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13 40 764 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/8a490139188c429472c9bba294a7014d.jpg 786316ef1a9cf19bf83ffc97f9c4cda3 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/8c7bc545d98c897b337600b4a526be16.mp3 42376f4afe241f0b71f16cfe4e5715c7 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/cf49a5b921a0323510c5f73baf6ac47f.pdf 9291c6e701d0865e6b92d295962ccb53 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Dave Marcell Years at Skidmore: 1964-1992; 2001-2008 Interviewer: Lynne Gelber Location of Interview: Lucy Scribner Library, Skidmore College Date of Interview: January 15, 2019 00:00:00 - Introduction by Gelber 00:00:30 - Where Marcell grew up, history of his education. 00:00:45 - Story of how Marcell heard about the job at Skidmore College 00:02:55 - The American Studies program at Skidmore during the ‘60s 00:04:20 - The death of Val Wilson and Marcell accepting the job offer at Skidmore 00:06:00 - Further description of the American Studies Department and Marcell’s responsibilities as the head of the department 00:07:24 - The classes Marcell taught during the beginning of his career 00:09:00 - Growth of the program and becoming a department 00:10:08 - Friction between the American Studies department and other departments 00:10:55 - Course registration of Fall ‘64 00:13:00 - Marcell’s biggest challenges during his career 00:15:20 - The hiring of new professors in the American Studies Department 00:16:00 - How Marcell became the Provost and why the job was open in the first place 00:20:00 - Comparison of Skidmore to other colleges at which Marcell worked 00:21:30 - Challenges of being the Provost at Skidmore College- becoming a co-ed college 00:24:40 - The orange juice riots 00:26:00 - Development of new landscaping and buildings on campus 00:28:20 - Aggregate cost of all capital investment at Skidmore 00:28:47 - How Skidmore came to build the new campus 00:30:28 - Funding new buildings on campus 00:33:15 - Expanding the applicant pool beyond just women 00:35:00 - Mishap writing letters to parents of prospective students 00:37:30 - Describing the collegial culture of Skidmore 00:39:55 - The tightness of the budget during the ‘60s and ‘70s 00:42:40 - Number of females on the faculty 00:44:30 - Rejection of a union for the faculty 00:45:50 - Marcell describes the nursing program 00:47:30 - Downfall of the nursing program 00:52:00 - Beginning the Phi Betta Kappa Chapter at Skidmore 00:54:20 - Discussing how special Skidmore was as an employer in Marcell’s experience 00:57:00 - Having to fire someone for the first time 00:58:00 - Discussing positive relationships with colleagues 00:59:03 - Closing remarks � https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/e208c12ea8a061083426217f919e4a10.pdf 693c01817a67d8f5be220afe5db7c36d PDF Text Text Interview with Dave Marcell by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, January 15, 2019. LYNNE GELBER: This is Lynne Gelber and I'm here with Dave Marcell. It's January15th, 2019. So Dave, let's start by telling us where you grew up grew up. DAVE MARCELL: I grew up in central Florida in the 40s and 50s, my parents retired after World War II. I went to public school in Deland, Florida, and then attended the university that was in the townStetson University. One of my professors at Stetson was an American studies PhD from Yale. He was my mentor and ideal, and thanks to his influence I went on the Yale. Did a doctorate in American Studies from '58 to '64. The last year I was at Yale, I was teaching in the history department and finishing my dissertation and I got a phone call from the secretary in the American Studies department. She said, "Would you please come over here. There's a man here who wants to interview you." I said, "What's that for?" She said, “For a job!" I said, "Well, I've got a job." She said "Well, I don’t know what to do with them. Would you please come over here? He's very nice." And I said, "Well, I've got pick my dissertation up from the bindery and drop it off. I'll be over there in an hour." And I went over, and it was Edwin Mosley. LG: And Edwin's position at the time was? DM: Edwin Mosley's position was Dean of the Faculty at Skidmore College. We had a nice chat. LG: Do you know how he had heard of you? DM: He was, he just happened to swing by. He was visiting doctoral programs in American Studies, and I don't know where he had been before. His degree was from Syracuse, which had a doctoral program. But, anyway, we had a nice chat. I remember saying that I had a job I was going to continue on as an instructor for the following year, but he described Skidmore and the position and I liked him and I said, "Sure I'll come up." And so, I came up with their American Studies department. �LG: Now, was there an American Studies department? DM: No, there was an American Studies program and it had been up and running for three or four years and the person who was coordinating, directing it, was leaving. He had gotten tenure, but he was leaving and he'd accepted a position at Long Island University. So, I came up and they had a long schedule of two days of meetings and it started off with 1/2 an hour with the president of the college, with Val Wilson, and I think this was a Thursday afternoon. I spent 1/2 an hour, 45 minutes with him- lovely, lovely man- and it was just a wonderful conversation and I thought, "My gosh, if the leadership of the college is reflected by this man, he would be a wonderful person to know." And then the Dean turned me over to a faculty member named Irwin Levine. He put Irwin on my case he did. He didn't want the fellow who was leaving to introduce me to the students because there'd been some complexity about his departure and his relationship with the other students. So anyway, Irwin took me by the hand, the arm and squired me around and we were instantly friends. And the rest sort of his history. LG: Except that Val WIlson... DM: I went back to New Haven, picked up the New York Times on Sunday, and there was Val Wilson's obituary. He had died either that afternoon or the next afternoon. He was out playing tennis with a student. He had a heart condition, and he knew that he had this condition, but it was still a very sudden and terrible thing. So Edwin Mosley called up and said, well, our decision will be delayed but anyway, the visit was just terrific. I loved Saratoga and, anyway, they made me an offer and I accepted it. The date of this, I remember because I came up here on the 15th of April and... the year? Oh, God. 1964. Yeah, I remember driving up the Northway thinking, "Gosh, I wonder if I'll be coming this way again." And so, anyway, they made the offer and I accepted it and it was, it was an unusual organizational structure because the American Studies program-and I think was the only interdisciplinary program that had a major- there was an Asian studies program, but I don't even think it had a minor at that time. Anyway, what the director of American Studies did was offer core thematic courses in American culture and then the student major would flesh out this core of courses with courses with courses �in the discrete departments in the American subject areas. And as it happened in those days, the American assistants in history, government, or philosophy were all just really super people so the aggregate of the program, depending on how the students organized their courses, was really terrific. LG: So your title was what? DM: Director of the American studies program. I was... LG: And your responsibility was... DM: I coordinated all the courses, I supervised all the majors, and the majors were only juniors and seniors, but there were about 20. I would guess something like that. I taught- in those days the full load was six courses. I got one course relief from doing all of that other stuff and then I had to fabricate from whole cloth, five new courses, and coordinate with the students supervise the senior theses, which was part of the requirement in those days... LG: So what courses did you teach? When you started? DM: I had a two-semester sequence called the history of American civilization, which was a freshman and sophomore lecture coursetwo lectures in one discussion group a week. And then I had seminars in different subject areas. I had one called American Documents that took traditional all major readings in the subject area. And then I had an interest in American intellectual history. I had, I wrote a dissertation on the idea of progress and its place in the pragmatic tradition, James Dewey and Beard, so I taught a course in American Intellectual history. Gosh, I can even remember- a senior seminar in how to use interdisciplinary sources to flesh out and put into context certain events and episodes in American history and so forth. LG: How many students were in there at the time? DM: In the seminars there would be anywhere from 10 to 15. In the large freshman course, there were 50 or 60 and it was it was a full load. I don't remember a lot of it because it went by so fast. We had a new �baby. LG: So you had 50-60 people in one section? DM: Yeah. Large lecture, two lectures a week, and I broke it down into three or four discussion sections. And then the program grew, and in about, by about '67 we really needed another faculty member and were authorized to do that. I hired a guy from the University of Pennsylvania. Brilliant, wonderful colleague, Stuart Bluman. Did you ever remember Stu Bluman? He spent most of his career at MIT and then at Cornell and he was with us for a couple of years. And at that point we became a department and what, what status that gave us, I do not know, but it created a lot of friction with other departments. LG: Like history? DM: History, Philosophy. Back in those days the departments were really quite siloed and there was great emphasis on each department as a major. There were, other than the Asian Studies program and American Studies, there weren't any interdisciplinary majors. It wasn't until the late 60s the students could create an elective major and then later until the Liberal studies curriculum came into being, and the college made a macro commitment to interdisciplinary team as part of its identity was almost a complete reversal of what I experienced as a as a young faculty member here. LG: Do you think the conflict was competition for majors? DM: Oh yes, oh my goodness. My first formal experience at Skidmore was registration of for the fall semester of '64 and symbolically, the registration was down in the Canfield Casino and each