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Hess	
Interview with Gregory Hess by Harry Sultan, Skidmore College
Saratoga Memory Project, Skidmore College, NY June 1st, 2018

Harry Sultan: So we're all set to get started. If I could just have you introduce
yourself.
Gregory Hess: Sure. My name's Gregory Hess, or Greg, and I'm from the class of
'78.
HS: And uh what did you major in when you were at Skidmore?
GH: I had a double major in biology and in chemistry and then a minor in
business.
HS: What is it like to come back to this campus that you graduated from all those
years ago.
GH: It's a little odd in that it reminds you of how old you are. I can't believe I
graduated forty years ago from Skidmore and I think most people my age
all say the same thing that when we look in the mirror, we imagine
someone in their twenties or in their thirties but can't imagine someone in
their sixties. That usually strikes me when I come back to campus. And the
other part is that it's grown tremendously and it's still very vibrant which is
great.
HS: Is this your first time back?
GH: No, I've been back several times.
HS: And is it different every time you come back?
GH: I would say so, you know it continues to grow. I mean literally there are
new buildings, things are being renovated. I was back just giving a small
lecture to one of the classes about a month ago and I'd been back for a
number of occasions, so I always see change which is part of Skidmore's
motto
HS: And walking around on campus, is there any spot that you see that brings
you immediately back to when you were a student?
GH: Um, you know probably the dining hall. It's much nicer now in terms of
when we were here physically. Although I have to say at the time, Skidmore
food was still pretty renowned in the northeast as one of the better places to
go to college and have a good meal. But it's much more upscale now.
HS: What does it feel to see the dining hall as it is now and remember what it
was like back then?
GH: You know, very positive. Great experiences there, shoot the breeze about
what had happened during the day and what was coming up. So it's just a
great place to socialize. And the food, again, was pretty good so you can't
complain. But now you look around and they have all the food stations and

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a lot of different options and variety and you realize the school has changed
but I think for the better.
And outside of chemistry and biology and science classes, what other types
of classes did you take at Skidmore.
Probably the most odd one in a way was, I took ballet when I was here.
That's the type of thing that I of course didn't anticipate when I first came to
Skidmore
What was it like to take a ballet class?
It was very funny at first. You may know the history, but when I was here,
Melissa Hayden was a prima ballerina for the New York City Ballet and
was very very well known. And it was shortly after she left that position
that Skidmore was able to recruit her which was considered quite a coup at
the time and I had no familiarity with ballet at all - I'm not even sure if I
had ever seen a ballet. So we were starting the Skidmore Hockey Club and
after one of our later night practices had ended, we all sort of barged into
one of the faculty get togethers that was going on to see if we could scarf
down the last appetizers and things that were still there. So uh - they were
fine about it - you know it had dwindled down to a small crowd and I
started talking to this one woman, you know, more interested in the hors
d’oeuvres than chatting, but I was trying just to be social. And so as I
started asking her questions, things along the lines of "oh are you a faculty
member here, or are you the wives of one of the faculty?". She said "no I
teach here" and started telling me more - someone later said, you know
thats Melissa Hayden, the prima ballerina of New York City - and part of
our conversation when I said I was teaching skiing up the road at West
Mountain and Gore and on the hockey team, she was explaining to me how
athletic it is to be a ballet dancer and so I was really more just kidding I
said, 'yea that'd be great to take ballet, yea.' So next thing you know I got in those days we didn't really have email - I think I got a note in the mail
from the registrar saying 'you're failing phys-ed something-or-other' and I'm
not sure how it happened, but apparently she signed me up for ballet. So
she wouldn't let me out without trying at least a couple of classes, so that's
how I got into ballet.
And do you think it helped you in skiing and hockey?
It really did, I was amazing at how much strength it took to do that. You
know, I was a horrible dancer, but it was a great activity for me. And I must
say, it helped me get into medical school eventually which is one of my
primary professions. She wrote me a great recommendation, and when I
was being interviewed in fact, they remarked on it. That they were

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interested in diversity and were pleased to see that I took something out of
just science and biology.
And so you took a lot of science, biology, dance; outside of academics what
sort of things did you do?
I was fortunate that Skidmore gave me a great deal of financial aid to come
here but at the same time when I came - so I'll put it in context, I was a bit
overwhelmed by the ratio of men to women so I think as part of that and
also though still having a lot of financial need, I ended up getting a job
bartending downtown, that was when the drinking age was still eighteen in
New York - and I was actually seventeen when I first came here but they
didn't think to ask for an ID, my birthday is late October. So I ended up
bartending at a number of places in town and waiting tables and that gave
me another dimension. A lot of the Skidmore students would come there
but a lot of friends who were quote townies as we referred to them at the
time, but you know, great people. And then I had a lot of friends that I
developed, again, from teaching skiing, so that was a great experience to
have sort of a foot in the Skidmore Saratoga Springs environment and also
at the ski centers.
So what was it like, maybe not having two separate lives, but two separate
social scenes, one on campus with Skidmore students and one downtown
with the locals.
It really was the best of both worlds. Because I bartended downtown and
Skidmore was about 2,000 students at the time - fairly similar to today you get to at least know by recognition, if not name, most of the students.
And the bars I was a bartender in were extremely popular at the time, so
you know a ton of students would come up and I'd know them, and we'd
chit-chat briefly. So it was a great way to see the students and at the same
time I did a number of things with the folks from town. In fact there was
one group of guys that were recent grads from other colleges who had just
migrated here to have jobs and they were in their early 20s and were quite a
cast of characters. So they actually got written up in the New York Times as
an example called the TI's which stood for 'terminally immature'. And you
know, they had their pros and cons but they were largely hysterical guys in
many aspects, and it was great had a great group of guy friends that gave
me, again, another dimension. But had a lot of great guy friends on campus
too.
So you said you were part of the hockey club?
I was. I was one of the founding members, yep.
And is that the same hockey club that's around today.

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GH: It is. I think it's morphed into, if I understand right, into division three
hockey here. So yea, at the time ya know, it was a great experience. I grew
up in the time when we were still influenced by John Kennedy in the sixties
and even in the Vietnam days in the seventies when people said, 'ya know,
we can make things happen'. So I think at Skidmore at the time, part of the
reason they made it clear that they were - if you would - sort of recruiting
me, and they were great in the admissions process, made it clear that they
would value me coming here, and made it possible for me to come here was
they were looking for men to help really create the co-educational
environment and that included things like starting sports. Cause when I
came here there was soccer and that was the only sport. So they encouraged
us to start clubs so we did with the hockey team. You know, we went to the
phys-ed head and said, 'ya know, we wanna do this' and one of the Kennedy
sayings I liked at the time was, 'if not us, then who. And if not now, then
when?". So we started a lot of things like that. We also started the baseball
team and it was just a bunch of guys that got together and it was great. And
we actually had women on our hockey team by the way, that time we had
so few guys we had two women who had come from some of the New
England prep schools and we were actually quite good which I think
surprised some of the clubs that showed up to play us from Union and
Hamilton and other groups.
HS: Did you play hockey and baseball in high school or did you start just for the
sake of starting a team.
GH: Almost really for the sake of starting the team. Mostly I played a lot of
hockey, pond hockey as we would call it, so it was pretty familiar to me that
way. I didn't play baseball in school, I did play soccer and tennis and
periodically I played one year on the tennis team here, and played on the
soccer team three or maybe four years here.
HS: Are there any special memories from starting the club, I mean what was it
like being the founder of something that is now something so big in
Skidmore culture?
GH: You know it was just a ton of fun. I was just, to be clear, I was one of a
number of guys that got together and founded it but I would say one of the
things I think about is because ice time is cheapest late at night or early in
the morning, we were last on the peg. We played on a rink down on East
Avenue or just off it if I remember, and really it was an outdoor rink that
they just had enclosed it in wood. It was pretty rustic. So we would get
really hot and sweaty playing through the periods and when we were sitting
on the benches because it wasn't a fancy arena and pretty cold it was very
common that many times after sitting out for the period you'd get up and

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you'd realize there were icicles hanging off your hair literally. And we'd be
breaking them off. And there was no locker room, we'd change up here and
go down. And it was just a lot of fun, a lot of great contact. I ended up
playing goalie, was one of the funnier things that happened at one point
because our goalie, if I remember right, got his wrist broken or sprained in
a slap-shot and no one else wanted to be goalie and it was something like I
stepped out for a second and came back and they said, 'great, we just
elected you our new goalie'. And I was horrible. And no surprise I think my
nickname was a sieve which was very appropriate.
And so did this all happen during your freshman year that you started the
club?
Ya know, I really don't remember. I think it was probably more my
sophomore year or junior maybe.
And do you remember your first night at Skidmore?
I don't remember my first night, I do remember my first day. Vividly.
Could you talk about that?
Sure. The first class I walked into was an english seminar class in Case
Center at the time, so those were relatively small rooms. And it was an
oval, or oblong table, sat maybe twelve-to-fourteen people. And when I
walked in I realized, and we sat down, we were waiting for the teacher who
was a bit late, and we're all sitting there in silence, no one really knew each
other and everybody was feeling a little awkward. I realized there were two
guys and there were twelve women. And I was like, 'oh my god, what have
I got myself into'. I don't think I'd even had thought to ask really what's the
ratio before I came here, so at first that was really overwhelming. The other
thing I remember though is my roommate who was very very quiet. We had
nothing to do, we were just sitting in our room so I said 'come on, let's just
go out and take a walk around'. So we were walking around, and most
people as well I think were feeling pretty awkward so you know, you'd
walk towards someone, and they'd look up and we just started saying hello,
and most people would say hello back, and that was great, we were getting
the reaction you'd anticipate and hope for. And then we came upon one
person and, it was a woman, and I remember we both said, ya know, 'hi,
how are you' and we got no response and we were a little puzzled and put
off and they walked another ten feet past us and we both looked at each
other and he turned around and said 'what's your problem?' So we got still
no response, but I still remember that cause my roommate just cracked me
up.
Did you ever find out who she was?
I didn't. I didn't. Mystery, yea that's right.

