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                    <text>Notice
Some of the content presented in this interview transcript details information about
sensitive topics such as systemic racial abuse, institutional abuse, abuse within the foster
care system, and sexual abuse against youth. Please proceed with caution and care.

1

�Interviewee: Jerome Lafayette Narramore
Interviewer: Shanleigh Corrallo
Location of Interview: New York City
Date of Interview: 26 September 2025
Shanleigh Corrallo [SC]: Jerome, thank you so much for volunteering to participate in
this oral history series with descendants of individuals enslaved from New York and
Vermont, that borderland area. The transcript will be housed at Skidmore College to
ensure that your important story is maintained and preserved for future generations. You
can choose not to answer any question during this interview, and you can opt out of the
project at any time. Today's date is September 26, 2025. We are in New York City. My
name is Shanleigh Corrallo, and I'm currently a Mellon Humanities Postdoctoral Fellow
and Research Associate with Skidmore. Can you please state your name and verbally
confirm your consent to be interviewed for this project?
Jerome Lafayette Narramore [JN]: My name is Jerome Lafayette Narramore and I offer
full consent for this project.
SC: Wonderful! Thank you so much. So let's start out with your introduction of yourself,
your family, and anywhere you really want to start.
JN [00:01:08] Wow. There are a lot of different portals that we could go enter in on. Well, I
wasn't born with this name. I was born the summer that Dr. King was assassinated and
RFK. I was born in New Jersey, Highland Park, New Jersey. Well, actually New Brunswick,
which is the next town over. I was raised in a household with two parents and an older
brother. And I was raised to believe that my mother, whom I knew was an orphan, was of
Sicilian biological parents, and that my father was of Anglo British, Scottish stock. And I
discovered that none of those were true down the road, a long time down the road. So
that's the portal that we can begin on.
SC [00:02:18] That's a lot. That'sJN [00:02:18] It could be a lot, yes. It's a very thick layered chocolate cake, so to speak.
SC [00:02:27] So let's continue with that thick layer of chocolate cake. So you have
lineages in many different parts of the country through very detailed research that you
have done. You and I have talked before about- you have tracked your lineage from
Vermont to Whitehall, New York to Virginia to Louisiana, I think you said today, right? So
maybe can you talk about those different branches of your family tree?
JN [00:03:15] Sure, let's see. So I guess it all began with this rumor that was on my
father's side of the family that came from Rutland County, Vermont, that their family was
related to Queen Victoria. That's something you tell little kids and they think they're really
special. But I'm a literal autistic person, so it's just, that was something that was a part of
me. And so as I grew a little bit older, you know, I held tight to that. But I also understood
that my mother, who was an orphan and raised by a couple of different foster families, had
told me that she was Sicilian. It would come to pass that neither one of them were telling
the truth. But to my father's credit, he didn't know. So fast forward to adult life after my
parents thankfully divorced, I was raised, we were, it was an abusive household, it was a
very difficult household to live in. I changed my name when I was 22 to, in honor of my
mother, to give back what was taken from her, and that was her Sicilian culture. So I
changed my name to a Sicilian name, started singing opera, I found the Catholic religion. I

2

�thought these were all the things that I had to do to build out my inner self and give mom,
who was my hero or heroine, Shero, everything that was missing in her life. And so I did,
and she lived through it, loved it, and she loved when I cooked for her, she loved when I
sang for her. She loved everything about it until I got married. And then I married an
Italian-American woman. And while we were looking for places, venues to get married, we
decided that we were going to get married in Italy. But then some of the elder people in her
family couldn't make the trip, so we had to pivot.
So we selected my mother's hometown. So we went there in the year 2000 to look at
spaces, and I was in the town. I was like, “you know what? Let's drive by the town hall and
let's ask them what, you know, licenses and things that we have to get.” And so we did,
and while we're in there, I just had this instinct. I was like, “do you guys have birth records
here?” And the woman looked at me and she's like, “yes,” and I'm like, “well, can I pull the
birth record for my mother?” She asked for her name and the year that she was born. And
so I gave her the name and the birth year, and then she came back with a notebook like
this. It was indices to all the birth records. She said, “look through this, see if you can find
her name, and then let me know.” I found her name, gave it back to her, and then she
comes back and she's like, “This is weird. Your mother has three birth records.” And I
looked at the birth records, and one of them, I didn't know what I was looking for. It was the
first time I've ever seen a birth record before in my life, except for my own. And I'm looking
at it, I'm scanning, and I see this space that has white out. I'm like, I didn't even look to see
what the space was, so I looked at another record that was slightly different from the one
that I was holding in my hand. It was a different kind of, it was the same document but I
think it was from the state as opposed to the town. It was a state birth record, and that too
had white out in it. I'm like, I'm sitting there going, what the hell? I see my grandfather's
name, Jerome Barber, and I'm like, well, that doesn't look Sicilian. And then I looked at her
mother's name, and it was a French-Canadian name, which is what my mother said her
mother was, her biological mother. So I looked at the third record, and there weren't any
redactions. And I'm staring at this record, and I start reading all the spaces, and then I
noticed one of the spaces that had been redacted on the old one, at the previous one, said
race, and it said black. I looked at my wife, and I said black. And my wife's chin or my
fiance's chin was nailed to the floor. And I looked at the woman, the town clerk, and I said,
“they're black people in Castleton, in Vermont?” Because I'd never seen any people of
color at all, ever. And I'd been going up there my entire life, and she became very
uncomfortable, the woman. And then I look, I looked again at the first birth record, and the
space next to legitimate was whited out. And I'm sitting there, I didn't know how to process
the legitimacy at that point. I didn't, I just didn't know what that really meant from a legal
standpoint.
So I stepped out of that building, and, multiple explosions were going off in my head. I'm
sitting there going, maybe these people think you know, maybe Sicilians are a little bit
darker and they're classified as black. And that's when that journey began. It's just like
discerning whether or not… my mother could be black. And rather than go to her, like
probably most people would do, I decided that I had to like, circumnavigate her and gather
all the information, all the intel that I could possibly get so I can understand the perspective
that she's working from if she were lying. Because if she was lying to me, it was a really
big lie, and there was a reason for it. And I didn't want to pin her to the wall because I, she
didn't deserve to be pinned to a wall by me. Because it might be the case that the world
outside had already pinned her to the wall. An inescapable wall.
From the year 2000 to the year 2017, I scraped every barrel that I could. I… slithered
through Jim Crow's snake pits. And I just, the things that I discovered were… drastic in

3

�every regard. Not only is Vermont 99.9% white, according to the census reports, they had
everything on a smaller scale that the Deep South had. And I lived in the Deep South. So I
lived in Alabama, I lived in North Carolina. So I do have some perspective there, firsthand
perspective. And as I went through all of my surges, I mean, I'm obsessed about this stuff.
So I had to build out all kinds of different cases on how to approach a problem that didn't
want to be solved. Because the state of Vermont does not want to even discuss this.
They've committed so many different offenses that it pains me to even have this
conversation. The amount of offenses. But there's extreme archival silence, cover-ups.
They had laws in the books that allowed for segregation. When they tout that they were
the first state to abolish enslavement, that really wasn't the case at all. They had a partial
abolishment of enslavement and they looked the other way at other people who were
enslavers. I mean, I've recorded people who were enslaved all the way up through 1850 in
the census reports, but can't find anything in terms of manumission records in the
archives. Building data, the amount of imprisonment. There were for the limited amount of
black people that were in the state historically. Every single one of my black relatives were
incarcerated for- it could be justifiable. Maybe some of them were- you crossed the line a
little too much when you were driving the car, so we're gonna give you a ticket, kind of a
thing.
My family, come to find out, my mother's uncle was burned alive in his house, most likely
by white supremacists. He was married to a white woman, and she was gone, probably
visiting her family, and the house went up in flames with him in it. My grandfather's- my
mother's aunt, one of her aunts, was shot through the chest by her white employer in a
public space, and she was married to a white man, and my grandfather was sent to prison
for having children with my grandmother, and that's [when] my mother recalls…when her
parents disappeared. The KKK showed up at their house with torches and threw the
torches at the house and tried to burn them alive in the house. And then my grandfather
wound up being murdered after he was released from prison. So my mother and her
brother, that's why they weren't raised by their family. And now at the same time, that was
in 1956 when that happened.
My mother was born in 1943, her brother was born in 1944. It would come to pass in 2018
that I received a genetic match. Well, my mother received a genetic match for her first
cousin on her father's side. Now, that was an impossibility in my world. I'd done all the
calculus there. My mother had 16 aunts and uncles. Well, 15 excluding her father. None of
them had children that were registered in live births. So it was only my grandfather who
had kids. And come to find out, my mother's aunt was raped by a white man. She became
pregnant and she moved down to a woman's home here in New York City to have the
baby and gave it up for adoption immediately to a family from Harlem. And that family
never told their adopted daughter that she was adopted. She found out when she was 70
years old and was going through her parents' effects, and she saw her adoption papers,
and she started asking questions, and she discovered the truth, and that was another brick
in this god-awful wall that I'd been building. So, yeah, when you take a look at everything
that was occurring around Vermont, now that they were on the border of Whitehall,
Washington County (New York). All the things that were ruminating around there left it very
ripe for these unconscionable acts to occur. Between eugenics, the KKK, and the laws that
enabled for certain things to happen, it got ugly. Mom, in 1950, she and her brother and
her family were two of 350 black people enumerated in the 1950s census. So [out of] close
to 400,000 people, 350 were black.
SC [00:17:51] In the state?

