at first. You know, it was the same with any new employees that came that were benefit-eligible. I got to know so many people on campus because I was the one who had to explain the benefits to them so that really gave me an easy way to meet people. LG: So would you meet with a group or meet individually? KC: Sometimes I met individually, but I would have a group meeting and I might have five or six in it, I might have two, I might have three. If it was one, you know, it's just done in my office but I can't remember how often I did the group meetings- maybe it was monthly or every couple weeks, depending on the hiring, of course. You know, but that was a nice way for me to meet �people and they got to know me and I think it's always easier when you can put a face to a name so if you do need help in an area you know who to reach out to. LG: So you would be explaining benefits to people as they were coming in? KC: Yes. LG: What about people who were about to retire? KC: Oh, I'm the one that helped all of them and that wasLG: Did you start that program? KC: You know, I don't know. I just did what I was used to doing when somebody was going to exit. They needed to understand what benefits they were going to leave with and how they would work and what paperwork needed to fill out for to get money, so they can make a nice living, or connect them with one of the reps from the retirement companies to go over their retirement plan, even before they were going to retire to make sure they were on the right path so they could have a good retirement. LG: When you first came were TIAA-CREF and Vanguard already the providers? KC: Yes, yes. I think Vanguard was relatively new then, but a lot of our employees- it was probably half-and-half, you know, half went to TIAA and half went to Vanguard. So they had a presence on campus for sure. Both good companies. LG: So, Kathy, what have you been doing since you retired? KC: Um, I guess just living life. I've been gone 8 years now. This month- it's 8 years at the end of the month. I have a daughter and her family locally, so my two grandchildren are local, so my grandson is 13. So he doesn't need a �sitter anymore, but my granddaughter- I'm the back-up when my daughter needs help, which I'm happy to do or there's lots of sleepovers with that sweet little seven-year-old. I have a handful of good friends that I'll go to lunch with or dinner with or go to the movies with. I can catch up on books, or, I own my own home, so I have quite a large yard to take care of. I have a huge flower garden. I've done some traveling but not extensively. You know, I've been to Canada. I visited Texas. I've been to Maine. I've been to Chicago. You know... LG: Do you travel alone or do you travel with a group? KC: No, I've traveled alone usually and sometimes, sometimes, once in a while it was with a group. But mostly alone and it's to people I know. So I don't think my travel has been extensive, but it's been enough for me. LG: Do you ever go with retiree groups on their excursions? KC: No, I haven't. I haven't felt the need to, or the time, to tell you the truth. I can remember always coaching people that come to me and say, you know, I don't know if I should retire. And I'd always say, you know, you know when you're ready to retire, and it happened with me, too. I knew when I was ready to retire. And, you know, I had a full life right from the beginning, and the employees that retired would come back and say to me, "I don't know where I found time to work before." Well, I've begun to say that phrase. I don't have time to keep adding new things in it because my calendar is pretty booked, so.... LG: Would people be worried about having enough to live on? KC: I think people should always be worried about that you can, you know, very easily take care of planning by taking advantage of things Skidmore HR office offers. They bring in a retirement specialist not affiliated with either company, who's excellent. They bring in TIAA-CREF, they bring in Vanguard, so people should always be aware of that. �LG: What involvement did you have with that, bringing people in? KC: I brought in, I made arrangements, sort of arrangements, you know, because these people were already available to you. And other colleges had recommended Dave Carbone, so I made arrangements to get him in here and I think he's been a pretty big hit, because he still comes here. LG: Do you want to explain what he does? KC: Well, I went to him as an employee because I wanted to see. And he really goes over your plan. What are your plans, what are you thinking, have you filled out a budget, so do you know how much money you think you will need? How do you have your money situated in funds? How much you should withdraw, what percentage you should withdraw a year to make sure it lasted as long as you could. So, you know, he really goes over so, so many things with employees. So they really should take advantage. And of course, the TIAA-CREF and the Vanguard people are looking at their plan and asking you what your goals are. And you always have to look at your history of your family and this might sound morbid, but you know how long your mother and father survived. How long did your siblings survive to get an idea and is just an idea of how long you are going to survive. So do you need retirement funds for 15 years or 30 years? So you know, those are all legitimate things to start thinking about. I can remember I went to somebody else after I had gone to Dave and I actually made these charts on an Excel spreadsheet where I had all my income coming in in my budget going out and you know the man I saw, it was local and of course he knew me, and he just laughed and shook his head. And said, "Not many people bring this, these charts but they look pretty good." So I think I was exposed to it for so many years, I just went ahead and played with numbers for myself. But these people will help you do that so... LG: So what kinds of things were most fun, and what kinds of things did you bring to the table at Skidmore that hadn't been here before? �KC: You know I don't know what I brought that wasn't here before because Skidmore had a pretty good system set up. I don't know if I brought more people skills or not to be honest with you. I like to think I did, but I don't know because, you know, you don't know what you don't know, you know? I think- I'm pretty sure I had to bring a level of assistance to employees they might not have gotten before because I was so hands-on. LG: The other day you were talking about technology. KC: Well, that's true. Technology was interesting because in the early years I talked about where I would go roaming, really, sometimes for an hour on campus to pop in and talk to people and it was a good way to connect. But as the years went on, and technology got better, and these new programs were brought in. It was wonderful because you got all these reports coming out the back end which helped you in your job no matter what kind of job you had, but it also took more time to input all the information and the data that was needed so you can get the reports out. So I found over the years, and other people also did as we spoke of it, bound to the office more because there was, there were more hands-on things you had to do technology wise. I know one of the big differences working for business and then coming to the college was in business you could assign people to do a lot, whether it was to write a letter, type a letter for you (which was called typing back then) or put some information into the computers for you. But when you, when I came here, really you were at, you know, even in business, I had a whole law department I could call on down near the city for any legal questions I had. So you know your contacts are all there because they worked with you. But when I came here, you know, you really did your own letters, and you did your own calls and you had to investigate all the legal ramifications yourself. As time went on, and different HR directors came in, you know, there were those contacts set up, but it wasn't for years, probably until the last HR director came in that I really have a goodLG: And who was that? �KC: Barbara Beck- that I really had a good contact. And she was the first one that brought in the law firm, and they did a lot for the college in other areas, but for me it was a good contact for labor relations issues. If I couldn't interpret the contract myself or the law. And they had some good benefit people connected to them either in Albany or Syracuse. So, you know, it was a lot of years where you had to scramble and find your own resources on this. So, you know, the college evolved over time and got better, as you would expect. LG: So, are there other things you want to say about your time at Skidmore? KC: You know, I personally loved working at Skidmore. I loved my job. I loved helping people. I loved helping Skidmore. It was fun and... LG: Did your job title change over the years? KC: I always did the same work and my title changed over the years to reflect the union part, which, you know, I guess... LG: So when you came, your title was? KC: I was the Assistant Director for Benefits and then as the union side of it grew, when Steve Haran was here as the business manager, he really was the key contact for the union. And I think I talked about him when I was in before. He did a lot for the college, and I don't think everybody could see that and I understand it. But he was fun to learn from because he had a lot of knowledge on how to negotiate things. Whether it was with the contractor on getting supplies for a new building or negotiating with the union and I think I mentioned before that he'd turn the budget into pennies and maybe it would end up as: "We have 15 pennies and we can spend it on these items. It's going to be up to both of us to agree on how to spend it." And I could never ever figure out how he got it down [to] pennies. I gave up trying, but I �learned a lot from him and then when he retired, the HR director really took over the role of lead negotiator and it was probably the first, it was it was probably the first director that could assume those duties. And, you know, my role over the 25 years I was here just kept growing on the union side. So eventually I probably had the longest title at the college. LG: Which was? KC: It was Assistant Director for Benefits, Administration, and Labor Relations. And that really reflected you know the two sides of the house I did. After I left I think they hired somebody to do labor relations. And they, you know, they split it out. But I must be, I juggled well at the time. LG: Anything else you want to add? KC: Not that I can think of other than again I'll say Skidmore is a great place to work. The employees, the faculty, they were fun people, intense people at times, sometimes mad people, but always the best. It was a great place to work. LG: Well, thank you Kathy, it's been a pleasure. KC: Thank you, Lynne. Thank you, Brianna. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kathy Carter Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35:13 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit February 14, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Kathy Carter Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 3, 2018 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Kathy Carter joined Skidmore’s Human Resources team in 1986 where her primary responsibilities included administering the college’s benefits programs and managing its labor relations. In this interview she describes transitioning from a corporate to academic work setting, overseeing complicated health insurance programs, negotiating union contracts, and -most especially- her enjoyment in interacting with employees across the college. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History CREF David Carboni David Porter Helen Porter Human Resources Labor Relations/Benefits Retirement Planning TIAA Vanguard https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/8a490139188c429472c9bba294a7014d.jpg 786316ef1a9cf19bf83ffc97f9c4cda3 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/8c7bc545d98c897b337600b4a526be16.mp3 42376f4afe241f0b71f16cfe4e5715c7 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/cf49a5b921a0323510c5f73baf6ac47f.pdf 9291c6e701d0865e6b92d295962ccb53 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Dave Marcell Years at Skidmore: 1964-1992; 2001-2008 Interviewer: Lynne Gelber Location of Interview: Lucy Scribner Library, Skidmore College Date of Interview: January 15, 2019 00:00:00 - Introduction by Gelber 00:00:30 - Where Marcell grew up, history of his education. 00:00:45 - Story of how Marcell heard about the job at Skidmore College 00:02:55 - The American Studies program at Skidmore during the ‘60s 00:04:20 - The death of Val Wilson and Marcell accepting the job offer at Skidmore 00:06:00 - Further description of the American Studies Department and Marcell’s responsibilities as the head of the department 00:07:24 - The classes Marcell taught during the beginning of his career 00:09:00 - Growth of the program and becoming a department 00:10:08 - Friction between the American Studies department and other departments 00:10:55 - Course registration of Fall ‘64 00:13:00 - Marcell’s biggest challenges during his career 00:15:20 - The hiring of new professors in the American Studies Department 00:16:00 - How Marcell became the Provost and why the job was open in the first place 00:20:00 - Comparison of Skidmore to other colleges at which Marcell worked 00:21:30 - Challenges of being the Provost at Skidmore College- becoming a co-ed college 00:24:40 - The orange juice riots 00:26:00 - Development of new landscaping and buildings on campus 00:28:20 - Aggregate cost of all capital investment at Skidmore 00:28:47 - How Skidmore came to build the new campus 00:30:28 - Funding new buildings on campus 00:33:15 - Expanding the applicant pool beyond just women 00:35:00 - Mishap writing letters to parents of prospective students 00:37:30 - Describing the collegial culture of Skidmore 00:39:55 - The tightness of the budget during the ‘60s and ‘70s 00:42:40 - Number of females on the faculty 00:44:30 - Rejection of a union for the faculty 00:45:50 - Marcell describes the nursing program 00:47:30 - Downfall of the nursing program 00:52:00 - Beginning the Phi Betta Kappa Chapter at Skidmore 00:54:20 - Discussing how special Skidmore was as an employer in Marcell’s experience 00:57:00 - Having to fire someone for the first time 00:58:00 - Discussing positive relationships with colleagues 00:59:03 - Closing remarks � https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/e208c12ea8a061083426217f919e4a10.pdf 693c01817a67d8f5be220afe5db7c36d PDF Text Text Interview with Dave Marcell by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, January 15, 2019. LYNNE GELBER: This is Lynne Gelber and I'm here with Dave Marcell. It's January15th, 2019. So Dave, let's start by telling us where you grew up grew up. DAVE MARCELL: I grew up in central Florida in the 40s and 50s, my parents retired after World War II. I went to public school in Deland, Florida, and then attended the university that was in the townStetson University. One of my professors at Stetson was an American studies PhD from Yale. He was my mentor and ideal, and thanks to his influence I went on the Yale. Did a doctorate in American Studies from '58 to '64. The last year I was at Yale, I was teaching in the history department and finishing my dissertation and I got a phone call from the secretary in the American Studies department. She said, "Would you please come over here. There's a man here who wants to interview you." I said, "What's that for?" She said, “For a job!" I said, "Well, I've got a job." She said "Well, I don’t know what to do with them. Would you please come over here? He's very nice." And I said, "Well, I've got pick my dissertation up from the bindery and drop it off. I'll be over there in an hour." And I went over, and it was Edwin Mosley. LG: And Edwin's position at the time was? DM: Edwin Mosley's position was Dean of the Faculty at Skidmore College. We had a nice chat. LG: Do you know how he had heard of you? DM: He was, he just happened to swing by. He was visiting doctoral programs in American Studies, and I don't know where he had been before. His degree was from Syracuse, which had a doctoral program. But, anyway, we had a nice chat. I remember saying that I had a job I was going to continue on as an instructor for the following year, but he described Skidmore and the position and I liked him and I said, "Sure I'll come up." And so, I came up with their American Studies department. �LG: Now, was there an American Studies department? DM: No, there was an American Studies program and it had been up and running for three or four years and the person who was coordinating, directing it, was leaving. He had gotten tenure, but he was leaving and he'd accepted a position at Long Island University. So, I came up and they had a long schedule of two days of meetings and it started off with 1/2 an hour with the president of the college, with Val Wilson, and I think this was a Thursday afternoon. I spent 1/2 an hour, 45 minutes with him- lovely, lovely man- and it was just a wonderful conversation and I thought, "My gosh, if the leadership of the college is reflected by this man, he would be a wonderful person to know." And then the Dean turned me over to a faculty member named Irwin Levine. He put Irwin on my case he did. He didn't want the fellow who was leaving to introduce me to the students because there'd been some complexity about his departure and his relationship with the other students. So anyway, Irwin took me by the hand, the arm and squired me around and we were instantly friends. And the rest sort of his history. LG: Except that Val WIlson... DM: I went back to New Haven, picked up the New York Times on Sunday, and there was Val Wilson's obituary. He had died either that afternoon or the next afternoon. He was out playing tennis with a student. He had a heart condition, and he knew that he had this condition, but it was still a very sudden and terrible thing. So Edwin Mosley called up and said, well, our decision will be delayed but anyway, the visit was just terrific. I loved Saratoga and, anyway, they made me an offer and I accepted it. The date of this, I remember because I came up here on the 15th of April and... the year? Oh, God. 1964. Yeah, I remember driving up the Northway thinking, "Gosh, I wonder if I'll be coming this way again." And so, anyway, they made the offer and I accepted it and it was, it was an unusual organizational structure because the American Studies program-and I think was the only interdisciplinary program that had a major- there was an Asian studies program, but I don't even think it had a minor at that time. Anyway, what the director of American Studies did was offer core thematic courses in American culture and then the student major would flesh out this core of courses with courses with courses �in the discrete departments in the American subject areas. And as it happened in those days, the American assistants in history, government, or philosophy were all just really super people so the aggregate of the program, depending on how the students organized their courses, was really terrific. LG: So your title was what? DM: Director of the American studies program. I was... LG: And your responsibility was... DM: I coordinated all the courses, I supervised all the majors, and the majors were only juniors and seniors, but there were about 20. I would guess something like that. I taught- in those days the full load was six courses. I got one course relief from doing all of that other stuff and then I had to fabricate from whole cloth, five new courses, and coordinate with the students supervise the senior theses, which was part of the requirement in those days... LG: So what courses did you teach? When you started? DM: I had a two-semester sequence called the history of American civilization, which was a freshman and sophomore lecture coursetwo lectures in one discussion group a week. And then I had seminars in different subject areas. I had one called American Documents that took traditional all major readings in the subject area. And then I had an interest in American intellectual history. I had, I wrote a dissertation on the idea of progress and its place in the pragmatic tradition, James Dewey and Beard, so I taught a course in American Intellectual history. Gosh, I can even remember- a senior seminar in how to use interdisciplinary sources to flesh out and put into context certain events and episodes in American history and so forth. LG: How many students were in there at the time? DM: In the seminars there would be anywhere from 10 to 15. In the large freshman course, there were 50 or 60 and it was it was a full load. I don't remember a lot of it because it went by so fast. We had a new �baby. LG: So you had 50-60 people in one section? DM: Yeah. Large lecture, two lectures a week, and I broke it down into three or four discussion sections. And then the program grew, and in about, by about '67 we really needed another faculty member and were authorized to do that. I hired a guy from the University of Pennsylvania. Brilliant, wonderful colleague, Stuart Bluman. Did you ever remember Stu Bluman? He spent most of his career at MIT and then at Cornell and he was with us for a couple of years. And at that point we became a department and what, what status that gave us, I do not know, but it created a lot of friction with other departments. LG: Like history? DM: History, Philosophy. Back in those days the departments were really quite siloed and there was great emphasis on each department as a major. There were, other than the Asian Studies program and American Studies, there weren't any interdisciplinary majors. It wasn't until the late 60s the students could create an elective major and then later until the Liberal studies curriculum came into being, and the college made a macro commitment to interdisciplinary team as part of its identity was almost a complete reversal of what I experienced as a as a young faculty member here. LG: Do you think the conflict was competition for majors? DM: Oh yes, oh my goodness. My first formal experience at Skidmore was registration of for the fall semester of '64 