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16 40 764 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/2329b2fc0d523c28039a2eb36d600f06.png 5fc7389e20e18f73ef9edd304ddb0371 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Professor and students https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/33def00fe1b7d43be88e99e287da2857.png daea5eaf8125e1c0f0934d138e1d3a1c Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Nursing student at work https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/f0e3c57afdbb295c78cf23606c108656.png cde7f6271d293c57be975c47268ce2cc Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore in NYC https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/0d80157025b3c3128d27ae10d8b2ae89.png b1b4cd4652f518cdd7dc17529bfb7cb8 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Program closing article Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The New York Times https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/c7c42eaf0e5dc9b202a28e1f48d93bad.png b8e0dceee2771a714a0bdf3d496c07ca Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Class of 198? Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/186b5fa8b60cf59bd38c13a71667d4e8.png d48892d7b3106d62e20283720977cdbc Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hospital sign https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/d36c3dd171b4aed42cb27574b1e5f9fc.png 7da13743e0b23c54029b2ecf8d9b72f7 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore building in NYC Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/a672f0e7d7e6ea560c8f928aee09272d.png 5cae8512948e45d6686e6f00498afdad Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Nursing students in NYC Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/bfe1cfadd69094873da67c8c10e6c207.PNG 86d6997cb765d8acbcad7f230c11a357 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/c58b894c6fea455fc073f7b0e208b4f3.m4a fd7612609852d8d62f36898a1ffc97db https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/bcc2dc7689602cdebf81459a580d7a45.pdf ff8b1ddea9e3970412e3bf6917e3ecc5 PDF Text Text Interview with Susan (“Gibbsie”) Gibbs '65 by Charlotte Bracklo '19, COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, 2019. CHARLOTTE BRACKLO [00:00]: Um, so where were you from before you decided to attend Skidmore's nursing program? SUSAN GIBBS [00:07]: I was from Wellesley, Massachusetts. CB [00:11]: Okay. And how did you hear about Skidmore or the program or what, what drew you to it? SG [00:18]: Oh Gosh. Well, I knew I wanted to become a nurse and I guess I just heard by word of mouth, um, about Skidmore's program and that it was supposed to be an excellent, excellent program. And I had a cousin who was, who went to Skidmore, but she, she was not in the nursing program, but I think I asked her a little bit about that and she said, ‘Oh yeah, it was supposed to be very good.’ So, so I applied. It was that easy. I didn't know a whole lot about it before I started. CB [00:50]: That's great. So, did your family have a background in the field of medicine or nursing? SG [00:55]: No. Nothing. Nothing at all, no. My mother apparently had wanted to be a nurse in her youth, but her father wouldn't let her, he didn't think that was appropriate so that the idea blew out the window. CB [01:07]: Okay. So, so what drew you to nursing in the first place? SG [01:12]: Uh, I don't, it's kind of hard to tell. I think, I think maybe I had seen some movie, I don't remember what it is at the moment where it was about nursing or about a nurse. And I thought that that was fascinating because originally for years and years I, I had wanted to be a preschool teacher and because I've, I've worked with children my whole life and I, and I, I knew I wanted to be a pediatric nurse, but I didn't know I wanted to be a nurse to begin with. But all of a sudden it just hit me like a bolt of lightning out of the blue that, oh, I'm going to be a nurse. So, I went on with it. CB [01:50]: Cool. And what was your educational background like going into Skidmore? SG [01:56]: Uh, I went to a school called Dana Hall, which is in Wellesley and got a very good, in my opinion, and very good general education there. So I was, I was ready for college, definitely. CB [02:11]: Great. And you kind of already got to this, but what, um, was there anything specific that drew you to Skidmore's program or was it really the fact that your cousin was there? SG [02:24]: No, we weren't that close. So it was, it was the nursing program that drew me to it �because it, it had a, just a really, really good, uh, what do you call it? Now my English is failing. They said good things about it. Yeah. CB [02:41]: Um, what was your sense of the program before, before you started there? SG [02:49]: Um, really nothing. I just knew that it was one, I think it was one of the top four schools in the country. And I knew I wanted to get a baccalaureate education and not just go to a three-year nursing school because that was, well, that had started a few years before, but, uh, it was really becoming quite, uh, the thing to do back then. And I know several people that I both knew and had heard of, uh, had gone to a uh, gone to a three year school and then went back afterwards to get their degree. So, I figured I might as well kill two birds with one stone. Yeah. And it sounded like a school I wanted to go to. Just generally speaking. CB [03:35]: Um, so tell me more about your experience in the program. Anything from classes, professors that stood out? Any specific memories? SG [03:47]: Well, we had a very, quite a stringent program because we, we had to declare our, uh, our major before we were admitted to Skidmore. Even, I mean, I was in, it was, it was a very stringent program. So, our freshman year, uh, all we had...We didn't have to take, I don't know what you guys do today, but we did have to take freshman English. That was, that was required of us. And, but all the other freshmen had to take a course in logic and we didn't have, everyone had to take it. They had to, there was no question. But you know, they couldn't get out of it. And we heard all these different questions they were asking and we kind of felt out of it in the dorm, because everybody was talking about logic, but we were talking about anatomy and physiology. No, but we had, we just had freshman English that year and um, uh, other than nursing, all the other things were nursing programs or uh courses, so, so we had our work cut out for us. And then we had, we were two years in New York City and we were there the summer after our sophomore year for eight weeks. So, it was actually a four and a half year program. But when we got back to campus on, on our senior, in our senior year, we were, we only had one nursing program, which was one nursing course, which was a, a sort of a highfalutin course about... It was, it was nothing clinical about it at all. Our clinical work was in New York City and then, then we were allowed to take just about whatever we wanted to when we got back onto campus. And we were allowed to take 400-level classes and certain things if they had room for us you know. And we weren't expected to do our, well, we were expected to do our best, but we weren't expected to be the best of the class. I remember taking a 400-level course with a bunch of, everybody was seniors, you know, and um, I was the only nurse in there and they were all English majors. And I remember one time one of the professors who was a full professor and had a doctorate, she asked a question about one of the, it was Shakespeare. And, uh, asked a question about one of his plays and everybody sat there like bumps on logs and I raised my hand and I answered the question. She said, ‘you're absolutely right.’ And then she said to them, ‘see girls, that, and that's a nurse.’ I'll never forget that. That's also that, that was the program. You know, we, we didn't have any choice except for our senior year. We had no choice as to what we were going to take. But that was okay because we knew we had to. That was �fine. We had some wonderful, wonderful, uh, teachers, especially in our, well in all of our years. But the, the freshman year, my favorite was, was our anatomy and physiology teacher. We had to dissect cats and we couldn't always find the organs or the veins or the nerves or whatever we were looking for. And we would say to her, her name was Eve Beverly Field. And we would say to her, ‘Ms. Field, uh, I can't find the,’ well, let's say the liver, which was not easy. I mean, that wasn't so hard to overlook. But anyway, and we said, ‘could you please show me where it is?’ And she would wave her hand over the corpse and she’d say, ‘right around in there.’ So, you were back to square one. No, but we had, we had very, we had very good teachers, I think. I think I liked all of them for, I liked all of them all of the time actually. Yeah, and of course the ones we had when we were in New York City were, they were all nurses themselves, except for one who was a psychologist and had a different course with us. So, a couple of the people that were teachers in New York, were uh, were Skidmore graduates themselves. Three of them were I think so that, that was nice. CB [07:54]: That's cool. So, tell me, tell me more about your time in New York. SG [08:00]: Oh boy. That was fun. It was, we stayed, our dorm was, belonged to the New York University Medical School and it was a 14-story building right on the East River and right near the hospital, which was the New York University Medical Center. And uh, we had the two top floors for Skidmore people. And there was no, I mean we just had, they were dorm rooms. There was no kitchen, there was no nothing. And I was just thinking of this this morning, I think I ate for dinner my entire two years down there I ate BLT sandwiches. There was a snack bar in the complex there and we all ate there. We didn't have any money for anything, you know. So, then there was a, there was a restaurant on 2nd Avenue, which was run by an Italian man who for some reason, I guess previous, lots of previous Skidmore students had gone in to eat at his place. His name was Leno and he loved Skidmore students. He had all the class pictures on the walls of his restaurant. And if we got very, very hungry and had no money, we could go in and eat for free and then we could pay him when he, when we got some money from our parents. We weren't allowed to work while we were students. That what that was, yeah, that was very, very strict. Because, uh, our, our instructors were responsible for what we did and we weren't allowed to practice any nursing, you know, on its own. So, so we, so we didn't have any money unless somebody's parents gave them a lot of money or something. And it was, it was an experience to live in the city. Uh, we had one in our class who was from, I don't think any of us, slept the first two nights we were there because it was so noisy. And we had, we had one girl who was from a small town in Missouri and when we got to Saratoga Springs, she couldn't sleep at night because of all the traffic on Union Avenue, which you people don't have as a problem that, but there was not a lot of traffic on Union Avenue. So, I don't think she slept the first week we were in New York. It was so noisy, but we got used to it. We got used to it. CB [10:23]: And how did your time in Saratoga compare to your time in New York? SG [10:28]: Oh, they were completely different. You just can't compare them. We grew up, we �really grew up quickly. We noticed a big difference when we got back to campus as seniors because, well of course what we...our field to study of course was, you know, we ran into a lot of really serious mind-boggling things then and uh, which we had to face up to. So, where the, the kids on campus were, they just were regular college students doing regular college... I'm sure plenty of them had serious things they had to think about and stuff. But it was, it was completely different. Then of course the pace of the life in New York City was completely different from, from uh, up in Saratoga. And we had a different campus that, that time, the campus you guys are on now was bought when we were freshmen. And I remember we had a day, the whole school got a day off, and we called it Woodlawn day and everybody went out to the place where the current campus is and we sawed down small trees and gathered brush and made big piles and lit bonfires for a whole day, which was helping so that they could take the first shovel and start working on the new campus. So, we were never there and it was nothing in our senior year either, everything on the old campus. So, so I've never had the, the privilege to be on the new one. Except that I've been at, to a couple of reunions, but never lived there or anything. CB [12:10]: So you just mentioned that you ran into a lot of mind-boggling situations. Is there anything that stands out that you would like to share? SG [12:180: Eh, well, the way that a lot of really sick patients, you know, and I, I remember, I remember the very first patient I had, who was an older man and I had to, I had to give him a shot. I had never given anybody a shot before, so I was petrified. And he was, he was getting a pain injection, so he, he was looking forward to the shot, which was good, but he was, his skin was like leather. And I didn't stick the needle in hard enough and it bounced back. And then I thought, oh, I'm giving up, I'm quitting, I'm quitting. And my instructor, who was a very demanding, wonderful person and she said, ‘Do it again,’ and the man groaned and all that. So, he got his shot. Oh, the first time was the worst. And I had a classmate, oh gosh, this was... We had never been on the wards before or anything. And she had a patient who wanted to use his urinal and she didn't know what a urinal was, and it was standing on the bedside table. And he said to her at that time, they were, they were metal, you see, so you couldn't see through them. I don't know what they are these days, probably plastic. But anyway, uh, he said to her, and here's this sweet young thing, right? So, he didn't want, he didn't, you know, he tried to be polite and he said, uh, ‘I would like that, please, is it full?’ And she said, ‘well, just a minute, I'll take a look.’ And she said, ‘Yes it is, where is your bouquet?’ She thought it was a vase with water in it and he had to tell her what it was. No, and I know one of, one of my first patients on our medical rotation died of cancer. That was not good. And my first patient that I had on pediatrics, who was a little baby, I don't remember what was wrong with him, I remember his name, but I don't remember what was wrong with him. I had him for two days and he died. You know, I was, what, 19 years old so that's, you know, a lot of stuff like that and you know, there were really, really sick patients, so... CB [14:31]: Yeah. Thanks for sharing. Um, so moving on, like what was your path after Skidmore? �SG [14:41]: Well, I was offered a job at the University Hospital in pediatrics and I thought, oh, I thought that was very nice. But then I thought, I should probably try a different hospital, not be in the same place. So, I put in an application to Babies Hospital at Columbia and I wanted to, I wanted to work in New York, so that was fine, I moved there. And uh, I worked there for about three months and I hated it. And all the, almost all the nurses that were there, um, had gone to Columbia Presbyterian School and they were kind of snooty about it, you know, and they didn't like people from other schools and, and... Oh, I just, you know, of course I had to work Christmas, right? I knew I would have to do that because I was low man on the totem pole. And I thought, well, I was working nights and I thought, well at least I'll see the little kids wake up and see their stockings hanging on their beds, but when I went home, none of the children were awake. So that was horrible. So, I held out as long as I could. And then I went back down to University Hospital and asked the...spoke with the supervisor in pediatrics and I said, ‘is it still possible for me to come here?’ And she said, ‘I thought you'd be back.’ And uh, so I, I, you know, resigned from the job up there and the woman said, ‘Oh, you'll never get...and I'm not going to give you a good resume or anything.’ And I thought, well, I said, ‘It's okay. I have another job all lined up.’ So that's, you know. So, I was there for seven years and then I decided to come here and I've been here ever since. So, I've worked full time with no leave of absence for, well, a couple of months, you know, and that is at one point before I came over here, but I've worked 100% for 47 years. CB [16:37]: Wow. SG [16:39]: Yeah. On the bright side I haven't, I haven't gone on. We were encouraged to go on and get further degrees and everything, but of course we were told to work a couple of years before applying. And most of the grad schools, at that point, you had to have some job experience before you got in. So, uh, and a lot of my classmates did that and, but, but I, you know, I just wanted to be a nurse. I wanted to be at the bedside and I stayed at the bedside for 47 years and I've never regretted it. CB [17:10]: That's great. So, what made you move? Because now you live in, in Norway? SG [17:17]: Yes. Um, I was, um, well I had been here on vacation several times and I just really liked it here. So, I thought, well, I'd like to work over there for a year. And it took me almost a year to get all my papers together and, and get everything organized and get accepted to work here and everything. And I kept saying, oh, I can't go. That was a big step to take, you know, I thought, oh, I can't go because my grandmothers are both getting old and think if they die and everything. Of course, they didn't. So, and so I finally got my papers and with some courage together and came over and I was going to be here for a year, but that's, that's 47 years ago now. So, it's been a long year. CB [18:02]: Wow, that's, that's cool. Um, and how did you, while you worked, how did you find that what you had learned at Skidmore, uh, impacted or benefited you? SG [18:14]: Oh, I mean, I couldn't do anything. I couldn't, I knew nothing about nursing before I �started at Skidmore so it meant 350% of everything, if not 500%. Yeah. Every, everything, everything helped. Yeah. CB [18:27]: Oh, so how did the liberal arts education benefit you, do you think? SG [18:32]: Oh, I knew... I could talk about other things and I knew about other things than bedpans and urinals and blood transfusions and babies popping out and that kind of stuff. So could you, you know, you're dealing with people and people, normal people don't talk about, you know, medical or nursing conditions all the time. Then of course you do when you're working as a nurse. We were, there were a bunch of us who went out for dinner years ago over here to a restaurant. And we sat, I worked at work in an ICU here for 40 years, and that was, you know, it was pretty gory a lot of the time. And we sat there talking about blood and poop and you know, all sorts of horrible things and laughing and laughing. And finally, the people that were sitting at the next table, one of them leaned over and said, ‘Do you think you people could talk about something else, please?’ So, when you're together with a lot of people like that, you do talk a lot of job talk and stuff, but you have to know about art and history and literature and everything else that the world actually consists of in order to do this. CB [19:49]: Yeah. SG [19:49]: Yeah. CB [19:49]: Um, so the nursing program at Skidmore closed. SG [19:54]: Yeah. CB [19:54]: Do you remember learning about the closing of the program and how you felt about it? SG [20:00]: Oh, I think we were all devastated. Just devastated. I, do you know what year it closed? I can't remember. I graduated in '65. I'm thinking it maybe was in the early, early seventies. Do you know? CB [20:19]: Something around that. SG [20:21]: Yeah, I think so. No, I, I guess they sent a letter from, from Skidmore saying that they had to close and they had to close because people weren't applying as much anymore. And just at the, at the time, that we graduated in '65. I remember that. I had a classmate who was a math major and she got a job, bang, right out of college working for IBM. She didn't know beans about computers, you know, but she knew about math and she got the highest paying job of all the people in our class. And I think we were maybe 300, give or some, give it a little more than 300 classmates all together. And she got the highest paying job. Amazing. And you know, so girls were just beginning to be able to get jobs other than nurses, teachers, librarians, uh, you know, that kind of stuff, or, you know, good old, old fashioned women's jobs where people were beginning to branch out �and do something else. CB [21:24]: Yeah. SG [21:24]: So, but I remember getting that, oh, we're just, we were just devastated. Horrible. And it was expensive. It was getting more and more expensive to live in New York. Uh, I don't know if they lost those two dorm floors, but you know, there was a big faculty down there and they had to live someplace in New York and they had to pay the cost of living for New York City, which was not going down the drain. So, uh, I think that's one of the reasons they had. Well, there were several reasons they cut it out, but we didn't like it because we were really way, way at the top of the list of, um, nursing programs nationally. CB [22:05]: Yeah. So, did you communicate with like other Skidmore, Skidmore friends about it when you heard about the closing? SG [22:11]: Yeah, yeah, we did. And everybody was just thought, oh no, this is horrible. Just horrible. CB [22:17]: Yeah. Okay. Um, then I think on the, uh, when you first indicated your interest in participating in this project, yeah. I think you talked about a memory of the day of the JFK funeral. SG [22:33]: Oh yes. CB [22:34]: Do you want to tell me some more about that? SG [22:36]: Yeah, yeah, we were, we were in New York when he was shot. I remember exactly where I was in that building. I think everybody does that, you know, and, and uh, I was picking up my, I know this isn't the funeral, but I was getting, I was going to see what, if there was anything in my mailbox and the guy who manned the desk down at the, at the reception area said, ‘Did you hear the news?’ And I said, ‘No,’ I think there were two of us there, and we said, ‘No.’ And he said, ‘Kennedy just got shot.’ And, and we said, ‘Oh, come on, don't be funny that, that or that, that's not if you think that's funny, it's not a joke, you know.’ And he said, ‘No, it's not a joke and it's the truth.’ And then the funeral came and we were allowed to have the day off to watch it on television with the exception of two classmates who were on their public health, uh, rotation and they had patients waiting for them who needed to have a bath or have a treatment or something like that. And the, the, uh, the instructor would not let them have the day off and all the rest of us had the day off and we sat glued to the television. And so the, you know, these two poor girls, they were, they understood it. I mean, this, this is the reality of nursing. I mean, if it's Christmas, you work, if it's New Year's, you work, if it's the 4th of July, you work. Not every year, but you know that, that's the way it is. So that was very much brought home to them at that time. CB [24:06]: Yeah. �SG [24:07]: And people, of course, there were nothing, there was nothing called an iPhone or, you know, that you could look, you know, you could take it with you and watch it on TV as you were riding the subway to work or something. So, you had to be at home where there was a television, one television. CB [24:25]: Are there other, um, memories such as that one from either a particular class or a particular time that, um, you would like to share? Because as of now, I don't have any specific questions, but really any other... SG [24:40]: Well, let's see, uh, well that was, that was, uh, that was, we all were very much taken by that decision. And of course, the teacher was right. I mean these were sick people who were waiting, waiting for the nurse to come and uh, help them, right? Well, and I had this, speaking of public health, I had a patient. We had a 16-week rotation on public health and uh, we tramped the streets. We were placed in different areas of the city and I was in Brooklyn and I had a patient whose name was Molly and she was 80 years old and she lived in the childhood apartment that she had grown up with, in, with her two sisters. And the oldest, let's see... there was her, let me see, no. She was 82. She had an 80-year old sister who was younger who, um, sort of ruled the roost and she worked as a cleaning woman for a few families, so she had to make sure she was home when I came because Molly refused to take a bath. She refused. And uh, the sisters couldn't... no, no wait a minute. No, she was the oldest. She was the oldest one. So, she was the boss and the sisters said to her, the other sister was a, was a psychiatric patient and she laid, would not get out of her bed. And Molly tried to snatch the covers off of her and make her get up because she was the, the... She was tiny. Teeny weeny little skinny thing and the sisters were not paying any attention to her and, and they could not get her into a bathtub. So, I had to come once a week and give her a bath and she was like, uh, as nice as a kitten. When I arrived, I had to walk up a flight of about 25 stairs to get up to their apartment. She never recognized me. Not one single time for 16 weeks, and her sister would say, ‘Come down Molly, the nurse is here.’ And I would go up and I would get this little lady all...she had a thing about safety pins. Everything on her was pinned together. And I had to get all of those safety pins out and I had to get her into the bathtub. And every now and then I had to wash her hair. She didn't like that and she was all, she was as calm and as nice as anything. But the, and then she'd give me a big hug when I left and she'd say, ‘Oh, thank you and see you next week.’ And I'd come the next week. She never knew who I was. That was something, that was really, it was like taking care of a child. It really was, you know. Uh, let me see what else. Uh, we had a good time in New York, outside of the nursing. We've, as I said, we had no money. So, one of the things we used to do was to take the Staten Island Ferry, which cost a nickel in each direction. And if you went right out back again, it was a nickel round trip. So, we used to do that a lot. And of course, just walking the streets and looking at people and things was, was an education in itself. But it was quite an experience being in New York City. I would never move back there again now that, that's for sure. But I lived there for nine years altogether. So that was a, a...and Skidmore and the campus of course was completely different. Do you still have Yaddo? Do you know what Yaddo is? Okay. It's out at the end of Union Avenue, past the race track. And it was a huge, it was somebody's estate originally and then they turned it into �an artists' colony. It was a huge, huge tract of land with an enormous mansion in the middle of it. And all these artists, painters, and that kind of artist went and lived there and did their work and everything we used... And we were allowed to go out there and uh, and walk around the grounds and everything. So, we were there a lot. So, I don't know if, I wonder if it's still, have to check that out if it's still there. CB [28:53]: I will, yeah. SG [28:53]: It's out past the race track. CB [28:54]: Okay, I'll look into it. SG [28:57]: Oh, and we had something which was a tradition that, not just for nurses, but there was a bucket, which was called the bucket. And that was, the freshman class... each dorm was, they had a big competition and each dorm was try, had to get ahold of the bucket and hide it in their dorm, and then the other dorms would come ‘round rooms, this went on for the whole year and attack the dorm that had the bucket and try to find the bucket and take it to their dorm. So, this was something that was, oh, this was wonderful fun. We went, you know, this went on for a whole year, but that had nothing to do with nursing. This was everybody. CB [29:34]: Yeah. That's so fun though. Great. Well, thank you very much. SG [29:41]: You're most welcome. CB [29:42]: I'm going to stop the recording at this point. SG [29:45]: Okay. � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Susan Gibbs '65 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Charlotte Bracklo '19 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 29:59 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Jesse O'Connell Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Susan Gibbs '65 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio Interview Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. April 5, 2023 Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/67b144764f24db7586044aa8b45764c1.jpg 5be0716b75515114b57b0de61eb85f2c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pat Loftman, May 23, 2016 (portrait) https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/609bad4d65366e068f899d5ea6f29d29.jpg 0bcfaa024da4b0494445d1bd1dc83f2f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pat Loftman ACNM Fellows Induction, May 23, 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/70a0804eeab16d011581caf4de53894f.m4a 472c6612c54edacaf47be1d20baf8261 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/08311c540eff8c367af01343d9e61d69.pdf ec5cdbc55f7312dd3d6a66f604143118 PDF Text Text Interview with Patricia Loftman '71 by Skidmore Student [Unknown], COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, 2019. SKIDMORE STUDENT [00:00]: Could you start by saying your name and your class year? PATRICIA LOFTMAN [00:02]: My name is Patricia Loftman. I graduated in 1971. SS [00:10]: Okay. And, where were you from before you decided to attend Skidmore’s Nursing program. PL [00:15]: Where did I attend high school? SS [00:17]: Where were you born? Where did you grow up? PL [00:19]: Oh, where was I born. Oh, my family immigrated to the US from Jamaica in the Caribbean. When I was about eight years old, actually my, my parents were here in the state, I was raised by my grandparents in Jamaica. SS [00:36]: And where did you move to, when you moved to the states? PL [00:40]: Oh, we moved to Washington, D.C. where my dad was attending dental school at Howard University. SS [00:48]: Okay. did your family, so your dad was a dentist, did other family members have a background in medicine and nursing? PL [00:55]: No, he's actually the only one who has, any, any background in the healthcare field, everybody else is in other industries. SS [01:06]: And so, what was your educational background before you joined the program? Like did you, did you work before? Did you, go to school? PL [01:17]: Eventually we migrated to New York where I went to school, completed middle school and high school in the Bronx. In New York City. SS [01:30]: And did you always know you wanted to be a nurse? What drew you to the program? PL [01:36]: Well, when I entered Skidmore in 1966, my plan was to go into medicine. I entered as a pre-med major, completed my first year. My first year went fairly well, by the end. By the beginning of my sophomore year there was just something about the socialization into medicine that was just not appealing. And I began to look at other avenues and it seemed that nursing, would be more cognizant with who I was as an Individual and in terms of my interactions with human beings. So, I transferred my premed credits into nursing. SS [02:25]: And what about Skidmore, why did you choose here over other programs? �PL [02:30]: Actually, I didn't choose Skidmore. There were, the 60s was a very interesting time politically. It was very, very difficult for African Americans to get a decent quality education, especially in colleges and universities. And at that time, it was in the middle of the height of the civil rights era and there was a move to integrate a lot of the colleges and universities as a way for students of color, specifically African Americans to gain access to higher education. And at the time, a lot of the Ivy League schools were beginning to open up their doors and Skidmore was one of them. And so, my guidance counselor in high school actually chose it for me. My family didn't know anything about it. I didn't know anything about Skidmore, didn't know where Skidmore was, didn't know anything about it, but he thought it would be good for me. So, he chose it and I was accepted and I went. SS [03:28]: Wow, that’s got to be kind of intimidating, to go somewhere that you don’t know about at all and pretty far from home. PL [03:35]: It was. It was very intimidating. SS [03:39]: So, what was it like being in the program? What was it like being part of that new generation of women and people of color who were allowed to be in these programs? What was that like? PL [03:52]: It was, it actually was very, very traumatic and very painful. At the time, in 1966, Skidmore was an all-women's college. It was a small liberal arts college. One of those seven sister schools that you, you may or may not have heard about that existed at that time. It would have included Skidmore, Bryn Mawr, Smith, those kinds of schools. And Skidmore was somewhat smaller. If my memory serves me correct, there were less than 2000 women on campus and of those 2000 only, there were only seven students of color and they were actually all African Americans. My incoming freshman class had the largest number, four of us came in. There was one sophomore, her name was Linda Taliaferro. She has since passed away. There was one junior and one senior. So, it was very, very isolating actually. SS [04:53]: Did you find it was difficult to socialize and be a member - did you not feel much like a member of the community? PL [05:00]: No, we really were not. We were not welcomed. As a matter of fact, the four of us really stuck together for our own emotional health and sanity. At that time, because they were unisex schools, the surrounding male schools such as Williams and Wesleyan, they were all male at the time. So, by noon on Fridays, the campus was deserted because everyone had transportation alternatives that we didn't have. This was our first exposure to money and to wealth and to privilege, and to power. And we were not prepared for that at all. So, by noon on Friday, there was this huge campus and we were the only ones on it because everybody was gone. So, it was not, it was not a good time. It was not a good time for us. �SS [05:57]: I’m so sorry that that was your experience. Yeah, I mean I can't fathom because I have not been in that position, but I believe that that must've been so awful and painful and I'm just thankful that you are willing to talk to me about it. So, thank you so much. So, um, in terms of academics, what was the course load like? What were the classes that you are taking for the nursing program? PL [06:26]: So, the curriculum for the nursing program was your standard curriculum that you would find in any nursing program then and today. I have to say in retrospect, because I've always wondered what my preparation was like academically compared to others. I can say that Skidmore prepared me extremely well. I mean, I still remember my faculty. I remember Doris Diller. I remember Jean, what was Jean's last name? I don't remember her name, but I remember my faculty, they were absolutely wonderful. We had a rigorous course of study and I think that it, I think academically it most definitely prepared me quite well. SS [07:14]: Um, do you have any memories about Agnes Gelinas? PL [07:15]: She, I think she was before me. I know the name, but I never had her. SS [07:20]: Okay. Yeah, I can't remember when she retired. It might've been ’61 or ’62. So that was right before you. PL [07:29]: Yeah, I came with Jean Campbell, Doris Diller. I'm trying to remember some of the other people, but, Jean Campbell and Doris still, I remember vividly. SS [07:39]: Do you have any favorite classes or favorite memories with them? PL [07:45]: I don't know if you know, Doris Diller I remembered I had her for pediatrics and I had her for a peds and something else, I don't remember, but Doris Diller, her background had been in the military and she ran us like we were in the military and she was rigid and she was strict. I mean, she was by the book, but boy do I, do I respect her now and appreciate her, because I, you know, at the time you don't realize what you're being prepared for and it's only after you've had that experience and reflected back that you recognize that you, that she prepared you very, very well. SS [08:34]: That's great. Do you remember, can you tell me a little bit about going to New York City for that portion of the program? PL [08:41]: The program. I loved it. I loved getting back to the city. Oh my God. That was one of the perks and benefits that put me in nursing, I knew that I would get back to the city for two years and it was just wonderful. We lived in a dorm, we lived in two dorms. The first one was on 20th Street, East 20th Street between 2nd and 3rd Avenues. And it was an older building that was, the norm at the time. But it was, it was just really nice being back in New York and just not being isolated and the having the flexibility to just move around. Plus, I was from the city, so I was able to get back and see my friends and my family. It was just really nice being back in New York. And then after about, maybe �about a year, a new dorm was constructed on 38th Street. So, we moved from Fahnestock on 20th Street to 38th Street. The newer building was more aligned with the newer construction that was going on at the time. Fahnestock was one of your older buildings. It was very homely. And so, it had a nice quality to it. The newer dorm was just like a regular building. But it didn't have the architecture that the old dorm had and it just didn't have the home feel that the old dorm had. But you know, it was just a dorm and we made it work. SS [10:15]: Are there any memories you - that come back to you from your time in New York? PL [10:21]: Nothing that really stands out because here again, there was one other student of color, her name was Gloria Hairston, and she too has made her transition and passed on. So, it was just Gloria and myself in the dorm and even in New York, I'm talking about now as a student, we really were not, hang on one second... Even in the dorm we would essentially go to class and then just disappear because even back here in New York, we were not part of the Skidmore nursing program back here in New York. So, it was really nice to be back in New York. All I had to do was go to school, go to class, you know, do my work. But I didn't have to worry about being isolated anymore. SS [11:18]: So, I’m excited to talk to you about your career after you left, Skidmore. What path did you take? PL [11:23]: So, once I graduated, I worked as a nurse in the emergency room and the intensive care unit at one of the public hospitals here in New York called Lincoln Hospital. And I don't know if you've seen the movie, The Godfather? SS [11:40]: I haven't. PL [11:41]: Okay. So, in that movie, The Godfather, there is a scene where, Marlon Brando gets shot and he's taken to a hospital. Well, the hospital that was used in The Godfather movie was where I worked, and I was there when they were shooting that particular scene. And it was so interesting because that was, Lincoln Hospital, it was named after President Abraham Lincoln. It was previously a home for formerly enslaved African Americans. And after slavery was ended, it was converted into a hospital and named Lincoln Hospital. As a matter of fact, I worked at Lincoln before I actually took my nursing boards. In those days, and I think it still exists, after you finish your first formal year of nursing [education], you could take the licensed practical nursing boards and work as a practical nurse. I certainly was not privileged and I didn't have, my family didn't have money, so I actually had to do that. After I completed my first year of nursing, I took my licensed practical nursing exam, passed, and worked as a licensed practical nurse during the summer so that I could get money to go back to school in the fall. And then, once I completed my full nursing studies, then of course I took my registered nursing boards, and passed those. So, I had already begun to work at Lincoln as a practical nurse. So, of course, once I passed my registered nursing boards, I just continued. SS [13:25]: And what path did you take, I know you’re a Nurse Midwife now. So how did you �get there? PL [13:28]: Now that is really interesting how that transition occurred. I worked at Lincoln for many years. Then I became a mom and it was difficult for me to do the night schedule and the weekend schedule, I wanted something that was more Monday through Friday, nine to five. So, I transitioned and worked for a foster care agency as the nurse who coordinated the medical care for children who were in foster care. And I did that for a while. And while I was doing that, I learned about midwifery. I had always, always loved OB. I mean always when I was in nursing school, OB and peds were my two favorites. And those were the ones that I really excelled in. I learned about midwifery and I said, ‘oh, I had not known about midwifery.’ I knew about midway from when I was growing up in Jamaica because in the Caribbean, midwives are utilized a lot. But I didn't know that there were midwives in the U.S. and when I learned that there were midwives in the U.S., I said, ‘that's what I'm going to do.’ So, I applied to Columbia University. They had a program in the graduate school of nursing and I applied and was accepted. I went to midwifery school for two years, from 1980 to 1982. During that time, going to midwifery school was very, very challenging because, back in the 80s, the only way you could do midwifery education was full time. That has subsequently changed. You can do midwifery school now part time. But in those days, back in the 70s and 80s, you had to go full time and it was two full years, four academic quarters, four academic semesters. I always tell people, had I known, had I had a crystal ball and knew how rigorous that program was, I don't know that I would have ever started. But once I was in it, I was in it and I vowed to see it through to completion. And I'm glad I did. But it was probably one of the most grueling courses of studies I have ever undertaken. SS [15:46]: And then so, what was your career like after becoming, getting your licensure for midwifery? PL [15:52]: It was, it was wonderful. It was absolutely wonderful. I went to work at Harlem Hospital, which is also one of the public hospitals here in New York. I have always vowed to work in the public system. That's where most people of color are, most underserved populations are. And historically these populations have believed that because they are poor that they have to accept second class health care, second class medical care. And I went, I, so I've always worked in public systems because I always wanted to dispel this myth that because you receive your healthcare in a public institution, that you're getting second class medical care because that for me was not the case. And so, I went to Harlem. Harlem was my, was my only, employer. I stayed there for 30 years. I went in as a brand-new midwife and left as a retiree and it was just absolutely wonderful. During those 30 years the women taught me how to be a good midwife. I had the opportunity to see health care, to see many things come and go. I was there when HIV started. I was there when HIV became an issue for women. At Harlem Hospital we took care of the first pregnant women with HIV in New York. I was there and eventually ended up developing an expertise in taking care of those women, HIV infected women, and women whose pregnancies were complicated by drug use. I really developed an expertise. In the 80s and 90s, that's pretty much what I did. And then, once crack and HIV somewhat subsided, I branched out into the total range of women's �reproductive health care and that's what I did until I retired. It was really a wonderful, wonderful career. So now I am more involved with the administrative part. I'm on the board of the American College of Nurse Midwives, which is the professional organization for midwives. I'm also now the chair of one of the committees in our organization which is called the Midwives of Color. Our goals and objectives are to promote the recruitment, the retention and the graduation of underrepresented racial and ethnic groups - primarily African American, Latinos, Asians, indigenous Native American students, and Alaskan Native students. So that's what I'm doing now. SS [18:55]: Do you see a big change in the field, since you’ve moved to the more administrative side of things? PL [18:58]: Well, midwifery has changed considerably from when I was educated. First, the amount of information that students learn today is almost quadruple, but I had to learn in 1980. Healthcare has changed, technology has changed. Health care, the amount of information the students now have to learn is completely different. I learned about HIV and chemical dependency and drug use as a professional, whereas students are now learning about it now. The, clinical expertise of midwives has expanded. When I was a student, we were primarily relegated to prenatal care, labor and delivery and we did some reproductive women's health care. Now we are doing just a lot of procedures. Midwifery practice has expanded into midwives doing sonograms, midwives, do a lot of the technical skills that you would see a lot of physicians doing. We do terminations those of us who, acquire the education and the skills. So, midwifery in terms of the practice has just changed dramatically from when I was a student and even a beginning practitioner. SS [20:27]: Um, how do you think your Skidmore education helped you with your career? PL [20:29]: Well, in terms of my preparation, it was certainly very valuable. I mean, I, when I walked into Lincoln Hospital as a nurse, I was prepared. I knew exactly what to do, and actually, I actually excelled. But I also think it was very helpful when I went to Columbia, when I went to graduate school. That was also very helpful. So, I mean, as traumatic as my undergraduate days were at Skidmore in terms of my ability to successfully navigate graduate education, it helped. SS [21:05]: And remember we spoke a little bit about this, but you didn't seem to have too much of an opinion about the closing of the program? PL [21:11]: You know, I don't know anything about the closing of the program. When I finished Skidmore, I just wanted to run away. I didn't want to have anything to do with Skidmore. I just wanted to get out. And when I got out, that's exactly what I did. I didn't look back, period. I didn't go back to Skidmore. I didn't go back to campus for many years. I think I first went back for a reunion maybe about 10 years ago. I had not been back to Saratoga and I hadn't done anything with Skidmore for many years. It was just that traumatic. So, I didn't know when the school closed. I learned about the school closing maybe five or six years after the school closed. I didn't know anything about it. I didn't read about it. I really just wanted to drop off the face of the earth as far as Skidmore was concerned. �SS [22:01]: What was it like being back? PL [22:05]: Well, the biggest thing of course is the campus. I was raised on the old campus, whereas everything is now on the new campus. They were just building the new campus when I left. So, the new campus is completely new for me. My days were spent on the old campus and I have to tell you, I loved the old campus. The old campus was beautiful. I don't know if you've had any contact with the old campus, but we loved the old campus. We loved those buildings. Oh my God, they're just so gracious. For me the new campus is just brick and stone and it's cold. SS [22:42]: Yes, I do have those feelings, especially in the dead of winter. PL [22:49]: Yeah, the old campus was not like that. I mean the old campus was just really, really warm and I missed, I’m not even talking about just the building, just the whole feel of the campus, it's completely different. That campus had a sense of community where that I'd never, I mean by the time I graduated, maybe, I think McClellan was finished, Kimball was finished. I think there were maybe only two buildings and none of us ever wanted to go to the new campus. So, we were glad we didn't have to. SS [23:37]: I guess my last question would be, what does it mean to you to be a nurse? PL [23:40]: Well, I have a background in nursing but I'm not a nurse. I'm a midwife. And those are two completely distinct and separate professions. They do completely different things. And that's something that we find ourselves having to explain all the time. It's hard to explain. Nursing, is a distinct profession. Midwifery is a distinct profession. Midwives are directly responsible for patient care. In other words, we have to assess and make decisions. Not that nurses don't, but it's a different kind of decision. So, while my background is in nursing, my profession is that of a midwife. SS [24:39]: What does that mean to you? What is your purpose as a midwife? PL [24:40]: My purpose is to number one, acquire the information, the knowledge and the skills that I need to render the best medical care that I can for women. And I think that I was very successful in that. One of the hallmarks of midwifery, we talk about this a lot, is that midwives listen to women but we do a lot more than just listen. We literally do a lot, in addition to just what you would expect us to do in terms of having the knowledge, having the information and having the technical skills, we do a lot of teaching and a lot of education. And that is just so important and it's not valued. Teaching, counseling, educating patients... It's not valued in medicine, but that's really what, what individuals need to keep themselves healthy. I think the bulk of Americans, if they understood that their own health is literally in their hands, if they only had the information. And so, I spent a lot of time teaching, you never left my office without a handout about something, never. And we would talk about it on the next visit. You never left me without having something in your hands to read that was pertinent to you. And the women valued that because no one had ever taken the time to talk to them. And that's what they loved, is �talking. Because it says that you were engaged in their healthcare and, one of the problems is that people, both providers and, and women, tend to think of health care in one direction - from the provider to the patient. But it's, it's bidirectional. Patient to provide, provider to patient. But we have socialized Americans to believe that it's unidirectional. Provider to patient. And so, they have, they have accepted that dynamic, that relationship. And so, to have someone like midwives who say, ‘no, no, this is a by directional relationship here. This is a relationship.’ And that's another thing when I provide health care, it's a relationship. It's building a relationship. By the time, for example, by the time I retired, I was attending the birth of children I had brought into this world. I was now attending their children's births. That was amazing for me, to know that I had attended the birth of someone and 18 or 20 years later here I was, that this individual is now a young adult and they have entrusted me with attending the birth of their child. SS [27:47]: That’s incredible. PL [27:48]: It was. The first time it happened, it was an absolutely weird feeling. I remember the grandmother, this woman came. I walked into the room, they didn't know that they had me in common. And so, the grandmother, who was my patient, pointed to me, I mean, she was literally in my face pointing as she was trying to get, the words out. She kept saying, “it's you, it's you, it's you, it's you”. And I didn't know what she was talking about. And then by the time she calmed down, she explained that I had been her midwife and had attended her birth. This was her child whose birth I was now attending. SS: Wow that is so great, thank you for sharing that with me. PL [28:33]: Yeah, no. You know, I look back, even though it's been almost 10 years since I've retired because, I live close by in the neighborhood, I see the women all over the city. There's no place I can go in New York as big as New York is. I cannot tell you how many times I am literally walking the streets and someone says to me, ‘Hi Ms. Loftman, you don't remember me, you were my midwife, you did this, you did that.’ I mean, I'm in Costco, I'm on the bus. It's just amazing. SS [29:09]: Wow. That's great. That actually used to happen to my grandfather a lot. He was a neurosurgeon. PL [29:15]: I didn't hear you. SS [29:16]: I said that used to happen to my grandpa whenever we were out, he was a neurosurgeon and people would always come up and say the same thing to him. PL [29:26]: Yeah. that's when you know you've made a mark. That's when you know, if you close your eyes and make your transition today, you left your mark behind in the world. SS: [29:40]: I think that's all the questions I have for you if you want to go ahead and stop recording. �� Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Patricia Loftman '71 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 29:46 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Patricia Loftman, Jesse O'Connell Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Patricia Loftman '71 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio Interview Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. April 5, 2023 Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/62ba7e0aa9205173d4fdc56de0f5798f.JPG 9e0b0b910b2bc1c9de1669a066c47184 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/46417c11384a8690d42e958c43fbfac4.jpg 7ccc4e82547e6c6dfb1b43aee7a72f82 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Description An account of the resource Nursing Program brochure cover, 1962. Rory Pond '65 (left); Janet Allan '64 (right) https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/c046380e4468d6b65e635a1e0f9200fc.mp4 74b6075b34c0d6ca7001d6c890f4959b https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/439b811781c7a4c2f5b911171c1715a2.pdf 9ec19f3d8753832f66779ea64c69dd0f PDF Text Text Interview with Janet Allan '64 by Emma Griffin '19, COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, April 15, 2019. NOTE: Below is an edited version of the audio interview, some information and details have been reordered, removed and grammar corrected by the interviewee for ease of reading. EMMA GRIFFIN [0:00:47]: Where were you from when you decided to attend Skidmore’s Nursing program? JANET ALLAN [0:00:52]: I grew up in Roslyn, Long Island and attended Roslyn High School. EG [0:01:02]: Second question. Did your family have a background in the field of medicine? JA [0:01:07]: No, no my parents had no medical background...I'm a first generation American. My parents immigrated in 1930 from Scotland and they left school in ninth grade. They believed that education was the path to a better life for their children, therefore, they supported my goal to attend college. EG [0:01:24]: Gotcha. Third question, what was your educational background before you joined this program or your work history? JA [0:01:54]: Aside from babysitting, I worked age 12 until high school graduation as a page in the town library, The William Cullen Bryant Library (he lived in Roslyn and was a poet and newspaper editor). I had a social security number from age 12. I worked after school 3 days a week from 4-6 and 40 hours per week in the summer. I was able to save most of my earnings for college. Though Roslyn was a public high school, it was considered an academic high school. 95% of my graduating class went to college. If I hadn’t been a nursing major, Skidmore would have given me two years of college credit for my work in HS. EG [0:02:21]: Gotcha, wonderful, wow! Um, let’s see...ok, part two is program questions, what drew you to the Skidmore program? Why did you want to go? JA [0:02:44]: When I met with my high school guidance counselor in my junior year, he offered only two options for female students; nursing or teaching. I was very shy so the thought of teaching scared me, so I chose nursing. The guidance counselors were woefully behind the times not only in career options for women but about nursing education. He said, ‘Well, you just have to go to a diploma school to get your nursing.’ I wanted to go to college and knew there were nursing programs at certain colleges. This goal was supported by my former babysitter who had graduated from Adelphi University’s nursing program. She encouraged me to apply to several college programs in the State. So, I applied to several schools including Skidmore. I didn’t really think I would be accepted at Skidmore (again my Counselor said that no woman from Roslyn had ever been accepted) or could afford the cost. I loved Skidmore’s nursing program which had an excellent reputation but I had no hope of being admitted. Three of us were accepted �(two nursing majors and an English major). I had only applied to New York State schools because I had earned a New York State Regents Scholarship and a New York State Nursing Scholarship, both applied only to New York State schools. New York State offered a 4-year Regents curriculum to all high schools which required extensive exams at the end of each year. Long story short, I was accepted at Skidmore with a full 4-year scholarship as a work study student. I worked in the library as a freshman and in Health as a nursing aide as a senior. This scholarship and the funds from the Regents scholarships enabled me to attend Skidmore EG [0:04:51]: Wow, that was all determination there! JA [0:04:55]: Well, I was very fortunate. EG [0:04:59]: Yes. Well, let’s see...you kinda talked a little bit about your sense of the program before it started, so it was, I would assume, something that you were very excited about JA [0:05:14]: Yes, I had thought a lot more about nursing and became more excited seeing the curriculum that Skidmore offered as well as the two clinical years in New York City. EG [0:05:39]: Fair enough. Um, tell me what it was like in the program, what was the structure of the program and what classes did you take? JA [0:05:46]: Okay. Well, it was a totally lockstep curriculum. The first year was nearly all science with one required Freshman English course. The sophomore and junior years were in New York City and the courses were year-long with no summer breaks. I don't know if you've had a chance to go to the, archivist and see the material I sent. This was the 1960-1964 curriculum. EG [0:05:50]: Yes, yes. JA [0:06:00]: Okay. So, freshman year involved a year of chemistry, a year of anatomy and physiology that including dissecting a cat in a year-long lab, a semester of microbiology that also included a lab, a semester of psychology and a semester course in nursing history. Lastly, we had an English course required of all freshman. Our schedule was so packed that we had little time for extracurricular activities. We had the cat dissection for 3 hours. We kept our cats in plastic bags in large garbage cans. I had a roommate who was not a nursing major and she wouldn't let me in the room after lab until I showered because I smelled so much from the formaldehyde, it was a very tough academic year but successfully completing the coursework made us all proud, totally bonded and beginning to feel like nurses. The second year and the third year we were in New York City because of the wide range of clinical opportunities offered. We were mostly at NYU hospital in our junior year except for a week at the VA for a TB rotation. In our junior year we rotated to Cornell Medical for maternity, NY Psychiatric for psych, NYU for leadership and in the summer Community Health at the NYC VNA (my placement in Little Italy) or the city Public �Health Clinics. It was a fabulous two years of incredible clinical experiences and the joy of living and exploring New York City. Grateful patients would leave tickets to the theater or concerts at the nursing faculty office in NYU Hospital. One could see a play or attend a concert almost any evening. We mostly didn’t because we were exhausted and had to study. EG [0:08:06]: Oh, keep going, yeah. JA [0:08:09]: I think we were about 30 of us that eventually got through the first year and could continue into the sophomore year in NYC which began in the fall. That summer, I worked as an aide at a county hospital on Long Island. It was a good experience and I learned a lot. To house us in New York City, Skidmore rented two floors in the NYU medical student dorm, which was a 12-story building on the East River at 30th and 1st Avenue. We also housed the NYU female medical students, all 4 of them. How things have changed. The sophomore 12-month curriculum involved skills lab to learn basic nursing skills and rotations in adult medicine, pediatrics and a week-long TB rotation at the VA. We had didactic classes with each rotation. These courses were given in a classroom at the Hospital. We did all of our clinicals (except TB) at University Hospital on 20th St and Second Ave. We walked the 10 blocks down 1st Ave, past Bellevue Hospital and the VA to University Hospital. NYU Hospital was private so we worked with community-based MDs who were very kind to us. We did have to give them our chairs in the chartroom. The skills we learned were pretty basic (bed making, bathing, giving injections, changing a dressing, taking vital signs, and transfer of patients from bed to chair. These seem minor skills compared to what students learn today. We were at the hospital every day for lecture and clinical. The hospital allowed us to eat lunch. Since we did not have any eating facilities at our dorm, we all ate huge lunches and took food back to the dorm for dinner. In the morning students either skipped breakfast or ate cold cereal and powdered milk like I did with my roommates. I can’t stand powdered milk to this day. The junior year 12-month curriculum covered leadership (being a head nurse), maternity, psych and community health. I was placed at the Greenwich Village office of the NYVNA (the premier visiting nurse service in the country) and other classmates were at Public Health clinics. I loved the experience visiting patients in apartments above night clubs, restaurants or stores. My classmate and I took a 30-minute bus ride from our dorm to the office. One patient whom I visited lived in a coal cellar. He had had TB and I had to administer an injectable medicine to him each week. We had a wonderful experience, wonderful patient stories about living in Greenwich. That summer was exceptionally hot so the faculty gave us salt tablets to take every day. At that time, Skidmore did not have Psych and OB faculty. So, we had OB at Cornell Medical Center with the Cornell nursing students and were taught by their faculty. So, we were three Skidmore students paired with seven Cornell University students and we did three months of OB. We had experiences in labor and delivery, post-partum care and the �nursery. Then we went to Columbia Presbyterian and did the same thing, joining the Columbia Presbyterian students for three months of Psych. One outstanding experience was accessing the babysitting service run by the Cornell Nursing program. You could sign up to babysit any day of the week and we often took care of UN diplomats’ children. It was a wonderful experience and I had several regular customers, one was a famous pastel artist. We all returned to the Skidmore campus for our senior year. We had 30 credits to take to complete our degree. The courses had to be in the liberal arts (social sciences, literature and history). We also had a 3 credit nursing issues course. Most of us were hungry to learn something besides nursing and expand our minds and knowledge. My roommate and I poured over the catalog and we picked out everything we wanted to take, most of which were, literature, art courses and American Studies. We ran into problems with upper division courses that required freshman or sophomore prerequisite courses. We needed upper division courses and didn’t want to take the lower-level courses. In trying to convince faculty that we could handle the upper division courses, we found faculty were very uninformed about the nursing major. For example, great doubt was expressed that we could handle the courses and I was told ‘well, all you have been doing is changing bedpans for two years.’ It was pretty shocking, especially what we perceived as a very pejorative or antiquated view about nursing students. But we persisted and many faculty albeit reluctantly agreed to let us take their courses and we all did fine. I loved every course that I took and surprised myself by loving the course on The Romantic Poets. I still have the books. I would just make one other comment. It was difficult returning to campus after two years in New York City. Becoming nurses changed us from girls into very dedicated women. We missed two years of ordinary campus life and I guess had outgrown putting cottage cheese in faculty mailboxes and fraternity beer parties. We had seen babies delivered, walked the streets of New York City providing nursing services in tenements and coal cellars and stayed with patients who died. We were in New York City, in a dorm and there was really no college life. You know, we dated some of the medical students, but there was no real effort on the part of Skidmore to create links with some of the colleges in New York City so that we could have more of a, more of a college life than we had. EG [0:16:29]: Yeah, well, it’s definitely not your normal college experience but it sounds like, wow, transformative. JA [0:16:39]: Yes, it was transformative. The program was excellent and well prepared us for clinical practice after graduation. Skidmore was very well thought of nationally. We had great faculty. EG [0:17:40]: Well, with that, um, let’s, let’s move a little beyond Skidmore. What was your path after Skidmore? What did you do? JA [0:17:48]: My first position after graduation was on the male medical unit in the Bullfinch �building (birth place of ether) at Mass. General hospital. Because BS educated nurses have less clinical experience than Hospital or Diploma educated nurses, the Skidmore faculty urged us all to work for at least a year in a hospital to become more proficient in technical nursing skills. I loved my first position. Despite jitters about not being a “skilled nurse” (meaning having done specific skills like catheterizations over and over) and some mild hazing by the Mass grads, I felt very competent in my skills at the end of a year. The unit I worked on was housed in one big room, with 16 beds, one private room (for alcohol detox) and a nursing desk in the middle of the room. This set up was so different from today’s units. The patients had little privacy. Also different was that most patients had had heart attacks and were hospitalized for a month. We really got to know our patients and their families. One story: A few weeks into working in the unit, a patient asked me what kind of nurse I was. I was startled and wondered if I had made a mistake. I asked him what he meant, and he stated that I didn’t have a black band on my nursing cap (all Mass General diploma grads and the majority of nurses in the hospital had black bands on their hats). After a year in Boston, I decided to see the country and applied for and was hired by the San Francisco Visiting Nurse Association. My sister and I trained across country and set up living in San Francisco. She was a secretary. Because I didn’t own a car, I was assigned to a walking district in an area called the Tenderloin. It was in downtown San Francisco filled with SROs, bars, and shabby restaurants and stores. The average age of my caseload was 85. They were elderly residents living alone on Social Security or pensions in large buildings of SROS. It was a wonderful experience and I loved San Francisco. After three years at the VNA, I decided I wanted to get a master's degree. So, I applied to UCSF and got a master's in Public Health or Community Health and a post-masters in teaching (believe it or not). I loved the master’s program and found that I liked teaching. In 1969 after completing the post-masters, I joined the undergraduate faculty at UCSF. I was fortunate to be hired on a Division of Nursing Grant with the goal of exploring the effects of teaching health science students together. I taught CH and Leadership in the senior year of the 5-year BSN program and had students in an outpatient clinic for CH and for leadership in many other community agencies. In the clinic, we paired nursing students with medical and pharm students and tasked them to interview patients coming to an Internal Medicine clinic. We also organized all first-year health science students into seminars taught by two faculty from different disciplines. The students were paired and had to go into the community and interview a person or family about their health. The students who had such clinical experiences were more positive about interdisciplinary education and had better knowledge about the other health disciplines. This was from 1969-1973. Today, we are still struggling with interdisciplinary education. In 1975, a PH colleague and I wrote a Division of Nursing grant for 3 million dollars to start a Post RN (admitted RNs, BSNs and MSNs) Adult Nurse Practitioner program, the first in California. This was the early days of the NP movement, which was started in the �late 1960s in Colorado by Loretta Ford (nurse) and Henry Silver (MD). The nurse graduates were called Pediatric Associates. We were funded for 3 years to develop this new program. Due to existing prejudice about NPs thinking they were just Junior Doctors, the UCSF School of Nursing refused to accept the grant. Thus, we were housed in the School of Medicine for 3 years. The grant was successful. In 1975, there were no NP graduates to act as preceptors so we had to use MDs. We found many excited and willing to work with the students. We then wrote another Division of Nursing grant for a MS Adult NP program. It was funded, and by then the School of Nursing decided to accept the grant and house us. Since neither I or my colleague were NPs, we decided to go through our own program and I was certified as an NP in 1978. While a program director, I continued to teach and practice as an NP in the Primary Care Internal Medicine Clinic. I was on the faculty from 1969 until 1982 becoming a Clinical Associate Professor in 1981. I was accepted into the USCF/Berkley doctoral program in Medical Anthropology. It was a joint degree in between Berkeley and San Francisco in Medical Anthropology. I was the only health professional in the program and had no background in anthropology. In a year, I caught up with my much younger classmates. I was 39 when I started the program. I did my NINR-funded dissertation fieldwork in Austin, TX interviewing 40 women about how they manage their weight. I had great cooperation from the women whom I interviewed. I completed the PhD in 5 years and was then hired by the School of Nursing at the University of Texas at Austin as an Assistant Professor. I was able to get NINR funding again to replicate my dissertation with African American and Mexican American women. This funding and numerous peer reviewed publications enabled me to become a tenured Associate Professor in 4 years and Professor in the following 3 years. Once I received tenure, I applied for and received funding to start the first Family Nurse Practitioner (NP) program in Central Texas. The advent of the role of NP changed MS education in nursing forever and NP programs became the number one major in most MS programs. NPs offered the public a skilled practitioner who combined nursing and medical knowledge and skills to care for patients across the lifespan. The public began to learn the value of nurses and their abilities. I must say that becoming a NP changed the course of my career. Developing NP programs led to involvement in national NP organizations. I served as President of the National Organization of Nurse Practitioner Educators (NONPF). My background as a NP and my publications about the role, led to my 6-year appointment (4 years as Vice Chair) on the US Preventive Services Task Force. The Task Force developed population-based recommendations for preventive services across the lifespan. Medicare used the recommendations to develop polices for funding preventive services. To finish talking about my career, in 2007, I was appointed Dean of the University of Texas Health Science School of Nursing. I served as Dean for 5 years and was then recruited to be the Dean of the University of Maryland School of Nursing in 2002. I retired in 2013. During these yeas as Dean at two Schools, I served on the Boards of the American Association of Colleges of Nursing and American Academy. I retired with over 150 peer reviewed publications. �EG [0:25:25]: Wow though, and I noticed that you, you spent a fair amount of time working in the jobs that you had, but you went back to school a number of times as well. Wow! If I may say so, you are incredibly accomplished. Gotcha. Well, let’s see...I also, you said you, ah, graduated in the class of 1960? JA [0:25:32]: Actually, it was class of ’64. I started in 60. EG [0:25:35]: Gotcha, ‘64. So, I don’t know how much this will relate to you but, um, do you have any feelings about the closing of the program in 1985? JA [0:025:40]: It certainly made me feel sad that the College had to discontinue such a long standing and excellent major. However, at the time that this decision was made, there was, believe it or not, a glut of nurses and also a decreasing interest in nursing as a career. I know that the College made such a decision reluctantly but were impacted by a declining enrollment and rising costs to maintain the program in New York City. I think the expansion of opportunities for women to almost any field also had an impact. I don’t know if having to leave a more traditional college campus experience to live in New York City for 2 years was a factor in recruitment of students. I do feel sad that many nursing graduates do not give back to Skidmore because of their anger at the closing of the program. EG [0:27:09]: Wonderful. Well, yeah, you actually got my last question in there which was, kind of, how your education at Skidmore has impacted your life, but it sounds like it changed your life. JA [0:27:19]: Many big decisions like where to go to college, where to live or what job to take often reflect “turning points” in one’s life. Such periods often are inherently risky because often one choice is to stay the same and the other is to take a risk. For me being able to choose Skidmore was a big turning point. Instead of living at home and attending a commuter school near my home, I spent 4 years living in two incredible places, meeting people from all over the country and making friends who grew up in very different circumstances than I did. That first big move away from home, enabled me to consider and decide to have my first post-graduation job in Boston and then to decide that I needed to learn more about the country, thus the move to San Francisco. My education at Skidmore well prepared me for my post-graduation positions in Boston and SF. I think Skidmore provided the background that enabled me to be a risk taker. As I look over my career, there were many other “turning points,” for example, I was offered to be the VC of a department in the SON at UCSF versus developing a NP program. The later choice changed my whole career. EG [0:28:54]: Gotcha, wow, wonderful! Ok, and then, is there any other, any other memories or anything else that you’d want to make sure that it’s saved for posterity? JA [0:31:03]: I loved New York City and had a great time living there for 2 years. One bonus to �being there was that grateful patients left nearly every day Broadway show or Carnegie Hall music tickets at the faculty office. So, my roommates and I were able to see some wonderful shows. In addition, New York City offered amazing and cheap restaurants featuring food from around the world. I certainly enlarged my Scottish meal palate. Of course, the museums were free, and offered a do-it-yourself course in art history. EG [0:32:07]: Yeah, I never would have thought of that! That’s so cool! JA [0:32:10]: I also sent you some material from my program in 1960-64. The program brochure featured me and Rory Pond, ’65 (she also was interviewed). It is a blast from the past as we are in white skirted uniforms and nursing caps. I would have been a junior (1962-63) and Rory was a sophomore. EG [0:32:20]: Oh, that was you? JA [0:32:21]: Yeah, it was me. Did you see that? I'm the taller one. That's me. EG [0:32:24]: Oh, yeah, I’ve seen that! I’ve been working on the exhibit so I’ve been putting [unintelligible] Wonderful! Oh wow, wonderful! I think this has been amazing, it’s really good! JA [0:34:05]: I have had a great, great career and it all began at Skidmore. Thank you for listening to my story. � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Janet Allan '64 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Emma Griffin '19 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 34:27 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Janet Allan, Jesse O'Connell Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Janet Allan '64 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 15, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio Interview Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. April 5, 2023 Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/4ad40f672f4e7d200028f1655bf065ef.jpg 4bb658f2065b7310bc5e937a44efb8bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Description An account of the resource Handwritten note from Mary Briggs Segall on back of photo: "Mary Segall in Pueblo, Colorado, December 2022 at Memorial Hall." https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/81d976eabdc48190edba3c41c8be016e.jpg c6b603d5f46067ac5087a17eb5684c47 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Description An account of the resource Handwritten note from Mary Briggs Segall on back of photo: "Mary + husband Burton Segall sailing on a dhow up the coast of Tanzania from Bagamoya to Tanga as Peace Corps volunteers. 