4

�JN [00:17:52] In the state of Vermont. Imagine all the things that could happen at that
point. When mom turned 12, she was getting ready to enter high school. And apparently
the town fathers, a term I'd never heard of until it was explained to me, got together. They
had thrown she and her brother out of one school in the town because they didn't want
racial mixing, when they were in elementary school. And they entered a school that was
literally south of the tracks, and it was called the South School. At that point I think it was
K-8. And they were getting ready to enter high school, and the town fathers acted again,
and this time they threw them out of state. That's when my uncle, a man whom I never
met, was shipped off to Boys Town in Omaha, Nebraska. He was sent in a colored-only
car. He was always listed as Negro or Black. And I was able to get some of his files. As I
read through the files, and all the places that he had been sent to after Boys Town, another
Catholic orphanage in Burlington, Vermont, and then an industrial school in Vermont. I
realized that all of these places had a history of severe sexual abuse. And I began writing
my manuscript. My mother, before she passed away, she asked that I write her story for
her and the family's story. And I was like, mom, I don't know how to write and I can write a
song. I don't know. I'm gonna write a book. But yeah, we're close to the finish line on that
one, mom.
But anyway, as I was reading through the files, there's so much subtext there, and I'm not
good with subtext at all. But as I'm reading through this, the one common theme was he
runs away a lot. He's ashamed of who he is because of the color of his skin, and he steals.
He acts out, he lashes out. I gave it to a friend of mine who is a social worker, and they
asked if I knew if he had been sexually abused. And I said, that's what I was thinking as I
was reading through this, that this guy, this kid that's like acting out. This woman reaches
out to me, and she apparently was married to him. She's the only person that he had
married, and she broke it all down for me that he had been sexually abused in all of those
places, and he'd been acting out his whole adult life, became addicted to drugs, alcohol,
was very violent in the household to the kids and her, and she had to divorce him because
he was he was too violent. Then he wound up taking his life. And this is all because a
small town in Vermont couldn't deal with race. And that's what killed me.
And then mom…began opening up and talking about how she was sexually abused in her
foster homes, and beaten up by the kids because she was the the blankety blank blank
blank, think of every pejorative if you want to. And she didn't- she lied because she didn't
want me to be subjected to that. And I told her, Ma, I live in New Jersey. Who the hell's
gonna know this stuff? My brother had an afro, so okay, there was a shot there, but I didn't
have an afro. There was no way I could, everybody thought I was Mexican, I was the
Mexican kid. Which actually I love that because I have a ton of genetic matches from
Mexico, that's enslavement induced for sure. So that's kind of a nutshell.
JN [00:22:59] It's a lot to work through.
SC [00:23:00] How do you feel- you feel okay after talking about it?
JN [00:23:05] It’’s a little tough but you gotta muscle through. It's tough for me to organize
my thoughts. So I know I'm all over the place out there.
SC [00:23:23] So that's a lot of heaviness. Can I ask a follow up? How was the relationship
between your mother and her brother with all of those artificial barriers put between them
all that forced movement? How did they reflect on that?

5

�JN [00:23:41] Well, as far as I know, in our adult life, I don't think she ever saw him. She
had to, from what I could tell in the files, she was his guardian when he was 17 years old.
He'd been thrown out of every school, and he was thrown out of the industrial school. Now,
this industrial school, it's called Weeks, had some really bad stuff. They were shut down
because really bad stuff happened there too. I don't know, I think mom told me that he
stole the rent money from their house. And that was, that was it. She said, you can't come
back. And I don't know if they ever spoke again. I know that I never met him. All the times
that we come up, she'd always go up and want to see her mother, who was her foster
mother, but that was her mother, who was- I never gave her the credit. You know, when I
started working through all of this, my biggest regret in my life, anything that I've ever said
to anybody…is this thing that I said to my mother when her mother passed away in July of
1994. She wanted me to come up to the funeral, and I said I wouldn't because she wasn't
really her mother. And that was right at the time that I just changed my name, and I was
really just embracing things, and for me to have said something so mean in that moment
and not really understanding who this person was to my mother.
Their foster family was extraordinarily poor. I mean, the house scared me every time I went
in because it was just really dilapidated. There were always, always kids in there. And
don't know whose kids they were sometimes. She was always looking after kids. And a lot
of them were local kids and a lot of them were her biological grandkids and she was super
sweet, she was always so damn nice, but she was also- you didn't want to mess with this
lady. I mean, she had big meaty arms, she had broad shoulders, and she chain smoked
palm all filterless cigarettes, and you didn't want to get in her way, but she had the biggest
heart that you'd ever seen on an individual. You could tell that she just loved everybody
that was in her circle. I knew that from the very get-go, but there was just some really
strange energy that hit me every time I went inside that house. It would come to pass that
some of her, one or two of her husbands had abused my mother physically, sexually. I
don't know to what extent, I didn't ask mom. She just gave me that little bit of stuff, and
then my uncle's ex-wife actually brought it up in a conversation. So I was like, oh, this must
be true. You know, she's like, “yeah, your mother used to allow the stepfather to touch her
so we wouldn't get near her brother" kind of thing. I was like, wow, that's just wow. I don't
even know what that's like. I mean, I can't even imagine what that's like. And I can't have
those conversations, that's the sad part, I can't have those conversations with my cousins
who were the foster kids, my mother's foster sister's kids. You can't have that conversation
with them. So these are things that can't be addressed, and all of those people have
ostracized me anyway. They found out that I was writing a book and they're like, oh God,
we're hiding.
They wouldn't even go to my mother's funeral…which was sad. She passed away during
the pandemic, but not because of pandemic reasons. And that was tough because shethat was just at the end of my research two years prior to that. This is a great story. Let me
rewind it, 2012. Twenty twelve, I was working as a server and a union rep in Rockefeller
Center, a restaurant server and a union rep. And I was just freaking out because I just
couldn't figure out if my mother was Sicilian or she was black still. Because I had found
enough evidence that in Whitehall there was a family with the same last name, Barber, and
they were Sicilian, and I traced them to Ellis Island. I had their actual birth surnames were
Barbera from outside of Palermo, I can't remember the name of the town. So that was
always in the mix. I'm like, well, there's this Barber family, but living in mom's hometown
were black Barbers. I just didn't want to accept it because I couldn't find photos of
anybody. And I couldn't believe that the man looking back at me in the mirror was a black
man. I just couldn't believe that. But there was my brother's hair, so that was an issue.

6

�So this one guy who I was very friendly with, I was always talking to him because he's
married to a black woman, and he kind of understood the struggles, and he finally said,
you know what? You might think this is an idiotic thing, but my wife and I, we go and see a
psychic medium, and I went, “psychic medium?” I never even thought about that. And he's
like, “well, what do you think of psychics?” And I was like, well, I don't know. I've never met
one, but I know that I dream things and like the predictive things, the next day that very
thing will happen. It's just silly things like people hadn't seen in like 10 years, and then
they're there the very next day, and I'm like, “How did that happen?” So it's like having
foresight or 360 degree vision, almost. And that's happened to me many times throughout
my life, and he's like, “Listen. You go, he doesn't cost a lot of money right now, but I
guarantee you he's gonna be really, really big. And if you don't like it, I'll pay for it.” I said,
“alright, well, I got nothing to lose, right?” So this is 2012. I sit down with a guy, great guy,
he starts telling me all kinds of stuff that blew me out of my seat. I mean, I was hanging
from the rafters, all this stuff. I was like, how is he doing this? I'm looking for an earpiece,
I'm looking for a seat. Not everybody had cell phones at that point, so he didn't have a cell
phone in front of him. We were just sitting in a room, there wasn't a computer, so the only
way he could have known these things is if he had an earpiece. I made the appointment, it
was about two weeks out. I gave him my first name, which at that point was Rosario.
Rosario, which is still my second middle name. I couldn't quite delete all of the Sicilian out
of me. I called from the work phone and made the appointment. So there wasn't a way that
he could research me.
So he starts spouting off things about my wife's family that there's no way, no way anybody
could have ever known these things. And I was like, this guy's good. I don't know how the
hell he knows that. There's just no way. And then he goes, “there's this guy that keeps on
coming in and out. He tells me his name is Jer.. Jer.. Jeremy?” And I went, you would think
that I would need a diaper, let's put it that way. That's the look I had on my face. And I was
like, Jerome? And he's like, Yeah, Jerome, who is that? And I said, Well, that's who I'm
here to talk about. And then he starts spouting off all of this stuff, talking about my mother,
it's not what he wanted. There were people in power who didn't want him there, they didn't
want his family there, they didn't, you know, it's not- it wasn't a good situation for anybody.
And then he mentioned, he goes, “there's a problem with your mother's birth certificate.
Did you ever get that fixed?” And I went, oh my God, how is he…and then the medium
says, I don't know, I don't know what he means by that, but take it for whatever it's worth
and I'm just sitting there going “...Whoops”.
JN [00:33:47] And so I said, listen, “are they black?” And he puts his hands over his eyes
and he's like, you know, they don't want to show me. And I'm like, yeah, okay, this is this is
where I'm gonna get him. And he goes, “they're like covered in scarves and hats and big
long coats. Did they come from someplace cold?” I just sat there and I'm like, he's fishing.
And I go, yeah, they came from Vermont. He goes, okay, Vermont, okay, okay. And he's
like, “yeah, you know what? This side of the family, they're black, but your mother's
mother's side isn't.” And I was like, okay, is that right? And I said, “is there a picture of it?”
And he said, “is there a picture of him?” He goes, “I feel like there's a picture of him or
them or him. It's a picture, a painting or a photo.” He goes, yeah, “but you'd have to
contact an historical society or something.” I said, “where?” And he's like, “where?” He
said, “it's in or near Stowe, like the town next to Stowe, maybe.” And I sat there, man. I'm
like, Stowe is 100 miles from Castleton, Vermont. I can't imagine. Why would anybody
have a photo of a black guy or a painting of a black guy hanging on their wall? So we
closed up shop. I walked out believing that this guy had a real gift. Now I had to find the
painting.

7

�So I called all the historical societies. I had one person laugh at me and just said, “I'm
sorry. We don't know.” And then I had two others just hang up the phone. And it was then
that I realized that I'm in a real uphill battle in terms of getting information about black
people in the state. I already knew there was silence, but I didn't realize that there was
gonna be this kind of coldness towards me. Now we're gonna fast forward from 2012 to
2017, January of 2017. It's about 3:30 in the morning. And I had this dream. I'm asleep,
have this dream. This voice gets into my ear and starts saying, “mugshots, mugshots, mug
shots.” It starts getting louder and louder until he's screaming in my ear. And I wake up
and I'm like, mugshots. So I go over to my computer and I reach out to a friend of mine
who lives in Vermont who is a researcher. Her name is Elise Guyette. She wrote a
beautiful book about the black history of Vermont. And she'd been coaching me and
guiding me a little bit on what to look for in the records. And I sent her an email and I said,
you know, I just had a dream about mugshots. Is there a possibility that there might be
mugshots existing from I don't know, I don't know who this was talking to me, but you
know, from 1940s, 1950s, maybe even before then.
One day later, she sends me an email. It's got a picture of my grandfather– a
mugshot–and it was located in the town next to Stowe in an historical repository. Wow. And
that's when- I'm getting goosebumps again. Every time I tell this story, it's just
goosebumps. That's when I just knew. Alright, my grandfather came to visit me in my
sleep. This psychic knows what he's doing. And I'm glad I didn't have the immediate
information. I'm glad that the psychic couldn't tell me right off the bat, go to the archives in
Middlesex, there'll be a mugshot. Because I would have missed so much other stuff that I
had found. Because I would have stopped right there. All I wanted was that. That was
going to be all the proof that I needed. Was that for my journey? Was it possible that my
mother was actually black and I'm black, and it wasn't, you know, some latent ancestor out
in the orbit near Neptune, from like 400 years ago. Because this is 180 degrees opposite
of who I thought her family was.
With this discovery, I had to go to mom. That was the order of business. So we drove up,
sat her down in a church, in the church where her father's funeral was. That was the last
time she had seen her brother, was in this church. Come to find out my grandfather had
converted to Catholicism a year before his murder.
SC [00:38:59] This grandfather?
JN [00:39:00] Yeah. Which is really bizarre.
JN [00:39:08] So I sat mom down and I started to break a little bit and we got it we got it on
video and she's mid-stages Alzheimer's at this point so I was like, I don't know how much
of this is gonna stick but she needs to know everything that I've I've discovered about her
father and her parents and why she wasn't raised- I mean imagine being going through
everything that I know that she went through and knowing in the back of your mind it was
probably because of what your race was but also being raised to believe that you weren't
loved by anybody. That you were just trash that was disposed of by the side of the road,
that was what she went through and her brother went through and so many hundreds of
thousands of others, well millions of others across the world probably experience
something similar to that.
So I felt, after the life that my mother had led with my father… her second husband was an
extraordinary man but we would discover after he passed away from alcoholism that he