and symbolically, the registration was down in the Canfield Casino and each department had a table and people could go around and pick courses out. And there was a senior History major who wanted to take the course in American Documents, but that was a 200-level and she needed a 300-level and I said well I think what I can do is give you some extra assignments, and you can sign up for an independent study. You'll take the 200-level course, do this extra work... and she's all, "That sounds wonderful." So I signed off. Five minutes later, like a V2 rocket, the chair of the history department was in front of me, Louise Dalby, "What are you doing, blah blah blah." I told her what �happened. She said you didn't ask my permission. I said, "Oh, well, it's better to ask permission than excuses, and so forth. Do I have it?" She said, "Of course." Anyway, we became good friends and over the years after that. But I remember someone describing to me the departmentalization as a small well-defined fiefdom of whose boundaries were patrolled by the chair of the department. And that that may echo with some of your recollections, too. LG: What were your biggest challenges, over the years, do you think? DM: Juggling it all, because the field of American studies had a kind of metabolism that was just very rapid, because of its multidisciplinarity. It has all kinds of disciplines and subdisciplines that feed into it. Trying to stay on top of what was happening with the field, as well as make sure that whatever courses you were putting together would be useful and recognizable by people in the field was a challenge. I was lucky I- the second year that I was at Skidmore, '65 or or '66, I went to the state meeting of the American Studies Association and became the editor of a bibliography that came out every year on studies in the theory and teaching of American studies. So I did that for about 10 years and that gave me a kind of professional reason to keep surveying the field and seeing what new programs were offered. What new methodologies and approaches were emerging and so forth. So I kept changing my readings in my courses because when you come out of the graduate program, I was a history- government major as an undergraduate. I had taken one American literature course, but so I had to educate myself in a lot of the areas. So I just kept changing my readings and then try to keep up with myself and stay a paragraph or two ahead of the students. I was also trying to write, and get the book done ... LG: And your program kept growing. DM: And then growing the program kept growing. LG: So then you did some hiring? DM: We hired Prof. Bluman, Stu Bluman, and at what time? I guess about '69 or '70. We hired Mary Lynn, who had spent a year teaching in the history department and gave another dimension to American �Studies. I was trying very hard not to duplicate work that was being done by the Americanists in the other areas, and but by that time, we probably had a total, oh, I don't remember, 30 majors at junior and senior level. And it just kept growing as an enterprise and I stayed as chairman of the department until '77 and then became Provost and academic VP. LG: Now, why did that happen? DM: It happened because I was elected to the search committee for the Provost and we had interviewed three or four candidates and I got a call from the President asking if I would have lunch with him. That was Joe Palamountain, and he asked if I would be willing to resign from the search committee and become a candidate for the Provost job. And I said, "Well if it's okay with the other members of the search committee and if it's okay with the CAPTS committee, yes." And so he did all those bases... LG: In retrospect, do you know why that reconfiguration was taking place? DM: What had happened, and it happened about three or four years after I first arrived at Skidmore, Edwin Mosley, who was Dean of the Faculty, his position was changed into Provost and Dean of the faculty and Norma McCurry, who had been the Dean of the College and who had been in effect, the chief academic officer was moved to report to Edwin. Norma was a brilliant, wonderful woman her- She was a linguist, but she had been in effect, the chief student affairs officer. Edwin, who was a very, very academic affairs. He was he was a very distinguished scholar as well as a just a legendary teacher and so the that division of labor, I think for both of them worked out well. And so what happened was the other person became Dean of the Faculty, do I remember who it was? I'm not even sure. They divided it up at some point. Who became the Dean? Eric Weller became the Dean of Studies and that supplemented some of the academic advising work that Norma had been responsible for. But, by the time Edwin was being replaced, Edwin became ill, and I remember there had to be an acting Dean and whether there was an acting Provost or not, I don't remember. The positions were separated for the purposes of that search, and they ran the search for the Provost first. And then when I was appointed, my responsibility was to run the search for the Dean of the Faculty. That became Eric. We ran a national search on... �boy, these are old synapses, I haven't tested these in a long time (laughs). But Ed, as you can imagine, anybody who moves into an upper level administrative position, after having spent 14 years as a faculty member... Memories are long, issues are complicated, and every idiotic thing I said as a young first or second year faculty member trailed behind me. But, looking back at Skidmore from having moved to other institutions and having worked at- after I return took I took early retirement here when I was 55LG: And what year was that? DM: '91, and I worked at Rollins College for two years. I worked at Bennington College for two years and seeing those institutions and comparing them with Skidmore, Skidmore had a much more professional and collegial culture than those other institutions. As a matter fact, when I went over and worked at Bennington, Bennington was in the middle of a capital campaign and in the middle of that capital campaign, the trustees seized control of the college from the faculty, fired 1/3 of the faculty, and went through the convulsions that... well, they were, they were on the weekly supplement to the New York Times. You may remember some of those things, they ripple out, and Bennington had a culture where every faculty member felt they had a veto over anything at the college and they had a brilliant and interesting and wonderful faculty. But as an organizational structure, their culture was just absolutely toxic. LG: But let's get back to Skidmore. Once you became Provost, what were the highlights, and what were the challenges? DM: Well, the challenges were basically to support the administrative structures that were already in place in terms of both the academic, this cultural student affairs area. All of the deans and directors on the academic side reported up to the Provost and then there were two other VP for business and development. So, one, I had to learn enough about the discrete areas of student affairs, computers. The computers, IT reported to the Provost, and so forth to make sure that we have the right people running those operations I inherited. For example, admissions, about which I knew absolutely nothing. But we happily had a just brilliant, wonderful director of admissions, �Benny Wise, and I asked her what she needed and what I needed to know in order to be her supervisor. She took me under her wing. And we were off and running. One of the first things that she said is we have done some things and haven't planned ahead for doing them. I said, "Well, what are you thinking of?" "Well, we went coed." Well I knew we had done that, but I knew it from the point of view of a faculty member. I said, "What are the kinds of planning steps we might've taken and shouldn't-should have?" She said, "Well, all we did was in effect, say the words, we would no longer discriminate against male applicants, and we sat back and waited. And sure enough they began to dribble in." But, and mercifully, because she was such a creative person, she had a whole series of recommendations on how to make the college more attractive to male applicants. But all of these were things that couldn't be siloed, they had to be decisions made in consultation with the faculty, with plant, with development, with alumni affairs, and so forth. LG: Can you give me an example? DM: Well, how does one prepare a 90% single-sex institution to morph into a 60/40%? What are the things that competitive, coeducational institutions offered that we don't? Well, physical education and athletics was one of them, but was only one of them. They had to change all of the dietetic expectations. Do you remember the orange juice riots? LG: I remember, when the trustees were here. Can you describe the orange juice riots? DM: Well, the boys, as they went through the lines over in the dining hall wanted seconds and thirds, and that was a new experience for the staff over there for planning, etc. etc. etc. And they wanted seconds on orange juice (laughs) and this is one of the things about Skidmore and I don't think I appreciated at the time, but Skidmore was in the in the business of inventing itself as an institution on so many fronts. We were building a new campus. That was one decision that we made which was made in the nick of time. We went coeducational and that's another one made in the nick of time and all of these- both of those decisions involved huge leaps of faith. I remember when I first got here that Eric was taken out to see the new campus by Levine and we drove out into the woods and there was a backhoe digging a hole which became the basement of the library. �And I began to realize as I worked at the college after five or 10 years that every time we built a building, the next year, the interior space of that building would have to be changed because it wasn't just right. And so we were, we were lucky enough to be flexible enough to imagine that as we grew programmatically, we had to change the landscape, we had to change the environment and that in turn changed one of the widgets that was planning the next stage, and so forth. And we were doing this on a shoestring. The endowment for Skidmore when it made the decision to build a new campus was under $1 million and we'd never raised capital money. There was one project I heard about later that we raise the money for father's hall that was on the old campus and that was raised through parental solicitation, but the early campus planning that we undertook projected that the new campus would take 25 years and $25 million. Here we are, how many years later the new campus is still- and the latest building is going up- cost more than the... LG: The Integrated Sciences Building. DM: The integrated sciences building cost more than the whole campus. When Joe retired, I remember him, Joe Palamountain. Joe was president from '65 to '87. I remember when he bid farewell and retired from the campus. He reported that during his tenure, we had constructed 37 buildings. What, how many are we done now? it must be 90 or 100. LG: And some of them have