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HS: And what was the adjustment like being that there was so few men at the
time going into this recently co-ed school.
GH: You know, at first for me it really was overwhelming. I was I think
relatively shy at that time and hadn't had a serious girlfriend in high school
et cetera, so I'm not sure but I think all that combined and the lack of sports,
there wasn't even a locker room for men there wasn't a male dorm on
campus, there was a floor on the 7th story of the tall dorm here. And in fact
we used to call it heaven on the seventh floor. Ya know it was
overwhelming. So I actually transferred, or actually applied to transfer out
but by the time I was accepted and then gotten the acceptance in the spring,
I had made enough good friends and kind of adjusted to the amount of
women that were here, and a lot became good friends of mine. You know I
love the place and decided to stay.
HS: Was there one thing in particular that made you flip that switch to loving
Skidmore?
GH: I don't think there was one thing. I think there was that combination. I mean
among other things, I guess a specific example I was accepted at Cornell
for transfer, and they had two electron microscopes. And in Skidmore we
still have - I think it might even be the same one, it's probably a newer one
than when I was here. But that was pretty amazing that a school of 2,000
people had an electron microscope worth at that time hundreds of
thousands if not more than that dollars. And yet I could go in and use it
almost virtually any time so that was great and it really was a great learning
experience. But I went to Cornell and they had two and I thought 'oh that's
great' and I mention it to one of the people almost as a question of how to
get access to it. And they said, 'well undergrads really don't get access to
that, you know once you're a grad student you might get access to it but you
have to be on a waiting list and there's only so much time'. So I started to
realize things like the professors here were primarily dedicated to teaching
and not so much research and Cornell as I started to really look at it, you
were taught more often by grad students who were really teachers assistants
and the professors were really more interested in publishing, in research, in
grants, in really not teaching. So things like that really made a difference
for me. Here, the students, the night life downtown was just hysterical, it
was great.
HS: Were there any teachers that stick out in your mind as really helping you
move on throughout college and what you ended up doing afterward?
GH: Ya know, there were a lot. I still remember Bob Mahoney was head of I
think biology, and head of the department. And then Roy Myers at the time
was here. And they were great, fully accessible. At the time I was not your

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typical student by any stretch and they put up with me and were
encouraging and they were great.
Why weren't you the typical student?
Well I think probably one of the examples was I worked two-to-three jobs
when I was here because I had to make ends meet. As part of that, when I
graduated from Skidmore I had a pretty high GPA fortunately and had a
pretty rigorous schedule with the double major and a minor and so on. So
the logical thing to do was to apply to medical school. And at the time it
was pretty competitive at the time to get in, I think it was roughly twelve
applicants for every one acceptance so they had said, 'ya know where are
you applying' and I said 'I'm not applying, I've always wanted to see how
good a skier I could be, so I'm going to go out in Colorado and teach skiing
and race full time and see what I can do'. And ya know so I think most of
the people would shake their head and in fact one of the faculty members
said 'you'll never get into medical school'. And ya know Roy and Bob
Mahoney said, 'look, totally get it and ya know it's a bit of a risk, but you
need to do what you think's best and ya know, go for it'
Were your friends at Skidmore also naysaying?
Oh no I think they were all, they said 'great, go for it'
and were they all also in the same, bio-chem sphere or from sports, or
ballet?
Ya know, it was such a small campus of 2,000-or-so and only I think about
200-or-so guy, actually when I left it was maybe like 300. I think I had
friends across the different environments. There were only I think twelve
biology/chemistry majors at the time on campus and I think almost all of
them were women, probably statistically. So I had friends who were taking
english studies and all sorts of other things, so it was a pretty diverse group.
For example, my roommate who only stayed a semester was in fine arts and
became a fine arts painter, ya know still makes his living today in
Connecticut and has had a lot of very high priced paintings that he's done
that've been accepted, but he decided after six months he really just wanted
to paint, but still we've stayed in touch and he's a great guy.
So what was your average week like between classes and skiing and hockey
and two jobs?
One of the things I learned was I actually do better on almost all measure
for me, including happiness and certainly academics, when I was
scheduled. So I'd say during the busiest parts of the year which was winter
for me, I would typically have a pretty full day of class because science
classes start early in the morning with labs and things and when I finished
up with them, a typical, I'd play a sport so say, we'll say late in the season

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maybe before winter, we'd still have soccer that'd be four to five-thirty. By
the time we got up to the dining room it was about ready to close, we'd all
pile in and eat dinner quickly and then I'd go to the library from six to ten I
think was my routine and just really study and then, again the drinking age
was eighteen, to reward ourselves, we'd hop in the car and zip downtown
for a beer at Tin and Lint or Harold J which was a big bar then. Barclays
was pretty big later on. So we'd have a beer, back in bed by 11, go to
sleep around 11:30 or so, wake up and do it all over again.
And what was your typical nightlife on the weekend?
The weekends for me was pretty much when I bartended and waited tables
so for me the busiest weekend would be - and some weekends I just played,
but mostly I was working - when I was working at the restaurant after class,
I'd be there at 4 to set up. I'd wait tables from 4 to 10 and then I'd get out of
there and I'd go to one of the bars and then I'd bartend at Harold J's from
about 10:30, 11, till about 4 A.M. when they closed and then I'd get back,
maybe take a quick nap, shower then I'd go up to West Mountain, teach
skiing Saturday and then I'd come back, usually wasn't waiting tables and
I'd go back and bar tend again from 11 till 4AM. And then Sunday I'd sleep
in.
That's a schedule.
It was, it was, but when you're young you know, you can do it.
Did you do that all four years?
Pretty much, you know it changed a little here and there over the years but I
pretty much had two or sometimes three jobs, part time, just piecing them
together.
And do you feel like you were able to learn in your jobs to help
academically or things academically to help your jobs at all?
Ya know I think so in a bit because it taught you the basics like show up on
time, ya know, be responsible, fundamentally do the right thing. So I think
so, ya know Skidmore really I thought was a highly ethical place, for a
better term, people were trying to do the right thing.
Did you study abroad?
I didn't.
What made you choose to stay on campus?
I don't think they had many abroad programs at the time. And my academic
schedule was so packed that I don't think, if I remember right, it would have
really worked for me to go abroad to get the biology/chemistry
requirements and the business requirements that I had I didn't have many
electives open.
And did you have one go-to best friend?

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GH: Ya know, it probably changed, well it did change a bit over time. The first
was my head resident a guy named Allan Braunstein, so one of the earliest
guys. And he was a great guy and he was classic open door policy so his
apartment, the head resident apartment of course was pretty big and it was
like Grand Central Station, so he was a great guy and later his brother
actually transferred in from BU or BC, I can't recall, and he became a good
friend too, Ron Braunstein.
HS: What made you so close to these guys?
GH: Ron and I played hockey together, just in general they were involved and
organizers. Allan Braunstein being a head resident organized everything;
we had a water festival at the time, I'm not sure if it still goes on. He was a
big skier. We actually had a ski rope tow when I came in fact. So we would
take a few quick runs down there, it was pretty small but we would ski over
there. And we were just involved in all the antics like going downtown was
again a big part of campus life here. Thursday night was one of the more
interesting nights, you would go down to a bar that, if I understand right
was the one portrayed in Animal House where they showed the guys in the
road trip and go into this bar with a couple of girls from a college. Well the
guys are coming supposedly from Dartmouth in real life and it's Skidmore
girls that they meet up with and the bar that they go into used to be called
the Golden Grill and it was a predominately blacks or African Americans
during the week if you would. And Thursday night for some reason at
midnight - I think the cover became free or they had some beer special that at midnight it would all change, so all the Skidmore people would pour
in, which at that time was predominately pretty homogenous white,
Caucasian class. And it got to be the point that the bartenders that the
Golden Grill - we used to call it the Golden Griddle - would call it white
night. And looking back it was probably politically incorrect but it was
literally as much as you saw in Animal House. You saw lots of town people
who were not Skidmore people dancing with Skidmore girls there were
African American guys with white upper middle class Skidmore girls, and
it was hysterical, everyone was relaxed and had a lot of fun.
HS: And this was an every Thursday night thing?
GH: Pretty much. I might have the night wrong at this point but I think so.
Tuesday night was Tin and Lint, ten cent or nickel beers; hard to look back
on that. Wednesday night, I can't remember what that was. But Thursday
night I'm pretty sure was Golden Grill white night and it would just go on
from there.
HS: And so as you went through the years was there anything you wished you
did differently?

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GH: I wish I'd spent more time getting to know other people better. You know
we were all busy and as I mentioned my schedule kept me pretty busy but I
remember feeling a little uneasy about coming back to reunion and thinking
'what was it going to be like' and 'how many old friends will show up'. And
some friends show up and that's great, but what I've found out at one of the
early reunions was that I actually met people from my class that I barely
knew. And I might have known their face but almost didn't know their name
or might have known their name, and when I had a chance to finally sit
down and talk with them, no surprise they're great people; really smart,
really kind, great people. And I thought, 'man I wish I got to know them
when I was in college'.
HS: And as you were approaching graduation, did you and your friends feel
optimistic about post graduation, post college world?
GH: I think there was probably both, but I think in a way, for me, I was pretty
optimistic. I think we were so dumb we didn't know what we don't know.
So I think we felt pretty much like, 'look, we got a great education behind
us, we're healthy, we've got the ability and the tools to go out and really do
something'. I wasn't quite sure what it was going to be, I didn't know at the
time that I would apply to medical school, I didn't do that until years after I
came back and worked in admissions so I really didn't know how things
were going to turn out but I think I felt optimistic overall.
HS: What was it like being on the other side of Skidmore, going from a student
to an employee?
GH: It was great, it really was great. It was like working at a country club in a
way I realized one day, in that I was just a few years older, I came back
after I had ski'd for a few years and had one other job. It was still the same
dean who had accepted me and she said, 'look, you really know Skidmore,
you'll be a great asset et cetera' and I remember the time, because I was so
naive that I probably shouldn’t have said this but at the time there were
rumors that Skidmore was lowering its standards for men because they
wanted to get co-educational more quickly. So I think it was probably
inappropriate in the interview me saying, 'I want to be clear though, I'm not
gonna accept students if I read their folders, or recommend acceptance, for
students who are sub par'. And I was so refreshed, she said, 'no, we are
holding men to the exact same standard as women, and we're in this for the
long haul and we want to build a thriving long term campus'. So being on
the other side of the coin was refreshing in kind of the same sort of ethical
environment from professors in doing the right thing and students as well
and the same thing I saw in the administration. And you know they weren't

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perfect, none of us are perfect, but they really had their hearts in the right
place.
So what is it like now seeing that there are 2500 kids up from 2000, it's a
60/40 split, how does that feel looking back from where you're coming
from?
It does feel great in many ways. I mean we had some special experiences
that can't be repeated because it was the time, someone, sometimes it was
the ratio that made certain things, I don't think would happen anymore in a
positive way. But I think looking now, change is right the only constant in
life, and Skidmore has changed for the better. It's academically stronger
than when I was here - even though it was a strong school. It's got many
many more sports, it's hopefully better endowed, its got tremendous
facilities, I think it's got a great vision. SO I'm proud, it's a great college,
and I'm very glad I came here and it gave me the tools to be a constant
student so thats probably the best tools that it gave me, to be a constant
student. That's what I see when I come here, is that students are learning
how to learn and be a lifelong student.
And if you meet someone today that is thinking about going to Skidmore,
what would you tell them?
Yea I would certainly recommend it. In fact I've got a daughter in high
school, I don't know where she'll go, it'll be her decision, but yea I used to
be an interviewer, an alumni interviewer. I think for the right person it's a
great school. I think the question a number of people get is, 'what can you
do with a liberal arts education?', and my view is the reciprocal, almost
what can't you do with a liberal arts education? When you think about, I
think it's not so important what you come out of Skidmore with in terms of
your degree, but I think if it teaches you to be that constant constructive,
inquisitive person to realize that learning doesn't end when you leave your
undergrad or even your grad degree, goes on forever. I'm not sure if that
was a hyperbole for that example, but I think Skidmore really instilled in
me, I have three degrees, two masters and a doctorate and that's partly how
I'm hardwired but Skidmore really encouraged me to keep learning. I think
I did three or four, four fellowships after that and ya know I think I'll
continue to go on learning until they put me in the ground.
What are those degrees in?
I'm a physician so I have an M.D., and then I have a masters in Health Care
Services Research which is kind of a combination of how health care
systems work; epidemiology, statistics. And then I have an MBA from
Wharton in Health Economics.