8

�was having an affair, and that crushed my mother. So I was just like this lady just she's
been through everything there is there anything that I can do to to lift her up and this was
this was the best that I could do we sat her down in the church and I had one two three
three different modes of this photo to show to her and I wanted to reintroduce her to her
father and at that point I didn't know that she had any memories of him at all. So I
photoshopped one that took the pad, the mugshot pad off from around his neck, so it was
just him and in his suit. I was like, all right, that's how I'm gonna introduce him. And that
didn't really elicit a response. So I was like, you know what? I'm gonna show her the
mugshot. Maybe, I'll make a connection there. And I pulled out the mug shut and she looks
at it and she holds it out like this. And then she goes, “oh my God, is that…” and I said, I
just nodded my head, and then she started crying, and she pulled him into her chest and
started hugging the photo and she's crying. And I'm sitting there, I thought I was helpless.
So I just sat down next to her in the pew and I said, you know, we can cry together. And
we just sat there. That opened up some conversations which continued up until her
passing in 2020. She was able to expunge the ills that had haunted her her whole life.
I've been doing some consulting work for a gentleman, a philanthropist in Rutland,
Vermont, the city closest to her hometown of Castleton. It was for a freeze, a marble or a
granite freeze of the Massachusetts 54th Regiment Civil War soldiers, the colored unit that
was famous, but I think all of the colored troops ought to receive the same due. I was
doing some consulting work on how they should word things on their plaque that they were
going to affix to the freeze. And they wanted me to come up for the unveiling and speak. I
said, Yeah, sure, no, no problem. And then I started thinking about it, “I wonder if mom
would do it?” At this point we had moved her into assisted living and she had caretakers
around the clock. I reached out to the caretaker and I said, “how would you feel about
bringing mom over to this? I'm supposed to speak, but I'm in New York City, I'm gummed
up with work, and I just can't do it. Would you feel comfortable bringing mom in?” And she
said, “yeah, absolutely. I think she would, she said she would love to do it. She can't stop
talking about this and what you've done.” That made me really proud. And then she took
her, and my mother got up in front of everybody and outed herself as a black woman and
said, “these are my relatives on the wall.” She got on the front page of the paper, she got
in the news, and I was like, I was over the moon. I was like, she did this. Or we did this
together, but she did it. She conquered everything that had been bothering her.
Now we don't know what happened to her mother. Well, I know what happened. She
disappeared on the other side of the state. She'd been threatened several times, I guess,
not to have any contact with the kids. And she had children from another marriage. She
disappeared on the other side of the state. She lived until, I think she passed away in
1995. Not once did she try to contact my mother or anybody else. Whereas my
grandfather was murdered in 1965 before I was born. Yeah, so it was just like, why- who
doesn't contact their children? But again, a world of some sort of fear and loathing that she
probably combated herself. I'll never know that story, even though I have spoken with and
met a couple of mom's half-brothers and sisters, and they have no recollection of what
happened. They too were sent into foster homes for a while, and then when her mother,
when their mother remarried, she collected them. But she never went back for my mother
and her brother.
Yeah, it's just the hate that lives within us. That serves to divide us, it just doesn't make
any sense to me. As a little kid, the town that I was raised in was highly diverse. It was
primarily Jewish, but you know, we lived directly across the street from a conservative
temple. We lived in apartments, and each section was a section of four apartments. And
those four apartments, three of them, the women who lived their names were Rose. My

9

�mother was one of them. I always say I was raised by the three Roses. The other two
Roses were Holocaust survivors. And they didn't like talking about it that much, but every
once in a while things would come out. It's kind of like that became a part of me. It was this
understanding of the hatefulness of humans and the causality of things in this world.
It was about that time that our school, my elementary school had a unit on Harriet Tubman
and the Underground Railroad. That became a huge thing with me. It resonated with me in
the deepest of ways. Come to find out, I guess my ancestors would have been talking to
me since day one. I mean, even the name of my elementary school, Lafayette, was my
great-grandfather's name. All of this stuff was always around me, these little things. It's
funny when I was sitting with another psychic, she stopped and she said, “were you ever in
a car accident that you should have died in?” And I just looked at her and I said, “uhh…”
and she goes, “you should have died that day.” And she's pointing it, pointing at my
midsection. The crash was right there, between you and the steering wheel, and I went,
“Okay,” and she and she said, your grandfather threw himself in between you and the
steering wheel. And that's when I just said, You're 100% correct. It was the New Jersey
turnpike. Got hit on by a hit 18-wheeler and smashed into the guardrails. And if you looked
at my car, I had to be, they had to cut me out. I didn't have a scratch on me. Nobody could
believe it. The car was just absolutely destroyed, and not one scratch on me. And the very
the very next day, the very next day, I started work in a new job in Northern Virginia
because I was going to school and so I was working in a restaurant, started this new job,
and my very first customer sitting waiting for me to come and say hello was a Catholic
priest by the name of Jerome. I was like, whoa, because at that point I knew my
grandfather's name was Jerome. But I always thought Jerome was Sicilian. I didn't know
what his last name was at that point. So even then I was like, wow, that's really
coincidental.
But when I get this third layer, this extra layer added on to it, you know, you think, wow,
that's just that's really intense for me. I had to- any means necessary to pull the truth to
extract the truth. I used psychics, and whenever I had triangulation of information, I knew
that it was probably accurate information that was coming through. I had to throw things
away because I felt like I gave too much in the moment. When you start giving a lot of
information, then people can start doing whatever they want with it. Doesn't make them a
psychic, it just makes them intuitive about the things that you're saying. But when you
start- when you have four or five different psychics telling you the same thing, you have to
listen. You really have to listen. Particularly if they don't have access to you in online
forums and things like that.
Now I do some consulting work for the state of Vermont in trying to rectify the books on
history because I think it's imperative. Now there is, bringing this to New York State, there
is definite synergy between Vermont and New York State, all the way across from Clinton
County all the way down to Washington County. I mean you can gauge how our people
moved in and out. Some of them were indentured servants. My mother's aunts and one
uncle were indentured servants in New York State as children.
SC [00:52:25] In what era, what decade? When- multiple decades?
JN [00:52:30] It was the early twentieth century. Another one was in the mid-19th century.
This is one that's potentially quite meaningful in, I hate to say it, dispelling the myth of the
Underground Railroad actually being in Vermont. There's been a lot of work done on the
Underground Railroad in Vermont where everybody has a story of underground railroad
stations being in Vermont. It makes for great storytelling, and I hope that it winds up being

10

�true. But I know of at least one [town] might not be the case, and that's in Fairhaven, which
is the town that my mother was actually raised in, which is in between Castleton, Poulteny,
and Whitehall. And it was one of my mother's, well, three of my mother's family members,
were… the family was really poor, as was the case for pretty much all the black families.
They're really poor, so three of the kids were taken by the town overseer, and one fellow
who is listed as an underground railroad station agent, well, his house, the Ellis household,
took them, agreed to be their guardian for a year, or at least one year, and was given, I
believe, $400 per child. And one of them was immediately sold, or sent to indentured
servitude in Washington County, New York. So knowing how Vermonters operate, I think
maybe the fact that the guy had three black children that he was guardian for may have
somehow grown into him being an underground railroad agent. I haven't seen any
evidence otherwise.
There's another farmhouse that straddles the New York State border, and it's called the
West Cot Farm. So it's West Haven and Whitehall. That purportedly there were tunnels
underneath and all the enslaved people had carved their names in. I'm like, they didn't
know how to write. What are they gonna carve in there? I've been trying to get archeology
students in there to use technology to see if there's anything in maybe the sub-basements
or tunnels, and if we could, we could probably get somebody in there to see if those
rumors are true. But nobody's been able to do it yet. There's another cemetery that's
storied to be a black cemetery. We did get ground penetrating equipment in there and
were able to ascertain that there were I think 25 sets of remains underground, but we
haven't been able to get into them to get samples and analyze who they are. I mean you
could easily tell if you know by a genetic sample if somebody is of European background
100% or African, European, Native American, so on and so forth. So I think that's a pet
project of mine that I would really like to be able to to see through is get some sort of
fundamental understanding of who these unnamed individuals are.
SC [00:56:59] And that's in Vermont the cemetery, or that's on that border?
JN [00:57:02] No, that's in Vermont. That's around Lake Bomoseen. It's called Briggs
Cemetery.
SC [00:57:08] Wow. And that's known as a person of color cemetery?
JN [00:57:16] Two brothers side by side, white guys named Briggs owned a whole lot of
property, and that was their property. There are I think 25 marked gravestones there, and
then there are 25 unmarked. Now the state owns that property, so you'd have to go
through the state now to petition to get in there. I think it's easier than saying, hey, I need
to exhume my grandfather, for example, whom I wouldn't need to, it would be my
great-grandmother, would be somebody I'd want to exhume. Because when you exhume
in the state of Vermont, you have to get the clearance from every living family member, no
matter where they live, and get them to sign off on it. I don't know if I could do that or not.
Well, I don't even know how many people there living and what their religious beliefs might
be when it comes to that. I mean, no barriers. Let's get that sucker up, let's pop off a piece
of bone, put them back in, analyze it. A friend of mine is the owner of a forensic crime lab,
one of- the biggest in the United States. He's happy to do the work. So I've- I have the
pipeline in place. So it's a matter of getting investment into the state of Vermont to get that
done. And I would love to be the one who digs it up. I mean, sweat equity, I would love
that.