1963" https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/d5993416cbb7e1acd12b2d318346c0d2.mp4 b71af601f96e33e1c1072f3619f2abb1 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/991720187bca8e41c33bc3ab4a91a1ab.pdf 039ca63b0c09934ea6708a403da2f8e9 PDF Text Text Interview with Mary Briggs Segall '62 by Gianluca Perrotti '19, COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, May 3, 2019. NOTE: Below is an edited version of the audio interview, some information and details have been reordered, removed and grammar corrected by the interviewee for ease of reading. GIANLUCA PERROTTI: Good morning. This is the morning of Friday, May 3rd. It's around 12:40. This is Gianluca Perrotti here and I am interviewing Mary Briggs Segall, who is a member of the Skidmore's nursing class of 1962. We are about to get underway with this interview. So Mary, just to begin, where were you from before you decided to attend Skidmore's nursing program? MARY BRIGGS SEGALL: Yes, I lived for four years in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. My parents, as I would frequently say, I was born and then we moved; we were always moving, while living in Ft. Lauderdale, attended two different high schools: one was a private school which I attended only in ninth grade. I did not fit in – most of the kids were from wealthy families – they had their own cars and went to parties with smoking and drinking. So, I transferred to the public high school and once again, I did not fit in. Most of the kids had been together since kindergarten and I was a newcomer. Also, my sights were set on going to college. I graduated number 3 in a class of over 800 graduating seniors and won the backstroke swimming championship for the state of Florida. Ever since I was about 6 years old, my father had told me that I would be a nurse and I always did what Dad wanted. So, I was going to be a nurse, but I wanted to enter a nursing program in a collegiate setting. I didn't know the difference between a hospital nursing programs and a program offered through a college. During my senior year I was thinking of going to the University of Florida in Gainesville. They had a nursing program there. And then a family member came through Ft. Lauderdale and stopped over at our home for dinner. When they heard I wanted to study nursing, and go to college, they said, ‘oh, you should go to Skidmore College – that school has a wonderful nursing program.’ Without any further investigation or study, I applied, and was accepted. It was providential to say the least that I ended up at Skidmore because I'm from Florida; I didn’t know really anything about schools in the northeast. I knew about Vassar and Smith, but they didn't offer a nursing program there, I think they had social work. I was very fortunate to have been accepted at Skidmore, and what a wonderful program it was. I just can't say enough about it. I think there were, I don't know 20 or 30 women in the nursing program. I can't recall whether there were 20 or 30 students, but it was not a huge class. It was very selective. It was a wonderful education. So that's how I got there. GP [02:41]: And did your family have any background in the field of medicine or nursing? MSB [02:47]: No – none at all. I asked my father later in life, ‘why did you want me to become a nurse?’ And he said, ‘oh...’ And he always took care of my brothers and I, my brother and sister and I, when we got sick, he was the one who took us to the doctor, took us to the hospital. Dad applied the ear medicine if we had an ear ache. He was the one who really took care of my brother, sister, and myself, and he said, ‘I thought that if you were a nurse, it would make it easier for you to take care of your family if you had studied to �be a nurse and had the skills to help you be a mother and wife, to be able to take care of your family.’ In summary, no one in our family had any background or preparation in medicine or nursing. Our family members were in business. GP [03:47]: Another background question - what was your educational background before you joined this program? and did you have any working experience before enrolling at Skidmore? MSB [03:59]: I was a top student. I was third in my senior class of 800. I was a top student; I took four years of Latin and took the advanced college prep program. I did do some volunteer work at the local hospital. I was not particularly keen on that when I was in the hospital. I didn't care for hospitals, really too many sick people. But I, I went to a wonderful camp. It was a ranch camp, while I was in high school. My parents had their roots in the Midwest. Because we were moving around so much while I was in elementary, middle, and high school, I didn't have many friends; my parents were concerned about my lack of friends and that I was always reading. So, they sent me to this wonderful ranch in northern Arizona where we rode horses and I laughed a lot. MSB [04:57]: I learned about wrangling cattle, ranching and camping out in the wonderful mountains. In addition, we lived for several weeks with the Navajo and the Hopi Indians on their respective reservations as part of the summer program. I loved this ranch and I went back every year from the time after my freshman year and each summer during college and I even took my husband to the ranch after we were married. As I said, I loved it and I loved the Indian cross-cultural experience. If I had known what an anthropologist was, I would probably have studied anthropology. My dream was to, as a nurse, to ride my horse and make home visits to the hogans where the Navajos were living. That was my dream. When we were in our first class of nursing at the beginning of my sophomore year, we were asked to stand up and tell everyone why we wanted to be a nurse. Most people had had a rather crucial moment, like when they were, 10 and they were having their tonsils out and the nurse who took care of them was like an angel of mercy, so they decided that they wanted to be a nurse because of that experience. Well, I said that I wanted to be a nurse because I wanted to ride my horse to visit Navajos in their hogans. I was the only one who had that dream, but that was my dream to do that. MSB [06:49]: In the future, I did not ride my horse on the reservation, but I did visit Indians in my truck. GP [07:10]: And, um, just a quick follow-up to what you have just described, what, what was the name of the ranch you said again? MSB [07:17]: The name of the ranch was Timberline Ranch located in Northern Arizona in the White Mountains. Those summers at the ranch were a pivotal experience for me. I progressed from my first year as a camper to being a counselor, wrangling the horses in the morning, being a bookkeeper for the other girls’ accounts, and then buying turquoise jewelry and kachina dolls for the owners of the ranch who had a shop selling Kachina dolls and Navajo jewelry in the wintertime in Santa Fe. So, I ended up becoming a buyer �for them. I learned how to give greetings in the local language and how to visit the hogans, negotiate the sale of Kachina dolls and the Navajo jewelry from the Indians. I learned how to be respectful of the customs of others: It was definitely an introduction into understanding other people’s culture. GP [08:15]: That story is really an example of why we're doing this project - to capture stories like these. Speaking on a more personal note, I also, I've spent not as far north in Arizona, but I've spent time in Flagstaff and Sedona when I was younger. Such a beautiful state. MSB [08:39]: Sedona. Magical. GP [08:42]: It really is. It really is. MSB [08:44]: Yeah. Magic. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I think it's in my genes in a former life that I was in, because I related well when I lived and worked for 5 years in Jordan... so it was the same sort of red stone. The colors, the sandstone... GP [09:08]: After talking about your work with the Navajo and your life on the ranch, to bring it back, I guess to the Skidmore context, what drew you to this program? I mean, what was it specifically? Was there anything that specifically stood out to you? MSB [09:24]: If you indicated that your major was nursing then you're in that particular course of study; if I started something I was going to finish it. I knew I was going to be a nurse and had selected the nursing major when I entered that first year. I took all the prerequisites - the sciences and the social studies. The course work for the freshman year was pretty heavy. During that first year we were with students in the nursing major for most of the courses, there wasn't a lot of mixing with other students. In the dorm there were students from other majors, but mainly I was in my cohort with the nursing majors and that was fine. Over time, we got to become very close. MSB [10:20]: Some of the courses were harder than others – some were courses that I didn't have a lot of experience or prior knowledge of. I remember sociology, sociology was difficult for me... but, I did well with my courses and then for my sophomore and junior years went to New York City for clinical study and practice in the hospitals and on the streets of New York for public health. My goodness, I must say that I was not your ideal nurse at the time. I didn't really understand what it meant to study nursing as a vocation. I didn't have an idea of what nursing was about although I had this dream that I take care and visit the Navajos on my horse, but I didn't have an idea about the practicalities of being a nurse. So, there I was in the hospital, I was nineteen. Being in New York was so much fun. I had two roommates, Judith Fox and Laura Stanley and we were terrible. MSB [11:26]: We lived in the residence hall for students studying to be physicians at New York University. Skidmore had rented two floors in this building for their nursing students. Judith, Laura, and I shared a two-bedroom suite with our own bathroom. We would dye our hair blonde with Lady Clairol so we had the same color of hair. We each had our mothers' racoon fur coats, instead of walking the 10 blocks between the residence hall �and University Hospital we would frequently take a taxi, as we were usually late, so we would sashay up to the doors of the University Hospital in the taxi, with our raccoon coats and our blonde hair and we waltzed into the hospital to take care of patients. We were not your ideal students of nursing. And I think I went to every play that was playing on Broadway, standing up of course. I just had a wonderful time and I also remembered that I um, I felt really sad for the patients who were so sick. And so, I didn't find my calling until I reached the last course of study in the summer of my junior year – public health. I fell in love with public health; I loved walking the streets of New York to visit the families on the West Side who came mostly from Eastern Europe. I enjoyed being able to go into their homes (small apartments) spend time, have a cup of tea and get to know them. I felt that for the people in the hospital; we took everything away from them; we took away their personhood. There they were in that bed, in the hospital, and I didn't know them as a person. I loved being a visiting nurse. I did really well in that final course in public health. I got and received an A + on my final paper. MSB [13:39]: I did fine with the course work during my sophomore and junior years and as I said, I loved being in New York City, had a grand time with my two roommates, had a boyfriend who ran a mosaic shop and I invited my classmates to his shop to make a mosaic table – life was full of adventure and discovery. For my senior year, we returned to campus in Saratoga Springs, and that too was a wonderful experience. For one reason, we were mature, probably more so than many of the students who had remained on campus. As nurses, we had encountered people who were sick, dealing with illness, dying and trying to learn how to help them... in short, we had a lot of life experience. During my senior year, I discovered my interest in political science. I very much enjoyed Dr. Baker, the professor who was chair of the American Studies program. It was very exciting to have the exposure to this range of studies – such a wealth of information to be exposed to during my senior year. As you recall, in the early 60s, Skidmore was a woman's college; thus, our weekends consisted primarily of going away to a men's college or else having the guys visit us. At that time, there were 109 bars in Saratoga Springs... I found it pretty boring to go on a date in Saratoga Springs because one just went to a bar and drank and I would watch the clock to see when we could return to our dorm before curfew, which as I recall was at 1:00 am. MSB [14:41]: To avoid this, I got a job as a ski bum, at Killington. Rocky Stone, who lived in Albany, would drive and pick a group of us up in his hearse; by the time he arrived, he was usually inebriated. I would drive the hearse north to Killington (as I was sober). Rocky had a cabin (no heat) only a wood burning stove and we would all stay in this very cold cabin. I did not have much money, as my father had refinanced their home to pay the cost of my attending Skidmore, so there was not much money left over for extras. I got a job at the Killington ski-lift taking the blankets off the chairlift at the top of the mountain. That was cold too. I did this for half a day and would ski the other half of the day. That was how I spent most of my weekends, which was interesting, fun, and different. During the week I studied. During spring semester of our senior year, we had one course on Nursing Leadership and getting ready for our next steps. The course was taught by the director of the Nursing Program, Ms. Agnes Gelinas. She was a wonderful and gifted leader and teacher. One of her gifts was to believe in each of us and to find out and �support our dreams. Um, you know, we had a, um, during my junior year, John F. Kennedy as part of his campaign promised that if elected, he would form an organization called the Peace Corps. MSB [15:47]: During my final clinical conference of my junior year, I asked for guidance from my nursing instructors. I said, ‘I’d like to work abroad, internationally when I graduate.’ I asked, ‘how would I do that?’ They were rather dismissive of my question and said, ‘there are really no opportunities.’ I persisted by asking, ‘what about working with the World Health Organization?’ They responded by saying, ‘you have to know something; you're only a new grad and you don’t know very much. You need experience. Maybe in 20 years, you would be able to get a job with the World Health Organization, if you had some international experience and were proficient in another language besides English. Maybe you could be a missionary.’ I was an Episcopalian and nobody had ever come to our church to talk about their mission work at an Episcopal mission overseas. I had no idea how to go about being a missionary at all and it was not very appealing to me. Then, two instructors said, ‘your shoes are not very well polished and you always have a problem with the way your hat sits on your head.’ That was the end of the conference and my dream of working internationally as I knelt down on my knees and polished my shoes. However, during my senior year, just after Thanksgiving, I was sitting in the coffee shop on campus where the post office was... I was reading the local newspaper and I read about that somebody was coming to campus to talk about the Peace Corps because John Kennedy had kept his campaign promise to the young people at Michigan State University, that he would fund the formation of the Peace Corps. His request had resonated with me: “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you could do for your country.” MSB [17:54]: Thus, when I read about someone visiting the campus to talk about the Peace Corps, I attended the presentation and learned about the application process. I persuaded my roommate, Laura Stanley, to drive to Albany to take the entrance exam at the post office. (I recall how cold it was in that room), in December or January. Then, during the spring semester we had a final course in nursing with Ms. Gelinas on nursing leadership. It was a seminar-capstone kind of a course, but we didn't call it a capstone course in those days. We were asked to write a final paper and I shared with Ms. Gelinas of my dream and how I had applied to join the Peace Corps. As I have mentioned earlier, Ms. Gelinas believed in each one of us, and could see the potential that we had even though others would wring their hands with the things that we were doing (or not doing). Thus when Ms. Gelinas heard about my desire to join the Peace Corps, she said, ‘Oh Mary, that's wonderful. I think you should go to Washington and have an interview with the recruiters and get a sense for what it would be like. Remember you need to be prepared. You need to prepare your questions and write them down on 3x5 cards.’ MSB [19:24]: Ms. Gelinas also directed me that I should write to people who were working overseas, and find out if any nurses might already be in the Peace Corps since a year had passed since the founding of the Peace Corps. I carefully followed the directives of Ms. Gelinas. I took the train from Saratoga Spring to Washington DC where I had set up an interview with Sally Bowles, Chester Bowles' daughter. Chester Bowles was ver �prominent in the Congress, and would later become Ambassador to India. Sally, upon hearing that I was completing a nursing program was delighted that I was interested in joining the Peace Corps. She said, ‘I've just returned from Tanganyika (in 1964 renamed Tanzania. We are forming, at the request of the Tanganyikan government, a program to send nurses who have joined the Peace Corps to Tanzania. And you'd be perfect. You're a nurse, you're graduating, you'd be perfect to go over there. And, by the way, you'll probably get married because there are 30 engineers in Tanganyika that are a part of the first group of volunteers.’ MSB [20:28]: I restrained myself from saying, ‘Yuck.’ Getting married was not on my agenda. The Peace Corps was in its early stages of organization and had lost my application, so I submitted another application and got everything together. Lo and behold in May, 1962, I received a letter inviting me to join the Peace Corps with an assignment to Tanganyika. I was the first graduate of Skidmore to enter the Peace Corps. I graduated with a great celebration with my family - mother and father taking the train from Ft. Lauderdale to campus for the graduation. I then took the board exams for the nursing license in late June. I then started my training as a Peace Corps Volunteer at the Maxwell School at Syracuse University, with 30 other women. MSB [21:45]: It was a wonderful orientation to prepare us for working in East Africa. I soon learned that about one third of the nurses in our group were new grads or only out of school a year, and another third had worked a couple of years and a few are were very skilled. We were assigned to hospitals or places based on our skills. When Miss Gelinas heard that I had been accepted, she wrote a letter to Sargent Shriver, the first Peace Corps director, saying that I was very excited about joining the Peace Corps and that the nursing program at Skidmore had prepared me with the knowledge, skills and competencies, but that I was a new grad and I would need supervision. Sargent Shriver responded with a letter saying that he appreciated this information and would ensure that I had good supervision. I still have these letters in my scrapbook. GP [23:07]: Can you tell me a little bit about Agnes Gelinas? MSB [23:13]: Yes. Ms. Gelinas was dedicated to nursing. She had been the director of the program since its inception in early 1940s. While we were at Skidmore, Ms. Gelinas had planned to retire because she was of the age of retirement; however, President Val Wilson had some health issues and asked Ms. Gelinas not to retire saying he had a pretty full schedule and would prefer not having to find a director of the nursing program as well. Fortunately for me, Ms. Gelinas agreed to postpone her retirement. Our contact with Ms. Gelinas was primarily in our senior year on campus. We didn't see much of her sophomore or junior year as we were with our instructors on the wards or giving lectures in the classroom. I don't recall Ms. Gelinas giving us a lecture in our sophomore or junior years. My experience with her was in the senior year. She was a very gentle woman; and most strikingly she believed in us. As I remember her, she was elderly. I have no idea how old she was when I was a senior, but everyone looked old if they were over fifty. I recall one afternoon when I had an individual appointment with her to discuss my paper, I remember it was hot; there was no air conditioning; I remember bringing her iced tea for �my afternoon conference with her to talk about the Peace Corps. She was very grateful for that. Ms. Gelinas took the train from New York City about a four or five hour ride from New York City to Saratoga Springs. GP [25:23]: Do you think there were any values or skills that you acquired while in the nursing program or from an influential figure like Ms. Gelinas, that helped you or that you utilized in your career? MSB [25:41]: I believe that Skidmore prided itself on excellence, and encouraged faculty and students alike to strive for excellence and this, of course, included our nursing program. In those days (late 50s and early 60s) studying nursing by attending a collegiate program was not the norm. Most students selected a program based in a hospital; it was a very different experience attending college or being in a hospital-based program to study nursing. The nursing faculty under the direction of Ms. Gelinas really believed in what they were doing and provided us with an academic foundation that fostered a spirit of inquiry and reflection about what we were doing. So, I think the Skidmore nursing program gave us a sense of excellence, purpose, direction, and confidence; as I have mentioned before Ms. Gelinas believed in us. It made us feel pretty special, I think. Also, there was an emphasis on team and collaboration with one’s fellow students. I know Laura, Judith and I were pretty close as friends when we roomed together and we stayed together during our various locations of our junior year. When it was time for our team leading experience, the faculty separated us and I did not team lead with either of my two roommates. Faculty believed in diversity, as much as we understood about the many faces of diversity in those days. But I think we're seeing the value of excellence and a certain integrity, about being a member and part of the Skidmore community. MSB [27:30]: The value of academics was important and having a liberal arts foundation. I feel that Skidmore prepared us to be citizens of the world. My favorite liberal arts courses were English and political science. I took a class in drama that was great fun. I was so grateful that I went to Skidmore. It was a small program with an excellent education; I believe I was a bit different from the rest of my nursing classmates – most of them were from the Northeast and I had spent the first 10 years of my life in the Midwest and then middle and high school in the South. When I returned for my 40th class reunion as a speaker about my experiences working abroad, I realized that the differences between myself and most of my other classmates that I was not aware of at the time. I was a fish out of water. I didn't realize how different it was at the time for me culturally. GP [28:41]: I know that you mentioned this earlier about the value of having a nursing program incorporated and a part of a liberal arts education, from what I've learned, it seems that having the nursing program on both the main campus in Saratoga Springs and in New York City must have been a unique experience for you all. Could you tell me a little bit about your experiences or compare and contrast your experiences in New York City to those you had on campus in Saratoga Springs? MSB [29:28]: During our first year we lived on campus in Saratoga Springs in very old houses, �as this was well before the construction of the new campus. I think the houses were a firetrap. I lived in Nelson House, which was at the end of Union Avenue. There was a new dorm, Moore Hall. GP [30:02]: Was it the pink palace? MSB [30:07]: Yes, that was it. GP [30:17]: Because it no longer stands. MSB [30:17]: I was stunned when I visited the new campus – it was amazing. So, our freshman year was very academic, focused on the biological and social sciences. It was a protected and circumscribed experience too. We would walk down Union Avenue with one’s friends to the classroom; we ate our meals in the Pink Palace dorm, it was a selfcontained experience with our fellow students, unless one walked down the hill to Saratoga Springs which did not happen very often except on weekends. I'd never even gone out to the race track or the Spa, those were summer activities and I was not there during the summer and we did not have cars. We just stayed on campus. And then off to New York City for two years. Wow. What a big city and what an experience. We first lived at 30th and 1st Ave on the East Side, overlooking the East River. University Hospital was located at 20th and 1st Avenue. During our junior year we took clinical rotations at three different hospitals: obstetrics at Cornell Hospital and then psychiatry at Columbia at 160th. That was weird and scary. We lived in the same building as the psychiatric patients and at night could hear their screams. Then back to University Hospital for Team Nursing and during the summer public health and walking the streets of the East Side (Hells Kitchen) of New York City. We experienced many parts of the city. MSB [32:00]: It was so interesting. Then senior year, back on the main campus. Since I didn't want to just stay on campus and go to the bars on the weekend, I was a ski-bum at Killington Mountain, which broke life up. My experience was different from most of the other students who were not in the nursing program. They were more embedded in their life on campus and had a pattern and friends on the weekends than we did who had been away for two years. For me being both in Saratoga Springs and in New York City was an enriching experience. Lot of fun, yes lot of fun. I liked it. GP [32:53]: The final portion of the interview questions are focused around the closing of the nursing program. I was wondering how you felt when you heard about the decision to sell the property in New York City and close the program. I know you obviously weren't in the final class of 1985. How did you hear about the closing of the program? MSB [33:15]: Before I respond to that question, I would like to share one anecdote about when I �was in the Peace Corps. GP [33:22]: Of course. MSB [33:23]: I would like to describe how the Peace Corps changed my life and gave my career its directions. First, I was the first Skidmore graduate to enter the Peace Corps, which in retrospect, is interesting. I wonder how many Skidmore graduates over time have joined the Peace Corps. As I have said, during my nursing classes I was not really keen on hospitals – too many sick people. When I ended up being assigned by the Peace Corps to the largest hospital in Tanzania, Muhimbili Hospital, located in Dar es Salaam I was assigned to the pediatric ward, which cares for infants and small children. It seemed to me that most of the kids that I took care of (the infants and children), that by the time they were seen by the witch doctor in their village, and then the health center, to the district hospital to this tertiary care facility where I was, they were really sick and whatever had been tried as treatment had not worked. Most of the kids died and they died of preventable diseases, and as I saw it, they should not have died. They hadn't been immunized for diphtheria, measles, or tetanus. There were accidents where some had burned in a fire. One morning, in exasperation, I said to the medical assistant, ‘where is your public health system?’ He said, ‘Madam, we don't have one.’ That remark and my experience in that pediatric ward changed the trajectory of my life in terms of nursing. I went on to earn a master’s and doctoral degree and I've spent 50 years in public health and nursing. I taught for 25 years in 3 university nursing programs, and then I spent 30 years working in international health on contracts, funded by the Department of State's Agency for International Development (USAID). I have had a very rich experience working around the world in global health and it was all because of education and preparation I had at Skidmore. MSB [35:37]: So back to your question of how I found out about the closing of the nursing program. When I finished the Peace Corps, my husband (I did in fact marry one of those engineers) and I were given the opportunity to study for master’s degrees through the Ford Foundation with a focus of getting technical expertise in our respective fields with a minor in International Relations. My former husband studied sanitary engineering and I studied public health nursing and epidemiology in nursing. The plan was once we had advanced degrees in our respective fields, we were supposed to obtain jobs working overseas in international development, but we didn't receive any guidance on how to work overseas in those days. Thus, following graduation from the University of North Carolina, I accepted a teaching position at New York University where I taught for six years after having had the two years in the same area with Skidmore. During those six years I earned a doctorate degree under the guidance of Dr. Martha Rogers and had two children, William and Erik. So those were pivotal years. I kept in touch with Skidmore through the newsletters, so I read about the closing of the program either through a newsletter or a nursing classmate. I didn't have time to participate in class reunions as I was working, raising my two sons as a single mom, and then working overseas. As I said, I attended my 40th reunion in 2002, but I read the newsletters, so I'd heard about it and I was really shocked and saddened to think that my program was being closed. My understanding was that Skidmore had some very expensive property in New York City �that was used for the nursing program and was sold to build a new campus in Saratoga Springs. MSB [38:22]: As I said, I was saddened by the hearing about the closing and then delighted when I read and learned that the program was going to be reignited, through a relationship with New York University (NYU). I was very happy to hear about that partnership. Thus it continues; I haven't kept up too much with how that partnership is faring, but I do know how the College of Nursing at NYU is doing. They've got a fantastic dean (Dr. Eileen Sullivan Marx) of nursing. The nursing program is now a separate college at NYU, which was always a dream of Martha Rogers. When Martha Rogers started the nursing program at NYU, we were in the school of education, so to have our own separate nurse entity is very pretty exciting. GP [39:18]: I would describe what we are doing is on a public history initiative. I am in a class that includes a lot of history majors, but we also have these non-history majors, that is, majors from other backgrounds. One of the women in the class is in the (HPAC) track. She plans on enrolling in the University of Pennsylvania nursing program after our graduation this summer. So still, we still send students to NYU's nursing program as well as sending students to other nursing programs, but although changed, it definitely survives. MSB [40:17]: Very good, I am glad to hear that nursing is still somewhat remembered and carried on by Skidmore. I would like to add that as I grew older and updated my last will and testament, I included Skidmore College as part of my legacy as I am very grateful to the school for the opportunities that were afforded to me as a result of my education and preparation in nursing. I have been fortunate and grateful. GP [40:38]: Well, I believe that formally concludes our interview. MSB [41:16]: Thank you very much for this opportunity. � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mary Briggs Segall '62 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gianluca Perrotti '19 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 41:18 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Mary Briggs Segall, Jesse O'Connell Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mary Briggs Segall '62 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 3, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio Interview Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. April 5, 2023 Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/0660ae261496941b59b81b45ba0841d9.jpeg b9166cd475824978d15bb37603af787d https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/08525e55a3343c172bb6542d07315ac7.m4a 3b7e60860a34033f85c24ef2039cbc15 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/471d9889f86bde2cb8930eb53e37b0e2.pdf c06861fc76fabfc9e002d3233fbc5e07 PDF Text Text Interview with Deborah Wick '71 by Charlotte Bracklo '19, COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, 2019. DEBORAH WICK [00:00]: Okay. I think it's working. CHARLOTTE BRACKLO [00:02]: Great. Okay. So where were you from before you decided to attend Skidmore's nursing program? DW [00:09]: I grew up in Cleveland Heights, Ohio. Let's see. I did a little college tour, but I don't think that Skidmore was even included in it, so I'm not really sure why I went to Skidmore. And I was so young then. I don't know, my parents did not help me with my college choice decisions and my school counselor really didn't help me much either. So, I'm not really sure how I landed at Skidmore, but I did land there and um, so yeah, it was a good decision for me though in the end. CB [00:46]: Good. Um, so did your family have a background in medicine or nursing or...? DW [00:53]: Okay, so did my family have a background in medicine or nursing? Yes, both my parents were physicians. My mom, um, worked in an emergency room for just a little while and then she had children, so she didn't really practice for very much of her life. My father was a psychoanalyst and so he was a physician and, and became a psychoanalyst then and, and practiced for all of his life. And we, um, yeah... But I did not enter Skidmore with the intention of becoming a nurse. I really had intended to become a teacher. That was my goal all the time while I was growing up. I was like, I was going to be a teacher because I like children and I thought that that's what I wanted to do. And when I got to Skidmore, um, I was there for the first two years. Most of the...most of the nursing students, you know, do one year at Skidmore and then two years in New York City and then one year at Skidmore, but I decided late my freshman year to become a nurse because even though I had no experience with a hospital, I'd never been to a hospital, I don't think. I don't remember ever being in the hospital. I had no idea what I was doing. But New York City... you got to go to New York City and I did not love being in Saratoga. And Saratoga then was not like it is now for you guys. It was a real Podunkville town. It had bars and that was... and a post office, and that was about it. So, I really didn't love being out in the country like that so much. I thought I would, but I didn't like it. And so, the pull of New York City was tremendous for me. And seeing the seniors come back to Skidmore, to Saratoga, they were so sophisticated and so sure of themselves. And when I was a freshman I just, I did not feel sure of myself at all. I felt really, um, awkward and I didn't... I'd gone to a big public high school, I didn't, you know… there were a lot of women for, um, from private schools who knew how to small talk and, and be socially competent, and I just felt like, I just felt so awkward. But seeing �the seniors come back, it was so cool. I was like, ‘oh I'm going to go to, I'm going to become a nurse.’ I can remember calling my dad and being worried because he would have wanted me to be a doctor, of course, not a nurse. So I called, but they were fine. And so I went to New York City and that's how I got into the Nursing program and it turned out that it was a wonderful career for me. And, um, except that I had a lot of trouble at the beginning of getting used to blood, but after I got used to blood then I did all right. But anyway, that's what I did. That's how I got to be a nurse. CB [03:39]: Were there, just based on what you just said, can you, like incidences that you remember where, like, your fear of blood was an issue? DW [03:49]: When I, when I finished, um, Skidmore and graduated, I got married right away and um, my husband and I moved to California, to Berkeley. And, um, I worked one year as a med-surge nurse and I did get used to it pretty quickly. It just wasn't a huge deal. It made me woozy for a little while and then I just got used to it I guess because you're just so busy when you're in nursing, you got so much you've got to do that… I just didn't, didn't have time really to be too worried about it or for it to linger. But I did choose to become a psychiatric nurse. So, one year after graduating I worked in med-surge on a low-income clinic floor, which was great experience. So, all kinds of things. And then I, um, went to graduate school at University of California, San Francisco, and got a master's degree in psychiatric nursing. And I did that for a while. I did that for about eight years after I graduated. But then I didn't love that either, too much. So, I'd had, um, I had a couple... I had my son, my oldest child in 1975. And then, in 1977, I had my daughter and I had her at home. I did not go to the hospital. I did not love the hospital for birth, giving birth. It was not a great experience. And so being in Berkeley and being a young hippie at the time, I had my second child at home. And after that I decided what I really wanted was to become a nurse midwife. And that's... that was my, that was my passion for the rest of my career. It really was a passion. I loved being a nurse midwife. I absolutely loved it. So, when... let's see, so that was in ‘77… I had Sarah and then, um, I had another child, Annie, in 1980. And then finally... so I had these three kids… my husband was... we were living in Athens, Georgia at the time. My husband was at the university. He was an English professor. And um, I know this is not very organized the way I'm doing, telling you this, is it? CB [06:06]: No worries at all. It's really totally up to you. DW [06:09]: Okay. So, then I, um, well I read a lot of... I read a lot of feminist literature at that time. I was reading a lot of feminist stuff and it just happened that one summer right after I decided... after a couple of years after having Annie, after '80, I decided this is it. I really want to go back to school and become a nurse midwife. And so, um, Annie was �born at home also. So, the first one was in the hospital, then Sarah was at home, Annie was at home. Then I decided I'm going to school because I was reading all this, all this feminist stuff. So, I, you know, just said to my husband, ‘look I gotta go, we gotta go to school.’ So, he took a leave of absence and a sabbatical. He took enough time so that he came and took care of the children. And I went to graduate school at Georgetown University and got a master's degree in nurse midwifery. And so that was really the, that was really, I know that's a long time. It was like 10 years after I graduated, but that was really the beginning of my career. When I was working in psychiatric nursing I did work. Um, I worked in the hospital and I did continue in education and then I taught in a baccalaureate nursing program. I taught psychiatric nursing. But really, when I became a nurse midwife, that was the beginning of my career. And that's, you know, my real love. The thing that I really loved to do. So that was my beginning. CB [07:38]: That's, that's really great. Um, I'm just going to base off of the questions that we have and kind of jump back to high school real quick. Um, you kind of mentioned that you didn't really plan on being a nurse, but what was your educational background before joining the program? Like were you focused on sciences in general or...? DW [08:01]: No, I kind of was all over the place. I really didn't know because I, I was planning on being a teacher so it doesn't, wasn't really focused on one thing or another. And I was thinking early education like so elementary school teacher. So I didn't really... no, I just kind of had a general... and you know... Hold on a second, I gotta pick up my phone. Um, and in those days you didn't have as much choice. Like you guys have much of a choice, then you didn't, you just took what you took. You took English, you took a science, you took history, you took, you know, one of everything and it was pretty much prescribed for you. You didn't really get to choose a lot. Maybe, you know, I got to choose my language. I took French, but there wasn't a lot of choice. CB [08:45]: Okay. And then to your Skidmore experience. Um, what was your sense of the program before you started? Did you have, did you know the nursing program existed since you weren't really planning on doing that or...? DW [09:05]: No, I had no idea they existed until I met these seniors who came back from New York City and then I was like, ‘oh wow.’ And I think, um, I don't think any of my roommates did it, but I may have met somebody who was going in the nursing program and they were... I wasn't the only, you know, most people did the 1-2-1 program or one in New York, uhh one in Skidmore and then two in New York City and one on campus. But there were a few, I think there were three other women along with me who had decided later who went, who did the two and two, two years and two years like I did. But, um, so �being at Skidmore was, you know, during those years, I don't, have you interviewed anybody else who's around this age of mine? CB [09:56]: Uh, no. You're my first interviewee. DW [09:58]: Okay. Um, well during those years at Skidmore, we went from being a freshman and having all of these rules where you couldn't do... There were no boys in the dorm. There were curfews every night. You had to wear a skirt to dinner every night. And we used to wear raincoats with our nightgowns underneath them because nobody would know you didn't have a skirt on. But, um, just lots and lots of rules, to our senior year when there were no rules… Boys could come all the time, you could wear whatever you wanted to. So, it was like this huge transition in the culture of, you know, of the country during those four years that I happened to be in college, um, which was fascinating in itself. But um, being in New York City was the biggest... So, my junior and senior year was when most of the changes happened, was between junior and senior year. So, um, we were right on, well, the first year we were on 2nd Avenue and 20th Street and then they built a whole new building for us that summer. And the next year we were at 34th Street and 1st Avenue. So, our first year at, at...in New York, um, we were in a dorm, this old decrepit building really. And the dorm, everything was in the same building. So, you lived upstairs and then you had the classroom and, um, faculty offices were downstairs. So, it was all one building in New York. But, um, the first year was a really decrepit building. So that was very memorable because, um, we even collected a huge jar of cockroaches, I believe, and sent them to the president of Skidmore because this building was so decrepit. We used to cook. We had to cook our own meals because there was no meal service. So, we, and we have, I think we had a couple of hot plates and it was just like, it was kind of crazy for the tuition we were paying. And I think our parents all were up in arms, so they all wrote to the president too. And then the next year they had built this huge... It was an older building, but they had totally renovated it. And it was gorgeous. A gorgeous building with...We got to choose our carpet and our furniture. And, um, it was just crazy. It was just crazy. It was just a time of so much transition for me. But anyway, so that was my kind of Skidmore experience and I never did go back to Saratoga because I was graduated after my, you know, after my second New York year. CB [12:42]: And so, it sounds like you had, you enjoyed your time in New York City. DW [12:48]: We loved being in New York, just loved it. You know, the nursing classes were really small. I don't know how big our class was, but it was small. You know it wasn't like a hundred students. It was like…I don't remember how many, I wish I could remember. You'll have to look that up. But anyway, so it was just this really intimate, um, small group of women and we became very close and we, we would do stuff in New �York. Like we go to a lot of the plays on Broadway. We would go for standing room only because we couldn't afford to get tickets, but we could do the standing room only. We'd go to Broadway plays and we would... I remember my roommate and I went down and we took a pottery class down in Greenwich Village. Um, and we just had a great time. It was wonderful. Oh and we'd do, like we would do the visiting, we had, um, one of our courses was Community Health Nursing, so we would go down to the Lower East Side to these very poor sections, um, with our public nurse uniforms on and we'd go into these tenement houses and, um, deal with people there. It was just… it was a lot different than being in Saratoga for me. And it was really wonderful. I loved it. CB [14:10]: So, you just mentioned a class that you, that you took. Are there any other classes that you remember as like sticking out or any teachers, professors that you had? DW [14:23]: Yeah, I loved all of our nursing courses, I don't know why. I was not a great student my freshman and sophomore year, well I was better sophomore year, but then my nursing two years, those courses were hard. And there was a lot more work for those courses than the ones that we'd have on campus. And, um, but I really enjoyed them so much more, I guess because I was more focused on what I wanted to do by then. And I remember a psych nursing course was fascinating, we went to the VA hospital and dealt with some very mentally ill people. But I remember our professor… Well most of our professors were quite young. There was one older med-surge professor, but our psych professor would have us over to her apartment, which was kind of fun and have lunch, you know, have lunch for us and stuff like that. Yeah, we, yeah, I kind of loved all that stuff. Loved those days. We'd walk up 1st Avenue at night to the library at NYU and use their library. And I don't know, it was fun. It was a different experience. You can tell probably from the experience that you're having, it's a different kind of, different kind of thing, different opportunity. CB [15:37]: Yeah, it definitely sounds different. DW [15:41]: More of an urban kind of thing. CB [15:45]: And, um, so after Skidmore, how did you think what you learned at Skidmore or like the liberal arts program? How did it impact or serve you in your future career? DW [15:58]: Um, you know, it was really good. They, they would always tell us that because we've gone to a baccalaureate program we would, would not have had as much focus on actual nursing skills like um, like starting an IV or, you know, suctioning somebody or something, a physical kind of skill and that is true. We did not have as much of that, but we had, we had a really good basis for decision-making and um, anatomy and physiology �and why you were doing things and how to, how to make decisions about a patient. So, I really felt like it served us very well in that way. And the skills we learned very quickly, you know, because anybody can learn how to start an IV. It's just a physical procedure that you just, after you do it five times, you know how to do it. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't take a lot of judgment or thinking, it's just a... like a thing that you learned to do. And, but we had a really good education and sort of the, all the background stuff on how you make decisions and why you make decisions. So, I felt really, really good about that. Um, and that has always helped me. It's kind of like one of the things we learned was how to learn. We didn't just learn stuff, but we learned how to learn stuff and how to find out stuff and how to, how to problem solve a problem and that kind of thing. So that was really good and that helped me well. CB [17:29]: Good. So, um, you kind of already talked a little bit about your career path earlier, but when you first indicated your interest in being part of this memory project, you mentioned that you opened your own midwifery home birth practice? DW [17:47]: I did. CB [17:48]: Could tell me more about that? DW [17:50]: Yes. Yes, I could tell you more about the home birth practice. Um, so one of the things that Skidmore I think set us up to be was kind of leaders in our fields. I mean, we felt like we knew what we were doing. We felt pretty confident, confident in making our own decisions, maybe. I'm not sure what it was, but we all kind of went off and did our own thing regardless of what we were supposed to do. Do you know what I mean? We could make our own decisions. So, we um, so I... after Nurse Midwifery School, um… well first of all, at Georgetown was a very, um, it was a very good nurse midwifery program and the head of our program was a woman who had actually started a home birth service in the Washington DC area. So, she was very open to alternative methods of childbirth and natural childbirth. And so, I had gone through school with experiences at an out of hospital birth center, I had done one home birth as a nursing... as a midwifery student… and so I was very comfortable with that and I'd had three of my own children by then at home. So, I... so the first thing I did after midwifery school was, I worked in a, in a hospital, in a low-income midwifery clinic and it was great experience for me. But what I really wanted to do was to do home birth because, you know, that's where my heart was. So, I decided I was going to start my own home birth business with, with another woman who lived in Athens, this was in Athens, Georgia, and another woman who lived there. And so, um, we went to a lawyer and find out what the laws were and there weren't as many laws then as there are now about midwifery. But anyway, um, we �had a backup doctor who if one of our patients ran into trouble, she would go and see him. But very quick... Oh, can you hear me still? CB [19:56]: Yeah. DW [19:56]: Okay. I got a call waiting, but I'm just ignoring it. Um, so within, I can't, maybe within the first year of opening our own practice, we started to get quite a few clients. So, we had maybe, we started out with maybe two births a month and then we got up to about six births a month. And right in that period, the doctors in the town in Athens, there were two practices. Each had, I think at the time it started with this, they each had four doctors, three doctors… three or four doctors in each practice, I don't remember. But they were so upset that I was doing what I was doing and, um, they decided as part... I was also teaching part-time at Medical College of Georgia School of Nursing that had a satellite program in Athens. So, I was also teaching part-time because obviously I was not supporting myself with six births a month. So, I was teaching part-time and doing births part-time. They, these doctors, these two groups of doctors got together and decided that any woman who was cared for by one of them could not... none of my students in Medical College of Georgia could work with those, those women. And it was like, what? Because then I couldn't teach obstetrics obviously, right? Because I couldn't work with any of my students, my students couldn't work with any of the patients in either of the hospitals in Athens. It was really crazy. So, then I started to find out more and more stuff. Um, and finally I decided to file a lawsuit because, um, I don't, I don't remember. So, the lawsuit is really, really complicated so I don't want to get into all the details of it, but basically, I filed for first amendment rights for free speech because they, one of the things they complained about was that I would teach women that there were pros and cons of circumcision. Believe it or not, that was one of their chief complaints. The other one was that in the labor rooms, I would let my students dim the lights so they wouldn't have the bright lights on. It was like, these crazy things they were coming out with. So then in the course of the lawsuit, we found it that they definitely, they really did want to shut down my practice. That was their intent. So, the lawsuit became an antitrust lawsuit because I was practicing legally, I had a backup doctor. The only thing that, the main thing that they didn't like, it turns out that they didn't like, was that I was salaried. I was not salaried by anyone. I was... My patients paid me directly. If they needed my backup doctor, they would pay him directly. So, they were upset because I was the only nurse midwife in the whole state who is not salaried by a hospital or a physician and so therefore under the control of a hospital or a physician. They really, they just couldn't deal with that, the independence thing. So, this lawsuit went on for five years and then there was another whole tail end of it, but at the end of the five years they did settle with me. And, um, I ended up moving out of town because my husband wanted to move to Los Angeles at that point. So, um, I ended up moving out of town, which was a good thing �because they kind of sued... it was, everyone was so up in arms over this lawsuit. There were even articles in the Atlanta Journal Constitution about this lawsuit. I mean it was crazy. And I, it was very upsetting for me. It was very stressful. And so, at the end of the lawsuit when we settled, I did get to rewrite the bylaws of the hospital, which was great. And um, they couldn't, you know, obviously they couldn't squash a home birth practice after that. They had to allow the home birth practices to go on and um, but I, but I left town, which kind of was a healing thing for us because I was like the lightning rod in the whole debate. Do you have any questions about that? So complicated. It was really complicated, but I ended up suing ten doctors and two hospitals at the end. It was very traumatic. CB [24:17]: Yeah. No, thank you for sharing that. DW [24:21]: That was the most traumatic thing of my whole career. CB [24:25]: Yeah, I can imagine. DW [24:26]: Obviously, obviously. CB [24:28]: And sorry, just moving on…In LA then, I think you had indicated this as well, you helped develop and run a prematurity prevention program? DW [24:43]: Yeah. That was... so I went to...We left Athens with our kids. My husband got a, um, decided that he wanted to try to do screen writing. So he was, he got a fellowship for the American Film Institute in Los Angeles, so that, and it was right at the end of the lawsuit. So, um, we went to Los Angeles, we moved to Los Angeles. And then, um, I started working for a big Kaiser hospital there. Um, Southern California is basically run by Kaiser. They kind of have a monopoly there, so there are lots and lots of Kaiser hospitals. And I was in a really large Kaiser Hospital and I was working, when I started working there, there were six nurse midwives, by the time I left there were twelve. So, we had um... the nurse midwives had half of the labor and delivery floor and then the doctors had a high-risk area, but the nurse midwives did seventy percent of all the deliveries, we did all of the low-risk deliveries. And we actually did a little bit of the high-risk ones, but not too much. So, there was a floor with this birthing center was half of it, and then the other half was the labor and delivery unit where the high-risk patients would be. And, um, that was an amazing job. We did a lot of deliveries. We would work 24-hour shifts, two midwives at a time and each of us would do between eight and fourteen deliveries every 24-hour shift. So, we were doing, we were just delivering babies like crazy there. And we had excellent statistics. So that was a wonderful, wonderful job. I got �so much experience there, but then we, um...After a couple, after about, I think I was there about three, more than three years and um, they wanted somebody, they got a bunch of money together to, um, have a prematurity prevention program. So, and they wanted somebody to do that. And I said, I'll do it. Sure, I'll be happy to do it. I've never, I'd never done anything like that in my life, but… So, I developed this program, which was really fun. I had lots of money, which was great. I got to hire my own staff. So, I hired a secretary and I think five nurses and we did, um, we took care of every woman who was at risk for having a premature delivery. So, moms with twins and triplets, people who'd had a, uh, a previous preterm delivery, there were all kinds of risks. We would do a risk assessment on every woman who came to that Kaiser. And then when they were high risk, we would, we would have them in the program and then we would do a whole educational part for them and we would follow them through their pregnancies. And then we had the highest risk women, I decided would benefit from midwifery care because, you know, the doctors go in, they do an appointment, it's like five, three to five minutes maybe, but midwives would spend like twenty minutes with the patients. So, you'd do all this education and all kinds of stuff. And these women really needed a lot of education to take care of themselves so they wouldn't have a preterm baby. So, um, so I talked to the head of our department who was this wonderful man and he... we set up this program where the nurse midwives did, I think we would do like three prenatal visits and then the doctor would do one visit and then we do three visits, he'd do one visit. So, then I had my five nurses and my secretary and then I added on midwives for this, for this clinic where we would actually take care of these very high-risk women. I had always felt like midwifery care, low-risk women would be fine because they're low-risk and babies come out really well. You know, they know how to come out. But women who are high-risk need more care and more intention. And by going to a nurse midwife they would get more care and more attention. And so, I always had that kind of philosophy that nurse midwifery care would be really good for high-risk women and as long as the midwives were in consultation with a physician. So, we would have weekly meetings where we'd go through all of our patients and talk about care plans for each one and that sort of thing. But it was a wonderful program. I loved doing that. And I did it for one year and then my husband died, suddenly and unexpectedly. And here I was out in Los Angeles, with four children and no family, and so, I did leave after the one year. It was, it was tough to leave, but I just couldn't do it by myself with all the kids and no family nearby. That, that program crashed and burned for me because I couldn't, couldn't stay and really do anything about it after that. CB [29:48]: Yeah. Well, I'm sorry to hear that, but did you continue working after that or was that...? DW [29:56]: Oh, no, yes, I did. He died of mesothelioma, which is what you get from �asbestos exposure. Even though he was a college professor, so we don't really know how he got exposed. But anyway, he died very quickly. And, um, so then I moved back east with the children to a small town in northern New York State near Albany, actually not far from Skidmore, Cambridge, New York. I don't know if you know where that is. It's not too far from you. It's about an hour, uh, east and just, let's see, where is it? Cambridge, New York. So, it's just east and north of you, I think. CB [30:32]: Yeah, I've definitely heard of it. DW [30:34]: Yeah. So, we moved there. I moved there, because there was a, a little, um, it was a small, it was a small town, had its own hospital and um, there was a doctor with one midwife and they wanted to add another midwife. So, I decided to move there and take that job. And it was a lovely, lovely place to have a baby. Um, once again the midwife did most of the deliveries, the two of us. And um, it was just this country hospital and so you knew the whole family, you know, it was a small town so you'd get to know the whole family. And um, it was, it was wonderful and it wasn't so busy. Obviously, I wasn't doing 14 deliveries every day. I just would do, uh, you know, maybe three or four deliveries a week. And it was just, it was a lovely practice with an older OB-GYN who was wonderful, who supported midwifery and I loved that. It was the perfect job for me for recovering from the death of my husband. And then I did meet another man and who, um, who was the financial aid director actually at Williams College, which is where Sarah, the ones who teaches at Skidmore, and my son both went to Williams College. And so, I met this guy who was the financial aid director and we fell in love and got married. So, he's my husband now. We're married now. Been married since '94 or '95, I guess, yeah, '95. CB [32:10]: That's nice to hear. DW [32:14]: And that was... and then, that was kind of my last, yeah, that was my last midwifery job that I had. Um, after that, after, well he's older, so we, he was ready for me to retire. So, I tried to retire, I'd try. I'd always try and retire and then I'd go back to work because I missed it so much. But anyway, one time I tried to retire and then I went back to teaching nursing and I, we moved to Cape Cod when he retired. So, um, I taught at University of Massachusetts. I commuted and taught nursing there for quite a few years and then we moved here to the south, and I have not worked again now since we moved here. I just decided, I just started volunteering though for the, oh to accompany women who've been sexually assaulted to the hospital. I'm volunteering for the sexual assault center here, but I'm not doing anymore midwifery. I'm kind of, I think I'm kind of done. CB [33:16]: Yeah. �DW [33:17]: I'm 70 now, so. CB [33:19]: Yeah, it sounds like you've done a lot. DW [33:21]: I don't really want to jump out of bed at three in the morning anymore. That was… I did that for a lot of years, that was enough. So, I don't know what else. What have I forgotten? CB [33:31]: No all good. I was just going to move on. So, your daughter teaches at Skidmore now. How... was that inspired by you having attended Skidmore? DW [33:47]: My daughter teaches at Skidmore, was that inspired by me attending Skidmore? No, Sarah went to Williams College actually. She's an artist and she was in New Jersey and it was just a job opening at Skidmore and she interviewed for it and she got it. But it was so totally ironic for me because I had these three different phases of my life of being near Skidmore and Saratoga Springs because I was a student there and then when we lived in Cambridge, New York, we used to go to Saratoga to do our Christmas shopping and stuff. And so, it was like a totally different place for me than when I'd been a student. And then... now Sarah's teaching there, so now we go and I see my grandchildren and stuff, so it's just really weird to me that I've had these contacts with Saratoga and Skidmore all these years on and off and on and off, because I really have not kept up at all with my... I mean I keep up with a couple of classmates on Facebook, but I've not... I never really went back to Skidmore. I never really went to reunions. I just didn't stay in touch with it very much. I've gotten more in touch with it now since Sarah has been there for a few years. So now I was going to go to my last reunion, but then something came up. I wasn't able to, but um, so I've never been to a reunion, but I think I will go now. Um, now that I'm back in touch with it a little bit, but it was just never, I just didn't, it just wasn't the kind of thing I did. CB [35:19]: Yeah. DW [35:20]: I kind of was moving forward, not backwards. I don't know if I answered your question. Oh, so Sarah, no, she's just teaching there because she's teaching there, but she loves that I went there. I mean she loves that. She's more excited about it than I am, I think. She just loves that I went to Skidmore and that now she's there. And she's got a 15year-old and a nine-year-old. So, um, yeah. So, we go up a lot and see them. And in the summer we always go for, um, about a month we'll go up and get a little, uh, house on a lake nearby, near Sarah and will, uh, spend a month there so we can spend time with our �grandchildren. And we go to the races and Skidmore and Saratoga and all that kind of stuff. It's fun. CB [36:06]: Yeah, it sounds great. DW [36:07]: I'm going back and she lives right in town, right on East Avenue. Right in, right in the downtown area. Yeah. CB [36:19]: Yeah, so the Nursing program at Skidmore closed. Do you remember that happening? Did you have any feelings, strong feelings about that? DW [36:30]: You know, I didn't have strong feelings about it because I was so detached from Skidmore. Once I went out to California, I was kind of, you know, the first time after getting married I was kind of gone. I didn't really, um... Oh, that's the part I left out for you. I went to, right after college I went to California. We lived there for six years. Then we moved to Athens, Georgia, and that's where all that lawsuit stuff happened. That's why I got involved in the lawsuit. Anyway, there was that transition. So, we went from California to Athens, Georgia, and then to Los Angeles. So, we had a couple of California trips. Um, anyway, um, I heard about it. I'm sure I heard about it within a year or so after it closing. Um, but I don't, do you know what year it was that it closed? I don't remember. CB [37:25]: Um, I don't remember right off the top of my head. DW [37:28]: That's okay. I think it's sad because it was such a unique program. I don't think there's another program like it anywhere in the country. And it was such a unique program and such a good program and, I don't know, what it was about it, it was just very special. Um, so I think it was sad, but I also know it was probably tremendously expensive to just for this small group of women, they had a whole faculty, a whole building. I, you know, I mean, I... in New York City, in Manhattan. So yeah, that, that must have cost a fortune to run that program and to keep it. Oh, you know, one of the ironies is that Skidmore... at the very, very beginning of the Skidmore Nursing program, I don't know how I know this, but I, but I do know it, they used to use Mary McClellan Hospital, which is in Cambridge, New York, which is the hospital that I worked in when I came back from California after my husband died. So, Mary McClellan Hospital has a whole history with Skidmore as well. And so, it's so funny that you know, your life just goes ’round and ’round. But here I was a graduate of Skidmore and I was working in the hospital that Skidmore used years and years and years before that as a clinical placement for nursing students. It's just interesting. �CB [38:49]: Yeah. DW [38:51]: Kind of an irony. CB [38:55]: So that is pretty much all I have for specific questions. Are there anything, if there's anything else you would like to share, any other memories that stand out from your Skidmore experience or, um, or after that your Skidmore experience had impacted, that you would like to share? DW [39:14]: There was one funny thing that I was going to tell you about and I forgot about it. When we were in New York City, when I was telling you all the things had changed so much over those two years… The first year we were in there, when we were this, in this old building, we had this elevator. Oh, this building was so creepy. Anyway, we lived in this old building and um, we were not allowed to have boys in our dorm, but of course we did have boys in our dorm. So, we would have to sneak them in. There was like a lady at the desk downstairs who would check to see who was coming in. So, we would have all these ruses where we would make up these elaborate plans to distract her or, you know, even burn something on the stove in the kitchen, so she'd have to go in the kitchen, and then we'd sneak all these guys in at once. It was like this. And then we'd have to sneak them out again. And one time, I remember one of my friend's husbands, now, well he became her husband, but her boyfriend had, we had him dress up in a dress and a wig to get out of the building. It was, and they realized of course that this was a man because he was huge. So, somebody was chasing him up 1st Avenue… it was the funniest... it was just, there were so many little memorable things like that. It was just really quite an experience you can imagine. CB [40:33]: Yeah. DW [40:35]: And we'd have, and we would have the, we had a little roof next door that kind of attached to our building. So, if we had boys there that we could, if we couldn't get them out in a day or so, we would let them sit down on the roof so they could get some fresh air. It was just really bizarre. I mean it was just crazy. Anyway, I'm glad things have changed so you don't have to do those kinds of things anymore. Although they were kind of funny and fun to do. CB [41:03]: Great. Well thanks a lot for sharing. DW [41:06]: Yeah, thanks Charlotte. So, tell me a little about yourself. I'm going to turn off my thing. �CB [41:10]: Yes, I'm going to turn off as well. � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Deborah Wick '71 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Charlotte Bracklo '19 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 41:16 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Jesse O'Connell Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Deborah Wick '71 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore's Nursing Program Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio Interview Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. April 5, 2023 Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/cffd8a6110a3a186a632187c725abc4b.png 0b165f041b879387c8681b66057f75d8 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/020ae8bac6d26778a07d36ee330a0c53.m4a 9c184c060c92ea24bb948b0e0107e546 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/49e6846aed03698dab97fc030df32dff.pdf c414c911b75a64f05f43baf2c1e308ed PDF Text Text Interview with Dana Carr '81 by Matthew Chipkin '20, COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, 2019. NOTE: Below is an edited version of the audio interview, some information and details have been reordered, removed and grammar corrected by the interviewee for ease of reading. DR. DANA CARR [0:00:00]: Ok, so it’s going. MATTHEW CHIPKIN [0:00:03]: My first question I have is, were you in school prior to deciding to attend Skidmore's Nursing Program? DC [0:00:18]: First, I would like to thank you for asking me to participate in this opportunity and I would like to provide a bit of personal background. I was born in New York City and grew up in the Bronx. I attended public school and after graduating from high school I decided I would pursue nursing as my career choice. I attended Hostos Community College—a local college in the Bronx. I graduated in June 1975 with an Associate Degree in Nursing, took my licensing exam, and landed a job as an RN at Montefiore Hospital and Medical Center. Shortly thereafter, I started taking liberal arts courses at Lehman College, which is part of the City University education system. In my mind I understood that I would need to obtain a bachelor’s degree but at the time it was just a thought. However, while at Montefiore I maintained my contact with Patricia Sullivan, the lead nurse recruiter. As we discussed my career goals and required continued education, she presented Skidmore’s program as an option for continuing my education. Of course, the rest is history! MC [0:03:05]: What was your general sense of the program before you started? Tell me about your introduction to program - when exactly you were there, what your classes were like... anything of that sort. DC [0:03:26]: This is an interesting question because I had to do a bit of leg work. I had no knowledge of Skidmore other than what Patricia Sullivan shared with me. But that said, I liked the idea of the independent nature of the program. It wasn’t just about completing nursing credits, I had to complete liberal arts credits as well. When I graduated with my associate’s degree, I only had 75 credits. To qualify for my bachelor’s, I had to complete liberal arts credits as well; this would be challenging because of Skidmore’s upstate location. Also, just because I wanted to go to Skidmore did not mean my acceptance was automatic. I had to apply for admission, just like anyone else but that said, I had lots of encouragement/support from Skidmore. It felt nice to be “wanted.” I was allowed to take many of my liberal arts courses, including sciences, nutrition, and philosophy classes at local senior colleges. I really wish I could remember the names of some of my professors who were powerful and supportive mentors, but it was so long ago. I was working at Montefiore full-time, I was raising a family and I desperately �wanted to earn my bachelor’s! It was great that the Skidmore nursing program was in New York City – East 38th Street to be exact. I started the program in 1977 and completed by bachelor’s degree in 1981. My nursing classes were interesting because even though I was already a registered nurse working in a hospital setting, there was much for me to learn. We focused on Nursing Ethics, Community and Public Health, and other areas that were not part of my associate degree curriculum. The clinical training process required me to attend hospitals. I think my schoolmates appreciated having a “real nurse” in class. They asked many questions about my work experiences. When you go back to school, you're a little bit nervous. You hope you are going to meet the criteria for acceptance. You want to be successful. Personally, I felt pressured because the nursing profession was changing, and it was important for me to obtain my bachelor's degree and function as an independent professional. In many respects, Skidmore’s program was in the vanguard. At that time, there were no City University nursing programs that encouraged independent study. I felt regarded for my experience as a licensed professional and I was encouraged to be a leader to my student nurse colleagues; I was respected. I'll tell you one of the things that I really loved was the programs leadership -- the professors I worked with were wonderful caring mentors who showed me that I could aspire to be something more – a nurse leader. Another valuable thing I learned was the difference between an associate degree nursing education and a bachelor's degree nursing education; the value of an advanced degree. I hope that answers your question. MC [0:08:50]: Yes, this honestly is what we're trying to get out of these interviews. How would you compare the campus in Saratoga to the campus in New York City to one another? DC [0:09:07]: The campus in Saratoga was rural and not very accessible. When you go “away” to school you expect to complete your education on campus or locally. Yet, being able to complete my coursework in New York City was a bonus. Perhaps there was the recognition that the trauma center in New York City was the best locations for the clinical experience. Although I was actively employed at Montefiore Hospital, I had to take time off for clinicals. I went to hospitals such as Bellevue, New York University, and Beth Israel. These were wonderful experiences because they provided opportunities to learn about the mission, vision, and values of these organizations as well as their clinical practices and culture. These clinical opportunities opened my eyes to entirely different practice models because, as previously mentioned, I grew up in the Bronx, was educated in the Bronx, and I worked in the Bronx. Having clinicals in Manhattan exposed me to so much more than I could have expected. MC [0:11:53]: Mmm. Awesome. Can you talk more about your experiences after you completed the Skidmore Nursing Program? DC [0:12:08]: I graduated from the nursing program in 1981. I must say that having that �bachelor's degree in nursing, created immediate work opportunities for me. I was able to climb a career ladder at my hospital, Montefiore. I was a head nurse on a medical surgical unit and I expanded my practice into community health. I also enrolled in graduate school. Skidmore opened another door for me and made me think more about career advancement. I advanced professionally, eventually going into home health care where I stayed for many years. I worked as a visiting nurse. I recruited nurses for the Montefiore home care agency which is part of Montefiore Hospital. I also pursued my graduate education in Gerontology attending the College of New Rochelle. I finished in 1986 with a Masters in Gerontology which allowed me to fast track into Nursing Administration. I became a nursing supervisor and eventually an assistant director and a director of nursing. If I look back and ask myself where did that all start, I have a ready answer Skidmore - and I must say, when people ask me where I got my various degrees and when I mentioned, I received my nursing degree from Skidmore College, they look at me and they're like, ‘oh, wow.’ Skidmore has a great reputation as a stellar educational institution. I'm sure Matt, you know that as you've had that experience yourself. MC [0:14:54]: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. When did you learn about UWW closing? DC [0:15:08]: I am not exactly sure when UWW closed, I believe it was sometime in 1985—you will have to check that date, but I know that its closure was/is a loss. Especially since today so many schools have programs that are modeled after independent learning. MC [0:16:24]: What is your contact with Skidmore like now? DC [0:16:52]: I am on the mailing lists and receive ongoing email updates. A few years ago, pre COVID, I was invited to come up for a meet-and-greet. It was great fun seeing young people who are still uncertain and yet very inquisitive about growth opportunities. MC [0:20:01]: This is all awesome. Is there anything else, any closing remark you’d like to make? DC [0:20:17]: I would like to say I considered it an honor to be asked to participate in this interview. I am often contacted by students from various programs, but your contacting me was especially meaningful. I credit Skidmore for getting me where I am today. As I shared previously, in 2013, I earned a doctorate in public health/health policy from the New York Medical College. That was a career affirming achievement. With every application I have ever completed for work, school or other events, Skidmore has always been on the list. For me being a registered professional nurse is a wonderful personal and professional accomplishment. I will never forget the role that UWW placed in my accomplishments. Even though the program no longer physically exists, it continues to exist in my heart and through all on my accomplishments. That said, I am pleased have had this conversation with you Matt. I hope you have found it of value. �MC [0:24:09]: Thank you, Dr. Carr. Yeah, I appreciate it so much. Not everyone answered the first email, so I am glad you were so enthusiastic about this, seriously. � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dana Carr '81 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Matthew Chipkin '20 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 24:37 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Dana Carr, Jesse O'Connell Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dana Carr '81 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore's Nursing Program Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio Interview Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. April 5, 2023 Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/8997234c864fa71e2191e1dc562931bf.jpg bc6829bbf1e05e79a767ba7c5c33257a Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Public History Class Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Spring 2019 Nursing public history https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/182032eb5e97f1dcbd7e173a63593474.jpg 2a5e2d65c0f01e2e157008103ea2d881 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Public History Class Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Spring 2019 Nursing public history https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/8258415beb5efd1acf54e8b37347b0ae.jpg e9122a719692b39490b10f122664fba8 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Public History Class Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Spring 2019 Nursing public history https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/226792c0167bb99c62109adeb2b701de.JPG 58a96c7cfd0cfab02ee65b33a80117b6 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Publisher Publisher of the item, or of the book or atlas in which it appears. Scope Magazine Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Compassionate Hands Presentation Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 1st, 2019 Nursing public history https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/a44cad26fc0b43a511b3c1e76f255b2e.JPG 011c962e77b5e33f4bba2b5dd4fcec98 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Publisher Publisher of the item, or of the book or atlas in which it appears. Scope Magazine Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Compassionate Hands Presentation Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 1st, 2019 Nursing public history https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/dc445f212bee424fa01bff16079a3dc5.JPG 7a0ed74759e2d0f337357378abd8ed5c Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Reunion Weekend Compassionate Hands Presentation Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 1st, 2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Scope Magazine Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Scope Magazine Nursing public history https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/baeee54e168a096046145401d80ef1b8.JPG 9be870771a3b96096e4074d1bf5b71d6 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Nursing Alums Reunion Weekend Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 1st, 2019 Nursing public history https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/905cf4da63c627ba19c2008bff9f4244.JPG a170f012a603a26a850b4c94c277b078 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Scope Magazine Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Nursing Alums at Reunion Weekend Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 1st, 2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Scope Magazine Nursing public history https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/b864265d4b37c6e75c9d1a84863cea47.JPG caca2d737445b223b07c0dadacdf7190 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Reunion Weekend 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 1st, 2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Scope Magazine Nursing public history https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/071db233394566ef40b34338b6fd93bb.jpg 4098179cc94af1c9d6a61aa128169868 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Compassionate Hands Exhibit Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Spring 2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Scope Magazine Nursing public history https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/f9882ec18297afb0ade3908794095d31.png 0b165f041b879387c8681b66057f75d8 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/3f63526cd0a67ad280d2c9aa016b0c35.m4a d865b277c60e4ada0d3895e92c815dda https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/0602d602a8247dbcb8ced4df6fd69871.pdf 4c6785b5f0c044e5dc53f74aa5b436ca PDF Text Text Interview with Laura (Lollie) Triebold '62 by Emma Griffin '19, COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, February 13, 2019, Phone. LAURA TRIEBOLD [0:00:00]: …And so now we’re recording. EMMA GRIFFIN [0:00:03]: Ok, perfect. Um, and so, we’re gonna want to, ah, keep the smartphone right next to you so that we can hear as much as possible. LT [0:00:10]: Yes, I’ve got my home phone on speakerphone. EG [0:00:14]: Wonderful, perfect. Um, and then, ah, one more thing I have to ask you, we want as complete an interview as possible so, ahh, it’s gonna be a little bit awkward cause I can’t really, uh, interject like “mm hmm” or “yeah” that much, but just know that I’m listening and I’m, I’m very interested and very excited to hear it. LT [0:00:35]: Ok. EG [0:00:36]: And um if you’re ok with it I’d like you to kind of repeat back the questions I ask you, uh, at the beginning. LT [0:00:40]: Sure. EG [0:00:42]: Wonderful, thank you so much. Um, ok, so we’re going to start out with the first question: where were you from before you decided to apply to Skidmore’s nursing program? LT [0:00:53]: I, I have been born and raised in Whitewater, Wisconsin. I have always lived here in Whitewater. EG [0:01:01]: Uh, perfect. Um, let’s see… and then, next one is, did your family have a background in the field of medicine or nursing? LT [0:01:09]: Did my family have a background in medicine? Absolutely not. No med-no medical background whatsoever. EG [0:01:18]: Gotcha. Uh, so, where did your kind of interest in nursing come from? LT [0:01:25]: I really can't pinpoint it. Um, you know, in those days and the, in the 50s, you were either a teacher or a nurse. And of course, I think as I explained to you before, my mother wanted to make sure that I had a college education and um, so you know, we �were at odds ends for a while before we figured it out that I could become a nurse and also get a college education. EG [0:01:56]: Gotcha, wonderful. Let’s see… the next one is what was your educational background before you joined this program, your work history? LT [0:02:06]: Would you repeat that question please? EG [0:02:08]: Uh, yes. Uh, so what was your educational background or your work history before you joined the nursing program? LT [0:00:16]: I had a high school education, I was a Valedictorian of my class, and I went directly after graduation to Skidmore the following September. EG [0:02:27]: Wonderful. LT [0:02:29]: I do have two master's degrees if we want to talk about those at this time. EG [0:02:34]: Oh yeah, no, I'd love to. LT [0:02:36]: Okay. In, in the mid-seventies, I took a master's degree at the University of Wisconsin Whitewater campus in guidance and counseling. And then in 1995 I took, oh, in the 90s, I took a master's degree from Marquette University for a master’s degree in nursing at age 50. EG [0:03:00]: Wonderful. Um, the next part is about what drew you to the nursing program? LT [0:03:07]: Well, first of all, it was far away from home. I'm an only child (chuckles) and so I wanted to put some separation in there. Secondly, I had a cousin who was almost like a brother to me who was at Williams at the time. He's four years older than I, and he knew about the Skidmore girls and he knew about the nursing program. So, he was the one that put me on to the fact that I could get my nursing degree as well as a college degree. Um, that was the first thing. The second thing is that I came from a very small high school. There were a hundred totally in the four classes of the high school. And I wasn't, although I applied at Northwestern and at Cornell, I was not interested in the very large campuses. So, I went out to pick up my cousin at William, Williams, you know, I went with his mother and we stopped at the Skidmore campus and had an interview there my junior year. And of course, I fell in love with the campus. It was at that time it was all on Union Avenue, small dorms, um, not maybe the traditional campus setting. But, um, the interview went well and I, I felt um, that, that homey feeling of Skidmore. �EG [0:04:30]: Wonderful. Um, let's see. The next one is, what was your sense of the program before we get started? LT [0:04:38]: Say that again. EG [0:04:39]: Oh, uh, what was the sense of the nursing program before you started? What did you think about it? LT [0:04:47]: I, I had done some research on it and it was, it was one of the best programs. It was rated very highly in the United States. Also, it had the, the one-two-one configuration, whereas the rest of the, both John Hopkins and Cornell and I'm not sure about Northwestern, had two years on campus and then three years, like a diploma program education. And I liked the, the conciseness of it. And um, um, also it was made very clear to me that the reason it was a one-two-one program was at that final year we could be accepted into the higher-level humanity classes and um, that, that emphasis on humanities was important. EG [0:05:35]: Gotcha. Okay, let’s see. Tell me about what it was like in the program. What was the structure of the program and what classes do you remember taking? LT [0:05:47]: Okay. I think on some of the vignettes, I have already sent that out, but our freshman year was basically all anatomy, physiology, microbiology, chemistry, and so of course the nursing majors were all in class together. Um, the, the one class that I did not have, that they separated us out and gave us different sections was English 101 and then I believe both the psych and the soch. Um, we weren't totally together in those particular classes. EG [0:06:20]: Good, wonderful. Um, let’s see…oh, how would I compare the campus portion of the program up in Saratoga to the New York City portion? LT [0:06:31]: How would I compare the what? EG [0:06:34]: How would you compare your experience at Skidmore in Saratoga to Skidmore in New York City? LT [0:06:40]: Well, of course the two different environments, but as far, as far as the academics go that freshman year was tough. It was, it was, you know, we had all the, the five credit science courses I did, they had accepted 400 freshmen, um, that year. And at the end of the first semester, they identified the top 10 and I had a four point and I was one of the �top 10 and they were absolutely amazed that a nursing major would be able to carry that kind of a grade point. Um, it was, it, the academics in, in down in Sara…down in New York were entirely different. We, we knew we were learning things that we wanted to learn. And um, and in the, it was, it wasn't easy. It was rigorous academics, but it was much easier studying and putting your heart and soul into it. EG [0:07:41]: Wonderful. Now we’re going to move on to your career after Skidmore. So, what was your path after Skidmore, what did you do? LT [0:07:51]: Say that again. EG [0:07:52]: What was your path after Skidmore? So, like what happened in your career after you left Skidmore? LT [0:07:57]: Well, I came back to Wisconsin to take state boards and in July and during, during that summer, I interviewed in Chicago and I liked the large city of Manhattan. And so, I wanted to stay in a large hospital, teaching hospital. Went down to Chicago, had about five interviews, probably could have had all five jobs. I took a job at what was then called Pres. Saint Luke's. It is now called Rush Memorial hospital, a large hospital, well-known hospital in Chicago. I started on the pediatric floor and within three months they opened a new section of the pediatric floor and because of my baccalaureate degree they offered me the head nurse position there and I stayed there for about a year, came back to Wisconsin and was engaged and I spent that summer, that first summer after I had graduated, that next summer, as a camp nurse in a couple of Wisconsin girl scout camps. And then as soon as that was over, I had applied at a local hospital, which was a teaching hospital. It was run by the Sisters of Mercy and they immediately told me that they wanted me to teach, not to be a floor nurse and that again was because of the baccalaureate degree. And Agnes Gelinas had cautioned us all, they said, “You will be asked to teach and you do not have teaching skills. Do not go into teaching until you have garnered some teaching skills.” Well of course I wanted the job and I took the job and it was a three-year diploma program where I taught for a year, became pregnant, um, left, left for about, let's see, that was '63, '76, '70 for about four years. And um, then, um, I had an opportunity to have a 12 hour a week job as a county nurse, public health nurse. At that time, I had three kids underneath the age of four, I was milking cows morning and night and running 500 acres, but I kind of needed out. I needed into the nursing. So, um, in Wisconsin you are required to, if you work in, in public health, you'll required to have a certification for public health. Well, as I applied for that certification, I was five years out from school, and so normally the state would make me take other courses. Well, the head of licensing had been in Wisconsin for a number of years. She ran the department �with an iron fist and she called me up and she said “You do not need to take any educational courses. I am very familiar with Skidmore College and their public health program and so I am sending you your certificate.” And so, I did that for a couple of years and then I was offered a position to teach at in the Vo-Tech school, which I did. Um, I, let's see, I taught for a, you call them community colleges out in New York state, but this was a, a Vo-Tech school and they had opened an extension about 12, for practical nurses, about 12 miles from my home. And so, I taught that program for almost 30 years before I retired. EG [0:11:30]: Wonderful, wow, that is a full career! Um, I just want to know, were there any Skidmore nursing graduates that you knew that were also from Wisconsin, that you ran into in your career? LT [0:11:45]: No, I was, I think a token student from Wisconsin when I was accepted. There's a very high end, um, high school called New Trier in Chicago. Well there were a bunch of New Trier students at Skidmore, but none of them in nursing. EG [0:12:06]: Gotcha. Ok so, we’re going to move on to part four, which is related to the closing of the Skidmore program. How did you react to the closing of the nursing program? LT [0:12:18]: I had a class, I've stayed in contact with a number of my classmates in, at one of, about one of our, uh, I think maybe about 28 actually graduated with me. And, um, there's somewhere in the to the, two two programs so they wouldn't go back, come back to reunions. But I organized and we had I think 14 or 15 of those 28 to come back to one of the reunions. And one of those gals that I had kept in contact with worked for the state of New York. And so, we talked about the closing and she indicated that, and I had lost track with Skidmore, any of the, any of the, the actual instruction at Skidmore. She indicated that Skidmore was doing poorly on their state boards and she was very happy that it had closed because she didn't want to come from a school that now had a bad reputation in the state of New York. So, then those were my feelings. EG [0:13:17]: Wow. Let’s see…yep, so you agreed with her as well about the… LT [0:13:23]: Sure, sure. Yeah. EG [0:13:24]: …That you’d rather have a closed school than a program that’s… LT [0:13:28]: Sure, and I understood, you know, things were changing at that time. Women were, you know, as I said before, you know, when I graduated from high school, you either were a nurse, or a teacher, or a secretary and things were changing rapidly and �Agnes Gelinas was, was the, the solid point of the school. And she was a mentor to me and one that I still feel was very influential in my life. And of course, she retired. And so I, so I had no, no contact with, with who the faculty was, or who had taken over from that. EG [0:14:06]: Gotcha. Wonderful! And now, I'd just to, I was reading through these vignettes and they’re wonderful, especially the “Reminisces,” and I’d love to hear you kind of tell one of the stories. That'd be wonderful. LT [0:14:23]: Pardon me? EG [0:14:24]: Ah, the “Personal Reminisces” you wrote in one of your vignettes? Let's see, for example, the one about the pediatric unit… LT [0:14:33]: Ok! EG [0:14:34]: …love to hear you tell that. LT [0:14:36]: (chuckles) You mean the, that was in the psych unit, right? EG [0:14:41]: Yes. Yea. LT [0:14:43]: Okay. Well our psych experience was, yeah. First of all, I was there during the bitter winter of New York and there was no opportunity. I mean, we didn't, we didn't leave the psych building much. We ate there, we slept there, we studied there, we had classes there. And of course, we did our clinical work there. So, there was, a lot of us struggled with, with that. But in the pediatric unit there was about 10 kids and um, both boys and girls and, um, three of the boys were named Jeffrey. And one of the Jeffreys, the only way he communicated was to bark. And the psychiatrist said he was trying to express the four-letter word. Now back in the 60s, nobody expressed those words, let alone shriek them out in a, in a hoarse bark. So, we took him up to the Cloisters for just an outing and he decided that maybe in the Cloisters, where it echoed so beautifully, he could verbalize that word in its full meaning. And he did. We weren't very happy as students with all the tourists there. But, um, certainly he, um, his psychiatrist was very happy with the result. And when I got married, I said to my husband ‘I will not name a son Jeffrey. Absolutely not.’ And, um, we have three daughters, two of whom have wonderful husbands named Jeffrey. EG [0:16:21]: Wow! That is a unique experience there! �LT [0:16:24]: There was another story that I haven't written yet. There's a couple more vignettes, but the, at the time that we were in the psych rotation, Marilyn Monroe was admitted to Columbia hospital to the neurological unit and we all knew she was there and we all wanted to get a peek at her. But of course, it was well protected. And we knew the day she was leaving, but they took her out. All the hospitals in New York have what are known as tunnels underneath the ground. They connect the buildings. They’re usually pretty dank, dark places. Um, it's where we keep all the storage supplies and the janitorial supplies, but they took Marilyn out through the tunnels so that nobody, the news media could not get ahold of her at all. EG [0:17:16]: Wow. I’ve run out of questions I’m supposed to ask you! (both chuckle) But do you have any, any other anecdotes or anything else you'd like to say about this and nursing program? LT [0:17:25]: No, I have one more vignette that I'm going to be sending out, concerning some of the changes in medicine. You know, from the time that I was there. We, we had a ward at the university hospital about six beds that the students who didn't get into to give care, but they had severe, um, dermatological conditions. And, um, the year that we were there, it was the first year we were there, um, the docs had discovered a medication, a miracle medication by the name of Cortizone. And so, they, that was working wonders with the skin patients. It was, um, the, the inflammation was decreasing... beautifully. They sent a couple of the patients home for Thanksgiving dinner and when they came back, they had colds and by Christmas, half of that ward was dead because the steroids mask the infection. And so, there was a lot to be learned there. Um, gosh, I can't right now. I don't, I don't have it on the top of my head, but some of, some of those other things that I've seen change. When I was an OB, there was a drug named called “the twilight sleep”, and the name of it was, Scopolamine. They would give it to the high-end mothers, um, you know, the private patients to try and help ease their pain, during the, uh, the labor and delivery. And it was, uh, it, it was not a twilight sleep. I can remember three of us nurses laying on a mother, trying to keep her in bed. They just, they just kind of went wild and oh, said nasty, horrible things. And I still remember when I had our first child, I kept saying to the doctor “don't get me Scopolamine, don't give me Scopolamine.” And I don't know by the time I had children, whether that was a drug of use or not, but it certainly was when I was, uh, in the OB rotation. EG [0:19:27]: Wow. Well, but if you remember anything else and want to write about it, that would be wonderful. LT [0:19:36]: Well, I'll add one more thing. I am an only child, but I am the eldest of nine �pregnancies. Um, I was born in the 1940s. My mother was RH negative and as a result my blood type was positive. They didn't know much about positive and negative at that time. They really had not discovered the typing until, um, into the, in the war years. But the result is that my blood, because it was positive and it interacted with my mother's blood, but she built up antibodies to kill my red blood cells. Well I, I survived, but the siblings after me did not. When I was at OB, they had developed a new treatment for those babies that were born in that kind of an instance. And it was a total blood exchange. They would take the blood out of the baby and give new blood and I, I begged them to let me watch that particular procedure, which they understood my interest in it. Um, now, uh, I have a daughter who is RH negative and, but now they have a thing called Volga-M that they give to them immediately so that they don't develop those antibodies. So those are just some of the things I remember. EG [0:20:50]: Okay. Thank you so much for sharing. This is wonderful. LT [0:20:58]: I think that's about it. As I said, I had a couple of those vignettes about how medicine has changed. EG [0:21:06]: No, but yeah no. I think this is great. Thank you so much. LT [0:21:09]: And I don't know. I don't know. Did you, did you have an opportunity to do a little delving into the different types of programs? Um, that ended up with nursing? EG [0:21:19]: A little bit. I, we’re kind of, over the semester getting to know a little bit more. I've been working in the archives up in the library, kind of a sorting through stuff, learning more about the, the nursing program and everything else going on at that point. LT [0:21:37]: And I think I wrote one about state boards and how they've changed over the years. Well, so… EG [0:21:45]: Oh yes, yes did. LT [0:21:49]: …and just as a quick, quick course for you, basically the nurses were trained in, in the hospitals as basically slaves in the diploma program. And um, back in, during World War II, they started the collegiate program. And, um, one of the things about the collegiate program is that you did not have nearly as much clinical experience and believe you, me, those gals that came out with a diploma, the three-year diploma program, knew their stuff. And, um, uh, then, um, a gal from Columbia working on her doctorate dissertation and I can't come up with her name right now, said ‘you know, we �should, we should make nursing available to married women and to people who don't have the money to go on to college.’ And she developed the two-year associate degree program for nursing. And there had always been a one-year practical nurse program. And then there's also the six-week certified nursing assistant’s program. And it's very confusing. And one of the things that happened was with the baccalaureate program, although they would promote us faster and RN licenses, and an RN license. So, whether you had a three-year education, or two-year education or a four-year education, the, the, the pay scale was the same. And I don't, I don't know how it is now, because of course I haven't been in hospital nursing. The pay scale is, it was entirely different at the teaching level. EG [0:23:31]: Gotcha. Yeah, that’s really insightful. LT [0:23:33]: And now of course we've, we've gone on to nurse practitioners, midwives, and um, so the, there's a lot for you to kind of pick up on. EG [0:23:44]: Yeah, wow. Well, any other closing thoughts you can think of? LT [0:23:54]: I can't think of anything else. No. And you’ve got a lot of transcribing to do! EG [0:24:00]: (chuckles) That's true. Um, but it will be a pleasure to do this. This is a wonderful, wonderful interview. LT [0:24:06]: Well, we're, we're leaving Tuesday for Spain for six weeks, so I won't, I won't be available to talk to after this. EG [0:24:15]: Oh, ok, well it’s a good thing we got this in now. LT [0:24:18]: And that's what, that's what I had, I had alerted your professor to that fact and that's why he's probably been pushing on you. EG [0:24:27]: Thank you so much for participating. This will be a wonderful addition to our, our new kind of archive. LT [0:24:36]: Okay, well thank you for taking the time. EG [0:24:39]: Oh, and if you don't mind, uh, stating your name for the record. LT [0:24:41]: Ok, Laura Triebold, maiden name at Skidmore was Engel, Class of ’62. �EG [0:24:56]: Gotcha, wonderful. And this is Emma Griffin, interviewing on February 13th of 2019 at 12:56pm. So, I think we're good. Thank you so much. LT [0:25:07]: Thank you very much. And Goodbye. � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Laura Triebold '62 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Emma Griffin '19 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 26:06 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Jesse O'Connell Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Laura Triebold '62 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 13, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio Interview Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. April 5, 2023 Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/753a473d857c1bcbb42b4b251052d50a.jpeg 35ee4192421f1254efa58a2d863adf52 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/763760242d44813b3ad0cae31894fb54.mp4 5690402285a5706a825349e194379e8f https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/513e48cb6f3622ba5bee99feaea0f387.pdf 06b270d272fc2150da62b23ce13f91e3 PDF Text Text Interview with Virginia Saba '48 by Mohini Shrivastava '20, COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, March 15, 2019. STEPHEN RIBE [00:00:01]: All right. I think we are good to go. VIRGINIA SABA [00:00:04]: Yes. Please. SR [00:00:07]: Great, So Dr. Saba Where were you from before you… Well first of all could you just introduce yourself again. VS [00:00:19]: This is Dr. Virginia Joseph Saba, graduated from Skidmore College as a bachelor of science in Nursing. I graduated in 1948. Prior to that time, I lived in Adams, Massachusetts where I graduated from high school in 1944 and entered Skidmore at that time. Done. SR [00:00:44]: Ok, fantastic. All right so, here's the first question… Where were you from before you decided to attend Skidmore nursing program? VS [00:00:58]: I just told you, I was in Adams, Massachusetts. SR [00:00:57]: All right, but that's just in the list of questions, but I figured, well she already answered that. All right, the second question is, did your family have a background in the field of medicine or nursing? VS [00:01:13]: Yes, my father was a surgeon. SR [00:01:17]: OK and, um, OK so you mentioned that you went high school so I can skip that third question. All right. So, the next question is, what drew you to this program, the Skidmore program? VS [00:01:30]: I received a scholarship to attend Skidmore. SR [00:01:39]: OK. Was that it or was there anything else? VS [00:01:45]: No. No. Well my sister was also a student at Skidmore, upper class. SR [00:01:53]: OK. And she was not in the nursing program? VS [00:01:57]: No, she was in the English program. SR [00:01:59]: OK. And what was your sense of the program before you started? VS [00:02:06]: I don't know. I mean you're in high school, you're asking a question that we never considered at the time. I went to Skidmore because I received a scholarship to attend Skidmore. When I got there, I signed up for the nursing program, period. There was no evaluating schools from one to the other. We didn't do it at that time. I was fortunate to �get a scholarship and that was good enough for me. I didn't look at any other school or even any other program. I just went to Skidmore and signed up in the nursing or in their science classes. SR [00:02:47]: Oh. Yeah that's definitely different from today where there's a whole big deal about you know which school you applied to and all that. VS [00:02:58]: No, I didn’t do any of that. SR [00:03:00]: OK. VS [00:03:03]: That’s what you do today, not what we did in those days. You have to remember Skidmore school of nursing at the baccalaureate level was one of the five nursing programs in the country that were in an academic environment receiving an academic degree. I didn't even know that at the time, but it was a new program in many new baccalaureate programs and I just happened to go to Skidmore because I lived close to Saratoga, I received a scholarship, and my sister was there. SR [00:03:42]: Yeah that makes sense. OK. So, the next question is, tell me about what it was like in the program. What was the structure of the program and what classes did you take? VS [00:04:00]: What classes did I take, I took classes that were required for the science program which later became the nursing program. I would have to look at the curriculum at that time to remember what classes I took. There was only one class you could take, they were all the science program classes. And I received all A's in most of the classes except one, and that was a Shakespeare class where I didn’t do so well on the exam, but all the others I received A+ or 100’s. And you know the Skidmore program at that time was one year in Saratoga, two years in New York, and then one year back in Saratoga, and then they added six more months on it. In other words, after the students graduated in June, we had to go six more months to finish the nursing curriculum. So theoretically I finished in Fall of ’48, not June of ’48 like the other students. SR [00:05:12]: Is there anything else you'd like to say about, you know, life at Skidmore or life in York City, what it was like you know, training? VS [00:05:32]: It wasn’t training, it was education, there’s a big difference. Clinical experience is not training. That's what they used in hospital schools in nursing, not academic ones. The program was just fine. I enjoyed whatever they offered, we moved from hospital to hospital to get different clinical specialties, and that was really interesting and exciting. I was with one group that kept moving around and our group moved around from New York to New Haven, Connecticut for public health to, I think it’s Syracuse, NY for tuberculosis. And the rest were in New York City, from New York Hospital for obstetric, we had something called Communicable Disease, it's a hospital that no longer exists. And �then we went up to Columbia Presbyterian, I can't remember why we were there. It was the program as established, an exciting program with only one like it in the country and it was very challenging and I enjoyed it completely. I had great marks, I pride on the whole program and because of our academics… The one thing we had that other schools didn't have. We never had night duty because most other schools made students work at night. We didn't work anywhere any time. We were always a student in the environment, there to learn, not to use our hands to provide service. And for that reason, we graduated with a little elite-ness in our background. SR [00:07:20]: OK. So, the next question is, how would you compare the campus portion of the program to the New York City portion of the program? VS [00:07:28]: Oh they’re two different portions. One was purely academic and the other was purely clinical. And it still exists that way, you have two years of academic and two years of clinical in the average baccalaureate program. Most of them are two years academic and then the last two years are clinical. We had one-two-one, which was unusual but it was nicer to have one-two-one because then we graduated with our class classmates and got to really know them in our senior year a little bit, but we we wouldn’t have had we had the two-two program. SR [00:08:07]: OK. And so, I read about your bio that you sent me and your nursing informatics and the work that you did after. So, could you tell us a little bit about that? What was your path after Skidmore? VS [00:08:23]: Well you have to realize that Skidmore gave us an excellent baccalaureate level degree in the field of health, science, and nursing. It was a unique program. It was a small class. I think I’d consider it small, I don't remember the number, but we had a very bright group. First of all, we were all admitted as scholars all graduating on the academic tracks of our high schools. So therefore, we were all sort of quite bright, knowledgeable [unknown]. They were you could say potential leaders [unknown]. Skidmore graduates in nursing all became very important people in the field of nursing. Then unfortunately when Skidmore closed its doors over a weekend without any recourse, without any consideration or discussion with the students and faculty, we were very disappointed and very hurt. We all had formed a committee in New York City and in Washington where I happened to be at the time, and we tried to get them to keep the program open and because they lost the building in New York purely for money to move to the campus, we suggested they contract with some hospitals up in New York, Saratoga, or Albany to keep the program going, but they refused to do so and lost the nursing department completely. And while all the other baccalaureate programs were expanding around the country; the Skidmore program died, which is very unfair. Without any scientific basis other than dollars and cents and money. So, because of that, I have not been very happy with what Skidmore has done. They’re trying to say that they now teach nursing by making students go to the whole baccalaureate program and then two years in New York somewhere to get a nursing degree. But you can do that in any baccalaureate program throughout the country. So, it's not novel for Skidmore and that's a false accusation. We do that at Georgetown. We do that at George Mason. We do that in University of Maryland. �Nothing new. Anybody that has a baccalaureate preogram degree in some science background can get a nursing degree. Not just in two years but in one year