�Hess	

12

HS: And when you were a freshmen did you ever imagine yourself where you
are now?
GH: Not at all. In fact I really thought seriously about being a full time bartender
forever. It seemed liked a great lifestyle and in fact one of the guys from
town I worked with who was ancient at the time - he was in his thirties basically said, 'do this for life, it's great. When I go home, I go home' There
were a lot of plusses, so I had no idea where I was going to head.
HS: Do you have any anecdotes about a time that the liberal arts mentality
directly affected how you thought about something that came up while you
were getting your masters degree or in your career that had you not had the
liberal arts education you would not have been able to approach the same
way?
GH: Ya know I'm not sure if this is directly on point with kind of your question
but ya know maybe. And maybe it's a bit in the way I'm hardwired, but I
think Skidmore encouraged or allowed that. So maybe a good example is
when I left Skidmore, although I wasn't happy 100% of the time with
everything that happened here I really thought my money was well spent,
their money was well spent, they gave me a great education, faculty were
dedicated to us and teaching was the primary role of the instructors and
professors. And when I went to medical school years later which was a lot
more expensive and presumably a lot more competitive I really had high
expectations that this is going to be the best experience I've ever had. And I
would say that I was almost aghast at how poorly I thought the educational
system was in medical school. So I guess my point is, it lead me to do two
things that were pretty unusual even for my medical school classmates at
the time. One was I got a grant from the American Medical Association that
allowed me to do almost any constructive project over the summer between
my first and second year and I wrote a literature-based review on teaching
principles and teaching techniques and I even talked to some of the teachers
here, but I wrote a pretty constructive but scathing review of how the
medical school educational system was set up and why it was so
dysfunctional and why it was a poor set up for teaching our future
physicians and the school did not like it to say the least. They literally stuck
it in a drawer.When I went to the office to see, and I asked the dean if he
had read it and he said, 'yes i did', he pulled out a drawer, showed me the
paper and said, 'and this is where it's going to stay'. So I think in part it in
encouraged me to constructively question things and not just to complain
but to propose constructive solutions and in fact thats what I did, I think, in
that review. I think the other thing it did to do was to be a little non
conventional, so in medical school I felt the school was so poor in terms of

�13

Hess	

HS:
GH:
HS:
GH:

HS:
GH:

HS:
GH:
HS:

GH:

its instruction it was mostly just memorization that I actually got a job full
time again, but I got a job as a financial planner and I would pretty much
not attend class at medical school for the first two years because it was just
memorization and I would go off and do my job, go home at night and
memorize the text and come back and take my tests and progress on. Really
until your third year when you're seeing patients, yea you could be taking it
anywhere. So I think if it wasn't for Skidmore, I'm not sure where I would
have really had the confidence to do that.
And if you could go back and tell yourself as a freshmen one word of
advice, what would it be?
Enjoy
And did you have any regrets? Other than not meeting more people?
Other than that, really not, I think I was one of those really fortunate kids in
college that at the time there were some college colleagues who really
weren't happy they were just marking their time ya know handing in their
homework, their parents sent them here, they felt like they needed to get a
degree and ya know they really were just marking time. But now I think I
was one of those fortunate, probably the majority who said, 'you kidding?
this is incredibly great, I've got a place to sleep every night, I've got great
food, I've got a job, I've got lots of friends, I mean what could be better.' It
was a great environment I would say 95% of the time. It felt like we were
living the dream.
And looking back is there anything you're happy has remained the same at
Skidmore from then all the way until now?
Since I'm not here day-to-day it's a little hard to say yes, for sure, but I get
the same spirit of the college is really dedicated to the students and I think
that's the primary way it should be. I'm a senior fellow at Penn, I'm the
faculty there, I'm a faculty at Drexel College of Medicine and I've been to
many institutions for the degrees as I've mentioned, so I've seen other
colleges first hand and they don't all operate that way. So I'm really
impressed that Skidmore, again, I think is really focused on the students
and I think that it's primary mission and how it should be.
What about the opposite, is there anything that you wish was not still
around?
No I don't think there's much I could add?
So maybe to wrap up if there's just any last stories that you want to share
about something that happened at Skidmore or something that happened
downtown?
Well you know, there were a lot of fun times that we put it in context
because most of the students here were studying hard and doing

�Hess	

14

academically well but there's no question that we had a social life, um so I
guess one of the funnier times I do remember was that when spring
vacation would roll around, it was a big deal everybody wanted to take off
and either go to Florida or go someplace else to get some sun, it's a pretty
cold winter up here, lots of snow. So given that whole feverish environment
you'd see on probably a barely 50 degree day with the sun out there would
be girls in their bathing suits and guys in their bathing suits behind the
dorm, I can't remember the name of the dorm, but trying to lay down on the
ground so the wind wouldn't freeze them to death trying to get some base
tan before they went to Florida. And then it was usually right before the
spring break but it was also for the kids who couldn't afford to go on spring
break or just couldn't logistically, we would have these unbelievable beach
parties downtown. So the one I remember probably the best was at a bar
that's not there anymore called Barclays, it was an old bank that's not a
store downtown. And myself and some of the other employees there went
out to the dump - the illustrious dump - and we got a bathtub and we found
a plug at the hardware store, put it in the bathtub. And a lot of the places
had a cover charge at the time and that night cover charge was you brought
in liquor and we put in sour mix and some liquor but everybody who came
into the door would poor their liquor into the bathtub and of course the
concoction got more and more odd and more and more potent as the night
wore on. So - and you had to come in beach attire - at the end of the night,
it had a very high bar because it was the teller spots, and on top of that bar
just spontaneously people put on of the bar stools and people eventually
began climbing on top of the bar stool, standing on top of that so you were
a good 15 to 20 feet and fortunately with the right crowd, and the right
music, the DJ, the people were doing Acapulco bar diving where they
would dive off the bar stool into the crowd - people knew you were coming
- and people would hopefully catch you before you hit the ground. So it
was just a hysterical, between the bathtub concoction and the Acapulco bar
diving, it was just one of those parties you just shook your head at and said,
you know this will just never be recreated.

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                    <text>Ladd

1

Interview with Bill Ladd by Harry Sultan, Skidmore College
Saratoga Memory Project, Skidmore College, NY June 1st, 2018

Harry Sultan: Who are you?
Bill Ladd: Better question. Like, why don't we try... you know, I have so many
stories, just you need to be more direct.
HS:

Okay, let's just start, if you could introduce yourself.

BL:

Sure, my name is BIll Ladd, I'm class of '83 and I am a trustee on Skidmore's
Board of Trustees.

HS:

Where are you from?

BL:

I'm originally from Wayne, Maine, 04284. And I live in, currently, Framingham
Massachusetts.

HS:

What does it feel like to be back at Skidmore?

BL:

I'm here a lot. I love it, um I was just here two weeks ago for the trustees meeting
and commencement but this is nice because I'm with my classmates. And it's a
great, we've just have always had a great class. So I love seeing not only my
classmates but also the people I encountered my six years on the alumni board as
chair of reunions so I would come every year and meet - oh, and I also called
every single alum who had a reunion, and that's 29,000 people and I started with
my 8th grade teacher Mrs. Jane Chilcott.

HS:

Even if you come back so often, is there one thing you look forward particularly
for coming back to Skidmore?

BL:

Well first of all, the campus is georgious; but it's always the people, because the
people make the college. And from every spectrum of groundskeeping, - they call
it campus safety now, but for me it'll always be campus security - to everybody,
it's just a great place to be. I mean literally, it changed my life, and I owe
Skidmore my life. It's always great.

HS:

Was there one specific moment at Skidmore that you felt like was really pivotal in
changing your life?

�Ladd

2
BL:

There are so many. Skidmore; I just had breakfast with a couple of my professors
and they always raised the bar just a little bit higher than I ever could touch. And
they brooked none of my charms which - I can be pretty charming - but um, and I
owe them that, because they always taught me to do my very best and in fact, the
late and great Phyllis Roth used to say, "is this your very best work?" and I'd have
to roll my eyes and just "ugggggh no". And she'd say, "okay, you have until 5
o'clock to make it better", and I'm like 'okay'. And that has lasted me all my life.

HS:

What kind of classes were you taking with these great professors?

BL:

Um English, Psychology, History - Tudor History. I just saw my professor, Pat
Lee, and literally she's just phenomenal. Susan Cress, um Joanna San Grando, of
course I was a theater major so I would say Caroline Anderson, you know
instilled in me, real pre-professional standards and yea, I will always be in debt to
them.

HS:

So what was your average week like?

BL:

(laughs) Psychotic. As a theater major we were just happy to see the sun, cause
we were always - if you weren't in class, you were in rehearsal, or getting ready
for rehearsal or in performance and it was just non stop, so. There's a story of my
senior year, I was just running like a gerbil on a treadmill and I get this letter from
Academic Advising and I though 'oh noooo'. And I'm standing there in Case
Center staring at Ladd Hall which was named for my grandparents and I'm
thinking, 'how do I tell my grandparents I'm getting kicked out my senior year?'.
So I sucked it up and I opened it and it said, 'congratulations, you've made dean's
list' and I'm like 'get out of here, that can't happen'. And I went up to Academic
Advising, and they said 'no, here're your grades' and I'm like, 'how did that
happen? I don't know'. So that was a good moment too.

HS:

So is there any feeling, explain what it must feel like to go back into that place
where you spent so much time as a student and know that after all those years you
made Dean's List.

�Ladd

3
BL:

Yea, you know I never thought of myself as a good student. But it was just, every
corridor has a memory and I think about how I grew as a person, my classmates,
both who are here and not here anymore and just like, I never saw myself as a
trustee, and here I am a third generation trustee which is kind of weird; it's kind of
like getting kicked up to the grownups table at thanksgiving. You're there and
you're like, 'am I really supposed to be here?' but the answer is yes, I am. But it's a
really humbling feeling because I served the college and the students and I have
the kids, I meet as many kids as I can and I ask them to call me either Bill or
Uncle Bill but if you call me Mr. Ladd, I'll slap the taste out of your mouth.
C'mon, let's get away from that because when you have your name on a couple of
buildings people can get kind of freaked, so I'm like, 'everybody breathe. And
unclench. All is well'. I'm just paying it forward.

HS:

And when you walk around campus all these times you've come back, is there one
place that really evokes--

BL:

There're so many. Kimball, my freshman dorm and the pantheon of champions, is
always wonderful. It's, I just take the time, you know when I drive up onto
campus, especially as a trustee they don't allow you to have a whole lot of free
time so I just look and take it all in, the green, the quad, it's definitely georgious. I
think about, we used to always have to perform in the field house, course now you
have a theater - not that I'm bitter - but I spend so much time in Colton House
where Alumni Affairs is, and in North Hall where Advancement is and it's just,
you know, I'm really honored to be able to come back in the capacity that I am
and be the leader that I am, which is something I'm always trying to work with.

HS:

Do you remember your first night in Kimbal?