department had a table and people could go around and pick courses out. And there was a senior History major who wanted to take the course in American Documents, but that was a 200-level and she needed a 300-level and I said well I think what I can do is give you some extra assignments, and you can sign up for an independent study. You'll take the 200-level course, do this extra work... and she's all, "That sounds wonderful." So I signed off. Five minutes later, like a V2 rocket, the chair of the history department was in front of me, Louise Dalby, "What are you doing, blah blah blah." I told her what �happened. She said you didn't ask my permission. I said, "Oh, well, it's better to ask permission than excuses, and so forth. Do I have it?" She said, "Of course." Anyway, we became good friends and over the years after that. But I remember someone describing to me the departmentalization as a small well-defined fiefdom of whose boundaries were patrolled by the chair of the department. And that that may echo with some of your recollections, too. LG: What were your biggest challenges, over the years, do you think? DM: Juggling it all, because the field of American studies had a kind of metabolism that was just very rapid, because of its multidisciplinarity. It has all kinds of disciplines and subdisciplines that feed into it. Trying to stay on top of what was happening with the field, as well as make sure that whatever courses you were putting together would be useful and recognizable by people in the field was a challenge. I was lucky I- the second year that I was at Skidmore, '65 or or '66, I went to the state meeting of the American Studies Association and became the editor of a bibliography that came out every year on studies in the theory and teaching of American studies. So I did that for about 10 years and that gave me a kind of professional reason to keep surveying the field and seeing what new programs were offered. What new methodologies and approaches were emerging and so forth. So I kept changing my readings in my courses because when you come out of the graduate program, I was a history- government major as an undergraduate. I had taken one American literature course, but so I had to educate myself in a lot of the areas. So I just kept changing my readings and then try to keep up with myself and stay a paragraph or two ahead of the students. I was also trying to write, and get the book done ... LG: And your program kept growing. DM: And then growing the program kept growing. LG: So then you did some hiring? DM: We hired Prof. Bluman, Stu Bluman, and at what time? I guess about '69 or '70. We hired Mary Lynn, who had spent a year teaching in the history department and gave another dimension to American �Studies. I was trying very hard not to duplicate work that was being done by the Americanists in the other areas, and but by that time, we probably had a total, oh, I don't remember, 30 majors at junior and senior level. And it just kept growing as an enterprise and I stayed as chairman of the department until '77 and then became Provost and academic VP. LG: Now, why did that happen? DM: It happened because I was elected to the search committee for the Provost and we had interviewed three or four candidates and I got a call from the President asking if I would have lunch with him. That was Joe Palamountain, and he asked if I would be willing to resign from the search committee and become a candidate for the Provost job. And I said, "Well if it's okay with the other members of the search committee and if it's okay with the CAPTS committee, yes." And so he did all those bases... LG: In retrospect, do you know why that reconfiguration was taking place? DM: What had happened, and it happened about three or four years after I first arrived at Skidmore, Edwin Mosley, who was Dean of the Faculty, his position was changed into Provost and Dean of the faculty and Norma McCurry, who had been the Dean of the College and who had been in effect, the chief academic officer was moved to report to Edwin. Norma was a brilliant, wonderful woman her- She was a linguist, but she had been in effect, the chief student affairs officer. Edwin, who was a very, very academic affairs. He was he was a very distinguished scholar as well as a just a legendary teacher and so the that division of labor, I think for both of them worked out well. And so what happened was the other person became Dean of the Faculty, do I remember who it was? I'm not even sure. They divided it up at some point. Who became the Dean? Eric Weller became the Dean of Studies and that supplemented some of the academic advising work that Norma had been responsible for. But, by the time Edwin was being replaced, Edwin became ill, and I remember there had to be an acting Dean and whether there was an acting Provost or not, I don't remember. The positions were separated for the purposes of that search, and they ran the search for the Provost first. And then when I was appointed, my responsibility was to run the search for the Dean of the Faculty. That became Eric. We ran a national search on... �boy, these are old synapses, I haven't tested these in a long time (laughs). But Ed, as you can imagine, anybody who moves into an upper level administrative position, after having spent 14 years as a faculty member... Memories are long, issues are complicated, and every idiotic thing I said as a young first or second year faculty member trailed behind me. But, looking back at Skidmore from having moved to other institutions and having worked at- after I return took I took early retirement here when I was 55LG: And what year was that? DM: '91, and I worked at Rollins College for two years. I worked at Bennington College for two years and seeing those institutions and comparing them with Skidmore, Skidmore had a much more professional and collegial culture than those other institutions. As a matter fact, when I went over and worked at Bennington, Bennington was in the middle of a capital campaign and in the middle of that capital campaign, the trustees seized control of the college from the faculty, fired 1/3 of the faculty, and went through the convulsions that... well, they were, they were on the weekly supplement to the New York Times. You may remember some of those things, they ripple out, and Bennington had a culture where every faculty member felt they had a veto over anything at the college and they had a brilliant and interesting and wonderful faculty. But as an organizational structure, their culture was just absolutely toxic. LG: But let's get back to Skidmore. Once you became Provost, what were the highlights, and what were the challenges? DM: Well, the challenges were basically to support the administrative structures that were already in place in terms of both the academic, this cultural student affairs area. All of the deans and directors on the academic side reported up to the Provost and then there were two other VP for business and development. So, one, I had to learn enough about the discrete areas of student affairs, computers. The computers, IT reported to the Provost, and so forth to make sure that we have the right people running those operations I inherited. For example, admissions, about which I knew absolutely nothing. But we happily had a just brilliant, wonderful director of admissions, �Benny Wise, and I asked her what she needed and what I needed to know in order to be her supervisor. She took me under her wing. And we were off and running. One of the first things that she said is we have done some things and haven't planned ahead for doing them. I said, "Well, what are you thinking of?" "Well, we went coed." Well I knew we had done that, but I knew it from the point of view of a faculty member. I said, "What are the kinds of planning steps we might've taken and shouldn't-should have?" She said, "Well, all we did was in effect, say the words, we would no longer discriminate against male applicants, and we sat back and waited. And sure enough they began to dribble in." But, and mercifully, because she was such a creative person, she had a whole series of recommendations on how to make the college more attractive to male applicants. But all of these were things that couldn't be siloed, they had to be decisions made in consultation with the faculty, with plant, with development, with alumni affairs, and so forth. LG: Can you give me an example? DM: Well, how does one prepare a 90% single-sex institution to morph into a 60/40%? What are the things that competitive, coeducational institutions offered that we don't? Well, physical education and athletics was one of them, but was only one of them. They had to change all of the dietetic expectations. Do you remember the orange juice riots? LG: I remember, when the trustees were here. Can you describe the orange juice riots? DM: Well, the boys, as they went through the lines over in the dining hall wanted seconds and thirds, and that was a new experience for the staff over there for planning, etc. etc. etc. And they wanted seconds on orange juice (laughs) and this is one of the things about Skidmore and I don't think I appreciated at the time, but Skidmore was in the in the business of inventing itself as an institution on so many fronts. We were building a new campus. That was one decision that we made which was made in the nick of time. We went coeducational and that's another one made in the nick of time and all of these- both of those decisions involved huge leaps of faith. I remember when I first got here that Eric was taken out to see the new campus by Levine and we drove out into the woods and there was a backhoe digging a hole which became the basement of the library. �And I began to realize as I worked at the college after five or 10 years that every time we built a building, the next year, the interior space of that building would have to be changed because it wasn't just right. And so we were, we were lucky enough to be flexible enough to imagine that as we grew programmatically, we had to change the landscape, we had to change the environment and that in turn changed one of the widgets that was planning the next stage, and so forth. And we were doing this on a shoestring. The endowment for Skidmore when it made the decision to build a new campus was under $1 million and we'd never raised capital money. There was one project I heard about later that we raise the money for father's hall that was on the old campus and that was raised through parental solicitation, but the early campus planning that we undertook projected that the new