11

�New York State comes into play for a lot of us. Because number one, their genetic
matches, they're just profound, not a profound amount. There I have two large clusters
that speak to New York State connections, but those two large clusters also lead back to
Virginia. But when you look at my timeline, the timeline in Vermont begins in 1850. That's
when documentation surfaces in the state for most free people of color. So our names
aren't listed, we're just checked off. So there are at least one, two, three. There are three
family lines whose documentation points into New York State out of Castleton, in terms of
a place of birth. But there's a big “but.” When you start looking at 1850 from that timeline,
you're looking at the drafting and passing of the Fugitive Slave Act.
So the smart ones will put down the free states. I'm from Vermont. I'm from New York.
Somebody helped them a long way. I mean, there was the Underground Railroad. We all
know, we accept that to be true. And they were, they were educated on the way as to what
to say. So you can't find- when you can't find records, but your genetics tell you some
other things, then you kind of have to figure out how to aggregate, separate, and organize
all of these things into something that makes sense. And for black and brown families, this
is the impossibility, particularly in the Northeast, where we weren't less- I mean we were
far less, and we were sporadically placed around the states, and there was severe archival
silence on all of these ancestors. Vermont didn't become a state until 1791. Yeah, they
didn't start reporting live births until I think it was 1810 or 1820, and then they didn't even
have to report it to the state until I think 1860 when it became mandated. So good luck
finding records. It's very, very difficult to do.
Now, to kind of amplify that a little bit, in 2017 when I discovered my grandfather's
mugshot, I also learned through genetic testing and a whole lot of work that my father was
illegitimate. It took me 24 hours to rebuild my father's family tree on the paternal line all the
way back to England 1640. I'm on year 25 on my mother's side. I can't get beyond 1850
out of the state of Vermont. That's how difficult it is for us. To figure out who the hell we are
and where we came from. Names aren't a thing. Names only last so long. So, you know, if
you're traded in between masters, your names might have changed too. When you were
free or emancipated or ran away, you might have started using a different name. You might
not have had a surname. There are all kinds of ifs, buts, ands. You just follow whatever
trail you possibly can.
There are Jacksons all over the place, and that comprises a good portion of my family. But
there's so many in the town of Castleton alone, there are three separate Jackson lines.
This Jackson, the Jackson line that I can document for myself may be the line of Jacksons
that were emanating out of Stillwater (New York), but go back into Virginia. But it might be
the case that you know there were illegitimate births in my mother's family line that just
aren't documented, and I can't figure out who they are just because of the vagaries of
names and how fluid those things are. We have genetic matches who made it into
Canada, but I can backtrace them into Kentucky. I think Kentucky is as far back as I got, or
maybe it was Texas. But without anything to anchor them to or phase them to, you can't
make sense of them. You just know that's a place I gotta look. Do the numbers line up? I
mean, anything that happened to my family in terms of genetic matches, it's gonna happen
prior to 1850. And really, when I say 1850, it's really about 1825 because those people
appearing in 1850 were actually born in 1825. So I would need to look for an 1825 number
somewhere. So it just becomes calculus without an equation to work with. So you're
spitballing, you're constantly spitballing. Unless you can find a journal or something that
somebody, you know, spoke to, like the book that I showed you that pointed to Louisiana.
SC [01:05:46] Is that Kenneth Perry’s?

12

�JN [01:05:48] No, that's not Perry's. That's Tranquility [Harold P. Sheldon] with the
illustration.
SC [01:05:54] That looks like an old book.
JN [01:05:55] It is.
SC [01:05:57] And how did you get to that book?
JN [01:06:00] That's a darn good question. How did I get to that book? I honestly don't
know. My mother was- when she lived with her foster family, she lived on a place called
Sheldon Road in Fairhaven (Vermont). It was in the backwoods of Fairhaven. Well come to
find out, that's where this fella lived. So the road was their family's road.
SC [01:06:29] Oh wow.
JN [01:06:31] And as I kept on digging on that, I discovered that he'd written three books.
And they're hunting books, and I'm just like, hunting? I don't- I've never held a gun in my
hands. Why would I want these books? But I was just like- I read a caption, I was like, oh, I
like the way this guy puts language together, he puts his words together, it's very, very,
consumable. And so I was like, alright, I'll buy them. And I bought the books. Then I
opened up the table of contents, and then I started thumbing through, and I saw the
illustration. I'm like, oh, that's a man, that's an illustration of a black guy. Where does this
take place? And like Tranquility is a, it's a fictionalized name for the town where mom lived,
Fairhaven.
SC [01:07:22] In Vermont?
JN [01:07:23] In Vermont.
JN [01:07:26] And then I read the chapter, and he describes perfectly where my
great-great-grandfather had lived. To the T, exactly where he lived. I mean, in the exact
spot that I know that he lived. So I knew he was talking about my great-great-grandfather.
He just changed the last name from Barber to Jackson, but he kept his first name Congo.
So the Jacksons were the other part of my family, the Barbers, the Hunters, the Hawkins.
And the funny thing is, in this town, every surname that a black family has, a white one
appears in this family, in the town. So my father's mother is white Barber, my mother's
father is black Barber, both from the same exact town. But there's no enslavement
heritage there to explore. It's just purely “coincidental.”
SC [01:08:23] Yeah, that's interesting because I saw that a lot in the Washington County
Free Black census records. Surnames like Boston or De Ritter appeared and had white
equivalents. Very Dutch. So I wasn't sure if those meant that they were white tenant
farmers that enslaved black people and that's why they took the surname or what?
JN [01:08:45] Whenever you see a Dutch surname, you could probably guess that that
was their enslavers name. And you could probably go right into the Dutch Reformed
Church records and find something there. I don't have any of those Dutch surnames, but
my cousins do. I have one cousin who's a Wicks, guarantee you that was Wicks. And I
have- I do actually have matches from the Albany area with Dutch surnames who are
black. But I think I'm related to them through the Jacksons because they all have the same

13

�Jackson line in there with each other. My problem is I can't get my Jackson line out of
Vermont, so I don't know where to tether that Jackson line to or whether I have multiples.
Like my cousins out of Castleton, whom I've met, we had a black to Vermont reunion. I
called it “Black to Vermont.”
SC [01:09:50] When was that?
JN [01:09:51] That was in 2018 before my mother passed away. And it was absolutely
fantastic. I learned who I was. These people were so much more like me than any of my
father's family. Like I knew my piece of my puzzle, where to put it, was when I was
standing with them. And they were just so loving and so jubilant and joyous, and they just
like there no questions, no consternation. I thought I'd get some stink eye from some of
them. No, you know, who is this guy? What's he looking for? You know, and it was none of
that. It was just everybody was silly, it's just like wide open. And they were all born and
raised in Saratoga (Springs, NY), and not one of them had ever been to Castleton. But
they all knew that they came from Castleton at some point.
SC [01:10:41] Those are Jacksons?
JN [01:10:43] Yeah, they're all from the Jacksons family.
SC [01:10:46] And do you go back to Saratoga often or that area orJN [01:10:50] They're a little dodgy. Okay. I have because of politics, two cousins in
Vermont no longer speak to me. One of them was the person that I thought was kind of
like a brother figure and we stayed with. Not anymore. No blow up, no nothing. It was just
yeah, I can't have you guys stay with me anymore. It was like, wow really? Because of
politics?
SC [01:11:18] Politics? That's really upsetting.
JN [01:11:22] It was very upsetting. And my daughters even more so because they
actually loved it and I love them too. I mean there was just no warning sign or anything. It
was just they can't have you anymore. Alright. And my father's family, who live in the same
town, they all divorced me about- they divorced me when I discovered that my father was
illegitimate. Like that's what they did. Instead of like, how'd you discover this or that you're
a liar, your spout no lie…and [they] just got rid of me, refused to talk to me. My aunt, my
favorite person in the family, just decided that I wasn't good enough to speak to anymore.
Really? That's how you handle that. Okay, so I had- there wasn't anybody to visit anymore,
so we don't go up there any longer. And it stinks because we love the area and we loved
the people. I have animosity not at the individuals, but the lack of conversation. That's
where the animus is. Nobody wanted to speak about it. It just made their decision that,
hey, these guys are disposable too.This guy's too much trouble, he talks too much truth.
SC [01:12:59] So why do you think that it pains them? Were they not willing to
acknowledge their black ancestry or just the fact thatJN [01:13:06] My cousin did. He was, when I found this, he was super excited. But he
didn't have the best relationship with his father. But he gave me full permission to write the
book and use his father's name. I was like, listen, I can change the name. I can make this
a work of fiction. And he said no, “I think it's important enough that everybody knows what
happened and uses the name.” So I thought- and even the last time I went to visit him was

14

�when I was lecturing at Castleton University, that was 2023. He pulled out a bunch of
photos that he had found of the school that they attended, the elementary school that they
attended, and gave them to me, and we were just hanging out, yucking it up. And then I
knew the jig was up when he dropped me off for the train to go back to New York and he
started taking selfies with me. I was like, wait a minute, this guy's never posed for a photo
with me in my life. This is the last time I'm gonna see this guy. And it was.
SC [01:14:17] Wow, so if you think he made that decision–you don't have to answer that
but I'm just interested–why did he decide to do that?
JN [01:14:24] The politics.
SC [01:14:27] Politics like American politics. Really? That's so bad. It's so bad that it's like
that.
JN [01:14:35] His mother told me and she's on that side too and she's a lovely woman and
I'm so grateful for her presence in my life because she's the one that told me what she did
and I know those were painful things for her to tell me. But it's like- why would you decide
to not love somebody because they disagree with you politically?
Speaker 4 [01:15:04] Mm-hmm.
JN [01:15:06] To a degree I can understand it. We're all kind of conditioned, depending on
the bubble that you're in. You only see that bubble, you only hear that bubble, you only
speak to that bubble. I do understand that. I don't understand our inability to get outside of
those bubbles and kind of get a more holistic view of the world at large and the root
causes for things that happen as well. So they’re, you know, there are people that don't
want to do the work. Or, you know, they're working too hard and they can't invest
themselves, so they only get a five-minute sound bite of something and they and they run
with it. These things all happen. I don't know how to cure that. I don't think it can be cured.
But it saddens me when it, you know, breaks people apart.
SC [01:16:11] We talked a lot about very specific and personal stories that you shared
which are thorny, complex, heavy, joyous, all of those things simultaneously, which you've
worked really hard to uncover, which is incredible. Can you talk about what that work
process means to you?
JN [01:16:39] I think that everyone who is alive and able to genetically test and involve
themselves in their genealogies needs to do it. Not ought to, but needs to. For these
reasons and these reasons only. We're not taught history the way it happened. We're
taught history the way that a publisher wants us to consume it. The only way we can learn
about real history is to make it personal. I didn't know anything about black history until I
discovered I was black. I thought I knew the basics, George Carver “the peanut man,”
Martin Luther King, enslavement, Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass. That was the
greatest hits. That's pretty much all you learn barring being a major in black history in
college. When it applies to you, or an individual like myself, it just changed everything
about who I thought I was and turned me into who I was supposed to be.
Now, I don't expect you or anybody else who's listening to this to understand it, but part of
being on the autistic spectrum for me is my inability to have emotional connections, and I
kind of live in a duality where there isn't interconnectivity. It’s kind of like wearing a fishbowl
around my head that doesn’t allow me to be in the present moment with you. Or with the