BL:

I do. When I pulled up in my orange Volkswagon Rabbit diesel. The first two
people I saw were Jim van Law and Mark Venter and I remember going and
meeting my roommate for the very first time who, spoiler alert, teaches here now
- Peter McCarthy. Country mouse, city mouse, it was kind of like that. And it was
just, yea, we all just kind of gathered and went to the dining hall, which is

�Ladd

4
lightyears in difference from the palace that you have now. I don't want to hear
nobody complain about no food cause it was not like that back in the day. And we
just all coalesced.
HS:

And did you ever for a second think, as a freshmen back then that this is where
you'd be now.

BL:

(laughs) Oh sure! Not hardly, are you kidding? I was just happy to graduate and
then it was like, you know, it was just not even on my radar. Just wasn't.

HS:

And so other than some theater classes and some english classes, what other
activities did you take part in?

BL:

Do you know anything about being a theater major? Hello? It's um, I remember
all the movies on campus, you know they had a lot of horror pictures back in the
day like when a stranger calls and the tag line is - the original, not the horrible
remake - it's, 'have you checked the children' and so what we would do is, after
the movie, we would wait about an hour and then we had extension phones in
each of the suites around campus and we would call ya know, Penfield which is
an all female dorm and somebody would pick up the phone and we'd say, 'have
you checked the children', and you'd hear screaming, and we were like "yes, yes!
Good stuff!", we'd get really immature stuff like that which I'm very - I wear with
a badge of pride. Dressing up as Frankenfurter for Rocky Horror Picture Show,
um it was just a lot of work in theater and going downtown, I wasn't really a bar
guy because we didn't have time. You know? But we did go to the Exec which
had amazing steak fries, that's where the theater crowd hung out. We went to the
rafters - disco, woot woot - good stuff. Yea, but it was wonderful, and we get to
talk about these situations with our classmates who are here at reunion which is
nice.

HS:

Did you study abroad?

BL:

No I did not. I couldn't figure that out in my head; how I could do that and then
come back in and get plugged in for the spring shows, if you had left in fall. My
son did, he figured that out, but I did not. So, but I lived abroad, it was okay.

�Ladd

5
HS:

So what was your senior year like, wrapping things up did you have a senior
project or senior performance?

BL:

It was a play, it was you know, coming to grips with, well what're we going to do
after graduation and during my - in 1980, I did my first movie while I was still a
student here. And back in the day, in the theater department movies were looked
down upon - it's all about the theater - well I like movies, I like TV, so just trying
to figure out what my next steps were but also, when I graduated I was there with
like my dad who was a trustee, my grandmother who was the very first alum to be
a trustee and I'm thinking, 'okay'. And of course my amazing class, and it was just
trying to be able to put those pieces together and, but I'll tell ya that senior year
went by in a snap. When you tell the kids, 'look, just stop, look around, try to be
present, remember this moment right now because it'll be gone' and all of a
sudden, they're in May and they're walking up in front of you.

HS:

So if you could talk to your freshmen year self right now, what would you tell
him?

BL:

That's a great question. Um, I don't know, just be you. And thankfully I was, but
just relax cause, well I am the first openly gay trustee at Skidmore, and I didn't
come out until I was 25. But at that point it wasn't really, there wasn't really the
atmosphere to be okay with that. So I would just say, just you know, as my
grandmother used to say, 'you don't always have to tell all you know'. Which is
one of my, I have a collection of sayings from her. I would just say, you know,
'continue to be you' and, 'you are enough'. That's what I tell my son all the time.
Sometimes he listens, sometimes he doesn't.

HS:

Did you have a core group of friends?

BL:

I was very blessed to have a lot of friends in varying degrees, I mean different
majors and it was just a good group of, I mean I'm still here, one of my
sophomore roommates, we were in the only sophomore triple on campus, um two
art history majors and a theater major - hilarity ensues - you know, some of the
things we did. You know we just collected friends. And um, we were never in the

�Ladd

6
popular crowd, and I still couldn't figure out how that happened, but um these
many years later we're making new friends, ya know we're not the same people as
we were when we were students, thank god. Some of us have grown up and gone
very different ways, I mean, I was a theater major, so naturally after 35 years in
motion pictures I'm a pastor. Yes. Gods got a sense of humor. But no, that was the
great thing, I didn't have time for sports, though I should have played tennis but I
couldn't figure out a way to get another couple of hours in the day. Just wasn't
gonna work.
HS:

Could you bring it back to that sophomore year triple for a little bit?

BL:

Oh god it was great. Well we had a really sucky number, and we were like, okay
what do we do? Well there's one way to keep on campus, we should become a
triple, we kind of looked at each-other. We all lived in Kimbal, and we said, okay
let's do this. And then we had, we got our number, we got our room, and I chose
the modular unit, it was my little perch. And it was really terrific. We had such a
great time. There's a famous comedy album called, When You're in Love the
Whole World is Jewish and we would play that nightly and we would just laugh
ourselves to sleep. It was just so much fun. We did have some, there were some
romantic exploits of my roommates that were interesting, but you know it was just
terrific, and our other roommate who cannot be here, he lives in the next town
over from me in Massachusetts and so that's really great. Yea we were just in, they
were like "they put you three in a triple?". Well that's what triple means, three.
Um, and it's just the stuff of legend, we would terrorize parents during parents
weekend by opening up a window and going, 'Mommy? Mom, I'm lost' and
watching the, ah so good. So naturally the ministry called. It's one of those things,
why did they put them together. And 35 years later, we are still very close so that's
terrific.

HS:

So what was a normal Friday night for you?

BL:

No such thing, they all kind of blended. Are you in rehearsal, okay you go through
classes and then literally you had like maybe five or ten minutes to gobble down

�Ladd

7
your meal and then run back to rehearsal and then, and that's, I do have a bad
eating habit because of Skidmore. I can eat a meal in five minutes which is not
always good. But, yea it's like 'what's going on this weekend? What're the
movies? Anything good?". Or sometimes we'd drive out and, you know, to the old
Pyramid Mall and see horror pictures like the Fog - that was really great - and the
original Friday the 13th, you know, always fun. American Warewolf and yea, it
was just, kind of one of those moments. Back in the day, McDonalds used to have
the shamrock shakes and we would go downtown cause thats where McDonalds
was, and get a shamrock shake and would say, "look! it's the exorcist" and go
"bleaah". Again, not the high mark of taste in humor, but we were young and
stupid. Um, that would be, we would make our own fun but it was, we spent a lot
of time on campus ya know, the whole bars and drinking thing just wasn't mine.
HS:

So did you ever interact with the locals and the local businesses?

BL:

Always, cause you know, when you did go downtown that's just who you were
with and coming from a very small town you really don't want to show yourself
off not to be a good neighbor, let's just put it that way. And in fact, Steve Sullivan
who's class of '78, he'd graduated before but he was always very connected to
Skidmore and owns Old Bryan Inn, and Longfellows and connected me to the
folks in town and so I just always looked at Saratoga as an extension of Skidmore
and really great relationships. And I still do, I really love coming back, I think
Saratoga is just an amazing place.

HS:

Are there any establishments that you went to in college that you look forward to
coming back to now

BL:

Well a lot of them are closed. Theres The Parting Glass, always was great. Of
course Old Bryan Inn, hello, nat'(urally). But a lot of the, Mrs. Londons, a lot of
the places have since gone by the wayside because that's what happens as time
passes. And oh, sorry OBI still has the best french onion soup. Old Bryan Inn. It's
in a little crock and it's got that molten cheese over the top, forget it that's just,

�Ladd

8
forget it. That's all I have to say to my classmates, they're like "oh my god, so
good".
HS:

Is there anything, outside of academics that really stuck with you as a life lesson
that stuck with you from being at Skidmore?

BL:

I have to go back to 'Is this your very best work'. Because, in the industry, motion
picture industry, no one is going to ask you that. It is that personal kind of
standards and scholarship that you always carry. And you know if something is
your very best. You know if you've kind of shined something on and it's just not
right. And of course I would pair that with what my grandfather said, 'there's two
ways of doing something, the easy way and the right way' and in this world you
have your word and your name. No one will ever ask you that, but you know. And
so all those cobbled together and that has lasted me all these years because it's
just, you are yourself and if you don't hold yourself to higher standards, no one
else will.

HS:

Is there one thing from back during Skidmore that you wish you could change?

BL:

Yea. I wish I hadn't contemplated suicide my freshmen year. It was a very dark
place you know, being in the closet, in fact this is the last thing - I don't have
many more closets to come out of - but I just talked about this in the latest board
of trustees meeting, and I did. And Skidmore saved my life, I mean literally my
house counselor, my RAs got me into counseling and that actually started the
process of me coming out. But I wish I hadn't had done that, um I wish I hadn't
pretended but that's, that's where I was, and that's where the country was at the
time so now, thankfully that served me to be first of all, me, and like I said, the
first to be openly gay trustee which I don't really think much about and it's like,
"oh, that's right, I guess I am" but like, well you know, they look like me, and I'm
like "well you know, looks can be deceiving" and it allows other people to tell
their stories. So in a roundabout way, I hope I've answered your question.
Something like that.

�Ladd

9
HS:

Do you think Skidmore today is more of a safe place for young men and women
to be themselves?

BL:

I think it is. You know, that's a journey, it's not like a destination, once we're there,
we're there, because as the world changes you know, this environment has to
change in being reflective of that change and having a place where people can be
themselves authentically 100% and that's a goal and it's a continuing process that
the trustees are very aware of - excuse me - and the college is very aware of. Yea,
it's remarkable.

HS:

And is there anything you hope does change with Skidmore?

BL:

I hope we get more endowment money? Sorry, just you know. I want to see - I'm
not a big fan of the word diversity, because I think it's kind of limiting, or like the
word multicultural, I like the word reflective - the reflective of the world, because
I want to be in that world, I don't want to be in just a very anglo-centric
environment, cause frankly it bores the teeth out of me and that's not where I've
lived. I've lived in the world, and I like the world being reflected. In fact Lynda
Jackson Chalmers and I were sitting next to each-other at commencement and
said, 'ya know' she's class of, oh golly, nineteen seventy-, I want to say nineteen
seventy-one or seventy-three, and she said, 'I remember when, you know I first
came on the board, there were maybe twelve students of color and as we sit there
and as we sat in this commencement - which was cold, and rainy, and wet - we
had lots of time to just huddle together and there was just wave after wave of
children - sorry, they're children - they're grownups, in quotes. But kids from Asia
and African countries and it was just so enlightening and heartening that it's like,
imagine, and then she goes "I don't even count anymore because there are so
many kids" and I just said, 'ya know, imagine the courage it takes to not just go to
a different state, go to a different country or continent. And these kids from China
and the Asian countries, as well, and that's very in-strata of me, the Asian
countries as well as the African countries'. All I had to do was come from Arizona
and look what they've done and look who they are, and we were just sitting there

�Ladd

10
welling up with pride. And also humility and gratitude that these kids felt safe
enough to come to Skidmore and just rock the place, so it was a very big moment
- still we were freezing to death, but there we go.
HS:

And when you were going up on that stage to graduate, what was the world like
that you were going into

BL:

Let's see, '83? Ronald Reagan. It was the early 80s and it was a surreal moment.
You know materialism, at least in my life, it was all about stuff and achievement
rather than being the person and it took me a while to figure that out so I just, ya
know, right after I graduated I started getting work on All My Children, which
was a soap opera back then. But it wasn't about doing good acting work, and I
didn't get that until later and I went, 'Oh, okay', I was ill-prepared but that was
because of my own development. Yea, it was a different time but I'm glad I did it.