campus would take 25 years and $25 million. Here we are, how many years later the new campus is still- and the latest building is going up- cost more than the... LG: The Integrated Sciences Building. DM: The integrated sciences building cost more than the whole campus. When Joe retired, I remember him, Joe Palamountain. Joe was president from '65 to '87. I remember when he bid farewell and retired from the campus. He reported that during his tenure, we had constructed 37 buildings. What, how many are we done now? it must be 90 or 100. LG: And some of them have been taken down and replaced (laughs). DM: Yeah! I asked somebody in the administration the other day whether we had an aggregate cost of all of the capital investment in Skidmore, in what the campus is now, and nobody quite has it. So, anyway, I guess I keep shifting my focus because I didn't prepare for this, but looking back, it was an act of faith. How Skidmore came to build the new campus was a series of developments that nobody could imagine. The campus, the Hilton estate, had been in probate ever since the 30s. Lucy Skidmore Scribner had tried to get it for the college but it didn't get out of whatever the complexities were behind that until 1960, and we had a parent who was on the Board of Trustees at RPI, J. Eric Johnson, who was the CEO of Texas Instruments, and his daughter had been a student at Skidmore and she'd gotten ill. I don't know the details, but �the college had just taken wonderful care of her, they'd bent over backwards to make sure she didn't lose time, and he was so impressed by that, that when the Hilton estate came on the market, he offered to buy it and donate to the college if the college would build from scratch a whole new campus. And he did that, as Joe Palamountain used to tell the story: We took a deep breath and decided to go for broke and we almost did. (laughs) And he bought this piece of property, 650 acres, $130,000 donated to the college and we went on a- and this is all before I arrived. We had, I think was a Ford foundation grant, to plan the first iteration of new campus planning and that was what was in process when I joined the faculty in '64. We hired architects from San Antonio, Ford and Carson. They had built a number of campuses, one of which was Trinity University in San Antonio. We have some buildings that look very much like that campus. But the planning was systematic, and so forth. Most institutions, most mature colleges, if they venture in a new capital project, the Board won't authorize it unless you've got half in hand and half in site. The only building that I think we may have been able to do that with was the Zankel Music Hall because Arthur Zankel left us a bequest. And everything else, all we had were plans and hopes and dreams and a certain amount of momentum. And we had a, the New York State dormitory bond issue would- they bonded out some of the first buildings that were built. This library that we’re sitting in now was the firstLG: First building? DM: First building to open, and it opened in either '65 or '66. Do you know what it cost? 1.4 million. And so, but what happened is, we just kept venturing and I wasn't aware of this at all. I didn't think about these things when I was a faculty member. I was trying to get my exams graded and so forth, and so but every year as we constructed more, built more, grew more, our capacity to raise money grew and our ability to attract more students grew. And one of the reasons why Benny Wise was so concerned that we hadn't been planful in going coed was that we'd missed opportunities, because in the decade of the 70s a lot of single- sex institutions went coed. Well, our original plan was that we would build a campus for 2,000 women that was what we envisioned in '62, three, four, not realizing the market for women was going to get extremely tough and tight in the 70s. �LG: Because they could then go to other institutions. DM: They had more choices. Yeah, I remember vividly my first meeting with Louise Wise. I said, you know, "What are your biggest problems and how can I help?" I said, "I don't know anything about your area, but if you know what you need, you tell me and we're going to go get it for you." She said, "We need to expand the applicant pool." I said, "Tell me about that. What was our applicant pool this year?" She said, "Oh, 1,830." I said, "How many did we accept?" "Just under 1,830." And I said, "What were we trying to shoot for as a goal?" We were trying to shoot for, I think, was 400 students in the freshman class and I said, "So you're telling me that we are not a selective institution now, but we aspire to become one?" "Yes." "So, okay, how do we do this?" She had a whole series of ideas. One was using new computer capabilities to communicate with the families of applicants in a very targeted and personal way. And I said, "Well, how can I help?" She said, "I have a project for you. I want you to write a letter as the Chief Academic Officer of the College to the parents of each student and tell them why, from an academic point of view, you think Skidmore would be a good place for their son or daughter." I got to work, and we cobbled up a letter. She was also a very good editor, happily, and letters went out. I get a letter back almost in returned mail. This was this was in March of of my first whole year and it was from a father who said, "Dear Provost Marcell, happy to get your letter. I found.... he said but how are you going to find a roommate for my son Nancy?" And I said, "Oh, golly." So I sat down, "Mr. Owens, we're just venturing as a new way of communicating with parents, we're personalizing our communications, and unfortunately the computer kicked out the wrong gender for your letter and I apologize, but don't worry we'll take good care of Nancy should she decide to come here." And I signed this and thought, I can't send this out. I said, "P.S. I still can't understand why you named your son Nancy." (Laughs) Anyway, come September, there's a knock on my door and here's this very nice guy standing there with a very sheepish young woman, and it was Nancy. But that was the kind of the thing that Louise knew what we should be doing, and she had all kinds of other ideas. And the same thing with computers and so forth. I could barely type a letter on the computer, but I talked with the people in what is now IT, what did we need, and was able to go out and find Ken Hapeman. You may remember Ken, I said the same thing to him: "You tell me what you need and I'll try to get it for you." And help me understand why you �needed it and so forth and so on. So it was, it was easy to do because the institution had such a good collegial culture. LG: Could you describe that culture a little bit? DM: Well, I first experienced it as a faculty member on committees. Academic Freedom and Rights, Tenure, Faculty Council. Those kinds of things. But there was also one committee, that I don't even remember what it was called, but it monitored the budget. And there were two faculty members sitting on it, and so forth, and I just began to realize that while I thought, I probably had been here five or six or seven years before I went on that committee. I thought I knew the college pretty well, and until we walked through the budget, I realized I didn't anything about why these budgets were there, why they were organized the way they work, what the history was of each line item in the budget. And it took three or four years to get that, but there was never any- that I experienced- never any attempt to limit the information flow between administration and faculty, and there were always rumors that Ted Butler really had a pot of gold. LG: Do you want to say, for the record, who Ted ButlerDM: Ted Butler was the budget officer and chief accountant, but what I realize, and in those days that the total operating budget of the college was maybe $20 million. Do you know what our contingency fund was for the college? $250,000 for everything. And every budget was so tight that if any operating area of the college could come in with a surplus, it could be then used for those areas that couldn't control her budgets and so forth. Every budgetary year was an act of faith and throwing of the dice. There was one year, about, and I didn't know this until after I retired and read the history of Skidmore. We had four buildings going up at same time and we didn't have the money for any of them, other than what we were able to borrow through bonding and whatever the capital campaign was going to be able to do that year. We got, and you may remember this because it happened- when did you come? LG: '66. �DM: '66. It happened in 1970. Our auditors provided an audit report to the Board of Trustees that they could not assure our publics that Skidmore would be a going concern given the value of the assets, the indebtedness, the cash on hand, etc. etc. And that's a crisis for an institution. And it was reported to the Board and the Board said we will plunge on ahead, we will redouble our fundraising activities etc. etc. We'll either launch a new capital campaign or something and anyways, looking back from this vantage point, Skidmore seems very different. One of the ways we were funding the new campus- when I first got here in '64, the student population was somewhere between 1,350 and 1,400 students and that was '64. In '65, we grew to 1,500 students, we added 10 faculty members that year and we were going out and hiring young faculty at competitive prices and, I don't know, somebody must've been worried about how we were, because we hired at competitive prices, how we were going to stay competitive for those new 10 faculty as they aged in place because Skidmore's upper level salaries were not competitive, and so forth. So here we were trying to make it up as we went. LG: Do you think it was because there were a lot of females on the faculty? DM: That was part of it because I know there had been times that I heard about back in the depression where married couples had to split one salary and women were notoriously underpaid, etc. Probably when I came here, 3/5 of the faculty were female, something like that. It was like you, somewhere I heard this image at a development conference, and it really struck me to the quick. It's like imagining some guy running down the street with a bag of bicycle parts and is trying to put the bicycle together, get on it and pedal and accelerate all at same time. And thinking back, this is what Skidmore was going through. I can remember in '70 or '72. All of a sudden we were not to get the salary