been taken down and replaced (laughs). DM: Yeah! I asked somebody in the administration the other day whether we had an aggregate cost of all of the capital investment in Skidmore, in what the campus is now, and nobody quite has it. So, anyway, I guess I keep shifting my focus because I didn't prepare for this, but looking back, it was an act of faith. How Skidmore came to build the new campus was a series of developments that nobody could imagine. The campus, the Hilton estate, had been in probate ever since the 30s. Lucy Skidmore Scribner had tried to get it for the college but it didn't get out of whatever the complexities were behind that until 1960, and we had a parent who was on the Board of Trustees at RPI, J. Eric Johnson, who was the CEO of Texas Instruments, and his daughter had been a student at Skidmore and she'd gotten ill. I don't know the details, but �the college had just taken wonderful care of her, they'd bent over backwards to make sure she didn't lose time, and he was so impressed by that, that when the Hilton estate came on the market, he offered to buy it and donate to the college if the college would build from scratch a whole new campus. And he did that, as Joe Palamountain used to tell the story: We took a deep breath and decided to go for broke and we almost did. (laughs) And he bought this piece of property, 650 acres, $130,000 donated to the college and we went on a- and this is all before I arrived. We had, I think was a Ford foundation grant, to plan the first iteration of new campus planning and that was what was in process when I joined the faculty in '64. We hired architects from San Antonio, Ford and Carson. They had built a number of campuses, one of which was Trinity University in San Antonio. We have some buildings that look very much like that campus. But the planning was systematic, and so forth. Most institutions, most mature colleges, if they venture in a new capital project, the Board won't authorize it unless you've got half in hand and half in site. The only building that I think we may have been able to do that with was the Zankel Music Hall because Arthur Zankel left us a bequest. And everything else, all we had were plans and hopes and dreams and a certain amount of momentum. And we had a, the New York State dormitory bond issue would- they bonded out some of the first buildings that were built. This library that we’re sitting in now was the firstLG: First building? DM: First building to open, and it opened in either '65 or '66. Do you know what it cost? 1.4 million. And so, but what happened is, we just kept venturing and I wasn't aware of this at all. I didn't think about these things when I was a faculty member. I was trying to get my exams graded and so forth, and so but every year as we constructed more, built more, grew more, our capacity to raise money grew and our ability to attract more students grew. And one of the reasons why Benny Wise was so concerned that we hadn't been planful in going coed was that we'd missed opportunities, because in the decade of the 70s a lot of single- sex institutions went coed. Well, our original plan was that we would build a campus for 2,000 women that was what we envisioned in '62, three, four, not realizing the market for women was going to get extremely tough and tight in the 70s. �LG: Because they could then go to other institutions. DM: They had more choices. Yeah, I remember vividly my first meeting with Louise Wise. I said, you know, "What are your biggest problems and how can I help?" I said, "I don't know anything about your area, but if you know what you need, you tell me and we're going to go get it for you." She said, "We need to expand the applicant pool." I said, "Tell me about that. What was our applicant pool this year?" She said, "Oh, 1,830." I said, "How many did we accept?" "Just under 1,830." And I said, "What were we trying to shoot for as a goal?" We were trying to shoot for, I think, was 400 students in the freshman class and I said, "So you're telling me that we are not a selective institution now, but we aspire to become one?" "Yes." "So, okay, how do we do this?" She had a whole series of ideas. One was using new computer capabilities to communicate with the families of applicants in a very targeted and personal way. And I said, "Well, how can I help?" She said, "I have a project for you. I want you to write a letter as the Chief Academic Officer of the College to the parents of each student and tell them why, from an academic point of view, you think Skidmore would be a good place for their son or daughter." I got to work, and we cobbled up a letter. She was also a very good editor, happily, and letters went out. I get a letter back almost in returned mail. This was this was in March of of my first whole year and it was from a father who said, "Dear Provost Marcell, happy to get your letter. I found.... he said but how are you going to find a roommate for my son Nancy?" And I said, "Oh, golly." So I sat down, "Mr. Owens, we're just venturing as a new way of communicating with parents, we're personalizing our communications, and unfortunately the computer kicked out the wrong gender for your letter and I apologize, but don't worry we'll take good care of Nancy should she decide to come here." And I signed this and thought, I can't send this out. I said, "P.S. I still can't understand why you named your son Nancy." (Laughs) Anyway, come September, there's a knock on my door and here's this very nice guy standing there with a very sheepish young woman, and it was Nancy. But that was the kind of the thing that Louise knew what we should be doing, and she had all kinds of other ideas. And the same thing with computers and so forth. I could barely type a letter on the computer, but I talked with the people in what is now IT, what did we need, and was able to go out and find Ken Hapeman. You may remember Ken, I said the same thing to him: "You tell me what you need and I'll try to get it for you." And help me understand why you �needed it and so forth and so on. So it was, it was easy to do because the institution had such a good collegial culture. LG: Could you describe that culture a little bit? DM: Well, I first experienced it as a faculty member on committees. Academic Freedom and Rights, Tenure, Faculty Council. Those kinds of things. But there was also one committee, that I don't even remember what it was called, but it monitored the budget. And there were two faculty members sitting on it, and so forth, and I just began to realize that while I thought, I probably had been here five or six or seven years before I went on that committee. I thought I knew the college pretty well, and until we walked through the budget, I realized I didn't anything about why these budgets were there, why they were organized the way they work, what the history was of each line item in the budget. And it took three or four years to get that, but there was never any- that I experienced- never any attempt to limit the information flow between administration and faculty, and there were always rumors that Ted Butler really had a pot of gold. LG: Do you want to say, for the record, who Ted ButlerDM: Ted Butler was the budget officer and chief accountant, but what I realize, and in those days that the total operating budget of the college was maybe $20 million. Do you know what our contingency fund was for the college? $250,000 for everything. And every budget was so tight that if any operating area of the college could come in with a surplus, it could be then used for those areas that couldn't control her budgets and so forth. Every budgetary year was an act of faith and throwing of the dice. There was one year, about, and I didn't know this until after I retired and read the history of Skidmore. We had four buildings going up at same time and we didn't have the money for any of them, other than what we were able to borrow through bonding and whatever the capital campaign was going to be able to do that year. We got, and you may remember this because it happened- when did you come? LG: '66. �DM: '66. It happened in 1970. Our auditors provided an audit report to the Board of Trustees that they could not assure our publics that Skidmore would be a going concern given the value of the assets, the indebtedness, the cash on hand, etc. etc. And that's a crisis for an institution. And it was reported to the Board and the Board said we will plunge on ahead, we will redouble our fundraising activities etc. etc. We'll either launch a new capital campaign or something and anyways, looking back from this vantage point, Skidmore seems very different. One of the ways we were funding the new campus- when I first got here in '64, the student population was somewhere between 1,350 and 1,400 students and that was '64. In '65, we grew to 1,500 students, we added 10 faculty members that year and we were going out and hiring young faculty at competitive prices and, I don't know, somebody must've been worried about how we were, because we hired at competitive prices, how we were going to stay competitive for those new 10 faculty as they aged in place because Skidmore's upper level salaries were not competitive, and so forth. So here we were trying to make it up as we went. LG: Do you think it was because there were a lot of females on the faculty? DM: That was part of it because I know there had been times that I heard about back in the depression where married couples had to split one salary and women were notoriously underpaid, etc. Probably when I came here, 3/5 of the faculty were female, something like that. It was like you, somewhere I heard this image at a development conference, and it really struck me to the quick. It's like imagining some guy running down the street with a bag of bicycle parts and is trying to put the bicycle together, get on it and pedal and accelerate all at same time. And thinking back, this is what Skidmore was going through. I can remember in '70 or '72. All of a sudden we were not to get the salary increase for the next year and what a blow this was to people. We all thought, "Oh my God!" Well, we managed to scratch up, I think a 2% increase belatedly after the damage was done from telling everybody no raises this year. LG: Yeah, faculty wasn't happy about that, were they? DM: Faculty was ever happy about anything. And I'll tell you one of the reasons why they're not happy. And this is sort of self-analysis, too. Faculty are really smart and every faculty we've got is the expert in �their field. LG: Do you think that's why the faculty ultimately rejected a union? Remember that? DM: Did we ever really seriously consider a union? LG: We had representatives. DM: Several groups were talking about it I know. I don't know, but it's very hard to go from a situation where, say you're in a department of 10 people and you're the expert on so-and-so, but you've also got opinions about everything, and I remember trying to grasp all of the things that in '77 I suddenly found myself administratively responsible for, and I didn't know anything about. So I'm thinkin, "Okay, well...." Anyway. LG: Those are challenges! Okay so what do you think was the greatest moment for you? Of course, of your career