HS:

Was there, amongst your friends, was there general optimism about the prospect
of post college?

BL:

I don't really, I think we all just though, sure we can do anything cause you know
when you're young and arrogant, 'hey, you know, I can do that'. And that's what
we did. We were just talking about that actually last night, there were two
classmates of mine who were making $11,000 out of college and they're one
dream was to make their age in thousands and you know, we just thought well we
can do that and it was, you know, I guess that's kind of the Skidmore motto, 'hell,
I went to Skidmore, I can do anything' or that's always been my motto. But you
figure it out, and I think that's um, there was the optimism. There certainly wasn't
the divisiveness that is, well back in the old days you know Russia was a
communist country, not colluders anyway. Just, things have changed and its a
different environment now.

HS:

So if you meet someone today who's thinking about going to Skidmore

BL:

Well yea I'll interview them. Yea.

HS:

What are some of the things, if they ask you "should I go", what's your boiler
plate

�Ladd

11
BL:

I don't really have a boilerplate. I grill them pretty hard because I love this
college, look ya know, if you're someone who wants to be a member of this world,
a conscious member and who's willing to take risks in their education to really
stretch themselves, then this is the place to go. If you're looking for a backup
school, bye bye, no no. You know just go somewhere else. But if you really want
to be a stuck in citizen, then this is where you want to be, cause it will change you
in ways you cannot foresee and you can't study for it. You can't take a test for it.
And just get ready, cause you think 'yup, this is what I'm going to do, I'm going to
business school, business school, business school', and then ding, you're over here
doing something else, 'yes, I'm in environmental science, how did that happen?'
This is being prepared to being a conscious member of this planet and I think it'll
help to be, to have that liberal arts education because people change careers, not
jobs, at least nine times and baby you gotta be able to pivot cause if you ain't got
pivot you got diddly and that's the nicest thing I can say. And that's been the
hallmark of my life because of all the different careers that I've had and here, ya
know, when I think I can't be surprised anymore (laughs) I called the ministry, 'are
you fricking out of your mind', but you have to have, like all those skills? Trust
me I use my education a lot.

HS:

Can you give me an anecdote about how Skidmore has affected not just your life
in theater but your life as part of the ministry?

BL:

Oh absolutely, you have to be able to write. In fact I just finished my ordination
paper after a year and I defend it on June 21st so, you know - include prayers here
- but you have to be able to write and tell a story and that goes into crafting a
sermon, and mine are not only crafted pretty well but are under 15 minutes. You
go in, you make your point, you get the hell out, but also it looks at fundraising,
stewardship. Again, it's all about storytelling, how you tell that story. I also used
my filmmaking tools for not only for Skidmore, but also for the church. Because
it's about, not only reaching out to the church community but also to the wider
community. Again, it's story, it's communication, it's also being conscious of your

�Ladd

12
environment and in the world environment, psychology, sociology, economics,
publicity, vision, you know, and empathy, all those, it's just like, I use my
education every day.
HS:

I'm trying to be mindful of the time, but do you have any last just profound great,
unbelievably best stories from Skidmore?

BL:

I think that'll have to be in our volume 2, because I have a lot of stories. Some I
can share, and some I cannot.

HS:

Can you share one?

BL:

It's like, 'be funny!' oh thanks, thanks for that. Um well, first day I walked on thet
set of Ghost Story, I was an extra with some lines that eventually got cut, I was
scared ridiculous. And then, cause it was January, it was twenty-below, yea, and
I'm like 'okay', just trying not to throw up and there is this famous actor, producer,
director, John Houseman standing outside and I have my first scene with him.
And I'm like, I wanted to die. And I just said, 'um Mr. Houseman, my name is Bill
Ladd, and I'm going to be working with you today, and it's a true honor' and he
kind of gave me a side look and I went 'oh crap, I'm done' and I said, 'I'm a theater
student here' and I said 'I'm a very devout member of your history and what you
have done.' He says, 'Like?' I said, 'well you produced The Bad and the Beautiful
with Lonna Turner and Kirk Douglas' and he said, 'Really?' and I said, 'yea I'm a
huge fan' but also 'Mercury Theater, it's I really admire you' and so it put a big
smile on his face, the ice was broken, cause you know frost was forming on our
limbs, and we sat down for the next couple of hours until they set up the shot and
started to work. And that's how I didn't have a heart attack on my first day in
motion pictures.

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                    <text>1

Roe-Raymond

Interview with Travis Roe-Raymond by Harry Sultan, Skidmore College
Oral History Project, Skidmore College, NY June 2nd, 2018
Harry Sultan: So if I could just have you introduce yourself.
Travis Roe-Raymond: My name is Travis Roe-Raymond and I was in the class of
2008 at Skidmore College.
HS:

Great, and what did you major in?

TRR: I majored in Religious studies
HS:

Now was that something you knew you wanted to major in before coming
to Skidmore?

TRR: I had no idea what I was going to study for, or major in when I came here,
but before I'd started in college I had started to learn more about yoga and
meditation and so when I was starting to figure out what I wanted to do it
was really just about taking different classes and so I really had no idea
going in and after - I want to say - maybe a semester or two I was like, you
know what I really like these classes.
HS:

You started yoga before Skidmore?

TRR: What's that?
HS:

You started taking yoga before Skidmore?

TRR: So I started, yea, I started doing you know meditation and stuff before I
even came to Skidmore. My father had gotten into it and that's how I
learned about it.
HS:

And where are you from that you were doing yoga

TRR: Yea, central New Jersey, so Princeton New Jersey area. Yea, yea.
HS:

So you came to Skidmore, decided to take a bunch of classes, could you
give me a short list of the different types of classes that you took?

TRR: Yea sure so I took, let's see. I took a religious studies course, a religion and
violence course - which was really fascinating because this was only a few

�2

Roe-Raymond

years after, um, the 9/11, so that was really fascinating. Um took courses on
religion and contemporary American society so that was on learning about
the Branch Dividians in Waco Texas and what makes a group a cult and
what makes a group not a cult um. I also took calculus. I also took, I took
an arts sculpture class the first year which I feel I don't have a creative bone
in my body and so I took that and it was really nice to do something very
different, it was the only class I took in that section. I took sociology
courses which I really really liked, that had a big impact. And I also took
some Psychology courses so really, ran the gamut on all sorts of courses.
HS:

And did you find by taking all these classes you could pull connections
between them throughout college?

TRR: Absolutely, it was very much interdisciplinary. And when I was doing the
religious studies major, the background of courses they wanted you to take
were very much grounded in interdisciplinary approach; so you know you
gotta learn about the major thinkers in psychology and sociology and these
other areas. So absolutely it was very much integrated and I loved that. It's
funny though after college the most challenging thing is people ask like
'what'd you study?' I was like 'religious study'. And they're like 'oh were
you trying to become like a religious leader or something?'. 'No no it was
purely academic' so you always have to explain that away.
HS:

And so you get to Skidmore, you don't know what you want to do, but do
you remember your first couple of days on campus?

TRR: The first few days were, I think for most folks it was such a big adjustment.
I remember really trying to get a lay of the land in terms of, everybody's
feeling each other out, you know they had a couple folks who would sort of
lead you through, 'Hey there's an event going on at the gym' or through
these different places, but I was really just trying to get a feel for where

�3

Roe-Raymond

everybody was and what they liked to do and how I could connect with
people. So it was definitely, you know you're out of your comfort zone as
it is for most and I just remember just trying to navigate that. I don't think it
was terrifying, but I don't think it was easy either and slowly over time it
became better.
HS:

And do you remember your actual first night? Did you hang out with your
roommate? Did you go out partying?

TRR: My first night, I want to say that there was a upperclassman who, I don't
know if they were assigned explicitly or not but they were, they took it
upon themselves to gather the new folks whether it was in Johnson Tower
or somewhere else and say 'Hey lets all hang out. We're gonna go down to',
I think we went down to the auditorium and saw some sort of performance
of you know dancers or something like that. And so that was really what the
first night was. I was really just in a flock of freshmen and going around
with them. And you know it was really nice, I think what was nice was the
leader, the person sort of guiding us around was of course very nice and
very open and that made it better and actually from that group there was
one or two folks that I actually stayed friends with.
HS:

And going through those three or four years did you have that sort of close
knit group of friends?

TRR: The, I had a little bit of a division and it was from freshmen, sophomore,
and then into junior year and then when I studied abroad; that was
somewhat of a line of demarcation. So previous to that there were a few
folks that I had befriended, ever since when I came back we sort of went
separate ways a little bit and of course before I went, studied abroad, there
were a few friends I was hanging out with after but that was a little bit of a
divider and I think the reason was because when I got back from study

�4

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abroad and maybe just going to study abroad, it made me realize 'oh my
gosh' you know, college is going to be over soon. Not too far off. And you
need think about the real world and whats going on and I remember that
just being a big mental shift. Because freshmen, sophomore year you're
really just trying to get into what is it to be in college, how am I relating to
other people, what do I want to study and learn about. But for me it was
never, Oh cause I'm going to use this in the real world. After study abroad I
was like, wait a second I really need to think about the real world?
HS:

Where did you study abroad?

TRR: I studied in Paris. And Jordana was in charge, Professor Dym and it was a,
it was actually a history department program that went over there and it was
great. She was studying things around travel in, I want to say 16th century
Europe or just medieval Europe. And so that was really the topic. You
weren't supposed to know a lick of French. I happened to know some
French and so when I got there I was sort of in this tweener group, I didn't
know no French but I also wasn't at the expert level that the French majors
were doing and so I had to sort of decide which groups I wanted to be
taking courses in and all that but that was a wonderful experience that I
think I'll never forget. Very powerful.
HS:

Is there one memory that really stuck out?

TRR: Yes um. Our professor instead of having a normal class which we were
supposed to that day, she took us um. You know she had a budget for us in
terms of when we could take trips and where would go and so our group of
maybe 10 students, she took us to a restaurant called Le Grande Vefour
which is right downtown Paris and it is one of the very fine dining you
know, three star Michelin restaurants - I don't know if it actually was - and
we went there for lunch. And you know, if you know any, going into a nice

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restaurant, lunch is a good way to get in because it's just cost effective but
even so we had this 8 course meal, with all these special dishes and things
to cleanse your palette in between and by the end of it you know thinking
how special that meal was, like I never, and never have since had had as
nice a meal as that. So that was a really special experience.
HS:

So you get back from Paris. You're back at Skidmore, you're thinking about
the real world. Is there anything from your trip to Paris by studying abroad
that you brought back with you to kind of help that transition?

TRR: In what sense?
HS:

Cause I feel like people when they go abroad, you're outside of the
Skidmore bubble, you're in a new city, it's a faux adulthood.