increase for the next year and what a blow this was to people. We all thought, "Oh my God!" Well, we managed to scratch up, I think a 2% increase belatedly after the damage was done from telling everybody no raises this year. LG: Yeah, faculty wasn't happy about that, were they? DM: Faculty was ever happy about anything. And I'll tell you one of the reasons why they're not happy. And this is sort of self-analysis, too. Faculty are really smart and every faculty we've got is the expert in �their field. LG: Do you think that's why the faculty ultimately rejected a union? Remember that? DM: Did we ever really seriously consider a union? LG: We had representatives. DM: Several groups were talking about it I know. I don't know, but it's very hard to go from a situation where, say you're in a department of 10 people and you're the expert on so-and-so, but you've also got opinions about everything, and I remember trying to grasp all of the things that in '77 I suddenly found myself administratively responsible for, and I didn't know anything about. So I'm thinkin, "Okay, well...." Anyway. LG: Those are challenges! Okay so what do you think was the greatest moment for you? Of course, of your career here. DM: Gosh. I'll start at the other end. The most difficult series of experiences was the closing of the nursing department. And that that was difficult personally because the first year that I was here I had in my freshman class a senior nurse who was just brilliant. She was just, and then over the next couple of years, the old nursing pattern was you spend your first year in Saratoga then go to New York for two years of nursing, you take advantage of all those clinical sites and all of the sophistication of the hospitals, and this and that, and then you'd come back to Saratoga for your senior year. And the women who came back to Saratoga from their senior year, they were worldly, they were cosmopolitan. They hadyou talk about growth- and anyways so I always just loved the nurses. And then one of the things that happened in the late 70s, as I kept working with Louise Wise for admissions, she said, "We're going to have a hard time enrolling our class in the nursing program." She alerted me to that about the second or third year. I said, "What's happening? Why, why? We have had at Skidmore since the 20s a baccalaureate nursing program that really is a flagship program." I would venture to say that of all the programs we had at Skidmore, it had the most power and prestige of any of our programs. Better than art, better than, I don't know, what our strong programs were. �LG: Can you describe the downfall? DM: Well, what was happening across the country and, finally by the time our program graduated the last nursing student in '85. Statistically, women who wanted a career in medicine, more women wanted MDs than BSs in nursing. And nursing programs all around the country, distinguished programs were just folding. Well, it's a complicated thing. As we began to realize that this was a problem for Skidmore, we had a building on 38th St., a campus that housed 80 some odd students, classrooms, labs- wonderful building, beautiful piece of location, right around the corner from the big-what was a big hospital down there? Anyway. I remember the year that we finally made the decision that we would close the program, Louise had said we need to enroll 40 new nursing students. We have an applicant pool of X. And if we get 15, we'll be lucky. And we needed to fill those beds in the nursing building down there. I don't know what the building cost. Anyway, it was happening all over the country and we had done studies. The chair of the board directed me to make a study about the field of nursing and what he wanted was a ringing endorsement of the nursing program. I spent three months doing as much research as I could. I came back with a program with a report that said, unless we can find some way of either distinguishing ourselves as different or, whatever, our program is not going to be competitive and that's that. And next we started off with what was, historically, I think probably the strongest program in the college. It was just market forces and, oh God, and we had a very strong nursing faculty. Half of them were graduates of Skidmore and they were fiercely loyal to the program, to the college, and this and that. And one of the things that, as I was trying make this report, we had started a UWW nursing program, and we had 1/2 a dozen students in it. But we had to make use of the Skidmore faculty in order to deliver that program to the UWW students. Well, I said, "Well, is there any nursing program we can affiliate with?" So I went down and talked with the people at Russell Sage. Russell Sage has a very respectable nursing program. And I raise this with the faculty down there and they just curled their lips and would have nothing to do with it because the clinical sites that were available in this area did not compare with the clinical sites in New York. And they were right! On the other hand, what does it take to produce a baccalaureate nursing graduate? Did you have to have all... Anyway, it was doubly complicated as I was to learn because the National League �for Nursing, which was the organization that controlled the standards for the profession, said you could not transfer a course in nursing from one academic program to another. In other words, if you were halfway through your nursing schedule at Sage you couldn't pick up your nursing credits and transfer to Skidmore. The NLN wouldn't....so anyway... LG: I'd like to end this on a high note, though... DM: (laughs) You can edit out some stuff, I hope. LG: One of the most positive moments for you. DM: I think the most positive moment, it's very selfish. We applied for a Phi Beta Kappa Chapter at Skidmore. I think this was like 1970, something like that, and I had gone to a university that didn't have a Phi Beta Kappa Chapter and it had a chapter installed three or four years after I graduated. And one of the nice things about having a new chapter installed is the new institution can pick I think it's five alumni to induct into their Phi Beta Kappa Chapter and Stetson did that for me. So when we were looking at Phi Beta Kappa at Skidmore, one of the criteria is how many of your faculty have Phi Beta Kappa keys. And I was able to raise my hand. And that's small and impersonal. I think some of the big stuff- I was very much in favor of the 4-1-4 curricular change but I didn't play much of a role. I was very much in favor of the liberal studies curriculum because, here we were, as an institution making a commitment to interdisciplinary approaches to...the world is interdisciplinary as we experience it, and so forth. When I first came here, and I had to make sure if I was dealing with Jefferson, I wasn't poaching on the history department's turf or something. And Harry Prosch never forgave me for having the temerity to write about James and Dewey without being a philosopher. Anyway. LG: Dave, thank you so much. This has been fascinating. Bringing back memories... Is there anything that you want to say that we haven't... DM: Well, Skidmore... I think we all knew.... and at different stages in ourI spent off and on 35 years....I retired, I took early retirement when I �was 55, went off and did other stuff and then I came back. And I worked halftime for eight years as a fundraiser. And what I realized is how special, how lucky we are. Yeah, God. When Irwin was squiring me around the first day on campus, we walked across, were out behind Father's Hall and Henry Gallant comes out. How are you, and we chatted, and it was fun, and this is my department chair this and Henry said, "When at Harvard, I did this and that, we chatted." Henry went off and Irwin said that's my department chair, I said "Yes, you both mentioned that," and he said, “he can't go to football games." And he said, "He thinks those guys down there in the huddle are talking about him." (laughs). You'll have to edit some of this stuff out. (laughs) LG: Dave, thank you so much for doing this. DM: Well, there's so much more to talk about, but on the other hand, and I didn't realize this until you-I thought Skidmore was the norm, because it's all coming out of graduate school, I went straight from college to graduate schools to Skidmore and I didn't know anything about... I took the job as Provost at Rawlinson, got there in August and the President told me my first assignment was to fire the athletic director. And I said, "Well, why haven't you done that?" "Well, we were saving that for you." "And have you already reached the decision that should happen?" "Yes." I said, "Okay." He was a very, very nice guy and there was a whole history of conflict with coaches and this and that. Anyway, so, I took him out to lunch less and I said, "What would you like to do with the rest of your life? You're a tenured faculty member and we need a new athletic director, so I have been told." And he couldn't have been nicer. He said, "Well, I'd like to do this and this and this." And I said, "Well, let's do that. " Anyway, our weekly staff meetings are in the president's staff and I'm taking notes furiously. The names don't mean anything. The issues... So I'm taking notes. And about the third or fourth staff meeting Pres. refers to something, and I go back and look at my notes and it was directly opposite to what had been said at the previous day. I looked up and the guy was the vice president for development was looking at me, and he just went..... And I just went, "Oh, shit." But I was lucky with this one when I became Provost, the guy who was the EP for business affairs here was a close friend of Joe Palamountain and he was brilliant guy. He'd been a mathematics major at Syracuse, Jim McCabe, and he was a vice president for research and marketing at Merck before he came here, and he just took me under his wing. We would have lunch once a week and he explained everything and Jim �was a delightful guy in staff meetings. He never argued, and yes was, "Well maybe we ought to try that!" No was "Well, I'm not so sure that's a good idea." I was a faculty member, I was all, "God damn it, we gotta do this, and that." I thought, "I want to grow to be just like that." And it just wasn't in my nature. LG: So a place of good colleagues. DM: Mmm. LG: Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dave Marcell Location The location of the interview Lucy Scribner Library, Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:59:04 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit February 3, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dave Marcell Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 15, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource David Marcell, came to Skidmore as Director of the American Studies program in 1964 and became the College’s Provost in 1977. In this interview he describes early initiatives in interdisciplinary teaching and learning at the College, including a young faculty member’s experience of navigating a curriculum tightly defined by disciplinary boundaries.  