in many cases. And then the other program they are starting is pre-med. That's another fallacy. Why don't they just go back and regain their reputation in the nursing field. And start the school of nursing again or combined with another school in Troy, New York and make it a regional nursing program. VS [00:11:35]: My career, well it's been a fortunate one. I’ve had a very good career and I guess it started because I was able to become an officer in the public health service which gave me national visibility, national leadership in nursing and that just railroaded into a new specialty as computers expanded in health care. And that's pretty much where I spent most of my career. I was either in the Public Health Service working with technology or teaching at Georgetown. USUHS (Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences) University and I coached at other universities in the field of computer technology now called nursing informatics and it was still a specialty that's been approved by our nursing profession and academic schools around the world. SR [00:12:41]: Great. So, then the question is, how did you integrate what you learned at Skidmore in that career? VS [00:12:55]: Well you know that's an interesting question… you mean, how did I integrate… I learned nursing, that’s the only thing I knew. So, in my job I practiced my profession. How did I practice my profession? Well in the government or in the public health service, I was in charge of collecting the census for nursing services across the country for the federal government, which I did. Of course, I was a key leader in the U.S. Public Health Service, but I worked with every state nursing director in the country, I worked with many nursing agencies in the country. So as a result of my job, I knew practically everybody in public health nursing. And what was I doing, I was collecting the census. So, I was developing that survey or coding the survey too, and I think it was a combination of nursing knowledge and statistical background which I guess I just had a natural knack for. And after that when I taught, I taught the first course in nursing technology at Georgetown University. I worked with the clinical center of the National Institute of Health working on nursing content into the electronic health records which were being introduced at that time. And that's what I've been doing for the last 20 years. I also developed a million dollar grant to develop a nursing terminology for documenting nursing practice which is still being used right now around the world and I'm quite fortunate to see it materialize as it took a long time because the American Nurses Association is a professional organization. The government won’t implement anything unless a professional organization approves of it, and they have approved of more than one nursing terminology which had been a little difficult at the time. But right now, this year, 2019, the Veterans Administration has ordered that the terminology be implemented in every V.A. hospital across the country and it will also expand to every DOD hospital across the country because they have to talk to each other too. It is required that the DOD soldiers alumni talks to the V.A. and the V.A. is still learning how they're going to talk to [unknown]. So that’s a multi-million-dollar project going on in this is its first year. I don't know who's doing that but I can't answer it right now, it’ll stop. �VS [00:16:20]: And so, here I am still. I mean I'm semi-retired but I really am still involved in the promotion of nursing content in the electronic health record and the legislation that impacts on the electronic health record and in the professional organizations that impact on electronic health records nationally and internationally as well. So, I've been pretty active, right now my co-author and I are preparing the seventh edition of the Essentials of Nursing Informatics. We previously called it the Essentials of Computer Technology in Nursing. Our first edition was in 1986. And so, this is the seventh edition. So, we've been doing this for 20 years. The two of us and Dr. Kathleen McCormick who was also a public health nursing officer and worked at the clinical center of the National Institutes of Health. It becomes a lifetime profession. You just don't stop when you retire. You continue to teach, write, get involved, help the new students or new nurses become experts in the field. And I don't know if that was because of Skidmore or just because of my own personal drive. I can't really say, but I did have a good foundation at Skidmore. It was one of the best in the country and it was sad when it stopped. VS [00:17:44]: Well, I guess I was working at the U.S. Public Health Service at the time, I happened to be in Washington and in my office one day, another Skidmore graduate, who was either on the board, or influential at another level with Skidmore. She was a nursing… she was an English major and she was working in the library and she was a librarian. But she was in the U.S. Public Health Service as a writer for the legislation. We both heard of it at the same time and she just, um Gretchen, I can't remember her name, I wish I could. If I find it, I'll send it to you. She took the lead and we formed a committee, a group of us interested in the program and filed a petition against the Skidmore board to reopen or reconsider just relocating the School of Nursing clinical area to someplace up in Saratoga or Troy or someplace in upper New York State so they wouldn't have to close the program because that was where, New York City is only where we did our clinical. It wasn't where we did our academic work, so since we went to Skidmore in Saratoga for our academic work. They could have found another place to house the clinical experiences around Saratoga somewhere. VS [00:19:19]: So, we filed a petition and got a lot of alumni to respond to it and she handled the submission, but I don’t even know if we ever got an answer or anything. It was just not accepted and with that we just sort of all felt very rejected, we felt very not considered important to Skidmore as an academic institution. And when you drop a whole program, it's says well we don't respect the students, we don't respect the faculty, we don't respect the program, so it didn't matter. We had one of the best deans in the country, Agnes Gelinas, running that school, now considered a folklore for one of the best pioneers in nursing in the country; academically teaching nursing in the country. So, they goofed. So, I stopped going to alumni association meetings. I stopped donating money. I just give ten dollars a year so the class will have 100 percent participation, but I'm giving my money elsewhere. SR [00:20:30]: Mm hmm. Yeah. �VS [00:20:32]: They have done nothing for me once I graduated. It’s kind of too bad. SR [00:20:44]: Yea, we were looking at some of the photos of the protests they had on campus from the students. [VS: Really?] Yeah. They had, they had protests on campus. Yeah. According to what we read, it was really just a money decision, basically. [VS: Yeah I know.] Yeah, very financial. VS [00:21:09]: Which is ok, but they could have moved the clinical up to Troy, Albany, there's plenty of hospitals up in that area that could have taken students who didn’t have a program. They could've taken the clinical content, doesn't matter what hospital you're learning clinical content. It could have been done very easily. All it would take is for the faculty to go take a look at some of those hospitals and take their curriculum north. It wasn’t an impossible business and I'm sure at that time the hospitals would have been glad to have baccalaureate students working or learning in their hospitals. That's what they’re doing now. The baccalaureate students are going to their local hospital and getting their clinical that way. It hasn't changed. Unfortunately, nursing hasn’t changed in the last 40 years since the 1940s when Dr. Virginia “Ginny” Henderson claimed it was a professional profession, so what can I say. One of my deans, well not one of my deans, but the dean at the University of Maryland, Jane Allen was a Skidmore graduate and I guest lecture up there and teach in the summer institute. And we would talk about the Skidmore program I don't know where my yearbook is either. I guess they’re looking for yearbooks from my year, I don't even know what happened to my yearbook. When you have too many moves, things get lost. VS [00:23:01]: So, I'm glad you're doing this survey. I'm glad you're going to get information from all of us. They’re probably all going to be about the same, please open the school of nursing. I don't know if it's too late or not. But it's never too late to start with a small program and see what happens. SR [00:23:30]: Mhmm. Yeah. OK. Well that concludes the interview. That's all I've got for you. � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen Ribe Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Virginia Saba Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Judy Brinckerhoff, Jesse O'Connell Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 23:33 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dr. Virginia Saba '48 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio Interview Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. July 18, 2023 Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/706d82f56e71448e194cce7962f0e784.jpg 36f64b4ecb28ddec382e0eef3f05e757 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/a25d6c92fed4918077a09e147c0089fd.m4a 841ce9e5026ad4ba85dc76903ba47e35 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/a48f13f1eb9b0f053e7ee45e18ec6bcf.pdf 5353ff1756652feeea1dfe5e0acdf922 PDF Text Text Interview with Judy Brinckerhoff '72 by Mohini Shrivastava '20, COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, March 15, 2019. MOHINI SHRIVASTAVA [0:00:00]: My name is Mohini Shrivastava and I am here conducting an interview with Judy Brinckerhoff for the Skidmore College Nursing Program Memory Project. It is March 15, 2019 at 7:30 pm. This interview is being conducted in person at the home of Judy. Now, let’s start with a couple background questions. Where were you from before you decided to attend Skidmore’s nursing program? JUDY BRINCKERHOFF [0:00:29]: I was from Darien, Connecticut. MS [0:00:32]: Okay, and did your family have a background in the field of medicine or nursing? JB [0:00:38]: Yes. My mother was actually a World War II nurse, an Army nurse. And she would say to me, ‘whatever you do, don’t become a nurse.’ And, I wanted, I thought I wanted to become a teacher. And she kept saying, ‘don’t be a nurse, don’t be a nurse.’ But, this was in the late 50s and 60s, and I watched her talking on the phone with her friends that she met at work, her nursing friends. And I watched her patients send her cards and thank-you notes and I watched how, how much fulfillment she had, from both her friends and her patients, and I thought well this can’t be that bad, because she seems to like it. And, then, I think I mentioned that I was looking at Georgetown, for the School of Foreign Service and at that time there were very few women there, so I came back, and I had felt very intimidated by my interview. And then I thought well I’ll just become a nurse, because there were far more women in Georgetown than there were in the nursing program any place else. And then when I went to Skidmore’s Open House, in New York City, I think in November of my junior year, that just flipped the switch for me. I said, ‘I’m going to be a nurse and I’m going to look at Skidmore.’ MS [0:02:10]: Okay, so that’s partially what drew you to the nursing program? JB [0:02:14]: What drew me is that I think it was a comfortable occupation, something that I could relate to. And it was just that time in history that there weren’t teachers out there saying you can be anything you want. There weren’t teachers saying, ‘oh be a lawyer, be a doctor,’ nobody really said anything. It was up to me, and so I didn’t know that many career paths and yet my mother was a nurse. So that’s why I chose nursing. MS [0:02:46]: Okay, and what was your sense of the program before it started? Judy [0:02:51]: That it was fabulous. Again, my first introduction to the program was the open house in New York City in the fall of my junior year. It was at NYU, and the older Skidmore nursing majors were there to greet all these high school students and they were so welcoming and so friendly and so enthusiastic that I didn’t even think about how hard the program was. It just looked like so much fun, and they were on a mission. They seemed to be focused and they seemed to have a purpose in life. I was this high school junior, and these girls all seemed so mature and so sure of themselves. That’s what I wanted. �MS [0:03:35]: Alright, so tell us a little more about the program itself - the classes, social life, how it was being in the program. JB [0:03:45]: So, our first year we were on campus, on the old campus, we were mixed with all of the other freshmen. The nursing majors were all on the same campus together. So, we were all in anatomy together, chemistry together, sociology, microbiology. We sought each other out, had our labs together. We fairly quickly, I can’t even imagine, I don’t think it was less, more than a week before I knew who my nursing major friends were, and we just connected. And we started to study together, eat together, socialize together. MS [0:04:29]: Alright, so, and how would you compare the campus portion to the New York City portion? JB [0:04:36]: New York City was fabulous, it was, we were young, we were in this building downtown, we were living without any adults, there might have been a dorm mother, but we never saw her. We were in this building where we did our own shopping, our own cooking, our own laundry. We sat around the table, we made our own meals, we did our own dishes, we studied, we stayed up late, we helped each other. On the weekends, you know, we would ride the city buses down to Chinatown. And, we were at a major university, a major medical center, so our patients at NYU were the very sickest. We saw very rare conditions. It was, it was a very fulfilling time, very exciting. The Saratoga campus seemed calm in comparison. It seemed like a vacation, in comparison. MS [0:05:45]: Okay, so would you have wished for there to be more time in New York City? JB [0:05:50]: No, no it was sophomore year and then sophomore summer, junior year and junior summer. So, we were really ready to come back by senior year. But then we were ready to graduate. MS [0:06:05]: So, would, did you like the classes you had to take on campus during senior year? Did you feel like you didn’t need those and you could have graduated? JB [0:06:15]: No, I think we knew that we needed the liberal arts. Did they fulfill us, sustain us? No, I can't think of any that really, they were classes that we had to take. We did the 4-14 in our, January of our senior, no our research project, it was our senior research project. We went to Boston and did a recruiting program there and that was fulfilling. But again, that was nursing research and it was a project led by the head of the program, Doctor Jean Campbell. No, we wanted to be, we wanted to get our careers in nursing going, so anything else was something to do. MS [0:07:01]: Okay, and what was your path after Skidmore? JB [0:07:06]: Well, my junior year, most of my friends were going to be staying in New York, living and working in the major New York City hospitals. And I wanted something different and my mom had been an Army nurse, my dad had been in the Navy, my �brother was at the Naval Academy, and I decided I wanted to try the Navy. And I talked one of my Skidmore friends into coming to a recruiting meeting and the Navy recruiter was a Navy Nurse Corps officer. And she came to the dorm at Fahnestock, and walked in, and she showed a movie. And only two of us were there, me and my friend, nobody else would come, because this was the height of Vietnam. And she showed us a movie of the hospital ship and the movie had nurses hanging IVs with injured sailors and she had, she had like blood on her face and she was sweating and she had this dramatic look on her face. And I was just totally enamored, and I said, ‘oh man this is for me, I don’t want to stay in New York. I want to join the Navy and see the world.’ So, Cas and I both took the Oath of Office, and I think it was summer or spring of our junior year. And then we were made hospital corpsmen. The Navy paid for our senior year of college and we were paid a salary, a corpsman salary, for our entire senior year. So, we were floating in money. MS [0:08:43]: That’s nice. And, how, if you did, integrate what you learned at Skidmore into your career? What were your experiences? JB [0:08:55]: Well, so, the big thing at the time was degree nurses, a four-year degree nurse, does not have as much practical experience as a three-year diploma nurse. Hospitals had diploma programs. They were three years. And basically, in the three years, a diploma nurse worked and studied at the hospital, and studied primarily nursing, no liberal arts, whereas the four-year degree nurses had liberal arts and clinical. So, there was competition between the three-year diploma and the four-year degree nurses. The diploma nurses had more clinical experience but the degree nurses had a better academic preparation. So, when I got to my first duty station, I was full of academics and I knew what was right and what was wrong. And, on my first day, the Commanding Officer handed me a syringe and said, would you pre-medicate this patient? And I said “Ooh you must be joking. I didn’t draw up this medication and I don’t know who this patient is.” And he was really angry at me, because I just didn’t follow his order. But, because I knew that you have to draw up the medication from the bottle with the label on it, and you have to know who you’re giving it to, it was an automatic response to say, no I can’t do that. But he thought I was a wise guy and, you know, he eventually left the Navy and I got promoted. MS [0:10:34]: Well, something useful then. Okay, I thought there was something else. JB [0:10:46]: Well, graduate school. I mean, we were definitely prepared. We had to write evaluations on our corpsmen. Writing was easy for us because we knew how to put a sentence together. Reading was easy for us. We could talk to different specialties and we weren’t just, sort of pigeon-holed as nurses, we were professionals. MS [0:11:10]: Alright, so, the closing of the program. That’s obviously the important thing here. Tell me about the closing. JB [0:11:26]: It was heartbreaking. By that time, I think I was in Korea, or maybe back in �Bethesda. A couple of my friends were teaching in the program. We could see that it was coming. We knew that the nursing profession was growing. We were very disappointed in the school for not having the whatever, fortitude, to stick with the program. It didn’t matter to us that the New York City campus was more expensive. We saw where our education had enabled us to leapfrog ahead of our peers, and we were working with nurses who hadn’t had the opportunity to have a Skidmore education and there was no comparison. And, it’s, I wouldn’t say burned a hole, it’s been a sad, it’s been a bad feeling for a long time, and it’s hard to get over. You know I can understand that times change and people move on, but I think the school, it would have been interesting to see if they had fought harder for it. MS [0:12:41]: And, do you feel like there’s an empty place if, I know you don’t go back to campus a lot, but, an empty place, as, when other alumni come, they meet their own majors, which still exist. JB [0:12:57]: No, we are so tight. We, one of, one of our friends met a guy when we were, I guess sophomores or juniors, and he nicknamed us “The Follies,” because it was always drama, and there was always fun and laughing, and he named us “The Follies,” the nursing majors. And we now refer to ourselves as “The Follies” and we don’t have to go to campus. We can meet here in Washington, we can meet in New York, we can go Boston, wherever we go, it only takes one or two of us, and we’re fine. We just reunite all the time. Now I will say, when I go back to campus for events, I always have a good time seeing people that were non-nursing majors. I just didn’t have the bond with them, that I have with the nursing majors. And, because I do work, these alumni reunions are always held in early June and school is still in session, so it’s very hard for me to get away. And, it’s just hard. And if you have children, it’s hard to leave because June is the time when their events are going on and, it was hard to get back for an alumni event. But, we always had a good time when we did. MS [0:14:23]: That’s good, and one more detail, how did you hear the news that the program was going to be closed? JB [0:14:30]: From the other nursing majors. It was like instant. I mean it was before the Internet but the phones were buzzing. Oh, instant drama. Instant. Intense. Heart...oh, yeah, terrible. Because, you know, you put your name on a school and your diploma on a school and you think no one's going to know what that program is. And that’s, in fact, what’s happened. Now, when you say you went to Skidmore, you’re usually saying it in front of people who may have had a brother who went there, who may have been a business major or something, and it’s just a totally different atmosphere. And it doesn’t have the same competitive ring that it had, at least for me, when we were there. MS [0:15:21]: Okay, alright, that’s all the questions that I have from my side. Thank you so much for accepting the interview. � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Mohini Shrivastava '20 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Judy Brinckerhoff '72 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 15:30 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Judy Brinckerhoff, Jesse O'Connell Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Judy Brinckerhoff '72 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 15, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio Interview Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. April 5, 2023 Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/278d386d461b81805e667082cb6f789b.jpeg 993407140f6bd47edd551a5d9f0df259 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/0beefc5eec81f5429e460fc39a956312.jpeg c3448d48f71c143a3f4313f5c9dac8b2 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/06e36373f0ebaf40ec675561fcaca649.m4a b8c52b93b0ceea6beff976b44dec4dda https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/7a6968b62671a43a2af08dd2e41e47e0.pdf 20530e46802ece5c5ebab5ccc7a0a15b PDF Text Text Interview with Elizabeth (Liz) Waxman '83 by Xiaoxuan (Shelley) Tan '20, COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, 2019. SHELLEY TAN: So, hi Liz, where were you from before you decided to attend Skidmore's nursing program? LIZ WAXMAN: Hi Shelley. I was, I was born and bred a New Yorker. So, at the time I decided to go to Skidmore College and its nursing program, I was in high school in Manhattan. ST: So, did your family have a background in the field of medicine or nursing? LW: Well, um, my family, as the question is, did my, did or does my family have a background in medicine or nursing? Um, the simplest answer to that is no. My father owned a retail business. Ironically, my late uncle was a physician and my two older siblings are physicians. Um, I had an interest in nursing because I knew I wanted to be in the healthcare field. ST: So, what was your educational background before you joined the program--the nursing program? LW: Well, my background was, uh, a high school graduate. I applied to Skidmore College and so my background was the mandatory freshman year courses for the nursing program. Um, and I passed all of those courses and was entered into the nursing program. ST: So, what drew you to the program? It's actually, you just go on this, the background thing. You can probably say a little bit more about that? LW: Okay. A very simply, uh, the training in New York drew me to the program. That was probably the, the key to my applying to Skidmore in all honesty. Um, it's not that I went home every week because I certainly didn't, I had a lot of studying to do, but it was nice being close to my family. I was able to see my newborn nephew more frequently than if I had gone anywhere else. And when I look back at my nursing training from Skidmore, it’s helped me every step of the way in my career. So, without a doubt it was the, uh, Manhattan nursing program that drew me to the school. ST: Yeah. So what parts of the program as a whole? LW: I liked the clinical rotations, especially in the medical surgical rotations. Um, and I felt because it was such a small program, I felt close to the instructors. I didn't feel that I was one of a hundred students in the large lecture hall. Um, and I also felt close to my classmates. Um, so it was a very nice feeling of, um, I don't want to say family, but it was just a very nice feeling, and we felt we were very well educated to our career is. Um, so I would say the clinical rotations were great. And the instructors, the instructors were great as well. �ST: Okay. So, what was your sense of the program before you started and also, if you can do it like, after you get into the program? LW: What was my sense with the program before I got in and after I finished? Um, my sense of the program before I was accepted to it was, I think I felt intimidated by the program because we, the nursing majors had a set required. Ah, um, the set, um, set of the required courses, um, so the requisites, that's the word I want, uh, freshman year. And I did well. I obviously I did well enough to get into the program. I didn't have to reapply. Um, when I finished the program, I had a sheer sense of accomplishment. It was not an easy program. There was a ton of work to do. Um, I probably saw less of my family when I was in the Manhattan campus than when I was in the Saratoga Springs campus. ST: So, what's the challenging part do you think of those? LW: Umm. I guess the challenge was learning the clinical skills and applying them in the hospital. Um, it's one thing to learn. How to take a blood pressure, how to give a shot in a classroom. It's another thing to have to give an injection to a child in the pediatric rotation and not have your hand shake. ST: So, what do you think you liked the most? So, you already talked about, it’s the Manhattan part. What's like the structure of it, like, what classes you'd take and you liked the most? LW: Well, in, in the nursing program, um, it was, the classes were really structured around the clinical semesters. So, you just started reading the chapters. I probably, with all the respect to the psych instructors, um, psych was my least favorite part of the nursing program and that has nothing to do with the program, and this has nothing to do with the instructors. I just was not good at it and it was a difficult and still is a difficult area for me in nursing. Um, I think I liked, uh, the statistics course we had to take, we certainly had an excellent instructor, Gloria Leventhal. Um, she made statistics very easy. ST: Okay. So, that's the part on the campus, right? LW: Um Manhattan, yeah. ST: The Manhattan campus. So, what do you have on, like, the Saratoga part, compared to the Manhattan part? LW: So, what was my favorite part of the Saratoga campus or the, uh, what was my favorite class? What is the question that I'm not answering? ST: Uh, it just like how you compare the two parts. There's not really need to be favorite or least favorite. LW: Well, the Saratoga campus is, just an extraordinarily beautiful campus and it's very nice, uh, together, uh, Case Green and Case Center. Um, it's always nice to see the leaves changing. I think what I liked about the Saratoga campus was being able to go outside �and outdoors, and sit with, sit with friends, um, and enjoy just some of the weekend, um, festivities they had up at the school. Um, we had those in Manhattan, but they were different, it was just a lot different. And, um, I think I had, I missed my two very good friends who were up at the Saratoga campus for all four years. I did miss them when I was in New York. ST: So, what's your path after Skidmore? Like how do you go on, on your career? LW: Well, my path after Skidmore was not a path I thought I would take, but after Skidmore I went to Israel for a year and worked as... on the program. It was kind of like the Israeli Peace Corps. So, I was able to work as a nurse in Israel. Um, I had a stipend and a room and board. Um, and that was really a great experience. And when I came back to the, to the U.S., to New York, um, it was just the start of the first nursing shortage and when I was applying to hospitals, a hospital that hired me was Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center and never in a million years did I think I would be in oncology nursing and never in a million years did I think I would stay in oncology nursing but that is my career. ST: So, you are still doing like, that, right now? Okay, so would you like elaborate a bit on the Israel part? LW: Um, I, well first I have to say that after graduation I did not immediately pass my nursing boards for New York state so I couldn't get licensed. And so, I was able to get licensed as a lower, in a lower level health care field and do some home health. And that allowed me a little bit of income and a lot of time to study. So, when the nursing board was given again, I passed it. And, at that time I still wasn't sure where or what I wanted to do, and my sister knew of a nurse at her hospital who had been on this program and my sister said, ‘Why don't you talk to her?’ And I spoke to this nurse and she told me about this volunteer program, and I really had a good experience. I got a bird's eye view of some of, uh, the Israeli healthcare system, especially their health clinics. I can speak some Hebrew and the nurse I worked with in Israel was fluent in English, so she translated for me, but I was able to get along, to negotiate and make my way through Israel. Um, there were other people on the program, there were two other nurses and I'm actually in touch with one of my friends from Israel to this day. We're actually connected on Facebook, but, um, it, it was kind of, I'd have to say going to Israel and spending a year in Israel was my time to grow up. My parents weren't around the corner. I had to learn to make a stipend last a month, and with that stipend it was buying groceries and washing clothes and, you know, being an adult basically. Great experience. ST: Um, where do you work now? Just like, elaborated? LW: Well, right now I work at MD Anderson Cancer Center here in Houston. Uh, I'm a nurse practitioner, and my field is lung cancer. So, I see, uh, all of my patients have lung cancer at this time. Um, I do physical exams, I manage side effects of treatment, um, I do a lot of, um, edu... patient education in terms of side effects of treatment and, and again, how to manage them. Um, I work with a one, physician three days a week in clinic. �ST: Okay. So how do you integrate it, what you learned at Skidmore into that career and also outside of Skidmore? LW: Um, well it's the clinical skills that I learnt at Skidmore that have stayed with me and um, I would say I'm a good clinician in terms of examining a patient, um, and seeing the whole person, not just the disease aspect or what they're dealing with. And um, I would also say that, um, I have pretty good, um, psych... psychiatrics, I'm not an expert at it, but there are certain things I can detect and um, and help get the patients the help they need. ST: Okay. So, because you are graduated in the ending, like in ’83? LW: Yes. ST: So, it's really close to the end of the program. So, could you tell me something about how you feel about it or how's the situation? LW: Okay. Um, so I graduated in ’83 and two years later in 1985, the program closed and that was the final graduating class. I found out about it, I think we had a student led meeting, no faculty. And, uh, the student body president, or the nursing student body president told us the news. We tried so hard to save that program, it's not funny. I will be honest and maybe the college, will edit this out, but the whole process of the closing of the program has left and still leaves an extremely bad taste, for me. Um, as far, from my perspective, the board of Trustees decided to close the program and it was a done deal. Um, the student body from Saratoga was fast to react to this news and very vocal in their opposition to it. The entire Skidmore faculty was slow, slow to respond. Um, now that's my take on it. Some of my colleagues and friends from Skidmore may say differently. Um, it, it was going to close no matter what we did, and I wish somebody had had the guts to just say, it's closing, period, end of discussion. ST: Okay. So, because they're like reopen it in some way that they are sending students to work in the New York, but it's not really like reopening the whole department. So how do you feel about that? LW: Well, I've had a long time to think about it and at first, I thought, oh this is a nice way of still having nursing. But in reality, and this is, this is lost. When you were a graduate of the Skidmore College nursing program, that was a brand and every hospital you applied to, knew you had good training and good clinical skills because you would not have been in that program otherwise. The program they have now, it's great that the students get an excellent education from Skidmore, but those who are interested in nursing, go to NYU, and so they're an NYU nurse. And they're very good nurses, but they're not Skidmore nurses and I really don't think Skidmore should hang their hat on this program that's fasttracking students to another college…[phone rings]. Sorry… LW: So, as we were saying, so they're an NYU nurse and those are very good nurses as well, but the brand of a Skidmore nurse is gone and that's not going to be replaced. And I can't figure out how anybody is going to, want to go to a school, graduate from that school, �and then go to another school to be a nurse. I, I, it's like I, the, the finer details of the program need to be explained to me because I don't know if the students who come into this very broad science major and decide to go to the nursing, do they only go the Skidmore for two years and then they go to NYU? Or did they go to Skidmore for four years, graduate with a bachelor's of science, or whatever their degree is and then go to NYU and only have two years of their nursing program? I don't quite understand how that works. Um, and I, I don't know, I mean I understand who on the Board of Trustees came up with this, but it's, it's just not the same. ST: Okay. So, in that sense, how do you think a full Skidmore program helped you? Like how's that different, because you think now this is gone. What do you think they lost in that sense? LW: I just think they los... I, first of all, I think if they could, if the Board of Trustees or the faculty or the administration could have held out just a little longer, there was a resurgence in nursing applications to nursing schools and it would have been NYU and Skidmore as the two New York, top New York nursing programs. Um, I do know that when the nursing program closed, the building on 38th Street was sold. I know that for a fact and nobody has ever told me otherwise, but I'm sure the money, the sale of that building helped the school financially and I can’t argue with finances. ST: Okay. So, because it's very different that Skidmore is a liberal arts college, and in my idea, it is like nursing program at liberal arts college is rare. So, how do you think Skidmore as a liberal arts college having a nursing program, how, how did it help the nursing program and help the school... LW: Well, I think nursing at a liberal arts college makes sense because you have a well-rounded student who just didn't do a biology and chemistry classes. Uh, I mean my senior year I took whatever course I wanted, including a phys-ed class, early, um, elementary education class, um, um, fiction I took, you know, I had a broader education because I was at a liberal arts college. I think the nursing program could have helped the school because would, you would have had maybe an influx of students, um, going into that specific training. I mean, you have pre-med students at Skidmore, is, is being, is going for a career in medicine or neuroscience contradictory to a liberal arts college? No. And you have the, you know, you have UCLA with the School of Nursing. UCLA is a liberal arts school, is that contradictory? I don’t think so. ST: Okay. So, how do you think the liberal arts college in that sense, like, broader your ideas about nursing or how you work as a nurse? LW: The liberal arts part of my education allows me in my current, in what I do today to see things with different perspectives. Um, and I mean maybe because I took elementary education, but I can explain very difficult things very easily to patients and families. So, I think my liberal arts college on a day to day basis impacts what I do at MD Anderson. ST: I think we can go onto this just like summarize a few things like…bullet points... �LW: I mean I, Skidmore College was a perfect fit for me and I owe my introduction to Skidmore, to, uh, the headmaster of my, of my high school. He's now deceased, the late Anthony of Caperio the third, because he thought Skidmore would be a good fit for me. It was a small school. I wouldn't get lost in the thousands of students that larger school has. I would get, not necessarily a one on one education, but the faculty to student ratio would be much smaller. And I did feel for the most part, uh, excluding the nursing instructors, that the instructors from the main campus, maybe there are two exceptions, knew who I was. Um. I had the, I had a very good education from Skidmore. I do support the school. I think I'm one of the few nursing majors from the 1980s who supports the school, although I do not have that as on the, I don't have that information as accurate, so, this is something to edit out. Um, but there were a lot of hard feelings and to be honest with you, at reunion when I see some of my nursing friends, we still talk about it and it still hurts. Um, but I love going to Saratoga and I love the campus and I'm glad other students can benefit from the education provided by Skidmore. ST: Okay. So, would you just give like several words for us to use about how you feel about generally your nursing career and your