TRR: Yea exactly, well said.
HS:

So did you bring any lifestyle advice from your own experience

TRR: I think again it goes back to what I was saying before around realizing that
being outside of the Skidmore bubble and realizing, yea what do you want
life to look like outside, after school. What life do you want to have for
yourself? Where do you want to live? Not like I was harboring any thoughts
about living in France, but yea it did, it made me think about, 'Okay you
know I have only this much time left at school. This is what I'm studying
and majoring in um, how do I want to turn this into a career.' I think career
was really a big focus and coming out of the study abroad, it was
fascinating because France is interesting right I mean you go down the
street and it's very similar to being in America. There's parking signs and
people walking down the street, but you learn quickly that there are subtle
differences. And that, there's a whole history behind all the different things
that happened - the French revolution - all these different things that lead to
these subtle differences on the surface but then bigger differences in

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peoples beliefs underneath the surface and I think that had a profound
impact on how I was thinking about wanting to be in the world when I
came back. So I think that was another one.
HS:

And so looking back you think you would have told yourself; If you could
go back and tell yourself "do something different" or "definitely don't
change a thing" do you have any advice you would give your former self

TRR: I don't know if I, I don't think I would have told myself to go a different
path in terms of what classes I took. I was really grateful I took such a
breadth of classes. I always wanted to be the person that knew exactly what
they wanted to do and just drill deep into that area but as I've gone through
time it just doesn't happen that way, it just doesn't work that way. So I think
I would have said 'Hey, do what you were doing' I felt like I was able to
take advantage of things the way I wanted and maybe if anything, I might
have told myself, you know, 'stretch out a little bit more, try even some
other classes that you may never have taken the last time around'.
HS:

Are there any classes you remember not taking that you regret not taking--

TRR: Kind of wanted to? I would've liked to have taken a little more like art and
sculpture classes. Just that physical aspect of art. That would have been
really cool. Because it did have something of an impression on me when I
did the one and I remember in the Northwoods they wanted us to do some
sort of project in nature. So what I did was I took these stones and I made
what I believe is called a cairn. Which is sort of like this pyramidical shape
that you use to sort of mark a trail. And so I went out there and it took
weeks and weeks to build this small, not very big cairn. And that was a
process that I strangely really connected to and I was surprised that I had.
And so that kind of thing made me lead to, "gosh I would've loved to take
more art and sculpture classes"

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HS:

And so outside of academics were you part of any clubs?

TRR: I did, I was part of the Skidmore Cycling Club, believe it or not. So at the
time there were a few upperclassmen who had started this club and they
had gotten a formidable budget for it so we could really go through the
competitive collegiate cycling scene. And that was a great experience. I had
received an informal scholarship - it wasn't an official scholarship - to play
lacrosse at Skidmore and you know, about three quarters of the way into the
first year, my freshmen year, I was just burned out, I wasn't enjoying it. I
think just from years and years of playing the sport, it brought me a lot, but
I just - it was the middle of winters and I just decided after thinking about it
for weeks and weeks, I said I'm done, and I stopped it and so I was looking
for something else and cycling was a big thing. And I was also able to do
choir and sing and do that because that was something I'd done in
high-school and middle school and I still, though I'm not singing now that
is another thing that I did that I still enjoy doing.
HS:

So you sang in high-school, did you cycle in high-school?

TRR: I didn't cycle in high-school but I worked at a bike shop for like 8 years. SO
at the end of middle school, the local bike shop was looking for someone to
work for them and I started doing that. And that was a great process
because you know, yea you learn about bikes and all that stuff but that's a
big experience when you're, you know, an 8th grader, you're learning all
those skills of how to talk to people and how to work with people and that
was a really important experience in terms of learning how to problem
solve and learning how to work with people and understand what their
needs are and stuff like that. So yea I was a bike mechanic and that's how I
got around it, and then you know the Tour de France would come around
and you'd see Lance Armstrong winning these bike races and that lead to

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after, while I was doing lacrosse I was like "oh I would love to learn how to
do road biking" and that's kind of how it started.
HS:

So was biking a big part of your trip to Paris?

TRR: It was supposed to be. So I had my road bike all packed up in a special box
to bring over. And of course we took Air France over. And we went over.
And of course it didn't show up. And making phone calls and trying to get
in touch with them. I think it was two months into my three month stint in
Paris when we actually got it. And the only way I think we were even able
to get the bike found was luckily my father worked with some people at
some of these larger corporations who could reach out to Air France and
say 'hey, you gotta help'. I think. So it was very much just luck, finally
found it, finally got the bike when I was almost at the end of my trip and I
just remember how cool it was being able to ride my bike on the first time
ever to ride my bike on foreign soil. And in France which is kind of the
hallowed cycling sort of center of the universe so that was a really crazy
experience
HS:

And what was it like the scenery wise in Saratoga versus the cycling in
France?

TRR: I think, I only got to ride a little bit in France and I wasn't able to get
anything competitive, it was really just I'd just go out for little short rides
and so coming back senior year I was trying to race competitively in
college. And there was less support in the club. Some of the folks,
unfortunately there were some, there was a little bit of scandal where we
found out some of the founders were actually fabricating receipts to - they
were fabricating receipts that they had gone to races and spent all this
money that they'd never even gone to. So I heard that those folks got a slap
on the wrist and that was it, but I had to give a sworn affidavit to the police

�9

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and all this stuff so it was kind of a big deal. But anyways, I just found that
afterwards it was, yea I was trying to really enjoy my last year and so
cycling was a big part of that and I was also trying to see if some people
that were younger, coming up in Skidmore would get into the club as well.
There was actually one gentleman who ended up carrying the mantel and
doing some things here. But he took it I think in less of a racing direction
and took it more in a nonprofit, helping people get access to bikes direction.
And so that was the experience.
HS:

And is there anything at your time at Skidmore, you're really happy to see
is kind of the same?

TRR: Well coming back, it's nice to see that things look just aesthetically the
same. It's such a beautiful campus. And it's very idealic in that way. It was
nice to see that generally everything is how you left it; yes of course its
grown and they've put some new things here. You know one thing that was
really nice was to run into, to be able to see a former professor and that's
something that I feel like I'm really grateful to have the professors I've had
ten years ago are now chairs of their department here and it's been really
nice being able to connect with them. A few years ago I was dabbling with
the idea of graduate school in certain areas and possibly even doctoral
programs and they were a huge resource. Even though I hadn't talked to
them in six, seven years to be like "Hey, I'm reaching out about this" and
they were really great about giving me some really honest feedback about
"hey listen. What are you interested in. What are you looking to do in
graduate school. and these are our thoughts". So it's been nice to be able to
come back, talk with some people, walk around, you know, retrace your
steps a little bit. It's so funny how that never gets old. Everybody wants to
remember what it was like to, you know, have a certain memory when

�10

Roe-Raymond

somebody was, ya know, if somebody went to a party and got a little crazy
and you see them at the dining hall. All sorts of idiosyncratic stories like
that it's nice to see; walk through those areas and relive it so.
HS:

Has there been a spot on campus, a building you've seen or a place that
you've walked by that brought you back to when you were a student?

TRR: Case center. Just walking through there and just kind of, you know, the
scene, seeing people around on their computers going down - I don't know
if they still have it for students now, but they had mailboxes for us. And I
remember at the time, I think the biggest thing is just seeing what has
changed in the times. So I remember going to my mailbox and pulling out a
Netflix DVD that was in the envelope. Like it's amazing something as
simple as that has just changed so dramatically.
HS:

Is there anything that you wish would have changed since you graduated?

TRR: It's hard to say. I'd like to say that I was more integrated into the goings on
at Skidmore. I feel a little bit more like I hope that things are staying the
same in the sense of, my wife and I had very different experiences in
undergrad. She went to Rice University, went on to get her doctoral at
University of Michigan and then I never went to graduate school but for my
work I did do other certifications. And it was so funny how we had such a
different experience because she didn't do - I think the school she went to
was technically considered liberal arts but what I loved about here that I'm
happy stays the same, or I think stays the same is the sort of small class
environment and the ability for a professor to say "hey, read this, or go
through this information, we're going to come back in and talk about it" but
what the professor would do was he or she would facilitate it so they would
say "hey, what did you think" and stop and hope most people who read it
would then say "oh well I thought this" or "I thought that" and then the

�11

Roe-Raymond

professor would guide you, not try to, not take over the conversation but
guide you on "okay well tell me more about that?" or "what did other
people think about that?" and it just lead to these amazing conversations.
The ability to hear other peoples' perspectives without being, you know
sometimes you could enter the realm of things where people have different
backgrounds and it could be maybe a little offensive so I really appreciated
that. One thing that I'm worried about that I hope isn't changing, I think
there's been some really important changes you know with the MeToo
movement, and some of the new fears around discrimination, racism,
gender, sexism, things like that, and I hope that as that's all happening, I
hope that people are still given the space to kind of respectively give their
opinion even if it's not perfectly along party lines so to speak. Because one
thing I was hearing - so right now I'm a financial planner, so I work with
professors at all sorts of schools and one comment I was hearing from one
art professor down in New Jersey who was retiring, he was saying that, he
said "oh well you know unfortunately I've heard some comments that
professors now have to be very careful saying something that's even
seemingly benign because theres a lot more sensitivity to how it could be
interpreted". And obviously theres a line on what's right and wrong to do
but they did give me kind of some pause to think,"gosh I wonder how it is
now". So I just hope that there is that sense of hearing different perspectives
and being respectful to them
HS:

So is that not something that you had to worry about when you were a
student?

TRR: I just felt like the professors at Skidmore would, they would do a really
good job of saying, "okay I'm going to ask a question about something that
is controversial" especially I remember during the religion and violence

�12

Roe-Raymond

course. So we were trying to look at the steps that the - for the lack of a
better term - terrorists took when they crashed the plane into the World
Trade Center, and we were trying to look at it less from a, lets just straight
up demonize them, and more of a, okay if we're playing devil's advocate or
we're trying to understand their side, what do you see? And we were talking
about Osama Bin Laden and you know it's very easy, in that time it's very
easy to say well they're bad and they're horrible and that's all there is to it.
Well there's a lot more to it. It's just this aspect of the professor saying
"listen we need to look at these other perspectives because it's not good
enough to simply typecast somebody or some thing because you're not
going to understand as much" so we learned a lot more about the us versus
them language and the fact that Osama Bin Laden, as much as he did
horrible things and represented very negative things. He also was very
smart and had very, was very good at his rhetoric and how to shape ideas
and thoughts to his means, or his ends rather. So that was, those were some
valuable experiences.
HS:

And did any of these conversations drift out into social life or dorm life or
were your academic and social life completely separate?

TRR: Well they did in the sense that, when I was there - I was there from 2004 till
2008 - and so when I was there it was the presidential elections with John
Kerry and George W. Bush for a second term and that absolutely leaked out
all the time. So I remember in my religious studies class with Professor
Mary Stange talking about it, and obviously we're at a liberal arts school so
most - I don't know anybody who was actually for President Bush - but,
god you could just feel the energy on campus when George W. Bush wins
again. It's so interesting looking back on that now after what's happened in
2016 which truly paints an interesting juxtaposition. So yea that'd bleed out

�13

Roe-Raymond

a lot and we would talk about it. I don't know if I had super structured
social forums for us being like "hey, you know let's talk about the elections"
but it definitely leaked out.
HS:

And what about downtown life?