here. DM: Gosh. I'll start at the other end. The most difficult series of experiences was the closing of the nursing department. And that that was difficult personally because the first year that I was here I had in my freshman class a senior nurse who was just brilliant. She was just, and then over the next couple of years, the old nursing pattern was you spend your first year in Saratoga then go to New York for two years of nursing, you take advantage of all those clinical sites and all of the sophistication of the hospitals, and this and that, and then you'd come back to Saratoga for your senior year. And the women who came back to Saratoga from their senior year, they were worldly, they were cosmopolitan. They hadyou talk about growth- and anyways so I always just loved the nurses. And then one of the things that happened in the late 70s, as I kept working with Louise Wise for admissions, she said, "We're going to have a hard time enrolling our class in the nursing program." She alerted me to that about the second or third year. I said, "What's happening? Why, why? We have had at Skidmore since the 20s a baccalaureate nursing program that really is a flagship program." I would venture to say that of all the programs we had at Skidmore, it had the most power and prestige of any of our programs. Better than art, better than, I don't know, what our strong programs were. �LG: Can you describe the downfall? DM: Well, what was happening across the country and, finally by the time our program graduated the last nursing student in '85. Statistically, women who wanted a career in medicine, more women wanted MDs than BSs in nursing. And nursing programs all around the country, distinguished programs were just folding. Well, it's a complicated thing. As we began to realize that this was a problem for Skidmore, we had a building on 38th St., a campus that housed 80 some odd students, classrooms, labs- wonderful building, beautiful piece of location, right around the corner from the big-what was a big hospital down there? Anyway. I remember the year that we finally made the decision that we would close the program, Louise had said we need to enroll 40 new nursing students. We have an applicant pool of X. And if we get 15, we'll be lucky. And we needed to fill those beds in the nursing building down there. I don't know what the building cost. Anyway, it was happening all over the country and we had done studies. The chair of the board directed me to make a study about the field of nursing and what he wanted was a ringing endorsement of the nursing program. I spent three months doing as much research as I could. I came back with a program with a report that said, unless we can find some way of either distinguishing ourselves as different or, whatever, our program is not going to be competitive and that's that. And next we started off with what was, historically, I think probably the strongest program in the college. It was just market forces and, oh God, and we had a very strong nursing faculty. Half of them were graduates of Skidmore and they were fiercely loyal to the program, to the college, and this and that. And one of the things that, as I was trying make this report, we had started a UWW nursing program, and we had 1/2 a dozen students in it. But we had to make use of the Skidmore faculty in order to deliver that program to the UWW students. Well, I said, "Well, is there any nursing program we can affiliate with?" So I went down and talked with the people at Russell Sage. Russell Sage has a very respectable nursing program. And I raise this with the faculty down there and they just curled their lips and would have nothing to do with it because the clinical sites that were available in this area did not compare with the clinical sites in New York. And they were right! On the other hand, what does it take to produce a baccalaureate nursing graduate? Did you have to have all... Anyway, it was doubly complicated as I was to learn because the National League �for Nursing, which was the organization that controlled the standards for the profession, said you could not transfer a course in nursing from one academic program to another. In other words, if you were halfway through your nursing schedule at Sage you couldn't pick up your nursing credits and transfer to Skidmore. The NLN wouldn't....so anyway... LG: I'd like to end this on a high note, though... DM: (laughs) You can edit out some stuff, I hope. LG: One of the most positive moments for you. DM: I think the most positive moment, it's very selfish. We applied for a Phi Beta Kappa Chapter at Skidmore. I think this was like 1970, something like that, and I had gone to a university that didn't have a Phi Beta Kappa Chapter and it had a chapter installed three or four years after I graduated. And one of the nice things about having a new chapter installed is the new institution can pick I think it's five alumni to induct into their Phi Beta Kappa Chapter and Stetson did that for me. So when we were looking at Phi Beta Kappa at Skidmore, one of the criteria is how many of your faculty have Phi Beta Kappa keys. And I was able to raise my hand. And that's small and impersonal. I think some of the big stuff- I was very much in favor of the 4-1-4 curricular change but I didn't play much of a role. I was very much in favor of the liberal studies curriculum because, here we were, as an institution making a commitment to interdisciplinary approaches to...the world is interdisciplinary as we experience it, and so forth. When I first came here, and I had to make sure if I was dealing with Jefferson, I wasn't poaching on the history department's turf or something. And Harry Prosch never forgave me for having the temerity to write about James and Dewey without being a philosopher. Anyway. LG: Dave, thank you so much. This has been fascinating. Bringing back memories... Is there anything that you want to say that we haven't... DM: Well, Skidmore... I think we all knew.... and at different stages in ourI spent off and on 35 years....I retired, I took early retirement when I �was 55, went off and did other stuff and then I came back. And I worked halftime for eight years as a fundraiser. And what I realized is how special, how lucky we are. Yeah, God. When Irwin was squiring me around the first day on campus, we walked across, were out behind Father's Hall and Henry Gallant comes out. How are you, and we chatted, and it was fun, and this is my department chair this and Henry said, "When at Harvard, I did this and that, we chatted." Henry went off and Irwin said that's my department chair, I said "Yes, you both mentioned that," and he said, “he can't go to football games." And he said, "He thinks those guys down there in the huddle are talking about him." (laughs). You'll have to edit some of this stuff out. (laughs) LG: Dave, thank you so much for doing this. DM: Well, there's so much more to talk about, but on the other hand, and I didn't realize this until you-I thought Skidmore was the norm, because it's all coming out of graduate school, I went straight from college to graduate schools to Skidmore and I didn't know anything about... I took the job as Provost at Rawlinson, got there in August and the President told me my first assignment was to fire the athletic director. And I said, "Well, why haven't you done that?" "Well, we were saving that for you." "And have you already reached the decision that should happen?" "Yes." I said, "Okay." He was a very, very nice guy and there was a whole history of conflict with coaches and this and that. Anyway, so, I took him out to lunch less and I said, "What would you like to do with the rest of your life? You're a tenured faculty member and we need a new athletic director, so I have been told." And he couldn't have been nicer. He said, "Well, I'd like to do this and this and this." And I said, "Well, let's do that. " Anyway, our weekly staff meetings are in the president's staff and I'm taking notes furiously. The names don't mean anything. The issues... So I'm taking notes. And about the third or fourth staff meeting Pres. refers to something, and I go back and look at my notes and it was directly opposite to what had been said at the previous day. I looked up and the guy was the vice president for development was looking at me, and he just went..... And I just went, "Oh, shit." But I was lucky with this one when I became Provost, the guy who was the EP for business affairs here was a close friend of Joe Palamountain and he was brilliant guy. He'd been a mathematics major at Syracuse, Jim McCabe, and he was a vice president for research and marketing at Merck before he came here, and he just took me under his wing. We would have lunch once a week and he explained everything and Jim �was a delightful guy in staff meetings. He never argued, and yes was, "Well maybe we ought to try that!" No was "Well, I'm not so sure that's a good idea." I was a faculty member, I was all, "God damn it, we gotta do this, and that." I thought, "I want to grow to be just like that." And it just wasn't in my nature. LG: So a place of good colleagues. DM: Mmm. LG: Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dave Marcell Location The location of the interview Lucy Scribner Library, Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:59:04 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit February 3, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dave Marcell Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 15, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource David Marcell, came to Skidmore as Director of the American Studies program in 1964 and became the College’s Provost in 1977. In this interview he describes early initiatives in interdisciplinary teaching and learning at the College, including a young faculty member’s experience of navigating a curriculum tightly defined by disciplinary boundaries.  Marcell paints a lively picture of the College’s culture and administrative structure throughout the 70’s and 80’s, including the “orange juice riots” and supportive collegial relations. Marcell also reflects on challenges the College faced as it constructed a new campus, navigated the changes created by coeducation, and closed its highly regarded nursing program.  After 10 years away, Marcell returned to Skidmore to work for several years in Advancement.  Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History admissions American Studies Budget Crisis coeducation Eric Weller J Erik Jonsson Louise Wise Nursing Program Palamountain Val Wilson https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/2fc65db6f09995b7e401962caf455231.jpg 942f2249f1ac32a67ccc48ed5a4b47e6 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/c6d8db16dc111fefa7a74af6a57edcda.mp3 91505c425b7d86a6be44e135b5c7c42c https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/dc4db9c6cc4891c471750e87eb93b49a.pdf bed38bf251b7bbac51de2a7611fbf101 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/883ad33313493dbf665ea5a125091e32.pdf a47de97bc4d88f257fcab875ce68f660 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Andrea Wise Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert (Bob) Mahoney Location The location of the interview East Dennis, MA Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:08:46 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit August 17, 2021 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert (Bob) Mahoney Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 6, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Robert P. Mahoney was a professor of biology at Skidmore from 1964 to 1994, with interests centering on microbiology, electron microscopy, and bioethics. He also was instrumental starting Skidmore’s tradition of support for the Red Cross, launching the campus blood donation drives in 1968. In this interview, he talks about how he helped Skidmore secure its first electron microscope and how the Biology Department grew over the years, responding to curricular changes and student interests. The department named its microscopy lab in his honor when he retired, and in 2019 he was recognized as a Red Cross Blood Hero of the Cape, Islands, and Southeast Massachusetts for personally donating 264 pints of blood thus far. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Bioethics Campus Move Curriculum Faculty Gender Equity J-Semester Josephine Case Liberal Studies Palamountain Student Research https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/615efd641ba762ec3b0c6a6b8581618b.jpeg 20472433acaea1c90a859c7ba467a9da Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data photo Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack Kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 10 May 2021 URL https://www.saratoga.com/whatsnew/2018/08/lake-moreau-closed-algae/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Algae bloom Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Description An account of the resource Sign warning of dangerous algae bloom in water https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/fe81192201497d5675426f5aa88dc81e.jpeg ef04b8708495f29a945a77a4707241c2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Map Cartographic document Creator - Organization Company, government agency, or other organization responsible for creating the item (the publisher should not be listed again here unless the same organization had a role other than that of publisher in sponsoring or creating the map). Department of Agriculture Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack Kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 9 May 2021 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County soil map Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1917? Description An account of the resource Soil map of Saratoga County, possibly from 1917 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/10fab164413ba4358088f16aa83b60ed.jpg 45ffcb8b48405b5eb70d663bb798e478 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Brookside Museum Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 1968 Publisher Publisher of the item, or of the book or atlas in which it appears. Brookside Museum Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource R.J. Esmond's Farm Residence https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/ca6e666d23e616f97755ae00e2632396.jpg fef512edce9063b93a4631f437f5b657 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Brookside Museum Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 1982 Publisher Publisher of the item, or of the book or atlas in which it appears. Brookside Museum Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Racetrack https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/5b6498f42905a0cae7d2417790c87b3d.jpg 62fd5208b889d01b9e973b5bcb43772f Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Brookside Museum Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 2007 Publisher Publisher of the item, or of the book or atlas in which it appears. Brookside Museum Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Old Iron Spring https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/421d0f71e9d8e1921937db322974c858.jpg 7593a859ebf2cb3effceabca3d7efa37 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Brookside Museum Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 1991 Publisher Publisher of the item, or of the book or atlas in which it appears. Brookside Museum Subject - Geographic Library of Congress subject headings. For maps: for major geographic locations depicted on the map, followed, in nearly every case, by the "Maps" genre subheading. (For example, "Saratoga Springs (N.Y.) -- Maps.") This field will be especially important when the records from this collection are incorporated into larger databases and catalogs. Ballston Spa, NY Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Work Horses Harvesting Ice https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/3b6526b5880c037336d8cc3d6ffadc44.jpg 7d698ce646ea545502f557bde4778c47 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Brookside Museum Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 2006 Publisher Publisher of the item, or of the book or atlas in which it appears. Brookside Museum Subject - Geographic Library of Congress subject headings. For maps: for major geographic locations depicted on the map, followed, in nearly every case, by the "Maps" genre subheading. (For example, "Saratoga Springs (N.Y.) -- Maps.") This field will be especially important when the records from this collection are incorporated into larger databases and catalogs. Ballston Spa, NY Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Island Mill https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/65cbbc7ab0c36a4430a736fd50795277.jpg b69184d94d7a857870aa1b3391be709b Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Brookside Museum Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 2004 Publisher Publisher of the item, or of the book or atlas in which it appears. Brookside Museum Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tree Alongside Erie Canal https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/d9d1aa5699ab74e8669206157b12fef3.jpg 1a9fe21a7a5a30ab5fdbe322787bc4d2 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Date Depicted (Numeric) Date that the information on the item depicts. In many cases, this will be the same date as that in the date field, but there will be exceptions. For example, a historical map drawnin 1890 might show Saratoga Springs as it was in 1820. Or, the information on the map itself might include detailed information that enables us to extrapolate a date, for example, "based on a survey done in 1841." Many State Archives map catalog records refer to this as the "situation date." 1979 Publisher Publisher of the item, or of the book or atlas in which it appears. Brookside Museum Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Logging Sled https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/40f273d9f84a94e8baf1b87758d279f9.jpg 01b1cfdc38d4760b0f2f6eda604e2739 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Publisher Publisher of the item, or of the book or atlas in which it appears. Brookside Museum Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Union Bag Paper Mill Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Brookside Museum https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/42825de4dd84654438cba2ed373b5e56.jpeg 9342e0f10289ce770bd84a8c3b2e25b3 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data photo Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack Kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 9 May 2021 URL https://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/53868.html Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Geology of Saratoga Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Unknown Description An account of the resource The "great" falls of the Mohawk River - nearby is site of discovery of Cohoes mastodon. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource City of Cohoes https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/dda7ba1bd5415405894bd5d2790af357.jpeg 9b9cc8001a3f79c97129445fc5dd327b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Map Cartographic document Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack Kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 9 May 2021 URL https://www.canals.ny.gov/navinfo/index.html Creator - Organization Company, government agency, or other organization responsible for creating the item (the publisher should not be listed again here unless the same organization had a role other than that of publisher in sponsoring or creating the map). New York State Canal Commission Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Canals Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Unknown Description An account of the resource Graphic showing the various canal systems in Saratoga https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/eedbead97dd39adb4267c37ef02d2d43.jpeg 9e6d80a5365d248ed431ffbbc8bcc94d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Map Cartographic document Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. 1777 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack Kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 9 May 2021 URL Hosted at the Schenectady Digital History Archive, <a href="http://www.schenectadyhistory.org/resources/mvgw/maps/saratoga-oriskany_campaign_map-300.jpg">http://www.schenectadyhistory.org/resources/mvgw/maps/saratoga-oriskany_campaign_map-300.jpg</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Saratoga Orikansky Campaign, 1777 Description An account of the resource Map which shows how many of the forts, battles, and movements of revolutionary war activity in Saratoga County were along the water. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1925 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Nelson Greene, ed. History<em> of the Mohawk Valley: Gateway to the West 1614-1925 </em>(Chicago: The S. J. Clarke Publishing Company, 1925). Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The S. J. Clarke Publishing Company Language A language of the resource eng Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Greene, Nelson https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/96065ce3b2b7b509b0e26517a4d69aa8.jpeg 11e7be1f22956e73a5fedc1c64ba9b1e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Aquatic Habitats Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Map Cartographic document Creator - Organization Company, government agency, or other organization responsible for creating the item (the publisher should not be listed again here unless the same organization had a role other than that of publisher in sponsoring or creating the map). Saratoga PLAN Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack Kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 9 May 2021 Creator - Individual Name of the person or people responsible for creating the item. Seleen, K. Trabka, M. Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. 