nursing education? LW: I owe my nursing career to Skidmore College. ST: Okay. LW: Okay. Um, just a few more comments. Um, this came up at Reunion Weekend 2018 when one of the other nursing alumni said in Skidmore Scope, there is hardly ever any items about what Skidmore nurses have accomplished. And it seems to me that since the closing of the program in 1985, uh, Skidmore rather intentionally or unintentionally, has just about completely erased the history of the nursing program, uh, which leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Now I do support the school and I do send in when they ask me for alumni giving, uh, it's my understanding that in CIS there's supposed to be some type of wall or history of the nursing program, and I hope to high heaven the promise is kept. I know President Glotzbach is leaving in 2020. So, I hope that nursing tribute stays in CIS because quite frankly, if it doesn't, I and a few other nurses whose do support the school will probably stop supporting the school completely. [End] � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Xiaoxuan "Shelley" Tan '20 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Elizabeth "Liz" Waxman '83 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 25:56 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Liz Waxman, Jesse O'Connell Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Elizabeth "Liz" Waxman '83 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio Interview Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. April 6, 2023 Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/0c3fe26efc84d06b4989210e1fc4240e.jpg 54f7444211f786970c89cb6974e167ad https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/af11e1bd8624588c2a0b075b810eee82.m4a 1a3b865a82b08dfb759bee892643e8a7 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/d04d2b784bba37366a89d3000764bffd.pdf ca3e1501c04834fbb36171e7020a9344 PDF Text Text Interview with Rothlyn Zahourek '65 by Stephen Ribe '19, COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, 2019. NOTE: Below is an edited version of the audio interview, some information and details have been added to provide context by the interviewee for ease of reading and further information. STEPHEN RIBE [00:00:00]: OK, so the first question is - Where were you from before you decided to attend Skidmore’s nursing program. ROTHLYN ZAHOUREK [00:00:07]: OK. I was born and raised in upstate New York, Rochester, and I was in high school before I applied to Skidmore and decided to apply to Skidmore because I was a little ambivalent about whether I could do nursing or to do something like English or science. And I felt they had a good enough English program and a good enough science program that if I decided to change my mind, I could do that. And they gave me a very nice financial aid package which I desperately needed SR [00:00:54]: OK, is that... Oh, maybe we should have a system where you say a word when you indicate that you're done. RZ [00:01:02]: OK. I'm done. SR [00:01:05]: You could just say I'm done actually RZ [00:01:06]: I'm done. SR [00:01:07]: Yeah. That's perfect. It's interesting, I'm actually, my brother went to the University of Rochester. RZ [00:01:14]: Really? SR [00:01:15]: Yeah, so I went up there. The Kodak plant doesn't look too active anymore. RZ [00:01:19]: No [laughing], it isn’t. SR [00:01:22]: He uh, he pointed it out to us, it was, you know, it was there, but it turns out the university is the main player in Rochester now. RZ [00:01:32]: It certainly seems to be since I’ve been back to Rochester. SR [00:01:39]: Yeah, OK great. And so, the second question is, did your family have a background in the field of medicine or nursing? RZ [00:01:49]: No they did not. Done, I’m done. SR [00:01:56]: Oh, cool, cool. �RZ [00:01:57]: Sorry! [laughing] SR [00:01:59]: Yeah, no, no, that's good. And what was your educational background before you joined this program or your work history too? RZ [00:02:08]: I was, I was just finishing high school so I hadn’t really... The only thing I had done was worked at a department store or worked at an office over summers, and that was essentially it. I had done some candy striping, working as a volunteer in the hospital and delivering flowers and stuff like that. Done. SR [00:02:36]: Oh ok, cool. Did your experience volunteering in the hospital affect your decision to try nursing or go into nursing? RZ [00:02:44]: I think probably it did. I'd wanted to be a nurse since I was 4 years old. So it just, I mean, I read every nursing book I could get my hands on in terms of all the novels that were about nurses and so I really wanted to work at a hospital and I think it was helpful in just giving me a taste of what it was like to work in a hospital. I'd been sick as a kid so I’d spent a lot of time as a patient in the hospital. And that was not a very happy experience. SR [00:03:21]: Ok. What was your sense of the program before you started? RZ [00:03:26]: I really didn't have much of a sense of the program before I started. Again, I was 17 years old and I knew that the nursing program was well thought of. I had no idea how astoundingly different and phenomenal it was until much later and I knew they had solid liberal arts, which I was also interested in. Done. SR [00:03:54]: OK. Tell me about what it was like in the program. What was the structure of the program and what kind of classes did you take? RZ [00:04:04]: The structure was... I graduated in 1965. So, I entered in ‘61. The structure was very rigorous. Freshman year was all sciences plus English, composition, which all freshman had to take. And you had to have a PE requirement, but we did anatomy and physiology, chemistry, microbiology and one of the social sciences I think, one semester was sociology and one semester was psychology. And I have to tell you we were the busiest freshmen. All of our classmates were able to play bridge and you know, go out on the weekends. And we were always in labs and we were always studying. So, the program was known to be the hardest program at Skidmore, particularly for freshmen coming in. Then, do you want the rest, do you want me to tell you the rest of the program? SR [00:05:08]: Yeah, that would be great. RZ [00:05:10]: OK. The first summer we went to New York City and we were given white �uniforms, white stockings, and white shoes, and a cap no less; a white cap. And it was our first clinical experience and we had to, we were put on a ward with an instructor in groups of I guess six or seven and we were expected to begin to communicate with patients and do odd jobs. We were guided by the nurses and we would have a conference in which, we made jokes about. A faculty member and a psychiatrist from a psychoanalytic institute came and we had a "feelings group" that we actually all made jokes about because they constantly asked us what we did during our shift on the wards and we would tell them and they would say, ‘well how did you feel about that?’ And so, it became a big joke. ‘How did you feel about what you experienced?’ Although in retrospect that was really very important and very useful because many of us ended up in psychiatry [laughing] as time went on. So, that was the first summer and it was my first time in New York City. It was the first time for a lot of the women in the class to be in New York City. We lived on two floors in a dorm for medical students right across the street from Bellevue Hospital psychiatric. So, it was a very big experience, social experience and educational experience. For, you know, we were all 18- or 19-year-old. So, then the next two years were clinical years in New York and we did what then were considered to be pretty standard rotations. We did medical surgical nursing. We did all the pediatrics and then they had a very unique thing for our junior year -- I think junior year. I'm pretty sure Junior year, we had psych and public health together in the same week. So, we did two days of clinical psych and two days of public health psych and one day of classes. So again, we did not have the usual college student schedule of you know, a few classes and a whole day off and a few more classes and a day off. We were busy all the time. RZ [00:08:11]: So then, that summer after junior year, we were actually free to work between sophomore and junior year. Many of us took the LPN licensing exam which I did and I worked that summer as an LPN at the University of Rochester Hospital Strong Memorial. And then junior year we finished those rotations (psych and public health) and for many of us those rotations really resonated with us. And I'm not sure how many in our class ended up in psych mental health, but I would say at least a third of our class ended up in psych mental health as a result of the experience which was very positive. Which is also surprising because the psych nursing experience, it can be really upsetting for nursing students. It can be frightening. It can be confusing. People often start questioning their own mental health while they're in that experience so it's a difficult experience for young students. So, after that we had to be in New York for the summer between junior and senior year and in that summer we were able to do an independent study that we picked, and also we had an elective liberal arts class. It was actually really fun. One of the professors from the government department on campus came down once a week and we had a class on current events and that was great. We talked about plays, we actually went to a play as a group, we talked about politics, it was really very enriching that class. RZ [00:10:37]: We also had a seminar where we were talking about nursing issues and then the clinical, and my clinical elective was with a married couple’s group with a psychologist at the VA. And that was a really a very good experience. I felt very fortunate to be given that experience. And then senior year we went back to campus and I think this was the most unusual part of the program in that I know of no other program that had split �clinical and academics like Skidmore did. So we went back to campus and there we did all of our liberal arts electives and a senior nursing seminar with Agnes Gelinas who was the director of the program at that time. We were her last class. Interestingly enough, many of the liberal arts professors said they'd love to have nursing students in their classrooms because we were far more mature than the other students that they had in their classes. We'd experienced birth, we'd experienced death, we'd experienced patients with horrible issues, and chronic illness. Then out in the community in the depths of New York City visiting very impoverished areas. You know we were a very different group that came back to campus that had actually left campus freshman year. So we had electives and then we had this one seminar with Agnes Gelinas and it was really terrific. She essentially sent us on our way with all kinds of messages to be professional -- that we were professional and that we should always be a part of our professional organization, etc. I guess partially due to her influence when we graduated we refused to say the Florence Nightingale pledge. It's actually a wonderful pledge but it implies we thought, that you will do whatever a physician tells you to do. And this is 1965 and we decided we didn't want to say that. So, we wrote our own pledge and gave it and that pledge is on the wall in the science building. SR [00:13:28]: Oh OK. RZ [00:13:34]: So, done. That was a long one [laughing]. SR [00:13:35]: Yea, no that was great. OK, so that was good. That was really good. Yeah. Tons of detail. OK so then, the next question is more about your path after Skidmore. So, what was your path after Skidmore and where did you work? RZ [00:13:56]: OK. You have to realize at this point in my life now I'm now 75 years old, so I had a long wonderful career. Since Skidmore, I went directly into psych mental health nursing and my first job was as a staff nurse on a psychiatric unit in Denver, Colorado. University of Colorado Medical Center. And there I was fortunate enough to find a supervisor, another, an advanced practice nurse in psychiatry who really took me on as a mentee. She became a mentor for me and we ended up doing a married couple’s group with one of the residents, we had resident psychiatrists there. So, it was a wonderful experience and I really enjoyed working on the in-patient unit; at that time nurses were doing groups. Patients were there longer term, certainly than they are now. Now we have very short-term admissions. And Patients could be there for a month or six weeks sometimes even longer. So, you really could develop a relationship with patients. At any rate, she encouraged me to go to graduate school so the year after, I did a year of clinical staff nursing, I went to graduate school at the University of Colorado and got a masters in psych mental health nursing. Do you want me to keep talking about this? SR [00:15:48]: Yeah. That’d be great. RZ [00:15:50]: OK. So, after that I was in Colorado and Colorado at that time in the 60s, late 60s, ‘69 I think was the date that the nurse practitioner was essentially born, and that role was born at the University of Colorado. So advanced practice nursing really took off in �Colorado. So, when I finished my Master’s degree I was wanting to work as a clinical nurse specialist which is what the degree was. So, I got one of the last jobs available in Denver for advanced practice psych nurses at the time. I put it off because I was in the process of getting married and I was over-done with school and over-done with everything. So, I let things go and the last job available was a research job at Denver General Hospital in psychiatry. And so, I took that job thinking, boy I'm not really a researcher at all, but I will take it because it was in a community mental health center. And in that community mental health center, I was also responsible for seeing a case load of patients and doing consultation in the General Hospital as well and helping some research projects that were all already in process. RZ [00:17:34]: And that job really changed my life in many ways. One research project was on the loss of a newborn -- the grief in a mother and incidence of depression who loses a baby during labor and delivery. So, I was doing that at the same time Denver and Colorado was doing therapeutic abortions. The therapeutic abortion law had been expanded somewhat and so we were doing abortions on women. But the requirement was they would have to have two psychiatrists determine that carrying the child to term would damage their mental health. So, I became involved in that program as well and seeing many of those women and counseling them and working with them. So, the job was incredibly variable and stressful. While I was doing the research, I was also doing clinical work and consultation with the nursing staff. They were having a hard time with all of it. So, at the same time there were a group of us working as clinical specialists at Denver General in various capacities as several different community-based teams. And we kept saying, you know, ‘we're not being paid the same way that people with the same educational background are being paid and our job description really doesn't say what we're doing.’ Because again, we were a new role and it was a new role in health care. So, we got together and we worked with the Colorado Nursing Association and we ended up forming a unit, a bargaining unit, and ended up protesting, not only our pay, but our job description. Over time we ended up filing a lawsuit that went to the Supreme Court as a discrimination suit. So, and the end result was that it got thrown out. But that was a very exciting and educational experience in the need for political change and political activism when you’re in healthcare. So, at the same time we were also saying that we felt we could be in private practice seeing patients if we had a supervisor that was willing to do that, because we were already functioning pretty independently doing that in the mental health clinic. So, a group of us in psychiatry, pediatric nurse practitioners, and a geriatric nurse practitioner, decided to form one of the first private independent nurse-run practices in the country. And so, we did that and it functioned really well for three or four years and then the pediatric and the geriatric nurses felt that they were nervous about doing this full time and decided that they really couldn't keep doing it anymore. It turned out that we became a group of psych nurses and we ended up adding some social workers as well. We actually incorporated, had a little corporation, and it functioned for several years as a private practice psychotherapy group. That was really a very innovative unusual thing for nurses to be doing at that point in time and now nurses are in private practice and setting up private practice groups and what have you. It's not uncommon at all. RZ [00:21:40]: So, then I moved to New York because my husband at the time wanted to live in �New York, and I had some trouble finding a job. I finally found a job at Lehman College doing the clinical teaching for psych mental health nursing. I did that for a couple of years and then found a job at St. Vincent's Hospital in their alcoholism program. RZ [00:22:16]: And I had done consultation in Colorado in the general hospital and at the time I really, really enjoyed that role. As a mental health consultant you see patients who are having difficulty with breathing or with pain or family issues or the nurse is having difficulty with the patient whose behavior it is making them crazy. It was a very wonderful role. As a result of that, I’m going to divert a little bit because another thing that I became very involved in happened with one of those patients. She was my psychtherapy patient in the clinic at Denver General and I had worked with her for a couple of years; and she was a very difficult patient. She spent a lot of time in the emergency room with traumatic symptoms and she was very histrionic; the staff was always complaining about her. And one day I got a call from the ICU saying that she was there and that she'd been badly burned in a house fire. I went to see her; she was in a lot of pain and very distraught, not knowing what to do. And I remembered back to my OB experience as a nursing student at Skidmore and how I had learned some relaxation techniques being used in natural childbirth by a man named Grant Lee, Dick Reed, I think his name was, to provide relaxation during labor and delivery. So, I decided to try that with her and I did have a relationship with her that had started previously and she went to sleep. I was really surprised. And so, I started doing that with her regularly and my supervisor at the time, again I'm back in Denver, said 'you're doing hypnosis'. And I said, 'I'm not doing hypnosis that really kind of freaks me out!' So, it turns out I decided to learn more about hypnosis, and a social worker on the unit had always been interested in hypnosis herself. And so, we set up a program of doing hypnosis with burn patients and patients who had chronic pain or were having difficulty with other kinds of difficulties on the hospital unit. Later after I moved to New York, I had written and published a couple of papers on clinical hypnosis for nurses and done some teaching of hypnosis in workshops to nurses. When I went to New York and was working, I got a call from a publishing company asking if I would like to write a book on hypnosis for nurses. So, I ended up writing two books, one on relaxation and imagery and one on clinical hypnosis for nurses. RZ [00:26:04]: So, that was while I was in New York. And also, I was working in the alcoholism program at this point and learning a lot about alcoholism and treating alcoholic patients and their families and particularly the addicted alcoholic patients who had a mental illness. So, we developed a whole program that worked with what's called the 'dual diagnosed patient'. This was again in the 70s, let’s see, late 70s and early 80s. And at the same time was the AIDS outbreak and St. Vincent’s is in the heart of Greenwich Village where there are a lot of gay men and the AIDS epidemic was rampant. So, I treated many people who were substance abusing, depressed, sometimes psychotic who also were HIV positive or had frank AIDS. In the meantime, also, throughout my career I've been an active ANA (American Nurses Association) member particularly in specialty psych nursing groups. So, it's been, it's been very important in my career as a support group and a group to help nurture myself as well as participate with others who are like-minded. RZ [00:27:50]: So, then I moved to Massachusetts I again had trouble getting a job [laughing], �and finally, I got a job. I did a variety of things: helped set up, actually did set up a dual diagnosis program and a program for chronically mentally ill patients and set up a consultation program for substance abuse at one of the major hospitals here. I set up a private practice and then helped form a group of psych nurses who were again advanced practice psych nurses and we lobbied along with other nurses for prescriptive authority. So, in the early 90s we managed to politically convince the legislators that we need an expanded Nurse Practice Act and should be allowed to prescribe psychotropic medications. So, I spent some time teaching at the University of Massachusetts, again psych nursing, mostly clinical teaching, although I've done quite a bit of classroom teaching. Then I also became involved in the American Holistic Nursing Association. That fit with my interest in hypnosis and imagery, which I practiced a fair amount in my private psychotherapy practice. I became actively engaged in the American Holistic Nursing Association. Then I decided since my kids were grown and gone and I decided I really would love to go back to school and get a doctorate. So, I did. And I went to NYU. So, I went back to New York and commuted from Massachusetts, Western Massachusetts to New York City twice a week and I finished my doctorate in nursing and my dissertation was on intentionality and healing which I’m continuing to study, teach and publish about. I continued to have a private practice in Amherst, Massachusetts, where I did psychotherapy and prescribing. I saw a lot of students as there are five colleges around Amherst. I also saw a variety of other kinds of patients. And I finally retired ten years ago, but I’ve continued to do research on intentionality and healing and to teach in workshop classes and present at national and international conferences. I was an adjunct faculty at UMass for quite a while up until just recently. And became the chairperson of the newly developing research committee at AHNA and later helped to develop that. And since that time, again I've just been working on papers and presentations mostly related to the concept of healing and intentionality. SR [00:31:40]: Oh wow, yea, that was great. RZ [00:31:47]: My whole life history. SR [00:31:51]: Yea, no, that was great. I have to type up an entire transcript, but I’m not... RZ [00:31:59]: Oh God. [laughing] SB [00:31:59]: ...But I'm not complaining. I'm a pretty fast typer I think. RZ [00:32:05]: OK that's good. SB [00:32:06] OK, so the last couple questions they’re just about the closing of the Skidmore program. So, the first question is, tell me about the closing of the program. So you said that you were pretty involved in that actually. RZ [00:32:23]: Well, in terms of the closing I was primarily involved in protesting it, and not wanting it to happen. I actually had a couple of students, when I was, where was I? I was in New York working at St.Vincent’s when this was happening. The nursing program �was still in New York and they built a new building which was really lovely. Before that we were staying in the NYU medical residence with the medical students. Skidmore built their own building which was a beautiful residence hall and probably overspent. Again, many of the students I think in the program, in the nursing program, were scholarship students. We were an extensive program because we were off campus and because several of the students were scholarship students. And so, it came down to dollars and cents, I'm sure. But those of us who had graduated really felt that Skidmore was losing something that really made it very special, and what more can I say about that? You know there were a lot of us that were protesting that and trying to stay involved. Let's see, Hunter-Gault, Charlene Hunter-Gault, who was a reporter for BBC, no for PBS NewsHour was on the board [I think she was on the board] and she supported our trying to keep the program alive. But the board of trustees finally voted to close it and I just think it was a big loss. The loss to those of us who were alums and for a while, nursing alums were very angry and disappointed. And I think a lot of people did not go back for reunions and didn't donate because they were mad. You know, and I think that's changed over the years. But it was an unhappy kind of thing for those of us who went through the program. When you’re in the program you don’t realize how unusual it is until you get out and you start comparing programs that other people went to what they learned and what their experiences were like. RZ [00:35:32]: I was very grateful when Terry Fulmer who was the dean at NYU for a very long time and a Skidmore graduate, really wanted something to happen for nursing and Skidmore. I think it was only a few years ago she set this program up, an easy transition from Skidmore to the NYU nursing program. I don't know what else to say about that. SB [00:35:57]: No, that’s great. So, the last question is when and how did you first hear about the closure? RZ [00:36:05]: Boy, that's a good question. I honestly don't know. I think, I think it may have been from the student I was mentoring who was in the second to last class. I think she might have told me and boy the year... I don't know. I was still in New York so it had to be ’85… ’84. I don't know, I’d have to look it up, when they actually started thinking about closing. SB [00:36:52]: Right. I think, I think it closed in '85, I thought. RZ [00:37:00]: Yeah. That sounds about right. SB [00:37:04]: But, I think they let the, you know the students who were still like undergraduates, they let them still complete the program. [RZ: Right. Right.] They didn't just throw them out. So, that's all I've got for you. Yeah, thanks so much for talking. RZ [00:37:23]: No none of the questions that you sent me, which is fine. SB [00:37:27]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think I've got a lot here. So... �RZ [00:37:33]: [laughing] I think you do too. SB [00:37:34]: So, I don’t think we need to go into those questions and also there was a lot of, there was a lot of stuff, you know a lot of different stuff from those questions that were kind of in your answers. [RZ: Yes] And yeah, thank you so much for talking to me. RZ [00:37:50]: Oh, you’re welcome and I really wish you luck and you know if I can be any help to you if you decide you want to do nursing, I’m happy to do that. SB [00:37:59]: Ok, thank you so much. RZ [00:38:00]: Oh, you’re welcome. And I wish you all the best in terms of graduating, that’s very cool. SB [00:38:09]: Thank you so much. [RZ: Alrighty] Alright, it was good talking to you. RZ [00:38:12]: Ok. SB [00:38:15]: Bye. RZ [00:38:17]: Thank you very much. Bye, bye. SB [00:38:20]: Bye. � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen Ribe '19 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rothlyn Zahourek '65 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 38:20 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Rothlyn Zahourek, Jesse O'Connell Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rothlyn Zahourek '65 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio Interview Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. April 6, 2023 Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/0f713a5595e3524fa980ab7971c9a0b7.JPG f1da443df9f135e0065455d540c69ce8 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/1b86ec93708b28aa97b72d8384197b76.m4a d0c29a0ded43e3af1f458194782c69d1 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/9587c7a61a206eb2a2518905ccab5da5.pdf 1dfd677e652c09c424c59378704f0be6 PDF Text Text Interview with Teresa Waters '79 by Grace Heath '19: COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, June 1, 2019. GRACE HEATH [00:00:00]: Okay. But basically, we can just jump right in and you can tell me your name, class year, and where you're from before Skidmore. TERESA WATERS [00:00:08]: Okay. My name now is Terry, Teresa Waters. When I was here at Skidmore, was Teresa Sinclair. I go by Terry and I was in the class of ’79. GH [00:00:19]: Nice, so where were you from before you came to Skidmore? TW [00:00:24]: When I was here at school, my parents were in Guilford, Connecticut. GH [00:00:27]: Okay. TW [00:00:27]: But I live in Maine now. GH [00:00:28]: All right. GH [00:00:29]: So, what originally brought you to Skidmore? What, how did you become attracted to this program? TW [00:00:36]: Well, I knew I always wanted to be a nurse since I was a little girl, and I had looked at actually three colleges: Russell, Sage, Duke and Skidmore. And liked Duke, but it was too far away, and I knew I wouldn't get home too often; I didn't really like Russell Sage being in the city, and when I came to see Skidmore, I loved it, the size and the campus was beautiful. GH [00:01:01]: Yeah. TW [00:01:02]: Yeah. GH [00:01:03]: So, did, does anyone in your family have a background in the field of medicine or nursing? TW [00:01:08]: No. GH [00:01:09]: So, this was just something you decided you wanted to do? TW [00:01:11]: Yeah. GH [00:01:12]: I see, so what was, what was it like being in the program? Like what? What was your day to day schedule like, kind of situation? TW [00:01:22]: The way the nursing department was set up, freshman and senior year were here in Saratoga and then sophomore and junior year were in New York, so totally opposite daily living. GH [00:01:35]: Yeah. TW [00:01:35]: Freshman year was pretty tough. It was a lot of science, chemistry, which I was not real good in, but I passed, but so, a lot of studying. �GH [00:01:46]: Yeah. TW [00:01:46]: We had a lot of fun. That group of nurses pretty much melded pretty quickly because we were all in the same classes, the same labs, that kind of thing. Sophomore and junior year, we were divided into two semesters. So, I don't, I can't remember if we started clinical right away our sophomore year, I'm pretty sure we did. Mostly at NYU, which was right down the street from the dorm. Dorm was on East 38th Street. I think there were three floors in the dorm and we had to cook and clean. And that was, yeah, that was pretty crazy. But it was great. GH [00:02:24]: Yeah. TW [00:02:24]: It was great. And then we also had to go to school during the summer after sophomore year and after junior year. Then senior year came back here, which was really fun. GH [00:02:34]: Yeah. TW [00:02:34]: Loved it. GH [00:02:35]: Yeah, so kind of starting with your experience the first year at Skidmore, what kind of classes were you taking? Like, was it mainly for nursing, particularly, or was it a variety of things? TW [00:02:48]: No, it was pretty much for nursing, other than they had what was called a winter term, which was an elect, you could take any kind of course. But English, biology, chemistry, chemistry lab, micro, sociology, I think psychology, and then so, there were labs for microbiology, chemistry and biology, and then spring semester was organic chemistry. The lab for that, and then a continuation of biology. GH [00:03:31]: So, when you were at Skidmore, how many people were in your nursing program? And were you guys all housed together, even on campus here? TW [00:03:39]: No, everybody was pretty much separated. GH [00:03:43]: Okay. TW [00:03:43]: Yeah, so some, there was still the old campus then, it was called Moore Hall. I lived in the Tower. People were in different dorms. Everybody was in a dorm freshman year. What was the second part of your question? GH [00:03:58]: That it was just how many people were in your program? TW [00:04:00]: Yeah, I think we started out with maybe 50. It was pretty small. Yeah. Yeah. But like you said, because we took all the same classes together, we got to know each other really well. Yeah. GH [00:04:12]: So then moving into New York City portion, what was that transition like going from small kind of Saratoga to thrown into this big city experience? TW [00:04:24]: It was, it was a real eye opener. You know, some kids hadn't really been exposed to �New York much. I had, living in Connecticut, but never had lived there. The dorm was in a pretty, it was not a bad section of Manhattan. It was a couple blocks from the U.N. in, and right across the street was a big parking garage. So, it wasn't a bad neighborhood, but you learn pretty quickly where you could go and where you couldn't go. We had basic safety classes at first, you know, telling you what to do. And just at that time, New York City was not like it is today. Like Grand Central, Times Square, you just didn't go there. It was pretty bad. But you learned where you could go. And we used the NYU library a lot, which was just a couple blocks down on 1st Avenue. Yeah. It was a big transition, for sure. GH [00:05:22]: Yeah. So, what were the what was, like, the class schedule? Kind of like, like was it more classes or a lot of clinical work? TW [00:05:30]: You know, I was trying to think of that driving up here yesterday. I'm pretty sure the way we did it was like two days of classes, all classes which were in the dorm. The classrooms were downstairs on the first floor. And then I think the other days, we had clinical, and each class, there were obviously two classes down there, sophomore and junior. Each class was divided in half. So, you spent all your time with the half that you were in. GH [00:05:59]: Yeah. TW [00:06:00]: Yeah. GH [00:06:01]: So, what was that atmosphere kind of like then being with that one group then in this? TW [00:06:07]: Pretty cohesive. GH [00:06:08]: Yeah. TW [00:06:10]: We had a lot of, you know, a couple of pranksters for sure, and had a really good time. But it was a lot, it was a lot of studying. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. GH [00:06:20]: So, what were, what were the clinicals like? Like being, you know, you're probably, what, like 20 or so being in this professional war environment? TW [00:06:29]: It was, it was a real eye opener at first. NYU didn't have just run of the mill, like, for instance, pediatrics, it wasn't tonsillectomy and appendectomies, it was major things that were wrong with kids. So, it was a real eye opener to see some life and death type things and the way it worked, usually, at least sophomore year, you were assigned just one or two patients and you had to go the night before, look at their chart, read the chart, find out all their medications, and then you'd go home and study and find out, you know, what are the adverse reactions. All those sorts of things. So, there were usually, I think, seven or eight nursing students to one professor. Yeah. GH [00:07:20]: Yeah. TW [00:07:20]: Yeah. GH [00:07:21]: So, did you have what were your relationships like with your professors then? TW [00:07:26]: They were great. Always accessible if you needed them. Very professional, and �really helped you learn to set limits right away—what was acceptable, what wasn't. But very, very positive. Yeah. GH [00:07:45]: Um, so, I guess, just in general, like, what are your some of your just most memorable times in New York City? And just like any stories you have that you can remember, either clinical or even outside of your, the direct, the nursing work, you know. TW [00:08:01]: Like I said, you know, you really bonded with the people, especially that were on the floor that you lived with. Yeah, lots of fun in the summertime and in the in the early spring, we would go up to the roof of the building, which was called Tar Beach. And when I think of it now, I just kind of shake my head. But we had some great times on there, you know, just crazy. Crazy. Yeah, but I had to get tan, you know? GH [00:08:28]: Of course. No sunscreen, I imagine. TW [00:08:31]: Oh, no. Baby oil and iodine. GH [00:08:33]: Oh, my gosh. TW [00:08:34]: I know, I know. GH [00:08:35]: Oh, God. TW [00:08:36]: The other thing summers in the city were... I did not like that, just so hot, but you did it and you got through it. GH [00:08:43]: Yeah. TW [00:08:44]: Yeah. GH [00:08:45]: So, were you, for, based on, like, grade wise, like, did you have like written exams when you were doing, in New York City doing the clinical work and stuff? Okay. TW [00:08:55]: Just typical. Yeah, there were exams and all. If I remember right, a lot of quizzes and then yeah, I think we had exams, probably and I don't know, maybe every month or something. But yeah, it was pretty, pretty tough. GH [00:09:15]: Yeah. TW [00:09:15]: Yeah. GH [00:09:16]: And then. So, you're saying the classrooms were in the same building as your, where you lived. So, what was the housing situation like? Like how was that set up? TW [00:09:28]: It the, the building had, I think, four floors. The first floor were two or three classrooms that were divided with, you know, those accordions. GH [00:09:38]: Yeah. TW [00:09:38]: Yeah. Then the second floor was offices and there was a housemother who we �never saw, but we were told she had an apartment there. The door, the front door was always locked. You had to, I think you were buzzed in, if I remember right. But then the third and fourth floors were where we lived. So, there were, there were some singles in the back, but they were real small. Most people had doubles. There was one small living room with a kitchen, which I think about now and cringe; it was always filthy. Yeah, and then there was one common bathroom that had I think four showers—four or six showers. I know. For all these, yeah, and we had, we had one male in our class. Yeah. It was, I think the only, I don't know if there were males after that, but yeah, he was a great guy. Yeah, I can't remember his name, but he was, yeah. GH [00:10:38]: That must have been a pretty crazy experience living with that huge group of women. TW [00:10:43]: He wasn't on the high floor, but, yeah, I can only imagine. Yeah, but we had a, it was fun. It was a lot of fun. GH [00:10:50]: Yeah. So, then what was that, going, what was it like then going back to Skidmore after having this pretty independent, more serious experience in the city? TW [00:11:02]: Yeah, it was again, it was a pretty big transition. You know I think we all really grew up a lot in the city because we were independent and just seen these, some life and death kind of situations. I had a really good time senior year. I loved it. Yeah, too. And senior year we took a nursing theory course and nursing leadership. But other than that, you could take what you wanted. So, I took things that just, you know, American history just, it was great. Yeah. But it was definitely, it was different, you know, and we, we had all bonded so much, but we got back here and it was just like nothing. Most of us lived in, it wasn't Sussman, is it Sussman Village now? GH [00:11:48]: Yes. TW [00:11:49]: It was called Scribner Village. GH [00:11:51]: Oh, yes. TW [00:11:51]: Yeah, and most of us were in apartments down there. GH [00:11:54]: Yeah. TW [00:11:54]: Yeah. GH [00:11:55]: Nice, that's where I lived this past year. TW [00:11:57]: You did? GH [00:11:57]: Yeah. TW [00:11:58]: They look beautiful. GH [00:11:59]: They're so nice now. TW [00:12:01]: Are they really? �GH [00:12:01]: Yeah, way nicer than anything I'd probably actually be able to afford, but… TW [00:12:05]: Wow. GH [00:12:06]: Yeah, super nice, but, yeah, so how, or what area of nursing were you particularly interested in? Like pediatrics, like psychiatric. What kind of? TW [00:12:21]: When I got out of school? GH [00:12:22]: I guess in school, and then when you got out of school. TW [00:12:28]: I was interested in ER Nursing. GH [00:12:31]: Okay. TW [00:12:31]: Mostly. We really didn't have any exposure to that in school. Most of it was med surg and pediatrics and OB, but that was always an interest of mine. So, when I got out of school, I took a little bit of a different track than most people did. I went up to Maine. A lot of kids were going to grad school or, you know, to big university hospitals. I wanted to go up to Maine. I've spent summers there. GH [00:12:54]: Yeah. TW [00:12:55]: So, I went to a small little 32 bed hospital. GH [00:12:57]: Wow. TW [00:12:58]: Where you did things in Boothbay Harbor. Where you did pretty much everything. GH [00:13:03]: Yeah. TW [00:13:04]: Yeah. GH [00:13:04]: What did you, what was that experience like? Did you like it like? TW [00:13:09]: I loved it. It was again an adjustment at first. And I'll never forget, you know, small hospital, the head nurse who was a woman who was about my age now, I thought she was pretty old, but she took me aside and she said, 'you know, listen, I know you went to a four year school, don't think you, you know everything because you don't.' She said, 'the best advice I can give you is listen to what the nurse's aides tell you.'