TRR: Downtown life, I was, it's funny, for me Skidmore was very much a bubble
even from the town a lot. I ended up working at a local bike shop, I worked
at the Saratoga Ice Rink. When the parents would come into town we'd be
able to go to a restaurant or something like that. I didn't have a terrible
amount of either community engagement or sort of interaction with the
downtown. Maybe I'd walk through town or something like this, but it
wasn't a whole lot; because it's just amazing how one, the academic things
that you're trying to take care of on Skidmore, for me, just kept me here.
And I like that, but it was also very insulating, you just kind of forget that
everything else is out there. So I didn't have a terrible amount of
interaction, probably the most was just biking in and out of town constantly
to go out on long rides with the group and things like that. But I didn't have
a huge interaction. The only thing was really Caroline Street, you know that
was the place where everybody went to kind of let loose and if you wanted
to, if you were of age and wanted to drink, and I remember the place, there
was a pizza place you'd get doughboys and I remember that being a big
thing.
HS:

And now that you're, when you found you were going to be coming back
was there any establishment in Saratoga that you were really looking
forward to going to?

TRR: Country Corner was big, that was big. I think just because when you come
back you remember it as amazing, and you come back and you're like
"alright this wasn't amazing" but it's still just that memory. So Country

�14

Roe-Raymond

Corner, Putnam Market was also another place I looked forward to going
to. So I'd say those were the two big ones.
HS:

Any last stories that you really want to tell?

TRR: I do remember. I do remember, I don't know what they were doing but there
was some sort of run that was happening outside Johnsson Park and I don't
know if this happens every year or what. And I wasn't participating in it, but
a group of folks, I don't know if they were part of the Wombats - the frisbee
team - or what, I don't know, but a group of folks decide that they're going
to strip down naked with running shoes on and go do a naked run. So I
don't know if that's down now but I just remember hearing it and just, I
thought it was absolutely hilarious. So.
HS:

Cool thanks so much.

TRR: Yea thanks so much.

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                <text>Roe Raymond, '08, majored in religious studies, is from central New Jersey.  He remembers the first night on campus as having some returning students come to Jonsson Tower and invite first years to join them at an event.  That welcome helped break the ice.  His major required lots of interdisciplinary study, including in sociology.  He studied abroad in Paris, learning about history and travel.  Living in France and outside the "Skidmore bubble" helped him decide how to focus on how best to use his remaining semesters on campus.  He was part of Skidmore's Cycling Club,  and also sang in the chorus.  His bike, meant to be a large part of the Paris study-abroad experience, was waylaid by the airline, and arrived with only a month to spare.  He was able to reconnect with his professors when applying to graduate school, and appreciated their being 'a huge resource.'  He appreciated the open converstions in classrooms, and how faculty guided conversations rather than dictating.  The importance of looking at all sides, and hearing different perspectives with respect, was very important to his program, particularly a course on religion and violence which considered the September 2001 attacks.</text>
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                    <text>JS: Hello, I am James Sutherland and um, I am doing the Saratoga Springs Memory Project
interview. Could you introduce yourself?
EM: Yes, I am Eric Morser, I am an associate professor of history at Skidmore College.
JS: Um, could you tell us a little about your background?
EM: Yeah, I am originally from Wisconsin, uh, I lived there for the first thirty three years of my
life, I went to the University of Wisconsin for my undergraduate degree, and liked it enough in
Madison Wisconsin that I stayed there for my masters and my PHD, so I was there for fifteen
years. Um, after that, I had a number of jobs around the country, I taught at a university in
Pennsylvania, I taught for two years at the University of New Mexico and three years at the
University of Florida, before coming up to Skidmore, and I have been at Skidmore now for about
nine years.
JS: So you came to Saratoga for Skidmore?
EM: Yes, yeah there was a job that was open, and it sounded like it was a good place, and I had
known some people who had taught here, and, uh, that is really what drew me here.
JS: Um, so what is one big memory, what is your favorite memory of Saratoga Springs?
EM: My favorite memory of Saratoga Springs is probably related to this little person here, uh, he
was born a few months after we moved here, and uh, I remember very clearly, I was teaching a
class- a night class on campus, I got a call from his mom saying "Can you come home, I need to
go to the hospital," and then he was born at 6:06 the next day on November 5, 2009, so that is
probably one of the clearest memories that I have.
JS: And, um, what about a memory from Skidmore?
EM: Uh, I think one of the best memories I've had from Skidmore is, right at- the year when I
came, there was something called the Coroda(?) lecture, and that's, it happens every two years,
it's hosted by the Poli-sci department, and Government, and American Studies, and each time
each department gets it they bring special speaker in. So, I think it was my first year, or my
second? I think it was my first year, where it was my job to bring the speaker in, and I was not
quite sure what to make of it, I had somebody in mind who turned out to be great, she came to
campus, she talked about early American history, she had just written a book about Thomas
Jefferson, and the women in his life, and it was that moment where I really felt like I was part of
the Skidmore community. Where people, I was reaching out to people, and they were coming to
this event, and it was kind of a big campus event, and that was a really good memory for me,

�that’s always been a good memory thinking about how it is that I started to create an origin, to
establish roots here.
JS: Any other events like that that stand out to you?
EM: Yeah, I mean one that’s more recent than that, is that I was able to work on a prison exhibit that
came to campus, it was a national prison exhibit, I had put together a public history course kind of like the
one that you’re teaching, it was built around a semester long project, I know you guys are doing the
Howard Zinn documentary, and that project was related to the history of Mount MacGregor, a prison that
closed in 2014, and we were invited to join this international, well really national but kind of international
organization, in which each school was donating a local story relating to mass incarceration. So I was able
to work on this project with those students, and then finally last semester that exhibit that had been
touring the country came to Skidmore, and it was kind of a nice series of memories of events that I’d
worked on, with Jordana Dym and some other people on campus, drawing people from in the community,
draeing a lot of students, and it was a series of really satisfying events that highlighted all of the things
that are possible when you’re at a place like Skidmore. So I think more recently that’s something that
really stands out.
JS: These- so community events, I take it, you’re very into them.
EM: Yes, yes definitely.
JS: Are those the only two, or…
EM: Those are the ones that really stand out, I – part of what I do along with teaching in the history
department, I’m the faculty director of civic engagement, so that has given me a chance to work with
other faculty members and students on similar kinds of community events so I spend a lot of time
thinking about bringing speakers to campus, and helping students reach out beyond the campus in ways
that are really satisfying, one thing that we did a couple of years ago was we brought a speaker in named
Julie Winoker(?), and she, uh, had put together a film about the challenge of trying to get people from
different political points of view having conversations with one another, and that was, we brought her in
in 2016, when the presidential election was really heating up, and it was a nice chance to bring members
of the community together for, uh, for an event that I thought was really important given the context of
the times. So whenever there’s a chance to do that kind of community outreach I really really enjoy it.
JS: What are some challenges that you face with that aspect of the job?
EM: It is always, uh with the civic engagement stuff, it is always um… well we don’t have a lot of
resources for it, so I’m lucky enough to work with a subcommittee, on campus, where I work with people
like Michelle Hubbs, who is a staff member who works on community outreach, and I work with other
faculty members. Had the committee not existed, I could not do the job at all. And part of it is just about
having financial support, a part of it is logistical support, planning these events takes a lot of time, and
takes a lot of energy, and it can be really satisfying, but it can be really stressful as well, trying to figure
out if the room you have is the right size, trying to reach out to people who are not members of the

�campus, trying to bring a lot of people in, there are always a lot of moving parts, so that’s part of the
challenge of it, and when it works it’s great, but it takes a lot of focused energy to get it moving.
JS: So what’s one thing about Skidmore or Saratoga Springs that you would change?
EM: Oooh, that I would change about Skidmore or Saratoga Springs… um… I guess for Skidmore, if I
could change anything, and this is a little more personal I guess, I really like this idea of civic
engagement, I wish we had a center for civic engagement, I wish we had some kind of a dedicated space,
I wish we had staff, I wish we had a million dollar a year budget, um, I think something like that would be
fantastic. And one thing that I also wish is that um, I wish that there was a little more sense of
coordination on campus because there’s so much going on, and a lot of times one hand doesn’t always
know what the other hand is doing in terms of planning events, or even putting classes together that I
wish there was some kind of way to coordinate things a little more so that we always, so that we have a
better sense of all of the activities that are going on, rather than having so much going on that people feel
overwhelmed, and I think that students sometimes feel overwhelmed by that as well. So I think if I could
change anything personally I’d love to have a center for civic engagement, otherwise if there was a way
to coordinate these events and um, to really involve different kinds of departments who might be
interested in these events and to bring them in in a more intentional way, I think that’d be great.
JS: Reverse of that, what’s one thing that you hope never changes?
EM: I hope, what never changes, is that, I hope I always have good, devoted students, and one thing I like
about Skidmore students is that they are really aware of the world around them. I like the fact that we
have so many students going abroad, I like the fact that there are a lot of students who really believe that
they can change the world, and if that attitude disappeared it would be a real loss, so I think that’s one
thing that I really like, I really like the students. You guys are really engaged, and you’re just, you’re a
fun group to work with, and that’s the biggest thing I would hate to see disappear.
JS: So how many different classes would you say you’ve taught at Skidmore?
EM: Um, I would say ten or twelve classes, I think something like that? Um, I’ve got in my rotation now
I’ve got six or seven, something like that, and I’ve got different versions, I think I’ve taught a dozen
different classes, ten or twelve for sure. And I mean that’s one thing that’s nice too that I really like about
Skidmore, is that we’ve got a lot of freedom to design the kinds of classes that we really like, um, at some
places I knew people who taught the same class over and over and over again, and there was not a lot of
freedom or leeway to really engage in that kind of creative pedagogy, where you would have a chance to
say, I really wanna teach a class on this, like I taught my first year experience course, when that exhibit
was here, I taugh a first year experience course on mass incarceration, and I was able to take my students
over to the exhibit and integrate them into the events, and that is something that would not necessarily be
common at a bigger university, so one great thing about Skidmore is that we have that kind of freedom to
teach a variety of different kinds of classes, and we’ve got a lot of, there’s a lot of energy in the history
department, where people are having conversations about classes that they want to teach, or team
teaching, or coming in and talking in somebody else’s class, we do that all the time, and there’s a really
nice sense of cooperative education going on here. And that’s, that’s been really exciting.