2013 Date Depicted (Numeric) Date that the information on the item depicts. In many cases, this will be the same date as that in the date field, but there will be exceptions. For example, a historical map drawnin 1890 might show Saratoga Springs as it was in 1820. Or, the information on the map itself might include detailed information that enables us to extrapolate a date, for example, "based on a survey done in 1841." Many State Archives map catalog records refer to this as the "situation date." 2013 Date Published (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the date field that will display. 10/25/2013 Date Published (Numeric) Date the item was printed. This will be set as a date field, accommodating only numbers. The field will be able to handle single dates or date ranges. This will not display, but will be indexed and searchable. 2013 Scope Tiered geographical location (for example: United States, New York State, Saratoga County, Saratoga Springs, Congress Park). This field is here for two reasons: first, to present, at its narrowest level, the scope of the entire item (in other words, not every place name has to be listed here). Second, this field will allow for accurate and helpful narrowing and broadening of geographic searches. County Type For Maps: This subject field describes the purpose of the map. This is a controlled-vocabulary field using terms developed for this project. It is important to note that Map Theme and Map Type are not hierarchical, thus it is possible to have the two fields overlap or even duplicate each other. In determining the purpose of the map, the cataloger should consider the publisher, and, (if known) original use of the map. For example, a map that shows a wide variety of information might be a candidate for General in the map_type field, however, if it was prepared by the state geologist and contains, in addition to everything else, substantial information about the geology and topography of the state, it would be classified as a Geological map. Multiple terms can be used in this field. Digital maps Theme For browsing purposes, we are borrowing and adapting themes from the Library of Congress's American Memory project. Environment and Conservation URL Saratoga Plan, <a href="https://www.saratogaplan.org/conserve/landscape-saratoga-county/">https://www.saratogaplan.org/conserve/landscape-saratoga-county/</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Aquatic Habitats Description An account of the resource A map of the aquatic habitats in saratoga County. Includes a legend that ranks water system quality based on species, habitats, connectivity, and natural/impervious land cover types. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Saratoga PLAN, with help from GIS consultant Seleen Associates https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/23d31aa2f13ead8a77a5bdc4b830f162.jpg 24c0491411e02d69c875de909e96df7f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Photo Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack Kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 9 May 2021 Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. ca. 1900 Date Depicted (Numeric) Date that the information on the item depicts. In many cases, this will be the same date as that in the date field, but there will be exceptions. For example, a historical map drawnin 1890 might show Saratoga Springs as it was in 1820. Or, the information on the map itself might include detailed information that enables us to extrapolate a date, for example, "based on a survey done in 1841." Many State Archives map catalog records refer to this as the "situation date." 1900 Abstract (& Historical Note) Natural language description of the map itself, providing a general summary of the map and noting significant features. This is the place to introduce keywords and proper names that might be of interest to researchers, but do not warrant a separate subject heading of their own. Inset maps should also be described here, with their full titles given. Whenever historical or explanatory information is available, it should be included here as well. This includes information about items or events that are larger than just the map itself; for example, information about cartographers, a description of the map's historical significance (for example, "This is the first printed map of Saratoga Springs"), notes on the laws leading to a map's creation, descriptions of changes in state or county lines, information about the organization that created the map, how often maps were updated, and information about the map's creation and publication. Many State Archives maps have historical information in the catalog record -- that should be captured in this field. Black and white photograph of Ballston Spa, NY Kayaderosseras (sic) Creek water power early 1900s. Provenance: "From P/Miller, June 4, 1952." URL Brookside Museum Collection, <a href="https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/D207A30E-D279-4EF0-A882-823154686130">https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/D207A30E-D279-4EF0-A882-823154686130</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kayaderosseras Creek Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of Ballston Spa, NY Kayaderosseras (sic) Creek water power early 1900s. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource P/Miller https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/70265fbd2d33aaea560ffa2920fe8b97.jpg 38989e29b05e26d5dbb85238b56acaf2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Photo Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack Kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 9 May 2021 Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Brookside Museum, Saratoga County Historical Society (Ballston Spa, N.Y.) URL Brookside Museum, <a href="https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/6FEEFA43-2F0C-4F16-8B0A-397890142778">https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/6FEEFA43-2F0C-4F16-8B0A-397890142778</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sacanadga Dam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1929 Description An account of the resource Aerial view of the construction of the "Great Dam" on the Sacandaga River. (same as 67.008.89 in same folder) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jesse Sumner Wooley https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/3be4164fbe3fb15dfbf2ed2a3e7347f6.jpg 201f706b72aa86508c62711ef5b6b657 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Photo Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack Kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 9 May 2021 Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Brookside Museum, Saratoga County Historical Society (Ballston Spa, N.Y.) URL Brookside Museum Collection,<br /><a href="https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/891FF9A1-17B0-403B-8664-584955647960">https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/891FF9A1-17B0-403B-8664-584955647960</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource A Farmer's bridge over the Erie Canal Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource unknown Description An account of the resource A farmers' bridge over the Erie canal https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/608c742037b07ba5625e19f4749c1adf.jpg c6ba55961caef8e92caf5856cf3389cb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Photo Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack Kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 9 May 2021 Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Brookside Museum, Saratoga County Historical Society (Ballston Spa, N.Y.) URL Brookside Museum, <a href="https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/2B199D6E-4BB1-4830-823E-220886546766">https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/2B199D6E-4BB1-4830-823E-220886546766</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Railroad Station Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1903 Description An account of the resource Postcard of The Ballston Spa Railroad Station in 1903.. https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/5c90a7a81a11d3c53c49a82e1e8a6eab.jpg 34cdbc327ff363a9c26436c620610e77 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data photo Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack Kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 8 May 2021 Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Brookside Museum, Saratoga County Historical Society (Ballston Spa, N.Y.) URL Brookside Museum, <a href="https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/D2090540-601D-42EC-80B3-763807774847">https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/D2090540-601D-42EC-80B3-763807774847</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adirondacks- Hudson River Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ca. 1900 Description An account of the resource Adirondacks- Hudson River with railroad tracks to left and in foreground Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jesse Sumner Wooley https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/ed01966398a5fef77aa4a95fcd42cbb1.jpg 9d18520d0ac9f7eac6796e742301f7b2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data postcard Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack Kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 8 May 2021 Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Brookside Museum, Saratoga County Historical Society (Ballston Spa, N.Y.) URL Brookside Museum, <a href="https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/D25BBB53-9D0F-4607-80BE-974085801494">https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/D25BBB53-9D0F-4607-80BE-974085801494</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Boat Landing, Forest Park, Ballston Lake, NY Description An account of the resource Boat Landing, Forest Park, Ballston Lake, NY Rustic dock, men and women walking about, canoeists Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse Sumner Wooley Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ca. 1900 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jesse Sumner Wooley https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/8711514e1909236d00d7ab0b0b812fe2.jpg 06c7977236115cc87fa9b57d27448fc4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data photo Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack Kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 8 May 2021 Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Brookside Museum, Saratoga County Historical Society (Ballston Spa, N.Y.) Theme For browsing purposes, we are borrowing and adapting themes from the Library of Congress's American Memory project. Environment and Conservation Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. 1900s Date Published (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the date field that will display. 