15

�world at large. It’s like I’m in my own chamber no matter where it is that I walk, and so I
understand that genealogy feeds my desire to want to be a part of this world that I can't
find a way to connect with. And so this is why this work was so meaningful to me, is
because it kind of plugged me into the world around me. But I still have to unplug it to
recharge. So I know that I'm never a permanent part of this structure, this world. My mind
isn't present when I'm here. Even as I'm speaking now, I'm thinking of about a thousand
different things in my head. It's just- there isn't presence for me. And that's just a very
difficult thing for me. Living with people I never knew in my head is much easier than living
with people who are in front of me. Because I get to speak, think, and hear them on my
terms. And whether or not they come to me in dreams or while I'm standing talking to you,
this is what it is for me. I think it's just really important for people to appreciate how we got
here. And we got here on the shoulders of every direct ancestor, biological ancestor before
us. That's the bare calculus, the raw calculus of humankind. The biology. It took other
people to nurture us, but the only reason why we're standing here with our own two feet,
it's simple. We need to figure out a way to understand and honor all of those that came
before us. Whether it's just a quick thing of gratitude, even if it was an enslaver, even if it
was under the worst of circumstances, there's no other way we would have gotten here.
You remove one person out of that family tree of your direct ancestry, we disappear.
So, in a sense, there's this energy about us that props us up, and we need to be cognizant
of that and breathe it back out into eternity and be grateful for what we have on a basic
level. And then we dig and we learn, and it becomes a part of us, in as much as it can be a
part of us. It takes a lot of time. I mean, it takes a lot of time and a lot of energy, and to try
and understand basic principles of genealogy, it's simple-ish, but to understand the genetic
components, it gets a little more difficult, and then when you are playing around with
genetic software like genetic mapping and things like that, that's a whole different level of
understanding. But it's helpful. So I think it's just well worth it.
I mean, to understand that- at least my perspective is I'm not trying to shame people. I
have a lot of really bitter emotions with regards to my family, but I'm not blaming anybody
for it. I can't blame anybody for it. But if you try and take that away from me by erasing it,
then I can blame it. Erasure, First Amendment principles, this whole thing, this whole
politicization of DEI, it just is deeply disruptive and disturbing to me. First of all, there's no
such thing as DEI. There isn't a definition. I've sat on DEI panels for schools, and all we do
is talk about books. And it's not just black authors, it's Israeli authors, it's Asian authors, it's
whomever gets to pick a book, we read the book and we discuss what that's like. That was
the DEI panel for the schools that my children attended. DEI is not affirmative action, and
that's what I think everybody has been led to believe by this political administration. And
when you start scrubbing off, you know, you can't say the word enslaved in federal
government property or in the lexicon, we're done. We're done as a society. We're finished
because there is no equity there, there's no equality there. You are literally erasing history.
And as the great Chuck D from Public Enemy says, history is a mystery if we're not
learning. And that's just a fact. So that's the important part of my work, is to get truths out
that were never told before in a place that no one knew that these things were occurring.
Like you look at the data across the globe, the state of Vermont is one of the whitest
spaces on planet Earth. And so this just becomes even more challenging to discuss. I've
had death threats before my lectures, sent to the institutions and stuff. At least I know I'm
striking a cord. Right, I mean, hey, if I wind up dead as a result of my work, that means I
did the right work. I mean it would suck, I don't want it to happen, but it means they've
proven the point. It's a very broad but yet finite lens that humanity has to look back at itself,

16

�to reflect upon. And if we don't get those granular stories out, I think it would be a shame,
and it's okay to interrogate things.
I didn't know that, for example, as I was going through this, I didn't realize that there was
not a large presence, but there was a presence of Jewish people in Vermont. And there
was a Jewish cemetery the next town over. And as soon as I discovered that, I went over
and I paid my respects, and I went and I touched every single headstone there because I
knew why they'd come to Vermont. And to me that was just as moving as anything else, is
that these people came to this tiny little state to get away from living hell, just like my
ancestors had. I also learned that there was a very very small Asian presence dating back
to the 19th century. [Also] Lebanese, you learn all of these things as you're going through
history and you realize things were more expressive and in terms of on an organic level
and that there was cultural exchange and maybe things could grow from that. So we need
to do that, and I think genealogy and genetics, the only ways that we can accomplish that.
I'm a firm believer in that. I'm a very firm believer in that. I know that others would push
back and the points would be well made as to why not, but let's be honest. If we're doing
what we should be doing and if we're truthful about the things that we do, then maybe we
shouldn't have a problem with it. But then there's the weaponization of things. So and that
happens. We know that too. So that's that question.
SC [01:27:44] That makes me think a lot about your story. You have lots of places.
Obviously the focus is on Vermont, but you traced your lineage to multiple different
geographical and physical spaces. What does place mean to you? Maybe it doesn't have
to just be Vermont, but what does place or home mean to you?
JN [01:28:10] Let's take the Wizard of Oz. Dorothy says there's no place like home, but
what happens when you've never had a home? That's me. But conceptualization, I think,
of what you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, does knowing- just having this purview
of knowing so far what I've been able to farm from my genetic matches and where these
ancestors stretch back to, does that give me a sense of fulfillment as much as I as I
possibly can for home. Is it more settling for me? Maybe. So I have- genetic matches
pretty much all that I have to go from. So the largest prevalence of genetic matches that
we have from mom's side, black side of her family, come from Madagascar. We have a
ton. I mean, it's just, it's actually overwhelming the amount of genetic matches. And I've
been able to meet some of my genetic cousins. They live here in New York City, actually.
And they were sweethearts. I mean their phenotypes are- they look Filipino or Indonesian,
and they're just tiny, and they're all doctors. They moved from Madagascar to New York
maybe about 20, 25 years ago. So you know, I learned through that journey that you know
Madagascar was not a part of Africa until 1972. When it became an administrative part of
Africa, much like Puerto Rico is to the United States. That's what Madagascar is to the
continent of Africa and the African nations. It sits on its own continental shelf. It was
originally populated by Indonesians. Back around 700 AD, making it one of the youngest
populated nations in the world. And then East Africans made their way over shortly after.
And the genetics actually speak to that story as well, so that's pretty cool.
Probably the most eye-opening aspect of that from an historical standpoint was the king
who ruled over Madagascar was considered to be- now I don't want to use that. All of hisall of the citizens were subjects. You could apply the term slave master. I don't think thatit's not the same in African nations or in those areas, because chattel enslavement was
developed in the New World. That has legal precedent attached to it. In these
African/Indian Ocean Island nations, it was different. I'm the king, I own everything and
everyone in it, and I can send you off on a ship, and that's what he did. He traded and sent

17

�his citizens off with East India Trading Company, the Dutch trading company, so on and so
forth. Anybody on those sailing trips or the ship routes, shipping routes, they traded goods
for human beings. And the Malagasy people were purportedly, I think we can affirm that
now, the first enslaved sent to the New World with the Portuguese into Brazil. So I have
matches in Brazil and in analyzing the racial component of our shared genetic segments,
it's Southeast Asian admixture, which speaks to a Malagasy ancestor. And then when you
look at our shared matches, we share some Malagasy and matches who live in
Madagascar or live in European nations that came from Madagascar.
The shipping routes- human trafficking is everything if we're gonna understand history. It's
all about where ships could go and where they could bring humans back and forth from.
Enslavement of all forms for the most part was a big part of that, and it was just absolutely
fluid. When you look at the shipping routes that came from African nations into the
Caribbean, then down to South Africa, then down into South America rather, and then into
Central America, and then up to New England, and then back down into Central
America…it was constant back and forth, and people were constantly being moved
around. And you sit there and you try to make sense of it from a genetic standpoint. I have
a ton of matches from Mexico. So that probably speaks to Veracruz, because that was the
largest shipping port, enslavement port, south of the United States at that time. So I think
that's probably where my indigenous ancestry is coming from.
Then you look at the politics and the laws at that time. Great Britain had put their embargo
on enslavement, I believe it was around 1800, 1801, of the importation of enslaved people
from Africa, but that also left open for them to continue moving enslaved people around all
their territories. The Caribbean islands, Guyanas, South America, Honduras, I have
matches from Honduras and El Salvador, that whole area, and that was all British
controlled at that time. These humans were being moved from port to port. And finally they
made it up into Vermont and into me, sitting at this table in New York City. I mean, that's
how this works, right?
So you look at the laws, and then well, Thomas Jefferson was like, well, I'm not gonna let
Great Britain off like that. So we need to compete. Jefferson was competing with the
Carolinas for enslavement ports and the ports in general. So he drafted the embargo on
the importation of enslaved people from Africa. It got passed into law in 1807, I believe it
was 1810, that he signed the Louisiana Purchase. Napoleon was going broke. He's like I'm
gonna control supply and demand. And so he bought- negotiated with Napoleon, bought
the Louisiana territories, which at that point was a huge part of the United States, barring
Mexico. People don't understand, I mean, the land mass of Mexico, comprised almost 60%
of the United States of America as we know it today. Think about that. You think about, all
the people that you think are Mexican down in Mexico, no, no, no, no. Those people are
still here all over the United States, Colorado, New Mexico, I mean, all the way, California.
It's really spectacular what genealogy has done for me in terms of understanding this
history playing out the way that it is. So Jefferson, by making this law, controlled the supply
from within. So now they weren't going into African nations and bringing back 40-year-old
men who could only last five years on a sugar plantation in the Caribbean, and now it
became a breeding operation. And so women on his plantation were bearing 12 to 15
babies per. And they were being sold to plantation owners to populate the Louisiana
territories because they were building new plantations down there.
Concurrently, you had as far north up to New Jersey, judges who were well, judges and
other people, but I know of one judge, Judge Van Wickle from my hometown of New
Brunswick, New Jersey, was taking slaves that had been manumitted in the state of New