�JS: So is there any particular class or collaboration with another teacher that stands out?
EM: Uh, one that I did this past semester is, my colleague Erika Bastress-Dukehart, who teaches – you
may have had her before – that she teaches a course on crime and punishment ijn Europe, and I was doing
my course on mass incarceration in the United States, and I said to her it’d be great if you could come in
and talk about Fukoh(?) and talk about the European origins of American criminal justice, and she came
in and did that, and, uh, it was great for the students to meet her, and see, her, she’s really dynamic, and
she said now I – it’d be great if you could come into my class too, so I went into one of her classes on the
Reformation and talked about the impact of the Reformation on American history, and that was one
moment where the two of us could really come together, and it really wasn’t just about having
conversations, where we discover that we have similar interests, it was about us taking those similar
interests and viewing particular events from different points of view and coming into classes and sharing
those different points of view. It’s moments like that that are really great, and we’ve talked about doing
more of that kind of work here, and that’s one that I really look back and say “that worked, that was a
good thing.”
JS: Um, of all the historical sites in and around Saratoga, which one resonates with you most of all?
EM: I like – I love the battlefield, that’s probably an easy answer for me. I really, I’ll give you two to that,
I love the battlefield because I like to be able to talk about the Battle of Saratoga in class and tell students
we’re 20 minutes away from where the world changed. Uh, they do a really nice job leading tours, and
organizing it, but I really really like having that battlefield close by because it reminds students how close
history can actually be. One other place I like is Congress Park, and I like that just because of the beauty
of the park, and I’ve got fond memories of taking him (his son) there and going on the merry-go-round,
even though you cried the first time because you thought you’d never be able to come back ever again,
once we did that, but in terms of teaching I like to point to Congress Park because not only is that the
place where John Morrissey established one of his casinos, but it’s where Frederick Law Olmsted, the
landscape architect, did some of his work, and he’s the one who designed Central Park. So it’s a nice
opportunity to both be in this beautiful place and say “look, this is where all of this cool history happened,
it’s really close by, it defines the community that we all live in, and you can go and visit it, and see it.” So
those are two places that really stand out for me in terms of places that are close by, historical places.
JS: Do you think any sites around here are understated, or not as prominent?
EM: I am not sure, I think sometimes what happens is that people don’t always remember that they’re
surrounded by history, and one of the activities that I have students do in my public history class is just
take a day and walk around the downtown and look around at it, and look at the architecture, and look at
the dates on the buildings, and a place like Broadway I think has a really interesting history that people
don’t always think about because they don’t go down there thinking about the history, they think about
the shopping, or going to the bookstore or going out to eat, and if we stop and kind of just sit and look
around and say “that is, I had not thought about it in historical terms,” you can see how that type of
history in everyday life is just more important and more prominent than people often recognize. One thing
I like to do too is have students try and follow the railroad tracks, if you go down in front of, they run past

�the movie theater, and they run past to the grocery store downtown, that they’ve been laid out so that you
can walk the railroad tracks, and when you do something like that you get a sense of how the city has
changed. So in terms of finding places that are often overlooked, I like to take a look at the everyday, and
say “let’s try and locate this in a historical context.” And if you do that, then you can see how it is that the
everyday life that you lead is connected to these broader stories that continue to echo in American history
and in a place like Saratoga Springs.
JS: Do you think that Broadway and places like that are intentionally designed or presented in a way that
makes people think about history?
EM: I think it’s getting better, I think that there are efforts on the part of historic preservation in town, and
other local historians to say that we need to remember that this history is present, and I don’t think that
people always see it, but I think that there is an effort on the part of a lot of local historians to highlight
this kind of history as it exists, I just think that people are not programmed to notice it. But there is, I
think that there is a real effort in town to try and do this, and it doesn’t make Saratoga Springs unusual, I
think you see that in a lot of local communities, it is really hard to break people out of the contemporary
mindset and say “this is the past around us,” we’ve got to grasp that, to understand how that past that
seems long past is still alive and still shapes the world that we inhabit, I think local historians often have
to swim upstream to do that. They do a good job, in Saratoga Springs I think they do a pretty good job but
they’re fighting against a tendency of people to think very contemporarily in the way that they understand
the world.
JS: Do you think that Skidmore students are better about recognizing the subtleties of history found out in
the world?
EM: I think that if they take the time to think about it they can be very good, and I’ve seen this in my own
public history class where students have gone out and they’ve really been given the freedom and the
encouragement to go out and really think about these more subtle stories and I think that they have the
capacity to do that kind of work if they’re given the chance, and I think that some people in
environmental studies do prjects like this where they get students out into the community thinking about
environmental issues in a way that we as public historians really want our students to do the same kind of
thing. I think if Skidmore – one thing I like about Skidmore students is that you guys do almost
everything we ask you to do, and if given a chance you will do great things. So it’s about having the
opportunity and getting out and getting off the campus, and getting into town and getting to the battlefield
and seeing all of these things. And my experience is that when that happens, when I took students up to
see Mount MacGregor, it was eye opening. It was transformative for them to actually see the prison that
they were talking about in the class. So I have a lot of faith in Skidmore students.
JS: You mentioned environmental studies, do you think that… what other fields of study do you think are
beneficial to be studied alongside history?
EM: Um, I think, I love it when I have students who take anthropology, um because we do very similar
kinds of things, we look back, we put bits and pieces together trying to reconstruct lost worlds, so I love
when I have students who are archaeologists, who work with people like Heather Hurst, who are able to

�bring that point of view into the classes that I teach. I love having students who are able to contextualize
cultural issues, in classes, so I love having students who are English majors, or dance majors, or theater
majors, and I think theater in particular is a really cool way to think about storytelling which is what we
do as historians. So I think anthropologists, political scientists, these other kinds of humanists, bringing
them into the history classes can be fantastic, and I’m kind of running on and it’s going to be like “I love
having everybody in class!” But I also, I mean the other thing I would say is that it can be really
refreshing having physical and natural scientists taking history classes too, because they will bring to the
game different kinds of questions, and they are often really… I can see the lightbulb coming on for
example when I have environmental studies majors who emphasize the science part of it, taking an
environmental history class. So I like having students from all over the place who bring different points of
view, and who think in radically different ways but can inform what we talk about in history by what they
bring to the class from these different, these different locations.

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                  <text>The Flurry Festival is a three day music and dance Festival that takes place in Saratoga Springs in February. The festival holds workshops, performances, dances, and jam sessions in the city center and throughout the town. The Flurry first started as a dance festival for contra dancing but has expanded to musicians and spans all genres of music and dance as well as encompassing  family friendly events such as storytelling.</text>
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              <text>Interviewee: John Kirk &#13;
Interviewer: Tess Olcott &#13;
Location of Interview: Zankel Music Building, Room 325 &#13;
Date of Interview: 12/2/2016 &#13;
00:00:00 Header &#13;
00:00:18 Introduction – Born in New Finland, Canada, father in the Air force so grew up around the world. Moved to the states when he was 11. Grew up in turbulent times.  &#13;
00:01:32 The 1960s were a time of great music, his sisters music collection got him started in music, and she taught him guitar. He got his own guitar at age 9. It was organic from there, self-taught. In college he got his first banjo for $40, led to listening to more banjo recordings which had mandolin and fiddle so he learned those also.  &#13;
00:4:47 Came to Skidmore when wife started teaching banjo, still teaches in Vermont – music history and instrumental music, has been teaching for 9 years at Skidmore. Loves teaching college students because of their enthusiasm, likes to teach how to learn music. Being able to teach and having students show appreciation gives great joy. In the 1950's you could not study jazz because of its stigma, enjoys seeing the growth of music. &#13;
00:10:21Playing in a group near Albany and was asked to play in the Flurry Festival at a junior high school. Calls contra dancing while playing the fiddle. The festival was on a much smaller scale. It was 1987, the first year it started.  &#13;
00:12:30 Calling dancing is very common in traditional music and many international dances. In America, it started with dancing masters. There was different organized dances for English, Irish, etc. that colonists brought here. Masters would travel around calling dances, still happens today. The tradition is held. There are several different formations and music types. There is a huge contra dancing society, one of the main reasons for the Flurry. Explains how contra dancing works. Recent Flurry now have gender free dances. &#13;
00:18:12 Changes to the Flurry after the move – More space, more variety, more performers, more people. All new dances, new workshops, new instruments. Talks about each new dance, especially international dances. Having it in the middle of winter brings people out and about. &#13;
00:22:21 Going to the flurry – overwhelming, sounds from everywhere in every move. Explains the process of looking at a program and deciding which events to go to because there are so many events, you have to plan ahead or else you may miss something amazing. Endless opportunities even for beginners. Always something to do throughout the whole weekend. Young people people now outnumber the people who have been going for years.  &#13;
00:27:36 Being part of the community – people that go that he plays with that he has known for 40 years. Great to get to visit with old friends. It is always fun to go to the big sessions where a lot of things come together. &#13;
00:29:22 How the younger generation effects the feel of the festival – Higher energy level, great to see the change in music. There are always new ways of playing music. Seeing new innovative ways of playing music.  &#13;
00:32:37 – Big changes to the festival – change happens gradually, but seeing all new forms of international music is exciting. Sometimes get so caught up in appreciating the music and don't notice all of the change until later. Contra dance is still the big social dance. At the very first flury, the danced the finish write off of the gym floor, including the logo. &#13;
00:35:34 Doing the festival with wife is priceless. They get to do all of the events together is always fun. &#13;
00:36:20 Favorite things to go to at the Festival – Loves the impromptu sessions in the hallway, the percussive dance, and several of the international dances. Went on a tour around the world and got used to hearing music in a new way. &#13;
00:38:56 The changing community – mostly in numbers. Incredible population. Diversity has also increased. Especially with gender. Also talks about Irish set dancing. People are coming from farther away, the social media presence is expanding. They have a house full every year which has turned into a tradition. &#13;
00:41:53 Affect on Saratoga – Had to battle for space every year. Main street and downtown businesses have been really supportive. Brings in a lot of people to the city. &#13;
00:43:20 Other traditions – At the end of the festival, the next conference is a Baptist gospel revival conference. People at flurry are all tired and a mess by the end and the Baptist group is all dressed very nicely. Its funny to compare the two. People make friends very quickly at the Festival. Political, social, plans and networking talked about. There are struggles too, but they all disappear post partum  &#13;
00:46:37 Other challenges – Staying hydrated and nourished. Trying to get everywhere. Deciding where to go. Very few artistic problems &#13;
00:47:59 Favorite memory/story - Lots of favorite things, playing with legendary mandolin players and Peter Davis. Every percussive dance performance is worth seeing. To be a part of the final dance on stage in the big band. &#13;
00:52:18 What advice would you give – Print out a schedule and highlight what you want to do. Look forward to it and fear nothing. Fear not. Go to the dances and try to participate. Stay hydrated and dress in layers. &#13;
00:55:05 Favorite workshop – percussive dance festival, or funny songs and sing along. Maybe a yoga class! Come to the festival – it’s a great tradition. &#13;
00:58:12 End of interview</text>
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&lt;li&gt;&lt;a title="Steps for Georeferencing Historic NC Maps" href="http://www2.lib.unc.edu/wikis/ncmaps/index.php/Steps_for_Georeferencing_Historic_NC_Maps"&gt;Steps for Georeferencing Historic NC Maps&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&#13;
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&lt;li&gt;&lt;a title="North Carolina Counties: Date Founded" href="http://www2.lib.unc.edu/wikis/ncmaps/index.php/North_Carolina_Counties:_Date_Founded"&gt;Table of North Carolina Counties by Date Founded&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&#13;
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&lt;li&gt;&lt;a title="Digitization at UNC-Chapel Hill" href="http://www2.lib.unc.edu/wikis/ncmaps/index.php/Digitization_at_UNC-Chapel_Hill"&gt;Digitization at UNC-Chapel Hill&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&#13;
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