. GH [00:13:36]: Yeah. TW [00:13:37]: 'And don't, you know, come across as better than that.' And I'm like, 'why are you saying that to me?' And she said 'because we had a really bad experience with somebody who went to a four-year school and came in and…' And later I talked to her about that once I got to know her, and she said ‘no,’ she said, 'you know, the nurse's aides are your, your eyes and ears cause you can't be everywhere.' Because at night there would be two nurses aids and an NR and would be in charge for 30, 32 patients. GH [00:14:05]: Yeah. �TW [00:14:05]: So, it was, at first, I was shaking in my boots, but it turned out great. It was great. Yeah. GH [00:14:12]: So how do you think, how do you think Skidmore's program kind of prepared you for that experience, even though, I'm sure it is, like you're saying it was different than what other people were doing it. TW [00:14:24]: You had a lot of, a lot of critical thinking. You know, like I said, we didn't in, in the nursing program we didn't have your typical appendectomies, tonsillectomy. It was kids with brain tumors, glioblastomas, all kinds of pretty serious things. But you knew how to prioritize. So at first, I think I was at a little bit of a disadvantage when I went to St Andrew's in Boothbay, my first job, but after you got to know just the basics which, which took, you know, a month or so. GH [00:14:55]: Yeah. TW [00:14:56]: The routine type thing, way ahead of the curve. Yeah. Yeah. GH [00:15:01]: So, then what was your, what was your next step after you were at that hospital? How long were you working at that hospital? TW [00:15:08]: I was at St Andrew's a total of three years. GH [00:15:11]: Okay. TW [00:15:12]: With a break in between, because my mom passed away in Connecticut. So, I went back to Connecticut because I had a younger sister. I was there for about eight months. But then I did go back to St Andrew's in Boothbay, so a total of three years there. And then I went to New Hampshire, to Weaks hospital in Lancaster. GH [00:15:30]: Okay. TW [00:15:31]: And did, it was called in-service education, which was in charge of nursing education, some administration, and then I moved up to the, they called it nursing service coordinator, which was in charge of the nursing department. So, it was administrative. GH [00:15:51]: Yeah. TW [00:15:52]: And I didn't, I wasn't crazy about that. I was there for a total of four years and I said, ‘eh.’ Yeah, I learned a lot in administration, but I'm more of a hands-on. Yeah. GH [00:16:03]: So, then did you do hands-on after that? TW [00:16:06]: From there I moved to Portland, Maine, and I did. I worked in a high-risk OB office. GH [00:16:13]: Oh, okay. TW [00:16:13]: Yeah. And at that point in time, I got involved with flight nursing when the doctor was gone because he would go away for a month at a time to different seminars and things. GH [00:16:25]: Yeah. �TW [00:16:26]: So, I did high-risk flight nursing, transporting women from northern Maine down either to Boston or Portland. GH [00:16:33]: Oh, okay. TW [00:16:33]: Yeah. GH [00:16:34]: Wow. That's really interesting. TW [00:16:35]: It was, it was really neat. I love doing it. Yeah. GH [00:16:38]: Was that like, how is like is a very stressful like. Yeah, just what was that like? TW [00:16:46]: It is pretty stressful because in northern Maine, a lot of these women would be in early labor or pre-term labor, but there were no facilities in northern Maine to handle a premature baby. So, the idea was to ship them down to either Portland or Boston. So, the moms were really nervous and, you know, trying to get them calmed down and just say, 'hey, you know, we'll get you there as soon as we can. What's the worst that can happen?' You don't want to go through… Look, if you, if you have to start pushing and the baby's born, this is what we're going to do.' Never happened. Pretty close, but didn't happen. GH [00:17:23]: Wow. Yeah. That's so cool. TW [00:17:25]: Yeah. Yeah. GH [00:17:26]: So how long did you do that then? TW [00:17:28]: I did that. That was a per diem job, you know, kind of augmenting my regular job. I did that for about four years. Yeah. And I learned a lot. It was, it was great. It really was. GH [00:17:40]: Yeah. How long were you. So, did you move after that or…? TW [00:17:44]: So, I stayed in Portland and then from there I switched jobs from the OB office to Southern Maine Medical Center, where I was responsible for social workers and discharge planners. Did that for about seven years, and then, sounds like I was a nurse forever. Yeah. From there, I, my, I got married, and my husband was, is a pilot, and he was up in the Rockland, Maine area. So, I got a job with MBNA, which was a credit card company. This was totally out of the, my area doing occupational health nursing. Which was great. GH [00:18:25]: Yeah. TW [00:18:26]: Yeah, I did that for eight years until MBNA was bought by Bank of America and they let all the nurses go. They what we did, we managed workers comp and short-term disability and then did a lot of ergonomic assessments, things like that. And now I'm in a urology office. GH [00:18:46]: Yeah. It's funny how the times change. TW [00:18:47]: Yes they do. GH [00:18:48]: You never know where you're gonna end up, I guess. TW [00:18:50]: It's true. It's true. �GH [00:18:51]: Okay, going back to Skidmore, one thing we've been asking all the nurses that my classmates and I have been very interested in is, what was your reaction, I guess, to hearing about the closing of the program? TW [00:19:07]: I was, I couldn't believe it. Because I kind of lost touch with it, most people, you know, a couple friends I kept in touch with. But I think I got a letter that the nursing department was closing. I was just like, 'Oh, my gosh, that's so sad.' Yeah, so sad. GH [00:19:28]: Yeah. TW [00:19:30]: Yeah. It just seems so sudden to me. GH [00:19:33]: What like, I know some people like wrote letters and stuff, like were, I guess like how did you react to it. Like what was it besides like the saddening? Like were, did you feel like you had to do something or more was it like it happened? And... TW [00:19:51]: Well, I reached out to a woman, who I found out after the fact, Lorraine Amorosi, who graduated in a year ahead of us, but she was in the same clinical group as we were. Apparently, she had been in touch with administration at the college, so she knew more than I knew. GH [00:20:08]: Yeah. TW [00:20:09]: And I said, ‘Was there anything we can do?’ And she said 'It's pretty much a done deal. It's done.' Yeah. Which was sad. GH [00:20:17]: Yeah. TW [00:20:18]: Yeah. I mean I understand the financial part of it which it was my understanding that was the reason, just the cost of keeping the dorm and that sort of thing. GH [00:20:26]: Yeah. TW [00:20:27]: But it was unfortunate because Skidmore Nursing had a really good reputation and... GH [00:20:31]: Yeah, definitely. TW [00:20:32]: Yeah. GH [00:20:34]: And I guess just one last question… Just looking back on your experience, like how do you, how do you look back on it now? Like how do you think about your time at Skidmore? TW [00:20:47]: Oh, with real fond memories. You know, just driving up here yesterday, it's like, wow, 40 years. You can't believe it. You know it, my regret is, oh, you wish you could keep in touch with everybody, but life gets busy and, you know, people move on. GH [00:21:03]: Yeah. TW [00:21:04]: But I was back for the 30th Reunion, and it's like you reconnect where you left off. But I have great memories. Just, yeah, the best, I think, you know, all the professors were wonderful and it was, it was good. It was a really good time. �GH [00:21:19]: Yeah. TW [00:21:20]: Yeah. GH [00:21:21]: Awesome. Well, I think I can stop recording now. � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Grace Heath '19 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Teresa Waters '79 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 21:24 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Jesse O'Connell Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Teresa Waters '79 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 1, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio Interview Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. April 6, 2023 Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/279483278a6bd108443c93ab8d95757e.png 0b165f041b879387c8681b66057f75d8 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/fa8bca7876f84645bb0fd6d27ee3bc79.m4a b5b1c1a23a07d4f87f9331fe9e73aee2 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Grace Heath Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mary Stevenson Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mary Stevenson Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 1st, 2019 Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/ee1107fa101205b73150e0d570dee24c.jpg 7ca0a37ef9b10098868f374df6609baf https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/7cf967780f8369623dfae71cade4406e.jpg 6ef9eafe495027de2fa971f42d1fd6e5 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/6bb14c9b60e1c38e48327974de4b65ae.m4a 21f13d148da2cd96052d09c44715621a https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/be9368872857143025e99629ce68b453.pdf 6e8cd5e71b9c35fa96756683d5e79299 PDF Text Text Interview with Nora Steele '69 by Grace Heath '19, COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, 2019. GRACE HEATH [00:00:00]: So if you could just start by stating your name and your class year. NORA STEELE [00:00:03]: I'm Nora Steele. I'm Nursing class of '69. GH [00:00:08]: So, what drew you to Skidmore in particular? NS [00:00:12]: Well, I always wanted to be a nurse from the time I was like four or five years old. But when it came time to pick a college, I wasn't picking a college, I wanted to go to a nursing school. And my father made it very clear that I had to go to a baccalaureate program. I couldn't go to our local diploma program. And this was, this was even in advance of some of the national publicity. But, and Skidmore had one of the best reputations. It was like one of the top ten Nursing programs in the country. And I came to visit Skidmore and I fell in love and I said, 'okay, this is where I want to go.' And my guidance counselor in high school said, 'Well, you have to apply to another school. You can't just apply into Skidmore College.' And I said, 'That's the only place I'm going to go.' And so, of course, the rejection letter from the other school came first, and I took it back to him and he said, 'No, no, no, no, no, no, no.' It was a clerical error from the other school. But a week later, I got my acceptance from Skidmore, and that was, in like Flynn. And Skidmore was a kind of a perfect, a really good place for me. I made some really good friends here. The Nursing students were spread out across the whole old campus. Some of us were in dorm rooms; some of us were in the old houses. And we kind of got to know each other and then went to New York City. GH [00:01:54]: So backtracking a bit, what was it that made you interested in nursing? Was anyone in your family involved in medicine or? NS [00:02:04]: My mother wanted to be a nurse, but her father wouldn't let her because it wasn't something that a debutante did. That was not, but when it came time during the war, she was a, the housemother for the nurses. And so, she had kind of a nursing interest. GH [00:02:23]: Yeah. NS [00:02:24]: So it was just, I wanted to be a nurse. GH [00:02:30]: So, what was the structure of the program like when you got to Skidmore? NS [00:02:34]: At the time, it was a, it's like a two, it's almost a two plus two. We spent the first year on the main campus, the first summer in New York with some really basic, and at the time, we lived in the medical student dorm. And then the second year we were in Fahnestock Hall. So, they found a dorm for us that was just nursing. And we had both our classes and our dorm rooms were all in the same building. Then we had the second summer off, so the summer right in the middle. And that was what, the time it was set up so in New York State, you could get licensed as an LPN, which meant some of us could work starting then and get a hands-on nursing experience a lot more than we can get just school year. So, some of our learning got to be much more meaningful. I did the LPN and I went to work at the hospital where I was going to go to their diploma program. But I went back and I, I worked as an LPN for the summer and then our third semester was in New York City, was full nursing curriculum. And then our summer after, between our junior and senior year was �also in New York City. And then we came back to the main campus for the fourth year. Now, I did something not really smart. I spent my Christmas money working as an LPN, and a group of us went to Saint Thomas in the Virgin Islands. NS [00:04:22]: And I was hitchhiking with British sailors, and I was in an accident, and I broke my ankle. [00:04:31]: Oh, my gosh. [00:04:31]: So I was now six, six weeks, it was spring break. We had six weeks of clinical and then summer. And then I could come up here and I could do all the classes here on crutches, but I couldn't be a nurse in the city on crutches. So, the faculty were incredibly flexible with me and they let me sit in on all the theory classes and do all the theory exams. I just couldn't do the patient care and the same thing. And the summer program, we just picked something that didn't involve direct patient care at the summer time. So, I did some things that were related to direct patient care that I had previously given. And so, it was, but the faculty worked with me and my classmates to let me finish the program. So as soon as I was off crutches, which didn't happen until after they all graduated in October, I came back, went back to New York City for six weeks and I did my clinical so I finished everything in 1969, but they didn't let me walk across the stage until 1970. GH [00:05:53]: No. NS [00:05:55]: But that was, it was okay. I had, I got my nursing degree and they had been, I mean, they individualized what I needed. And we had an outstanding faculty. I didn't realize at the time, and I've kind of looked back. I am now, I've got a doctorate in nursing. And so, I've been looking at, okay, were the Skidmore faculty involved with the professional nurse’s organization? Were they publishing? Did they do this? Did they do? And I never had a sense of that as a student at all. All I know is they knew, they knew the topics they were teaching, and when I needed something individualized, they set it up. So, it worked for me. GH [00:06:48]: Yeah. So, going more to the New York City aspects of the program, seems to be a pretty big part of it. So, if you could just talk a little bit more about just your experience and going back after leaving, like you were saying and just what was that like being in New York City? NS [00:07:07]: Well, part of training as a nurse, you need to have experience in every type of nursing. And Saratoga Springs doesn't exactly give you the opportunity to have experience in every type of nursing. So, the faculty at Skidmore had the vision to work out an arrangement with New York University. So, we had clinicals with New York University and then we took advantage. The, now the faculty are New York City nurses and they know the kinds of things that are available. So, we worked with the VA Hospital for psych experience and we worked with the Visiting Nurses Association and the New York Public Health Nurses to do, or public health nurses, and then for our obstetric, they went to the hospital where they did most, most of the deliveries in the area. So, it was really, really worked out. We didn't do much with Bellevue, which is the big, because they had their own nursing program and they had an affiliation with Hunter where they were doing some things, so Skidmore didn't do anything with Bellevue. I did get to do some stuff with Bellevue because my patient from public health had to go to Bellevue. So, I had some indirect experience. But we did things in the neighborhood, in the neighborhood where we were kind of, where the dorm was and it was all New York University Hospital. �GH [00:08:50]: What was the, what was the living situation like in your city, being housed with all the other women in your program? Right? Is that how it was set up? NS [00:09:00]: Yeah. It, it was, it was fine. I didn't, we had some interesting, exciting experiences with our elevator operator and the bathing facilities weren't that exciting, but and it wasn't really clean. I know I had, in the medical student dorm, it was very much like the dorms here. It was not, and we had two people in one room and then one person in another. But then we went to Fahnestock Hall and that was generally one person per room or two people in one room and they have another, but that Fahnestock Hall also had a kitchen. So when we were in Fahnestock Hall, we didn't have any meal service, so we got to do our own meals, or we'd go out to eat. So, we all had, like, little bar stoves, and there was a, after my accident when I was on crutches, going up and down the stairs and cooking and going out to eat, it did create some interesting experiences, but my classmates made sure I ate a balanced meal once a day. And there was someone who cooked regularly in the kitchen and they said 'come down to eat with us.' And that worked out really, really well for me. GH [00:10:30]: Yeah. So then going back to Skidmore after having this more, this different experience in New York City, what was that transition like coming back? NS [00:10:44]: The, we had kind of anticipated, I was on the, the newspaper, the newspaper staff when I was a freshman. I got some, and then I did, I was the liaison when I was in the city. So, coming back, I knew I was going to work for the newspaper. So, I kind of just fit right back in there. And our dorm rooms, when we picked out who we wanted to be close to. GH [00:11:11]: Yeah. NS [00:11:12]: And the suite I was in, there was all nurses. But the classes were all mixed, and again, I was on crutches, so I was probably not as involved in some of the things as I might have been otherwise. GH [00:11:27]: Yeah. NS [00:11:27]: Oh, and we were at Kimball Hall. GH [00:11:30]: Oh, yeah. NS [00:11:32]: Yeah. GH [00:11:32]: What kind of classes, then, were you taking senior year? After your… NS [00:11:37]: We had to take a lot of our liberal arts. Our freshman year was pretty much the core, the English and psychology, biology, chemistry. So senior year we got to do the kind of things we wanted to do to flesh out our liberal arts background. So, I took art appreciation and 19th century art and two political science courses, and then we had our nursing seminar. And those are the only courses I remember. But, yeah. GH [00:12:20]: So, then what was your path like after Skidmore? What kind of, what did you do, I guess, after graduation? NS [00:12:30]: After graduation, I started working as an RN, and I went home to my house to where my parents were, and then I was engaged to be married after our graduation in June. So, I knew I arranged for a job where he was living in North Carolina, but I wanted to work �until I went down there. So, I finished school in October. I got my RN license. I went to Strong in Rochester and said, 'I'm an RN, I'll work for, for two or three months here if you'll, if you have a position for me.' So they hired me and paid me and I worked like 11 to 7, something really exciting. And then I went to North Carolina and I worked in the position that I wanted to, which was nursery. GH [00:13:21]: Oh, okay. NS [00:13:23]: And then I went to New Orleans. When I applied for a job there, I got, I was not as educated as or as picky as I should have been. But they said the only position they had, I wanted a job that was on the public transportation system from where we were living. And so, I got the job they offered me was med surg, head nurse. GH [00:13:50]: What was that? NS [00:13:51]: I was a brand-new graduate, you know, I'm trying to graduate with only experiences in LPN as the head nurse on a med surg unit when she's applying for OB Pedes, outpatient. Yeah, because that was where my love was. But I took the job, and I fulfilled the responsibilities with the help of the in-service education people and the chaplain, because I had some fun experiences there. GH [00:14:24]: Yeah. Oh. NS [00:14:26]: And six months later, the position I really wanted opened up. And Pris, who was one of my college roommates met the head nurse from the OB Peds clinic at a conference in Wisconsin, and they had a position as she was leaving. And so, she called me and said, 'you know, the position that you want is coming vacant,' and so I went to talk to the supervisor. GH [00:14:57]: Yeah. NS [00:14:57]: And she said, 'Yeah, I need you.' But that was because of Skidmore contacts, which it's a really small world. GH [00:15:08]: Very much so. NS [00:15:09]: It's a really small world. GH [00:15:10]: Yeah. So how long were you in that job for then? NS [00:15:18]: Four year, four years. I mean, I did the, the job, and then I got promoted to head nurse, and then I got promoted to supervisor. So, I stayed with that agency for about four years. And then I was offered a position at the university to teach, so I started my master's degree. GH [00:15:39]: Okay. NS [00:15:40]: And, and teaching. GH [00:15:43]: Nice, so I guess, one of the last questions I have is, what was your reaction to hearing about the closing of the program? NS [00:15:56]: Anger and frustration. It was like for why? It's one of the best programs in the �country. How come? It's not fair. They need to continue it. It didn't make any sense. GH [00:16:10]: Yeah. NS [00:16:14]: It was obviously something I didn't have any control over, and, and it happened. GH [00:16:20]: Yeah. So then just looking back at your time at Skidmore, how do you, I guess just how, how do you look back on that now, those experiences after all these years of, you know, being in this field? NS [00:16:39]: It's, it's incredible. I didn't realize when I was going through the program. What a solid foundation I was getting in both nursing and, and life. GH [00:16:56]: Yeah. NS [00:16:57]: Yeah, and it, it's some of the same things talked about in the award ceremony today. It's like when you look back and you go, 'wow,' you know. I think part of it has to do with the, the people who come to Skidmore have just a broad spectrum of experiences. When you look at the different countries people come from. I mean, in my dorm freshman year, I had somebody who had been a runner up from Ms. America and somebody else who had grown up primarily in India and in the Foreign Service. And you put those people kind of in the same environment and they find things in common. GH [00:17:50]: Yeah. NS [00:17:51]: And it provides you with a real solid base of working with people. GH [00:17:57]: Yeah. Well, I think I can stop the... � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Grace Heath '19 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Nora Steele '69 Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 18:02 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Nora Steele, Jesse O'Connell Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Nora Steele '69 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio Interview Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. April 5, 2023 Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/d928fd68586b0ecef14421ab921c9cb9.jpg d8e547a74527a32487160313c72776d2 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/014354824acba652bc94fe3b6c36f939.mp3 daae92dd6dac24b9fb947651281ec98a https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/3ea5d8ce2e62cb2c85ca13bc6e9aa1d2.pdf 996d9dd58a2cf6c219693fc421664e8d https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/b779d7b5cc662d2605a58e6ed8e0a6dd.pdf c2f1780e7b6ff38e96f80c4016c574a1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Emily Meagher (Class of 2016) Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bill Fox Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:11:49 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 02/10/21 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bill Fox Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 12, 2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Abstract A summary of the resource. Interview with Bill Fox by Emily Meagher, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, May 12, 2016. Date Submitted Date of submission of the resource. Examples of resources to which a Date Submitted may be relevant are a thesis (submitted to a university department) or an article (submitted to a journal). November 23, 2020 Description An account of the resource Bill Fox was a member of Skidmore’s sociology faculty from 1976 to 2011. During his 35 years of service to the College, he was a valued teacher in his discipline and much appreciated mentor to many junior colleagues. He chaired the Sociology, Anthropology and Social Work Department for multiple terms and served on numerous all-college committees. In this interview he reflects on educational quality at Skidmore; early IT support of quantitative teaching; student-faculty interactions; chairing a joint department; and changes in community life, the physical campus, the student body, academic administration, and the all-college curriculum during his tenure. He ends by musing on the personal impact of a professional life spent at Skidmore. 4-1-4 Academic Calendar David Porter Diversity Eric Weller Fran Hoffman Interdisciplinary Collaboration J. Erik Jonsson Liberal Arts Education Library Renovation Phyllis Roth Skidmore Social Life https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/07655b20fcd8e0cdacb3d4ad6a1ad2d9.JPG e061271ff7375443e901dd14b6cb31f5 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/ef026eb3231c034cb45cc1e9dbe4d608.mp3 ef0736880c35915fc757c8a9e3cc8cd3 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/e26fbe2964fb4be5bfeea4a9ebc17b82.pdf 6b03b55565690103c7a475dac1336c38 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/0557869fec770b39545b9417a7312ef5.pdf 2de12e81e5d8009e6c795e0aef8ec58b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Isabelle Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 3, 2017 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Isabelle Williams arrived at Skidmore in 1972 and contributed to every corner of the campus over the next twenty-one years. Educator, pianist, administrator. Dr. Williams consistently demonstrated her deep dedication to the life of the mind and the beauty of artistic expression. In this interview, she describes the transformation of the Music Department’s curriculum, the Ladd family’s support of music programming, and her contributions to the initiation of Skidmore’s “new” Liberal Studies curriculum in 1982. Along the way, she provides the listener with a lively sense of campus culture during the years of her tenure. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Abstract A summary of the resource. Interview with Isabelle Williams by Susan Kress, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, April 3, 2017. Date Created Date of creation of the resource. November 23, 2020 Campus Culture Filene Foundation International Students Liberal Studies Music Department Palamountain UWW https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/663c25ec77037450f44f1f9dae2afb40.jpg 01b0669d457b30039b2a36be49493e93 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/a017eba25096fa3e216bba35967639f4.mp3 a96bc52d4c2728f18d6de80f28018cb9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Rimmele Wood Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 18/12/2020 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stories of Preserving our Past: Travel Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 18, 2020 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/17b9edff386c7f2179c74f85ee7e682f.jpg 01b0669d457b30039b2a36be49493e93 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/0c065f2d4a82cfbcfd3fe97ecd925909.mp3 123f940c4b6703cabe4245ff62cd922b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adult and Senior Center of Saratoga Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stories of Preserving our Past: Marriage and Children Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 18, 2020 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/b6199091b1801d2297de44ca0fb763ee.jpg 01b0669d457b30039b2a36be49493e93 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/ec0af0c5b8d3c17c02525dcbc3fe0720.mp3 033430ad730c9c207a22a0342e5d310d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stories of Preserving our Past: Working with Medical Patients https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/07a99390fa0887914880829001349300.png 5049b1acea0782c3938ed5578c7ca3dd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Springs History Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1706- Website A resource comprising of a web page or web pages and all related assets ( such as images, sound and video files, etc. ). Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website <a href="http://sacredsaratoga.weebly.com/">http://sacredsaratoga.weebly.com/</a> Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Jordana Dym Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 10/3/2021 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sacred Spaces of Saratoga Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Public History, Fall 2012 Description An account of the resource A website describing the history of the sacred spaces in Saratoga Springs, New York. The Fall 2012 Public History course collaborated with the Saratoga Presevation Foundation to research, report and develop a walking tour. Sites include: First Baptist Church Gideon Putnam Burying Ground Green Ridge Cemetery Bethesda Episcopal Church Saint Clement's Catholic Church Saint Peter's Catholic Church Stone Abbey (Condominiums) Temple Sinai Universal Preservation Hall (Baptist Church) Language A language of the resource english Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource website Type The nature or genre of the resource website Subject The topic of the resource Saratoga Springs (N.Y.) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sallie Kuritsky Justin Tavarez Rebecca Gilligan Jessica Taffet Sara Gross Nate Steward Doug Hamilton Addy Shreffler Roz Rothwell David Schlenker Roz Rothwell Madison Lehrhaupt Jake Dissin Emily Paul Adam Smith-Perez Ashley Copperstone Meghan Leishman Jordana Dym Bethesda Episcopal Church cemetery Gideon Putnam public history religion religious life Saratoga Springs walking tour https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/4dce70b6d97dff7b5ff8fad59a69f0e8.jpg f5db0150df1738d7a6fd39881c6601f6 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/d750011810159bbca86bef97faed1820.mp3 945f7a959ea00f160e50778476244d5e https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/62e9d0eb7d2e95f4232997a92f857029.pdf e6d26e99a8c113ee0e70c691c1885304 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/825f3e8f368418c84cc5a9f5c2f13892.pdf fda8701158f0b8726dc948502417985f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Andrea Wise Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Louise B. Wise Location The location of the interview Newtonville, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:07:45 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 04/22/21 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Louise B. Wise Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 19, 2017 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Louise Beinetti Wise, a 1940 Skidmore graduate, served as president of the then-College Government Association while a student and was active in the Alumni Association after earning a degree in theater. She joined the Admissions staff in 1970, serving six years as director and overseeing an era of growth in applications that continues to this day. After retiring in 1983, Louise maintained her involvement with Skidmore, serving on presidential search committee that brought David Porter to Skidmore in 1987. Named one of Skidmore’s 50 outstanding alumni in 1972, Louise also received an honorary doctoral degree at the College’s 1984 Commencement and an Outstanding Service Award at the 1985 Reunion. In 1983, the Louise Beinetti Wise ’40 Scholarship was created in honor of her talent, dedication and accomplishments. You can hear her describe the arc of her career in this interview.   admissions Campus Move coeducation Honorary Doctorate Joseph Palamountain Nursing Program Outstanding Alumnae Award Outstanding Service Award https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/cf211ed0954f2b1aa7fc92c1131cd125.jpg 2c42e1df19af4e0cac2e1d4b084386ba Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data photograph Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 23/4/21 Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. 1894 Date Depicted (Numeric) Date that the information on the item depicts. In many cases, this will be the same date as that in the date field, but there will be exceptions. For example, a historical map drawnin 1890 might show Saratoga Springs as it was in 1820. Or, the information on the map itself might include detailed information that enables us to extrapolate a date, for example, "based on a survey done in 1841." Many State Archives map catalog records refer to this as the "situation date." 1894 Date Published (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the date field that will display. 1894 Date Published (Numeric) Date the item was printed. This will be set as a date field, accommodating only numbers. The field will be able to handle single dates or date ranges. This will not display, but will be indexed and searchable. 1894 Subject - Details This subject field describes the amount of detail in a map. For maps: (or layers) included on the map itself. This field might denote that the map includes information about, for example, Mountains, Railroads, Soundings, Elevation, or Population. These are controlled-vocabulary terms developed locally. The cataloger should be generous in assigning these terms -- even if only one canal is visible on the map, it should receive a "Canals" subject in this layer. Some of these terms are less specific than others and may warrant expansion in the Abstract field. For example, the "Businesses" term might be included here while the Abstract notes that the map shows mills and stores. Multiple terms can be used in this field. Saratoga County (N.Y.) -- Politics and Administration Subject - Geographic Library of Congress subject headings. For maps: for major geographic locations depicted on the map, followed, in nearly every case, by the "Maps" genre subheading. (For example, "Saratoga Springs (N.Y.) -- Maps.") This field will be especially important when the records from this collection are incorporated into larger databases and catalogs. Saratoga County (N.Y.) Subject - Organization Names of individuals associated with the item. Please put "Tje" at the end: University of Chicago Press, The Board of Supervisors Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Brookside Museum, Saratoga County Historical Society (Ballston Spa, N.Y.) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Group portrait of Saratoga County Board of Supervisors. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1894 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Digital Collections, Brookside Museum, Saratoga County History Center, Ballston Spa, New York. Description An account of the resource A phoBack row, left to right: Frederick H. Beach; Francis J. Dunn; John Person, District Attorney; Samuel Kemp; William H. Mosher; Edward F. Grose, County Clerk; Eugene F. Guiles; Henry L. Trevett; Clifford E. Cady Catalog Number1974.008.0005 Subject The topic of the resource Saratoga County (N.Y.) -- Politics and Administration Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jordana Dym