18

�Jersey in 1802 and throwing them back into the rotation, selling them downriver to
Louisiana for re-enslavement. He and his son set up the shop. The sun went down, bought
up plantations, the judge would take them into court, send them down. So you see this
history becomes alive, and you're sitting there going, this is not okay, and why haven't we
learned these things? I mean, we understand that Indigenous people were enslaved and
caught up in this. We understand that for all intents and purposes women were practically
enslaved, they couldn’t file a lawsuit against their husbands, they couldn’t divorce, in many
states they couldn't inherit property, you couldn't leave if your husband like put violence
upon you, you couldn't- there wasn't anything that you could do. All your husband could
do, like in the New England States, was call you a witch, they throw you in a river and if
you float whatever, it's just like, why aren't we learning these things? Give me my piece of
me back. You take your piece of you back. Because if we don't understand the puzzle,
how can we understand the whole of it? I think it's just integral to who we are and what we
need to understand about each other. All I know is I've done what I've done, what I could
for my mother, myself, and my children, I've imparted it all. They were all a part of the
process. And let me tell you, it was ugly. I mean there were parts that I'm not proud of that
it just wore me down. Really, really wore me down. There were parts that were really bad.
And the sad fact is, my brother's not interested in any of this. So he can't- he's not gonna
tell his children and I don't think it's my place yet.
If they come to me at some point in life and say, “hey, tell me a little bit more about my
family,” I'd be happy to do that. Not everybody is as passionate about it as I am, I guess.
But I still think if we do it at an early stage, then we've tried.
SC [01:41:28] You touched on some of the political things going on with erasure. How do
you feel about the upcoming 250th commemoration of the Declaration of Independence
next year?
JN [01:41:50] You know, that's one of the things that I've learned throughout this whole
process is that this nation was forced upon us. It wasn't something that was a natural
symbiosis, it was something that now it stands as a net positive. And I asked myself this
question. Would I trade it all, my existence, the existence of my children, to take it back to
where we were? And the answer is probably not. Leave things as they are. I mean, we
can't change the past unless we're in a big game simulation and we learn how to flick it
back to the past.
But the people I was told to be proudest of, the American heroes, they're no longer those
things in my mind. I can't rah-rah a George Washington. I can't rah-rah Thomas Jefferson
knowing the things that I know. It's one thing to be an enslaver, it's another thing to be a
mean and vindictive enslaver who utilized rape as a methodology of increasing supply and
creating laws that allow for that to happen. I just can't bring myself to do that. You know,
the Declaration of Independence was not- it was meant for some of my family, but not for
all of my family. The independence from Great Britain. We don't have a king, but do we
have a king? I mean we might be having a king again. I don't know. I honestly don't know.
The Supreme Court is telling us one thing. You know, it looks like we might have a king
and we always have. My hope is not for all of you listening to me right now. I really don't
want to have a king. It was none of our decisions to be born or where we were born. The
two things that we cannot control, our births and our deaths. Although it looks like we
might be able to control our death, our death destiny, I should say. We can control our
death, and our lives. But we can't control where we were born, who we were born to. So to
tell me that I pop out of my mother's womb and I have to be a rah-rah American just

19

�because that happened on this soil without understanding the contract, the social contract,
and everything that was behind it, I think that's a little disingenuous.
I don't have a problem with it if you educate me first. Don't say I don't have a conscience
and I'm supposed to follow this and be very happy and wave a flag and everything else. I
have very strong feelings about the military and the women and the men who sacrifice
themselves, including the families who are at home waiting for their soldier to return. I
support them fully, even though I might not support the wars that we get ourselves into.
But every sacrifice that is made on behalf of whatever's happening, I have nothing but
honor and respect for them. But again, we're never really told the full truths of why we're in
certain situations. And I think that pains me more for these soldiers who go in. That they
think one thing, but it's actually something else. It's possible. I'm not saying that's what it is
100%, but I think that there might be some people who make money off of wars, let's put it
that way. I think that's provable.
People are flawed, we're fragile, we're imperfect, but when you do it intentionally, if
anything, if hate is what's guiding us in our decision-making process in any way, shape, or
form, other than hate itself, I have a very difficult time standing by you and supporting you
with that. I put a high value on ethics and just being an all-around decent human being. I
don't pay attention to religions or anything like that. It's just who are you? What are you
about? I'm here with you, we'll walk through this together kind of a thing.
SC [01:47:35] That's a refreshing perspective.
JN [01:47:37] Yeah, well it's how I raised myself to be. I pretty much had to raise myself.
So I saw in my household what love was supposed to be, and that was nothing but hate.
So I knew that that wasn't what I wanted. And I couldn't understand why. If things were like
that in your own house, imagine what it's like in the world outside, right? So I guess I made
it my thing that hate can't be a part of what guides me.
SC [01:48:15] That's awesome. A question that came up to me is–and you've spoken
about this through process-specific stories–so if you don't want to answer this question, it's
fine. But what is the significance of family to you overall?
JN [01:48:40] Actually, I don't think I've ever been asked that question. I have, you know, I
have a very fractured view of family and what it should be and what it ought to be and who
gets included and who isn't included and like my emotional dissonance is a big part of that.
When you watch television and you see the Brady Bunch, you're like, that's a family. That's
what I want my family to be like, and you know you're not- you don't have six kids and you
don't- none of that is reality, but in my head, that's reality. I'm like, that's gotta be a reality.
And then you look around at your other friends, when you're a little kid, you're like, okay,
those people are nice, they're nice, they seem to be nice, and then by the time you get to
middle school, people start getting divorced in your friend circles. And you're like, wow,
that's tough, divorce. I wish my parents would divorce. It wouldn't be until my junior year
that my parents actually divorced, and I was very, very happy. I was extraordinarily happy
actually. It's like a dream come true.
My father's family, whenever we go to Vermont, they're so stoic. There were no
conversations. We never had, we never did anything together. Every once in a while, yeah,
we go up if it's summertime, we throw some burgers on the grill, maybe we go out fishing.
But…nobody talked. There was no family talk. There wasn't any, “hey, what do you want to

20

�be when you grow up?” kind of conversations. I don't recall ever having a substantive
conversation with anybody as a child. Now I could be wrong, but there is no recollection of
that for me. So there wasn't a foundation for me to construct my family around. I just know
that I knew that I wanted to have a family more than anything in life. So that was the only
goal I had set. And I found somebody who wanted to have that with me. And I'm just like,
you're nuts. And I can't believe she's still with me, but she is. And we have two wonderful
daughters, and we just hope that, I just hope that I was not anything like my father. And I
know that I wasn't. And I've been present for them and I was there, and I tell them that I
love them and I tell them, even though you know, you may make a mistake here or there
that you are loved and you'll grow from this, and so on and so forth.
I think they're well grounded, but you just don't know. The pandemic happened and it
happened at a point in their lives where they were transitioning from elementary to middle,
and the other one was middle to high school, so these were like nexuses, nexi of growth
periods for them. So there was definitely some disconnect there. And so I'm concerned
that you know, maybe our kids don't have that ability to interconnect personally with people
in the same ways that I did. You know, my life is not based on a computer. That's not how I
communicate with people on the regular. It's secondary. You know, you send out an email.
I'm not socially very gifted, so I don't make a lot of phone calls, nor do I answer the phone
when people call. And my wife's like, yeah, and you wonder why you don't have friends,
and I'm just like, well, it's just part of who I am. I get tongue-tied, twisted, my whole body
tightens up, I break out in sweats, and say it's so weird. It is weird, even when family calls,
I won't pick up the phone, ever. Yeah, it's crazy.
So, I always wanted a family, but I knew that I probably wasn't gonna be the best prepared
participant. And even now that I've found new family members, they're beautiful people,
but I'm still…very distant. And even with my father's family, the new family that I found.
We're very distant, but we've met each other. And we send emails and pictures every once
in a while, and that's about it. But our family, I don't really understand it. I was always
jealous of people with large families, like you were saying, and I always wanted that. Just
because you can get lost in that. You're not bound to one set of parents and one sibling
who are always screaming and yelling at each other. It's 300 people who are yelling and
screaming at each other, and you can move from one cluster to the next. If you don't like
that cluster, you go to the next cluster. You get big gatherings and stuff like that. That never
happened. So I try to replicate those kinds of things with group circles. I have people over
for Halloween parties, I cook pizzas and stuff for them. We have social gatherings
throughout the year. But I realized that they're all like my wife's friends, they're not mine.
They were, you know, they were formed throughout the school year with the kids'
playmates. But being that we have two daughters and our kids are girls, and so the
mothers spoke with each other, it was just me inviting people over. We don't get a lot of
invitations back. So family is- it's a foreign entity to me. I don't really know what that
means, to be honest with you.
SC [01:55:37] So you're working on a book and other projects, can you tell us more about
those and how people can look out for them?
JN [01:55:56] Yeah, the manuscript is complete and I'm searching for an agent, a literary
agent, and hoping to get published through a traditional publisher. And then like everybody
else, get this thrown into movie rights, film rights. I have spoken with a few people in the
industry who are interested. So I do believe that it's going to get done. But I can't give you
the title.

21

�SC [01:56:38] Oh, no problem. That's okay. Share whatever you want.
JN [01:56:40] Yeah, it's just one of those things that I've been told I can't do anymore.
Beyond that I'm working as a consultant with the state of Vermont for their Truth and
Reconciliation Commission. That's a finite project rather. There are a lot of things that need
to happen with them, and I'll be making recommendations. If the state is really serious
about understanding enslavement, the black community, they're going to have to do a lot
more work than what's in front of us and what I'm doing right now. A lot more work
because there are things that can be done. It's just, it takes time and it takes money.
Beyond that, I produced a film on race, a documentary. It's called A White Man Walks Into
a Barber Shop. It's about a white director who has always been plugged into the black
community. At the end, at the beginning of the Obama administration, he decided he
wanted to film conversations on race in black-owned barbershops across the nation. And
so he traverses the country down South, up North, California, in the midsection, and has a
lot of great conversations with people, and he gets inside his own head and he comes to
this conclusion that he is somehow a racist, which he’s not at all, but he just thinks
because maybe he had some sort of implied bias that equated to him becoming a racist,
but it wasn’t.
We had a lot of interesting conversations with book publishers in Alabama who changed
the wording in Huck Finn, Huckleberry Finn, they took out all the bad words and replaced
them and we thought that was a little heavy handed in terms of editing. But when he
explains it in the film, you’re like, ok I can understand it. He’s like, I couldn't sell Huck Finn
to any of the teachers and I don’t want this book to die so I decided to come up with the
idea to edit out all the bad words and replace them. And he goes, I understand that I’m
taking creative license with someone else’s work, but it’s a matter of survival for the book.
And so there is this great conversation between him and the director which I think is
probably the best part- the compelling part of the film. That's available on Apple TV and
Tubi. Free of charge! Beyond that, I'm just struggling along like everybody else. Gonna
wait hoping that more work comes my way in this realm. But there aren't a lot of people
who are doing this kind of work. So it gets tough. I'm not a social media TikToker kind of
guy. Nobody wants to see me on TikTok, that's for sure. I don't know what the hell I'd say.
So that yeah, that's where it is. And I love this work. I'm married to it. There's nothing that
anybody could do to change that for me. The truth is, it's a nuisance. It's a very difficult
thing to discover the truth. And there the last the last line in my book, and I'll leave
everybody with this. The nuisance of knowledge is what true freedom promises to be. And
if we all put in that effort, no matter how much of a nuisance in our life it is or it seems to
be, coming out on the other side with the truth that you have, it really is a liberating
experience. Once you work through all of the things that you have discovered that we have
discovered on this journey, I think we come out better people for it. And I honestly believe
that.
SC: Thank you so much.

22

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New York Times (1857-1922); Aug 26, 1894;
ProQuest Historical Newspapers: The New York Times with Index
pg. 12

Reproduced with permission of the copyright owner. Further reproduction prohibited without permission.

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                    <text>258

LAWS OF NEW-YORK.
Jagit of Ht&gt;uvel, which lies between the village of Ogdensburg&amp; and
a point in 1aid road, one and an half miles northerly: from the
bridge over the Oswegatchie river at Heuvel, be and the same il
hereby annexed to the village of Ogdeqsburgh, and is hert•by constituted a r(Jad district, subject to be divided by the trustees of said
village or a major part of them, and that the same shall hereafter be
exempt from tf1e superintendence of the commissionel's ofhighways
of thP town of Oswegatchie ; and the said trustees shall hav., all
the powers over tbe said road district or districts, and disc:hargt" ull
the duties which 'by law are given to them over the highways and
streets of said village.