Marcell paints a lively picture of the College’s culture and administrative structure throughout the 70’s and 80’s, including the “orange juice riots” and supportive collegial relations. Marcell also reflects on challenges the College faced as it constructed a new campus, navigated the changes created by coeducation, and closed its highly regarded nursing program.  After 10 years away, Marcell returned to Skidmore to work for several years in Advancement.  Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History admissions American Studies Budget Crisis coeducation Eric Weller J Erik Jonsson Louise Wise Nursing Program Palamountain Val Wilson https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/021dc1b39de2d620b04982b05470b5a0.jpg be1e85aa1eec54050c9a5c0040ee3def https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/c848b93c188138981c4e52bf31672b5f.m4a d76b150479d05d6a31538feaeb31dfe7 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/4ac52cf5a10c10aa0efd7ad0152c4a47.pdf 4eaefd00ff67e99f4ccc557f82f59d76 PDF Text Text Interview with Penny Jolly by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, NY, January 17th, 2025. LYNNE GELBER: It's January 17th, 2025, and I'm here with Sue Bender to interview Penny Jolly. SUE BENDER: Your name. LG: This is Lynne Gelber. And Penny, why don't we start by asking you where you grew up and a little bit about your background. PENNY JOLLY: Well, I grew up in Larchmont/Mamaroneck, New York, which is part of the suburbs of New York City. My dad was an American history teacher at the Mamaroneck High School. So, I grew up in a very nice environment. I would have to say a good school system. We lived in a small apartment. We didn't have a house, unfortunately. But it was a very, very good childhood. And my parents would take me down to New York City. I also had a sister, Susan. Or have a sister, Susan. And we would all go down to the Museum of Natural History. And I remember saying to my dad, "No, no, I want to go to the Museum of Natural History," on a day when he wanted to go the art museum, the Metropolitan Museum of Art. And I said, "No, no. I don't want to go see art. I want to go to the Museum of Natural History, and I want to go see Egypt." And he said, "Oh, Egypt is at the Metropolitan Museum of Art." So that convinced me to go. And that was a formative visit, I have to say. I'm not sure how old I was. I would guess 12, 11, something like that. But that was wonderful. And then I started going to the Metropolitan Museum of Art when I would take the train down into New York City, in high school and things like that. So that presaged my future. LG: What was it about Egypt that drew you? PJ: I'm not sure. I just think I found it so interesting. It was so different. And of course, there were mummies. I was a kid. That certainly drew me in. But I have to say, what finally drew me in even further was the Cloisters Museum, which is the medieval branch of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. My parents and I had tried to get there several times and, I don't know, I don't know if we couldn't find parking or it was closed and we thought it was open. There were several problems. And finally, my French, my AP French class, when I was a senior in high school, was doing a trip there because we'd been reading some medieval French writing, and I just loved the Cloisters. I just felt so at home in those cavernous halls and the artwork and everything. So, I remember when I was being interviewed to go to college, I went to Oberlin College, he asked me, "Well, what are you really interested in?" I remember saying, "The ancient classical world, ancient Egypt, medieval..." So, all this old stuff. And he was sort of startled. He said, "People don't usually say that. That's an unusual answer." And sure enough, I got into Oberlin and I couldn't believe it. They had a course in ancient architecture. They had a course, two semesters of medieval sculpture. And I was in heaven. So, I was headed on my pathway to become an art historian, clearly. Page 1 of 17 �LG: Early on. PJ: Yeah, and it was museums that did it. LG: And then you went on for graduate work? PJ: Yes. After graduating from Oberlin in 1969 with an art history major, honors in art history, I went to the University of Pennsylvania. They had given me a full scholarship and I was thrilled because at that point I was married and had a husband who needed to go to med school. So that was the other thing. We had to balance off the big cities where both of us got in with a reasonable amount of money or something. So, Penn was the clear place to go and it was a good choice. So, I went there and I got my master's and I got my PhD and I continued to work in medieval and Renaissance art, as well as early Christian art. It was terrific. Grad school always has its problems, so I probably won't mutter too much about them. Other than things like, on Friday afternoons, the all-male faculty, which of course it was all male, would go to this bar on the corner. I forget what it was called. And they would invite the male students to go with them and we females were never invited. So, the males would come out of the meeting calling everybody by their first names and we would be saying, "Dr. Mynot, Dr. Watson." And they'd be Paul and stuff to them. So, I won't grouse about that, but there was lots of gender stuff that was really irritating. On the other hand, I think I finished my dissertation and got a job before anybody else. LG: Where? PJ: At Skidmore. Yeah. I applied for a variety of jobs and I actually had several offers. But George and I... George came up with me to Saratoga Springs. We had to drive from Philadelphia. And he came with me. Let me think for a second. Yeah. At that point, I was pregnant. LG: What year was this now? PJ: Maybe … This would have been right after 1969... Oh, wait. For Skidmore, it would have been 1976. 1976, right, I started at Skidmore. So anyway, he came with me to the interview just to see what was going on and help with the driving and stuff. We had a daughter already at that point, and so he took care of her while I was doing the whole interview process. And when we finished the interview, we just looked at each other and said, yeah, this is the kind of environment we wanted. A Liberal Arts college, not a big bustling city university. We loved the idea that the Adirondacks are there. We loved the idea of bringing children up in a town like this. And I never thought I'd live on a street like this with interesting, different, lovely houses lined up with a yard. We were able to buy a house, and I think that was not because of my salary which was nothing. $11,000 was my salary at that point. But I think the promise of him being a doctor, the bank was very happy to finance our mortgage. I'm sure if he hadn't been a doctor, they never would have, because we had no money, or very little money at that point. Page 2 of 17 �So, George was done with his residency, internship and residency, and it was a perfect moment for us to come. And we both have loved living in Saratoga Springs. Yeah. Been a great place. And Skidmore's been a great place. LG: So, when you first came, what were you teaching? PJ: Do you mean in terms of courses? LG: Yes. PJ: Let's see. My first semester, I taught Romanesque Gothic art. Art and architecture. No. Maybe I started with Early Christian. Well, it's hard to know. One semester or the other. Otherwise, it was Byzantine, Early Christian art. I think it was Byzantine and Early Christian art. And I was teaching the Survey of Art History, where we shared giving the lectures over two semesters, and then had six discussion groups, three each semester. And then I was teaching, I think, a Renaissance course. It was a lot. I'd never taught any of those courses, except, I had participated in a survey with other people. So, there was a lot of prep that year. LG: Was the art history department a separate department at that point? PJ: No. And that was certainly a point of friction for us, the art historians. We were the Art Department, but that included about, I'd say, 16 tenure lines in studio art, plus quite a few part-timers, and included five art historians. So, we felt very outvoted about things. Our department meetings were all about studio art. Everything was about studio art. So, there were hostilities, but on the other hand, they were very good friends too, among the art people, and some wonderful artists who were good to see. But that was a struggle for a number of years, and we finally, gosh, I don't remember what year it was, but we finally were able to establish our own Department of Art History, separate from the Department of Art. We got a name change. First, it was the Department of Art and Art History. So, we had that for a while as a compromise: but then we really got to be our own department. LG: And who was the chair at the time? PJ: When I came, it was Earl Pardon and then it was Peter Baruzzi. And that took up quite a few of the early years. LG: And as a separate art history department, who was the chair? PJ: The first chair was Katie Hauser. I was Director of Art History. That was another thing, a job they established back when we were complaining about things and still all together. So, I was Director of Art History for nine years or something, which was very chair-like, but not with all the authority of the chair. Page 3 of 17 �LG: So, what were the responsibilities? PJ: Well, setting up the schedule, dealing with students, giving permissions, running hiring. It was a lot of the tasks of the chair, but I wasn't the one who went to the dean, necessarily, and said, "We want to hire so-and-so," and negotiate a salary. The chair negotiated the salary and stuff. LG: Were you the one who reached out to other groups outside of the department to work with them? PJ: I think I really did a lot in that sense. My colleagues in art history tended to be, I wouldn't say exactly a shyer bunch, but they stuck to their own stuff a lot more. And that's not a 100% true. But I was interested in reaching out to