1900s URL Brookside Museum Collection, <a href="https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/3EB6F994-51E1-4046-8848-141531299836">https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/3EB6F994-51E1-4046-8848-141531299836</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Early springs Description An account of the resource Black and white photo of Man getting water from Spring, Ballston Spa, NY https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/2d04b6bf1ee183e282dcc2d5a899d603.jpg 5f753da5ca986fd95ec9a7dfa3b4c62b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data postcard Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack Kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 8 May, 2021 Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Brookside Museum, Saratoga County Historical Society (Ballston Spa, N.Y.) URL Brookside Museum, <div id="dublin-core-source" class="element"> <div class="element-text five columns omega"> <p><a href="https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/A5B5981D-7D1F-41E2-B17F-474046452986">https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/A5B5981D-7D1F-41E2-B17F-474046452986</a></p> </div> </div> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mohawk River/Erie Canal boat with owners Description An account of the resource Mohawk River/Erie Canal boat with owners, Nick Stenburg family, Crescent, NY. The Stenburgs are aunt and uncle of Lyle Warner, Jonesville. https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/ff404b1a1d4014e7c046dc157ffd3fff.jpg d917641d740cecb35df71e8523699de2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data photo Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 8 May, 2021 Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Brookside Museum, Saratoga County Historical Society (Ballston Spa, N.Y.) URL Brookside Museum, <a href="https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/A2642E39-B2CD-4820-BF9B-780610883474">https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/A2642E39-B2CD-4820-BF9B-780610883474</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hathorn Spring House, in State Reservation, Saratoga Springs, N.Y. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1949 Description An account of the resource Colored view of Hathorn Spring House with customers in front. Caption: Hathorn Springs No. 3 is one of the many natural Saratoga mineral waters owned by the State of New York. Situated on the Saratoga - Ballston Route, it is easily reached and crowded Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harry B. Settle https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/c5f3cc2d8f099399400485ca3595c7e4.png 3a8f1cfa47dc59037341cd91b2bf8878 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data etching and typed text Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Miles Herman Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 5/7/2021 Abstract (& Historical Note) Natural language description of the map itself, providing a general summary of the map and noting significant features. This is the place to introduce keywords and proper names that might be of interest to researchers, but do not warrant a separate subject heading of their own. Inset maps should also be described here, with their full titles given. Whenever historical or explanatory information is available, it should be included here as well. This includes information about items or events that are larger than just the map itself; for example, information about cartographers, a description of the map's historical significance (for example, "This is the first printed map of Saratoga Springs"), notes on the laws leading to a map's creation, descriptions of changes in state or county lines, information about the organization that created the map, how often maps were updated, and information about the map's creation and publication. Many State Archives maps have historical information in the catalog record -- that should be captured in this field. Lake George - travel guide - carriage road - Adirondack Railway Publisher Publisher of the item, or of the book or atlas in which it appears. Produced by The Project Gutenberg Ebook from images made available by Cornell University Digital Collection. URL: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/17633/17633-h/17633-h.htm Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guide to Lake George Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1872 Description An account of the resource A section about visiting Lake George from the 1872 edition of Saratoga and How to See It by R.F. Dearborn. https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/4b3cc93da1c8ae64684ae6ad68ab256e.png ac6321b68e15b526b57492189c165a36 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Etching Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Miles Herman Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 5/7/2021 Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. 1872 Date Published (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the date field that will display. 1872 Abstract (& Historical Note) Natural language description of the map itself, providing a general summary of the map and noting significant features. This is the place to introduce keywords and proper names that might be of interest to researchers, but do not warrant a separate subject heading of their own. Inset maps should also be described here, with their full titles given. Whenever historical or explanatory information is available, it should be included here as well. This includes information about items or events that are larger than just the map itself; for example, information about cartographers, a description of the map's historical significance (for example, "This is the first printed map of Saratoga Springs"), notes on the laws leading to a map's creation, descriptions of changes in state or county lines, information about the organization that created the map, how often maps were updated, and information about the map's creation and publication. Many State Archives maps have historical information in the catalog record -- that should be captured in this field. Saratoga mineral springs - watering place - hotels - Lake George - Saratoga Lake Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 1872 Saratoga and How to See It by R.F. Dearborn Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1872 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Produced by The Project Gutenberg Ebook from images made available by Cornell University Digital Collection. URL: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/17633/17633-h/17633-h.htm Description An account of the resource The 1872 edition of Saratoga and How to See It by R.F. Dearborn. https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/01eb5493f7d09d7d701b966635e8d16f.png ce71cd240b0e97cdb1e1b6b44a4937f1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data b/w photos and etching Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Miles Herman Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 5/7/2021 Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. Late 1800s and early 1900s Abstract (& Historical Note) Natural language description of the map itself, providing a general summary of the map and noting significant features. This is the place to introduce keywords and proper names that might be of interest to researchers, but do not warrant a separate subject heading of their own. Inset maps should also be described here, with their full titles given. Whenever historical or explanatory information is available, it should be included here as well. This includes information about items or events that are larger than just the map itself; for example, information about cartographers, a description of the map's historical significance (for example, "This is the first printed map of Saratoga Springs"), notes on the laws leading to a map's creation, descriptions of changes in state or county lines, information about the organization that created the map, how often maps were updated, and information about the map's creation and publication. Many State Archives maps have historical information in the catalog record -- that should be captured in this field. Saratoga Lake - Waterfront - rowing regattas - swimming - boating - fishing - Ryall's Bathing Beach - ice fishing URL https://www.thelagroup.com/2015/10/16/saratoga-waterfront-park/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Early Saratoga Lake Activities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Late 1800s to early 1900s Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Lista Tonneston-McCorkell, "The Story and Strategy Behind the Saratoga Waterfront Park," The LA Group, 16 Oct 2015. Description An account of the resource This is a collection of images of activities on Saratoga Lake that took place during the late 1800s and early 1900s. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The LA Group Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lisa Tonneson-McCorkell https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/8e5c059208179ea95d7dd0e5787f9f22.png 74ade5793ac7deac0b4e1f3043d09404 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Website A resource comprising of a web page or web pages and all related assets ( such as images, sound and video files, etc. ). Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data website Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Miles Herman Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 5/7/2021 Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. 2020-2021 Abstract (& Historical Note) Natural language description of the map itself, providing a general summary of the map and noting significant features. This is the place to introduce keywords and proper names that might be of interest to researchers, but do not warrant a separate subject heading of their own. Inset maps should also be described here, with their full titles given. Whenever historical or explanatory information is available, it should be included here as well. This includes information about items or events that are larger than just the map itself; for example, information about cartographers, a description of the map's historical significance (for example, "This is the first printed map of Saratoga Springs"), notes on the laws leading to a map's creation, descriptions of changes in state or county lines, information about the organization that created the map, how often maps were updated, and information about the map's creation and publication. Many State Archives maps have historical information in the catalog record -- that should be captured in this field. COVID-19 Resources - City of Saratoga Springs - testing sites - vaccination news - mental health support - NY travel advisory - school openings - small business grant program - COVID-19 Emergency Housing Assistance Program Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website URL:<a href="http://www.saratoga-springs.org/2528/COVID-19-DATA-FAQS"> http://www.saratoga-springs.org/2528/COVID-19-DATA-FAQS</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource City of Saratoga Springs COVID-19 Resources Home Page Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-2021 Description An account of the resource This is the resources pages for residents of the city of Saratoga Springs to get updates about the pandemic, including information about mask mandates, local resources and school openings. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource City of Saratoga Springs government Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available City of Saratoga Springs government