CHAP.

226.

AN ACT to incorporate the Village of Saratoga SpringB.
Passed April 17, 1826.
Bound• &lt;&gt;I' the
•illac•

1. BE it enacted by the People of the State of New-York, repreaented in SentJte and Assembly, That all that district of country Jy~

iog in the town of Saratoga Springs, county of Saratoga, and state
of New-York, situated between two lines parallel to, and each half
of a mile di3tant from the following described line, to wit : beginning on the line between the Livingston and Ostrander Jots, in the
centre of the highway, near the booSt" of Jesse Ostrander; running
northerly as the highway runs, till it strikes Broad-street, as laid out
on a map of lots at Saratoga Springs, belonging to Gideon Putnam,
thence northerly along the centre of Bri?ad-street, till thf' said line
intersects the highway leatling from the upper viUage to Greenfield,
near the new Methodist meeting-huu!M! ; thence north to Greenfield
line, shall continue to be called and known by the name of the village of Saratoga Springs ; and all the inhabitants residing within
the limits aforesaid; be and hereby are ordained, constituted and declared to be from time to time, and forever hereafter, a body corpo5tyle of the rate and politic, in fact and in name, by the name of "The Trus'1'"''""
tees of the village of Saratoga Springs," and by that name they and
their successors forever hereafter, shall and may have perpetual
succf'.SSion, n~d shall be persons in law capable of suing and being
sued, pleading and being impleaded, answering and being answered
unto, defending and being defended, in all courts and placea whatsoever ; and that they and their succes=rPrs may have .a com~on seal,
and may change or alter the !arne at pleasure : and also, that they
and their successors, by their corporate name, shall be capable of
purchasing, holding and conveying any estate, real or personal, for
the public use of the said village ; and or ert-cting any public building!, or aqueducts, and digging any reservoirs for water for the use
of said village, or extinguishing firl', and keeping in repair such
buildings, aqueducts and 1-eservoirs; of purchasing and kt"eping
in repair, fire ·engines, ladders, buckets and other instruments for
extinguishing fire.
f'-111111al:m«t
2. A1ul be it further eruzcted, That it shall and may be lawful
jjlg•
for the inhabitants of the saiti village, who are quali6ed to vote for
m·embers bf Assembly, to meet on the first Tuesday Of May neit,
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�FORTY-~INTH

SESSION.

259

at such time in the day, and at such place iu said village, as shall

be apvointed by .the justices of the peace residing in the uid village,
;r.nJ notified to the inhabitants lhereof, at least one week previous
thereto, by a notic,• in the newspaper printed in .the said village, or
posted up in three public places in the same, and then and there
elect by battot, five trustees, a clerk, treasurer, two constables and
overseers of highways for the said village, residents within the same, '
and such justices shall preside at such meeting as inspectors of tbe
said election. ; shall decide upon the qualifications of persons offering to vote ; and for the purpose of ascertaining the qualidcations of
persona offering to votv, may adroinister an oath, and interrogate them,
anJ shall declare the persons having the greatest number of votes duly
elected; and on every first Tuesday of May thereafter, there shall in
like manner be a new election of the said officers for the said village ; and the trustees Jor the time being, shall preside at sucb dec~.
tion, give notice thereof, and cooduct the same as the justicts are
above directed.
3. And be it fortlu!r enacted, That the trustees shall have the ~pecial •••t
power to call special meetings, which shall be conducted as annual'.,.
meetings are, whenever they or a majority deem fit; either" to fill
vacancies in offices happening by death, abaenoe or inability, or for
other purposes, and the officers elected at an annual or special meet·
ing, ,shall hold their offices till others are duly qualified to succeed
tbem.
4. And be it further enacted, That if any inhabitant of the said Peoattr.for .
village qualified at the time to vote for the said officers, shall be :i'.tc~d,., ,r
elected to any office in the Aid village, except treasurer and constables, and having notice thereof, shall for ·five Jays after such notice,
neglect or refuse to take upon IJimself such office, he shall for such
neglect or refusal, forfeit the sum of t.wenty-five dollars, to be recovered in the name of the treasurer of the &amp;aid village, for the use
thereof, in an action of debt in any court baving cognizance thereof,
, with costs of suit.
· 5 • .And be it further eaacted, That the trustees within ten da.}'l P"aideDt
after their election in every year, or the majority of them, shall assemble in said village, and choose some suttable person of their bO.
. dy, to be president of said board of trustees ; whose duty it shall be
.. when present, to preside at the meetings of the trustees, to order ex·
traordinary meetings of the trustees whenever he shall think proper, to receive comvlaints of the breach of th~ by-laws; to ,see that
the· by-laws, rules .and ordinances are faithfully executed 'lnd ebserved ; and to presecute in the name of the treasurer all offenders
against such by-laws, and to see that the publk property belonging
to the said village, be auitably taken care of and kept in order ; and
to do such other acts and things as may be proper for him as presi·
dent of the board of trustees ; and in case of the death or disability
of 'he president, the said trustees !shall choose out of their body, a
..,ccessor in manner as above mentioned.
G. .And be it further en/Acted, That the said board of trusteea
shall bave, power .to establish such ordinances, by-laws and regulations as they shall think proper and reasooable, to prevent vice and
immorality ; .to .preserve peace and good order; to detect and rea&amp;qin every fraudulent devi. e and practice in said village; to prevent
c
tb.e
of .., spirituo.us liquor to any child, apprentice or servant
ci. hin the said villa{Ce, without a permit from his ur he
t
arent
Dig1t1zed by
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•r "'••

we-.

�260

LAWS OF NEW-YORK.
master or mistress; to prevent all riots, quarrelling or noisy conduct
in or about the premisn of any inhabitant within the said village; to
enforce the due obsernnce of the sabbalh ; to suppress and restrain
disorderly houses, houses of ill-fame and gaming houses, and otber
instrument~ and devices fur the purpose of gaming ; to regulate the
keeping and conveying of gunpowder and other combustible and
dangerous material,., and the use of lights in livery and other stablesJ to regulate the place and manner of weighing hay; to regulate
the running at large of dogs owned by persou11 residing in the village, or impose a reasonable tax on the owners ; to regulate and
prevent the firing of guns, muskets, pistols, rockets, crackers, squibs
and fire-balls in said village ; to regulate slaughter-houses ; to appnint lire engineers; to establish fire companies, and to prescribe
their powers and duties in preventing or extinguishing fires ; to authorise any magistrate or constable to stop any person riding or
driving immoderately through, or in any street or place in the village, or other WI ise prohibit such offences,; to abate or remove any
olrisance in any street or on the lot or inclosure of any person or
persons or in the highway ; to suspend any firemen and appoint
others in their stead, till the next meeting of the corporation, when
tbe cause for the suspension shall be stated to the meeting, who
may remove or restore the fireman ; to exempt firemen from serving on juries, except justices juries in the village; to ex~mpt them
from military duty; and the certificate of the president, dated within one month of the time of exhibiting it, shall be evidence of the
fact in all courts and places whatever : Provided, That the number of firemen shall not exceed sixteen tl) each engine in said village ; to require the lnhabitants to provide and keep suitable fire
buckets, and proper ladden to their houses, which are hereby declared-appurtenants to the real estate, and exempt from seizure, distress or sale in any manner whatever; and in case the owner or
occupant refuses to get ot procure suitable fire-buckets and ladders
after reasonable notice, th~ trustees may procure and deliver the
aame to him, her or them, and on def11ult of payment thereof, the
president may brio' an action for work and labour done for such occupant or owper, JD any court having cognizance tht"reof, in the
name of the treasurer, and shall be entitled to recover in such ac'tion the value of the fire-buckets i)r ladders or both, with costs of
. suit ; to inclose and regulate the public burial ground in the village ;
to prevent the incumbering of streets, highways, lanes •nd al•
Jeys, in any wise however ; to restrain the running at large of hl'rses, cattle, swine or geese ; to compel the cleaning of chimnies ; to
rt&gt;strain vagrants, beggars or persons soliciting alms ; to prevent and
remove all encroachments on every street, highway or alley in said
village ; and generally to make all such rules, regulations, by-laws
and ordinances for the good government and order of said village,
as the said board of trustees may deem expedient and proper, aot
repugnant to the laws and ~;onstitution of this state or the United
StatP.s; and to enforce the due observance thereof, by inflicting such
penalties on any citizen or inhabitant thett&gt;of, or other person or persons, for the breach of any by-law or ordinance of the said board,
not exceeding twenty-five dollars for any one offence, recoverable
with costs, in an action of debt by and in the name of the treasurer
of the aaid village, in any court having ~:ognizance thereof, witll .
I

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�FORTY-NINTH SESSION.
~ts of suit ; in whieh action the first process may be by warrant,

nor shall any exemption be allowed thereon, except necessary bedding, wearing apparel and working utensils ; in which action it
shall be lawful to declare generally in debt for such penalty, and to
give the special matter in 4ividence : .llrtd further, That for the purpose of enforcing the by-laws of the board of trustees against offen·
den, who have no goods or chattels, lands or tenemeRts, whereof
such· penalties can be made or collected, it shall be lawful for the ·
court before whom any such offender sball be duly convicted, to
cause such person to be imprisoned for a time not exceeding thirty
days, in the jait of the county of Saratoga; and that all fees and
expenses of prosecuting and punishing offenders under the said b,rlaws, shall be defrayed by the president, and that upon trial, examination or a judicial investigation of any issue, matter of fact, or
other thing wbatsoevP.r, arising unde•· this act, or any by-laws of·
the said trustees, no person shall be deemed incompetent as judge,
justice, juror or witness, by reason that he is an inhabitant of said
village; and if any person shall be prosecuted for any matter or
&amp;bing done by virtue of this act, it shall be lawful for such persons
to plead the general issue, and give this act and the special matter in
evidence at the trial, and in case judgment shall be rendered in fa·
vour of su!:h person-he shall recover double costs.
7 • .llnd be it further enacted, That the village of Saratoga Road district
Springs shall be1 and the same is hereby constituted a separate r•llld
district; and that the samE' shall be exempt from the superintend·
ance of the €om missioners ot highways of the town of !S11ratuga
Springs, and the 'trustees of said village are hereby elecled commis·
sioners of highways lor thE' same, except as tu laying out, altering or
disc:ontbuing any part of the highways within the same : and the
overseers ofhigbways t'lt'Cted for said villa~ shall h11ve the same
power, be subjoct to the same duties and to the same regulations
and orders of the commissioners of highw11ys (If the town uf ;)arllto:ga Springs, rt'lative to laying out, altering ·•r discuntinr1ing any part
of the highway in the said village; and silail have the·sa.me power,
and be subject to the same regulations of the trustees of the said· vill~e as commilllion~rs of. highways in all other matters, as overseers
of highway» by l11w now have ur are iubject to, giving in his h:~ts,
and being accountable to the trustt&gt;es aRd clerk in the sa1ue manner
as overseers of highways are bound by law to do to the town clerk
and commissioners of highways.
8. And be it further e11acted, That the trustees or the .said vii- f'onuniuion
lage, as commissioners of highways, shall assess the persons residing·•n nr bi'b
within the same, according to the "act to regulate highways," and ••Y'
the lands of non residents in said village, and streets ill said village
may be also assessed lor the improv~ment of highways, and if the .
assessment shall remain unpaid wht&gt;n the overseer makes his annual
report to the trustees, they oaay order by such regulations as they
deem expedient, the same or some part thereof tu be seld for the
shortest term of years, sufficient to raise the tax, after giving ~ix
weeks,public notice of such sale in the newspaper printed in the vii·
lll!te; six weeks notice in the newspaper printed by the printer
to. tbe state, and allowing the owner one year after the sale to redeem .tbe same on paying the expense of said assessment, and expense of sale, aud the interest thereon ; and the overseer of highDigitized by