the other medievalists, the other people who taught Renaissance courses. For a while we were interested in setting up a Renaissance studies program. And that eventually did not happen, but that was, again, an interdisciplinary reach. Right from the beginning, I was involved in LS, liberal studies program. Not the initialLG: With your own course, or? PJ: In several ways. I wasn't in the summer group that I believe basically put LS1 and the LS program together, but I joined them in the fall. So I was on the committee that was creating LS, and then I taught in LS1 for quite a few years. I also had an LS2 course on Italy. Art and Italy, Art and Culture in Italy. I don't remember what I called it. And then, later, I had other LS courses about gender in the Renaissance and different things. So, I was very supportive. I was the first chair... When we had a committee, an LS committee, I was on it and I was the first chair of it. So that was a lot of engagement. LG: So as an LS participant, liberal studies participant, you had your own section, discussion section, plus youPJ: Yes. We had two, at least. Maybe even three. LG: You individually? PJ: Yeah. Yeah, I think two discussion groups. LG: And then you would be a lecturer for the general? PJ: Not everybody got to lecture, but I did. In fact, a number of years, I did two lectures. One on history because I guess we didn't have a historian, or the historian didn't want to do it or something. So, I did a lecture about history. I did another one about art... Creativity, I think it was called. I think every year I taught in it, I gave at least one lecture. Now, the lectures were big. You did it twice and you had half of the incoming class in each time. So those were in the theater. Those were held in the theater. So that was always a little Page 4 of 17 �daunting. But I had already been lecturing to the art history survey, which at that point had 125 people in it. So, I wasn't totally put off by a larger audience. Can I say, the best thing about LS was meeting weekly with the faculty. It was fabulous. I knew about Freud, for example, but I don't think I'd ever really read Freud in, well, I'm not reading him in German, but in the English translation, the real text. And so there I am. I'm reading Freud and I'm learning so much more. LG: And who was it that was presenting Freud? PJ: Oh, gosh. Terry Diggory, maybe. I'm not sure. SB: Sheldon? PJ: Well, Sheldon gave a wonderful lecture about personality and things, but I don't think he talked much about... Maybe he talked about Freud. I'm sorry. But in any case, it was great hearing the other faculty lecturers doing the readings. And when it came to a topic like Freud, where I didn't feel I knew all that much, I'm doing all this extra reading on Freud. So, I learned an enormous amount from doing LS1. And I also learned lecture techniques because I'd noticed something that worked really, really well, and I'd try to think, "Okay, I could do that." LG: Like what, for example? PJ: I don't know. Maybe... Boy, that's tough to remember. Probably the person, actually, who influenced me the most was not in LS. It was James Kettlewell. And he was just willing to really give information out, give details. He was really full of interesting information. But I can't say I remember what, but I remember observing people. Maybe noticing more what doesn't work. It was a terrific learning experience. And let's see. If I came in '76... Is that right? I'm trying to think when we started the LS program. Yeah. It was right about then. Well, I was there right at the beginning of LS. SB: Early '80s. Early '80s. PJ: Okay, early '80s. SB: Yeah. PJ: Okay. That makes sense to me. I'd been at Skidmore a few years, but I don't think I was tenured or anything yet. I really enjoyed my fellow faculty. And of course, I got to know people in other departments, whom I otherwise would not have. I think that was probably the greatest value of LS, liberal studies. And then, of course, the courses were interdisciplinary, which was great as far as I was concerned. Because when you're looking at images, at paintings, and sculpture, and structures, buildings, the context matters so much. The patron matters, the historical time period, the cultural sense of the time, all of those things feed into the work. And so Page 5 of 17 �having courses that encouraged me to round out the edges of my courses was great. And again, it affected everything I was teaching, not just the LS courses. LG: What role did the Tang play in your area? PJ: That was great. And again, I was on the Tang, I don't know if it was a taskforce or whatever. I was on the committee that created the Tang. So, there we are again. Long meetings. Endless meetings. LG: With whom? Do you remember? PJ: Tad Kuroda led them. Terry Diggory, wonderful Terry, was a super source for everybody in LS. Sheldon maybe was right there from the beginning. I think he probably was. Sheldon Solomon. That's, for the moment, what I'm remembering. Jim Kehl in English was very early a supporter of LS. SB: Now we're talking Tang. PJ: Tang. Oh, God. I'm sorry. SB: Yeah. PJ: So that was Tad Kuroda. That was Terry also. I'm sorry. So anyway, we had meetings and we ended up hiring. And we ended up, really, setting up the architect... Interviewing architects. We had to decide on that, what kind of things we wanted in the building. It was a lot of very interesting work. But those of us who were museum people, who were... [inaudible 00:18:39] now. Who were museum people, we were very engaged with the Tang. And then, I think it added enormously to our classes, our courses. In my parts for the survey of art history, I would try to engage the Tang. And there were some really neat ways. Boy, that dates me, doesn't it? Neat. There were some really neat ways that one could make use of contemporary art from the Tang, even when talking about medieval art or Renaissance art or something like that. LG: Did you bring your classes to the Tang to view and discuss the art? PJ: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then... Exactly. And we would sometimes tour the shows together or have the curator tour the show with us. And we decided to do our discussion groups at the Tang. There were two classrooms there, one of which was a smaller seminar size. So, we began doing that, again, just to get the students into the Tang and hope that they didn't feel like, "Oh, that's on the other side of campus. We don't go way over there." So, they had to come there at least once a week. Our lectures remained over in Gannett or in Emerson. But yeah, students made good use. And of course, we began having internships, having students do their work, study at the Tang. There were fellowships that were established Page 6 of 17 �for students working at the Tang. So, it was a great opportunity for those interested in museum work. And quite a few of our students have gone on in museum work. LG: Were you involved in the hiring of the early director? PJ: John Weber. I think I was. I can't remember how directly, but we did a lot of interviewing of architects and people. I think we interviewed the directors as well. That was a big job, but what a wonderful addition for Skidmore to have the Tang. LG: Did you serve on any college committees? PJ: I think I served on just about every college committee at least once, if not more. Yes. In terms of... Do you want to know special ones, or? LG: Yes. Things that made an impact on you. PJ: Yeah. Well, I think the one that was the most satisfying has to have been CAPT. Working on CAPTLG: Appointments, promotion, and tenure. PJ: Yes, thank you. LG: And sabbaticals. PJ: And sabbaticals too, at that point. It really allowed you to admire your incoming faculty when you saw what they were publishing, what they were doing, what their backgrounds were, as people came up for tenure. There were some very difficult decisions. I'm still haunted. Just the other day I was thinking about this. I'm still haunted by my vote on one decision where I probably should have gone the other way. But maybe that's the only one I feel that way about. But our work was taken so seriously by the people on the committee, as well as by the administration. You really felt like you were part of the important things going on. Should we give this person tenure? Should this person be rehired? How do we resolve this problem? How do we talk to the dean about this or that? And it was wonderful. And I was chair for a year, and that was tremendously satisfying. Really satisfying. It was the year we first had 21 people up or 18 people up. It was an enormous number, so I worked out a system of how we would do it, and it worked really well. I don't know if CAPT still uses my system, but... I think CAPT has changed a lot over the years. But I felt very proud of my ability to lead people in a way that I thought was fair and to negotiate with the Dean of Faculty about things. So that was interesting. But committees like CAFR were important. SB: Academic freedom. Page 7 of 17 �PJ: Academic freedom, sorry. Committee on Academic Freedom & Rights. I was most always on the library committee, because my office was in the library, so I felt I had a really vested interest in knowing what the library was doing. That was a great committee. It almost never met. But with the LS1 committee work and everything, I was always, always doing committee work. LG: Penny, I'm curious to know what kinds of changes over the course of your tenure did you perceive? PJ: I think for me, the biggest change I feel is the relationship of the faculty to the faculty, and the faculty to the administration. LG: For example? PJ: Well, I know this just sounds like rosy-eyed nostalgia, but honestly, when I first came and for those first, at least, I don't know, 15, 20 years, I don't want to use the word family because that's just too trite-sounding here, but we were a cooperative group looking at similar goals. LG: You're talking about faculty? PJ: Faculty. LG: Faculty. PJ: Yes, talking about the faculty here. We were comfortable, mostly, with each other. I mean, there were always some wingnuts, shall I say. But on the whole, we knew people in other departments. You'd serve on a committee and you'd meet the new psychology professor. You'd meet the art professor you didn't know real well. You'd spend time with them. And you would work together on those committees. We would have faculty meetings and largely people came to them, I think. I don't remember it being empty. It was really very crowded. And then we'd have a reception afterword with good food and good