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�LAWS OF NEW-YORK.
ways of the said village after performing such labour on the highways and streets in said village, as the trustees shall direct, shall
... pay all menies remaining in his hands to the treasurer of the village,
and all monies arising from the sale of non residents lands, not appropriated to the improvement of the highways and streets, shall
also be paid into the treasury of tbe village.
·
Gommi•i•n
9. Jlnd be it further enacted, That the trustees of dJe said vii.,. of or.ci.. lage, for six years from the last day of April neu, shalt be commiasioners of excise for the said village, and have the exclusive power
of granting licenses to keep inns and taverns, and permits to retail
strong or spirituous liquors under five gallons, to persons within tbe
limits of the said village, which licenses and per111its shall have the
same effect as if granted by the commissioners of excise of. the town
of Saratoga Springs.
Li••-• o.od
10. And be it further enacted, That the trustees- io granting
permit•
licenses and permits as aforesaid, shall conform in all things to the
"act to lay a duty on strong liquors, and for regulating inns and
taverns," and shall pay over all monies received by them for licenses
or permits, and the fees received for granting the same, to the trustees
of the said village, and all forfeitures for selling liquors contrary to
the said " act to lay a dtity on strong liquors, and for regulating inns
and taverns," happening .or arising within the village, and it shall
be paid to thl' treasurer, and it shall be tbe doty of the president of
the hoard of trustees to prosecute all such offenders against the said
' act \Vithin the limits of the village, in the name of •he treasnnr, and
the expen'les of such prosecution · shall be paid by · the ~rustees on
the warrant of the presideat.
l'ire eag;11.,
11. And be it further enacted, That the trustees shall expend
one half of the monies received lor liceases for inns and taverns, or
permits to sell strong er spirituous liquors under five gallons ; and
forfeitures for violations of the " act to lay a duty on strong liftuors,
and for regulating inns and taverns" as aforesaid; in purchasing engines, 11inking reservoirs, building engine houses, and procuring the
necessary apparatus to employ engineers to best advantage, and they
are hereby authorised to pledge the fund arising from these som-ces,
for the term aforesaid, and to procure as &amp;Qon as couvenint one or
more engines, and the necessary apparatus for usiug them, for the
use of the village: Pro.,ided, That the trustees shall pay the other
half of the said monies for the use of the poor of the said town, to the
overseers of the poor of the town of Saratoga.
12. And be it further eJWcted, That it shall be lawful for the
trustees of the village to permit or restruin the exhibition of any natural or artificial curiosities or caravan of animals, or other shows
or exhibitions for money, undel' such regulations as they shall deem
expedif'nt, and to direct the constables to attend and prevent riots
or quarrelling at 01 near any such exhibitions.
13. Ar~d be itfurtlter enacted, That it shall and may be lawful
F!reetion a
bout the
for the trustees of the said village, by and with the consent in writ•prior•
ing, signl'd by the owner or occupant o( the land on which any of
thl' medicinal or mineral springs within tbe said village are situated, or upon which any su~h spring may hereafter be ·round; tQ
make erections about the said springs for ,the convenience of perS4)0s visiting the same, for the purpose of drinking and otherwise
using the waters ; t&amp; see that the passage ·to and from the 111tid
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�FORTY-NINTH SESSION.
springs is kept open; and to prevent the same from being interrupted by carts, wagona or other carriages, or by lumber of any kind ;
te appoint proper persons to attend the spring, and draw the water
for such as wish to drink or etherwise make use of the same, without demanding any compensation for the same; ~o make regulatioos
for preserving deanlint&gt;ss about the spring and the purity of the
fountains, and to inflict such penalties on persons offending against
such regulations as the trustees deem fit, to be recovered in like
manner as tbe penalties mentioned in the sixth section ef this act.
14. And be it further enacted, That it shall and may be lawful BottliacU..
for the said trustees, by and with the consent,1 in writing, of the watero
owner or eccupant of the lands on which any mineral or medicinal
spring or fountain is situated, to regulate the hours of bottling and
putting up of the waters at the said springs.
15. And be it further enacted, That the president shall keep a Aceoua11
just and accurate~ account of his necessary expenses and disbursements, at all reasonable times, open to the inspection of the inhabitants of l!llid village, and on exhibiting the same to the treasurer,
shall be entitled to receive the amount thereof out of any money in
the treasury. ·
,
16. And~~~ it futttl&amp;er e11acted, That the trustees shall, each and To be 01hibit
every year, at the place where the annual meeting is hel&lt;!, exhibit a eo~ aaaullll7
statement of the money received by them or paid out on their warraot, the amount expended, and how expended, which statement
shall be left with the said clerk at least three days prior to such election, and open for inspection.
17• .llnd be it further enacted, That the clerk shan· keep two Clerk's •atr
separate books, to be furnished by the trustees ; in one book shall
be entered the proceedings of the meetings of tht! corporation, election of officers, and votes and appropriations of money, and other
proceedings of t!Je meetings; and in the other book shall be entered
the votes and the proceedings of the trustees; and the trustees are
required to supply S!J_ bonks as often as may be necessary ; the
ch
clerk shall k~ep ori tile in his office all reports of trustees, treasurers
and overseers of highways, the bonds of treasurers and constables,
all recognizances taken on granting licenses to taverns or permits
to retail liquors, all ass~sment!; of road taxes made by the trustees,
and aU papers belonging to and relating to the said village.
· 18• .llnd be it further enacted, That the treasurer, before he en:- ~reasurorto
ters on rlte duties &lt;&gt;f his office, shall give a btmd with two or more awe boad
sutlieient sureties, being freeholders of the said village, to the trustee~~, in such penalty as they deem fit, conditioned for the faithful
performance of his duty as such treasurer.
19. And be it furtw eMcted, That the treasurer shalt keep a To keep ae
separate account of all monies received by t.im for licenses under ~:;•:e:!i:'•
the" act to lay a duty on strong liquors, and for regulating inns and forli••••..
taverns," and shall,' at every annual meeting, makP a statement of
tbe receipts and disbursemf'nts of the same, and shall also make a
statement to the same meeting of all the monies received by him,
and for what the same were received, and of all monies paid out of
the treasury, and for wh&amp;t purposes the same was paid out, and the
1 monies remaining in the trf'asory, if any.
; ·!0. .llnd be it furtw enacted, That it shall be the duty of the How to P•7
treasurer to pay out menies io the treasury on the warrant of the outmoae7
Digitized by

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�LA W5 OF NEW- YOR~.

trusteess, or a majurity of them, and he shall P,ay such sums of mo·
ney t&lt;) the president and clerk as may be vuted to them for their
services.
c .onstableo.to
21 • .llnd be it further enacted, That the constables elected for
,,.. seeunty the said village shall give security for the faithful performance of
their duties to the trustees, and shall have the same powers, and be
subject to the same duti41s, in all cases, civil and crimin~, within the
county of Satatoga, us constables elected by the town- of Saratoga
Springs ;at the annulll town meeting. .
.
Fire wvdeao
22. Axd be it furtlter enacted, That it shall and may bt&gt; lawful
for the trustet&gt;s to appuint three fire-wardens, whose duty it shall be,
at all reasonable times, to. el)ter upun and examine the premises of
any person within said village, in order to discovt&gt;r sourct&gt;s where
damagt&gt; by firt&gt; may be expt&gt;cted ; and if they shall discover that the
premises of any person are in such a situation ai to require any
precaution against damage by fire, they shall report the same to tbe
.trustees, who shall give reasonable notice of such report to the owner
or occ~pant of the premises ; and if ht&gt; or sbe shall refuse or neglect to take the proper measures for the prevention of fires, the
trustt&gt;es may take sucb measures, and bring an action of debt in tbe · (
name of the trustees for tht&gt; expense, and the sum so recovered may
be collected in the manner provided for the collection of the expense
of proYiding fire-buckets and ladders.
A public act
28. Arul be it furtMr enacted, That this act is hereby dedared
to be a public act, and that all the rights and privileges hereby
granted are subject to a right in the lt&gt;gislature t? amend, alter or
repeal the same.

CHAP.

227.

AN ACT to secure to tAe Owners and Proprietors tif Little Lake
the exclusive right of Fishing therein after a limited titne, Gild
for directing tAe Mode for taking Fiala in certain Waters ir&amp; tAe
County of Greene.
·
Passed Aprill7, 1826.
WHEREAS it is rt&gt;presented that Nicholas Russell, Benjamin
M. Young, John ,4... Shaft&gt;r, Richard Young and Thomas Lawyer,
are the owners and proprietors of a small lake at the foot of Kerker's mountain, in the towns of Carlisle and Cobelskill, in the county of Schoharie, and that they contemplate to raise, cultivate and
improve in the said lake the growth of fishes : Therefore,
F iohina rep
1. BE it enacted by the People of tAe State of New- York, repre·
Jatd
Bented in Senate and A88embly, That it shall not be lawful for any
person or persons to ta!.e or catch, or cause ur procure to be taken
and caught, in any way or manner, any of the fish in the lake callt&gt;d Uttle lake, io thi towns of Cobelskill and Carlisle, in the county
of Schoharie, from and after the passage of this act, excepting the
owners and proprietors of said lake, after the first day of December
in the year one thousand eight hundred and twenty-eight.
Pewlieo
2. Allfl be it further enacted, That evt&gt;ry person who shall offend against the provisions_of this act shall, for every such offence,
••••mbla

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              <text>AN ACT to incorporate the Village of Saratoga SpringB.&#13;
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 1. BE it enacted by the People of the State of New-York, represented in Senate and Assembly, That all that district of country Jying in the town of Saratoga Springs, county of Saratoga, and stateof New-York, situated between two lines parallel to, and each half of a mile distant from the following described line, to wit : beginning on the line between the Livingston and Ostrander Jots, in the&#13;
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