wine, and people would stay for it. Now, I know people say today, "Well, I have children. The child center closes at 5:00." And my thought is, "Yeah, I didn't even have a child center," a daycare center. In fact, that was part of women's studies. We started it and I was one of the co-chairs a couple of years in a row, where we really worked on establishing the daycare center. LG: With whom did you work on that? PJ: I'm sorry? LG: With whom did you work on that? Page 8 of 17 �PJ: Fran Hoffmann was the leader. She was number one on that. Susan Kress, Mary Lynn. Those of us particularly who had children, really. We didn't have the advantage of it, but we really wanted to. And of course, that's another whole thing, it’s that I had a baby on day three of my first year teaching at Skidmore in September of '76. And that's another one. I mean, if I can segue into that and I'll come back to changes, but this is a change too. I had various medical problems when I was in grad school and I was basically told, "If you ever want to have children, you better start now." So, we were trying to have a child for a number of years and finally became pregnant. And, of course, it was just when I was job searching and interviewing. And sure enough, I finally did get pregnant, and Joe, Joseph Howell Jolly, was born September 17th, 1976. Well, the semester started, that was a Friday, started on Wednesday the 13th. And this was my first job. I had multiple classes to teach. When I went to the chair of my department, he looked at me and saw me very pregnant and laughed. And just looked me up and down and laughed. He had no suggestions for me about anything. So, I talked a little bit to... Probably to James Kettlewell, maybe Joan Sigfried, Harry Gaugh. I don't know. I at least let them all know I was pregnant. And nobody had any suggestions for me. Nobody said anything like, "Why don't you take a few days off." Or, "I'll cover your discussion groups for you." Or, "It's okay to cancel a class. Let the students know and you can make it up later." Nobody gave me any suggestion of what to do. And I remember saying, "Well, my husband is going to stay home. He's a doctor. He'll stay home and take care of the newborn baby during the day, so that will take care of it." And that is what George did. He had a gruesome schedule where he taught 12... Rather, he worked in emergency room 12 hours overnight, a 12-hour shift during the week, and then two 12-hour shifts on the weekend when I was home. So, he was working at the emergency room while I was teaching. And we were both zonked and exhausted, but we survived. But I remember just nobody being any help whatsoever. And it just so amazed me, in my department, the women I heard from were in English. Susan Kress, Mary Lynn in American studies. All those people were saying, "How are you doing?" The secretary of the Art Department, when she said there was a meeting that next Friday, so Joe would have been a week old, and I said to her, "I am so tired. I just don't know I can come." And she said, "You go home. You get some time in bed. You don't need to come to the faculty meeting." LG: And who was this? PJ: It wasn't Denise Hughs yet. Oh, who was it? I can't think right now. At any rate, that was so nice of her. So, I went home. She told me to go home. That it was all right. But see, I didn't know it was all right to miss the faculty meeting, and I needed people to say I could have canceled a class. I didn't. I think I put one class off until the next day, and it was a small class and the students were able to do it the next day. And that was a great help. It Page 9 of 17 �was an evening class. By that time, I just needed to get into bed. So yeah, I had a crummy schedule. That was 6:30 to 8:00 o'clock or something. So, we did it the next day. But that was weird. But my larger experience at Skidmore was that people were really helpful. And it was people in other departments than my own department, quite honestly. James Kettlewell was a dear, a sweetheart, and would have done really anything I asked. But he was so involved in so many things and so scattered, it was hard to ask him to do things. Although, he did dig my car out one day from the snow, which I totally appreciated. It was totally kind of him to do that. But back to the question about changes. It felt more like a family. People communicated with each other. They talked with each other. We didn't have e-mail, so we talked. We'd pick up the phone if we needed to talk to someone. Maybe that's one of the big, big differences. It felt we had a common purpose. We cared about the students. We wanted to do things well. We talked about difficulties. The women's studies group was absolutely wonderful. I couldn't join it at first because I had this newborn baby and barely had a... And an older child. My daughter, Jenny, was five at that point and she was going to kindergarten for half a day. So, there was a lot of negotiation of home care, and George, and then other people, and stuff. But women's studies, when I had enough time to finally meet at the meetings, was just great. They were so supportive. We talked about real things like childcare. So, I became very involved with women's studies. They were just wonderful. And there were some men involved. I also did the Writing Across the Curriculum program. And again, I got to know people in the English department, Phil... What's his name? Phil... LG: Boshoff? SB: Boshoff? PJ: Boshoff. Thank you. He was running that. And a wonderful woman... Well, in any case, Susan Kress was involved again, Phyllis Roth, all those great leaders, later leaders or current. Well, not current today, but leaders in their own departments and in women's studies, those great people. LG: What about the relationship with the administration? PJ: It seemed to me much friendlier, much more open, much more that you could go and talk to people. And they'd be there after the faculty meeting. So, you could walk up to the president. There were receptions. LG: And who was the president at the time? PJ: When I came, it was Joe Palamountain. And when he saw me pregnant at the opening of my first semester, he also looked me up and down and rather laughed. And I thought, "Great." But any rate, but he accepted me. It was fine. Page 10 of 17 �Oh, and by the way, Joe was born later that afternoon on Friday. Another funny part of that story is that at the end of class, the second or third discussion group, one of the students said to me, "Professor, can I come and talk to you about some things?" And I looked at my watch and I said, "I can't. I have to go to the hospital now. My husband's picking me up because I'm going to have my baby." And I did. I had it at 5:10 that afternoon. I was teaching until 12:00, noon. So, it was all pretty crazy, but George was pretty supportive and that meant everything, so... Anyway. LG: Can you talk a little bit about your experience with the development of women's studies as a curricular program? PJ: Oh, yeah. It took some doing with the curriculum committee, although we women had infiltrated a lot of these organizations. The dean was supportive. That was Eric Weller. So, I remember him in general being supportive of women's studies. But there were others on campus who were less so, for sure. And we wanted things like, I think this was now into the '80s, things like gender-free language in the reports of the board of trustees and all official documents and things. And we got some pushback from various faculty in different departments that that was silly, we didn't need to do that. But we got it through. At this point, if you were the director or co-director of women's studies, you didn't get any time off, or any kind of credit or anything. It was very, very frustrating. But eventually, we got a position of the, probably Director of Women's Studies, I guess it was. And we hired Mary Stange as the first director, I think. Yeah, I think she was the first. So, we were in pretty good shape with the administration, I would say. And that helped a lot. We began teaching courses. We realized we had to have an intro, 101-kind of course for Women's Studies. And we put that together and we had to twist department chair's arms to let so-and-so free to teach that course, because then they weren't teaching their sociology or whatever course. Sociologists were very supportive. And it was a great department. Psychology was real supportive. History. Languages even. So, we had people who were really interested and really the program began to grow. And we got good students and good enrollments. And we established a lecture series, the Coburn Lecture series. We really became a real department, a real presence. LG: And that lecture series was meant to do what? PJ: To publicly have lectures about gender issues. I remember a wonderful one talking about medicine and gender issues. About how all the research on heart attacks and on this and on that and on that were done on male studies. There were no women included in the studies. And they began to realize, "Wow. There are women too." And women needed to be in the heart attack studies as well, because their experiences could be a little different. I don't remember who gave that lecture, but it really was eye-opening. I thought it was terrific. LG: Now, you mentioned that at first it felt like a family. Page 11 of 17 �PJ: Yeah. LG: How did it evolve? PJ: It's evolved in the last, maybe, I don't know, 20 years, 15 years, where it seems to me the faculty are just really disgruntled. I think morale is low and it wasn't quite so low back in the earlier days. I think they just feel disgruntled about maybe salaries. Although salaries have taken some improvement, thank heavens. About time. They don't want to stay. People don't want to be at meetings. I mean, the committee meetings used to be at 5:00 o'clock, 5:30. It wasn't easy for any of us, but that's when we had time to do committee meetings. Or maybe at 8:00 o'clock. And I don't know. People began just complaining and say they couldn't do that or they wouldn't do that. How are you going to get a committee of eight people together in the middle of the afternoon or the middle of the day? So, I see faculty as disgruntled. LG: Did this involve separation from administration in some way? PJ: Well, we had a wonderful, wonderful president, David Porter. Who was followed by a president that was not at all well-liked and really had some problems. I was on CAPT during that person and it was not good. LG: And that person was? PJ: Jamienne Studley. Yeah. So, there was real issues with her. I don't recall how long she stayed. Five years, maybe? Four years? I don't know. But she finally did leave and that was to the better. But again, we got in a chair, rather a president, I don't know. I have mixed feelings about him, John Berman. Maybe okay. SB: Dean. PJ: Oh, he was dean of faculty. I'm sorry. Yes, we needed a new dean. Who came after Jamie? Who was next? SB: Phil. LG: Phil. PJ: Phil. Okay. LG: Phil. Phil Glotzbach. PJ: Phil. And I think he settled things down in a lot of ways, which was good, which was helpful. That's right, I was on CAPT and we hired Phil, as I think about it. Right? But I think they're more disgruntled. I think there's more busywork. I think there's a ridiculous amount of busywork. And that seems to be true in the world at large. Filling Page 12 of 17 �out papers and doing things. E-mail. I have such mixed feelings about e-mail. It was great to handle certain things with students via e-mail. Absolutely fabulous. It really opened us up. I mean, when I came to Skidmore, what you could do would be mimeograph a note. And by the way, in our department when I came, studio art was still on the old campus downtown and that's where the secretary was. So, if the art historians needed something from the secretary, we had to drive downtown or bicycle downtown, and then come back up to campus. It was so nice when... Oh, what department was it? Math, I think. I think it was Mark who... Well, someone in math said to me, "You can use our mimeo machine when you need to mimeograph something for the faculty. You don't have to drive downtown to use the art department mimeograph." I mean, that was likeLG: You had to have a card or something? Or something special to use it? PJ: No, it was just in the secretary's office. Yeah. It was just controlled. So, I began doing my committee mimeos and student mimeos and things. Turning those out in the math department, thank heavens. So, any rate, they were... I don't know. The administration just didn't feel as close to us. It didn't feel that we were as united as we used to be. But I largely feel it was the faculty that changed. And they were disgruntled, and it's true our salaries were low. LG: Penny, what have you been doing since you retired and what year did you retire? PJ: Okay. I retired in spring. LG: Okay. Some more of your highlights? PJ: Oh, there's a bunch of them. Let me just start by saying, I really enjoyed all my years, 42 or 43 years, whatever it was. Yes, because I resigned, or I retired in 2019. The spring semester, 2019. So that was 43 years. I really enjoyed it on the whole of the students. I loved preparing lectures. I love preparing classes and discussion groups. I really enjoyed it. So, on the one hand I have to say, the job was a highlight. But more specifically, I think there were several things that really stand out. For instance, back to women's studies, which was so important for me in so many ways. I'm very proud of the daycare center being set up. Now, I was not the primary mover. Fran Hoffmann really was the person who worked more on that than anyone else. But I was involved in supporting that, involved in getting it established. I worked on it with her and others. And that was just such a wonderful addition to Skidmore. And for all of us older faculty who'd had kids and had not had the pleasure of a daycare center, this felt enormous. I think another enormous highlight has to do with the Tang. John Weber really wanted the faculty to be curating interdisciplinary exhibits. And I went to him after one of our meetings [inaudible 00:43:34] [about exhibits] where he was asking for these and saying he needed them. And I said, "I've been thinking a lot about hair in the Renaissance lately. Page 13 of 17 �The meaning of hair. What do you think about hair as a topic?" And he practically hit the ceiling in joy. He was just really excited. John was a great guy, John Weber. And so, I began thinking more about it and thinking, "This would really be fun." And I'm not always a team player. I like control. I think the idea from John would have been that I would have multiple people working with me on the show. Someone from biology, the biology of hair. And someone from, I don't know, whatever. But I didn't really want that. I wanted to be in charge. I wanted my show. So, I began working on it and showing John what I had, and it really was coming together. They began putting in the loan requests and all the things. And I feel like that was very successful. I also was adamant that I wanted the catalog to be at the show's opening. I think it is still the only show the Tang has put on where the catalog was available when the show was available. I just said, "I want these essays." So, I also edited a book of essays for the Tang. I wrote, I think, I don't know, four or five of them, but then I did involve people from other parts of the college in writing essays. So, there's some really nice ones there. Gerry Erchak, Amelia... In my own department, Amelia... Not Rosner. Well, I'm sorry, Amelia. I'm blanking on your last name right now. But several people who wrote really terrific essays, Susan Walzer, and things. And I think that show was a great success. I still have people coming up to me and saying, "Aren't you the person who did that hair show at the Tang?" And I still get e-mails from people asking me questions about hair. I still get e-mails asking me to do an interview about hair. So that's hung on, shall we say. And that was the Tang and that was great. I think another highlight was when I was awarded the Moseley lecture for my research, which is a special named lecture at Skidmore. I pulled together materials and I felt like that lecture was, in some ways, the best lecture I've ever given. It really was interesting, and I heard some great comments from people whom I respect. And I did go on to publish pieces of it and then more of it. LG: And what was the topic? PJ: The, and this is in quotes, "pregnant" end quote, Mary Magdalene. It's about Mary Magdalene the saint, the Christian saint, being symbolically pregnant, not physically pregnant by Christ, as some have claimed. The Dan Brown suggestions. But rather, she was spiritually pregnant. She was infused by the Word of God, by God, similar in a way to Mary, but did not give birth to anything other than grace and positive ideas. So, I was very proud to do that lecture and I was super pleased at how well it went. LG: Penny, you've been very active in the community and at Skidmore with other retirees since you've retired. PJ: Yes. LG: Tell us about that, if you will. Page 14 of 17 �PJ: That's been really very nice of them to keep asking me to give lectures. I've been very happy doing those. It's fun to think about topics. So, we've been doing online lectures... LG: For retirees? PJ: For retirees, for the retiree group. And most recently, I gave a tour of an exhibition I have curated up at the Hyde Collection in Glens Falls. And that's been my biggest activity since I retired. Of course, retirement is broken into by the pandemic, and travel plans were missed and getting to museums was missed and all kinds of things were slowed down. This exhibit should have been done earlier, but it was held up for a whole bunch of reasons. In any case, it opened this fall and just closed January 5th. This is an exhibition about childhood in Italy, 1400 to 1500. It's called Growing Up in Renaissance Italy, Childhood in Italy 14... I must have the title wrong. I can't believe it. Growing Up in Renaissance Italy. I don't know, any rate, Childhood From 1400 to 1600. It was a terrific topic to work on. It's a topic of interest to a huge number of scholars right now, huge amount of scholarship on childhood in Italy, specifically in Florence also, which was my focus. So, I just had the fun of reading all kinds of things I hadn't read before, from history and anthropology and different areas, about childhood. It was really a terrific thing to work on. And then putting it up this fall, having it all come to fruition, I've also heard really positive feedback from a number of people about it. So, I've been very pleased. And it really kept me busy all fall because I gave so many tours of the exhibition. I was over there a lot, but I couldn't go for the de-installing. I thought, "I'll be just too sad, seeing them take everything down and crate it up." So, I avoided that this past week. LG: Anything else we should add that we haven't asked you about? PJ: Travel. One of the great things of my job is, I really had to travel. I had to go to Italy. I had to go to Belgium, Netherlands, France, England, Germany, Spain, all these great places. Because it was so important to see and experience the things you talk about. So, Skidmore has been very supportive of that. I have to say, the faculty research grants helped enormously with all that. LG: Those were the faculty research grants while you were still an active faculty member or as a retiree? PJ: When I was active. And I also have gotten a couple of them since I retired, which has been very generous of Skidmore. LG: From the... That's thePJ: The retirementLG: ...retiree group- Page 15 of 17 �PJ: ...group. Right. LG: ...that has funded you. PJ: Yes. Right. And that's for faculty and staff can be funded. So, they funded some of my travel when I was working on the show and some other elements. So that was terrific. LG: Those grants don't come from the College. Those come from the Retiree Initiative Planning Group. PJ: Okay. Have to hear more about that at some point. Again, I don't know. That was support from Skidmore. I do remember once going into Eric, because on a sabbaticalLG: Eric Weller? PJ: Eric Weller, Dean of Faculty. And I was taking a long and very expensive trip, and I asked him was there any chance he could give me more money, because I really needed to do this for the, I don't know, the book or something I was working on. And he did. I mean, he gave me a chunk of change. Which was really incredibly helpful at the time. My husband and I had divorced, and so my income was dramatically different. That was very helpful. And my second husband, Jay Rogoff, has been wonderful because he's been able to take time to travel with me. George almost never could, because of his job. But Jay is great in helping. LG: Anything else we should cover? Well, I want to thank you ever so much for participating in this project. PJ: You're most welcome, Lynne and Sue, most welcome. Wish you luck with it. Page 16 of 17 �Page 17 of 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Penny Jolly Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 52:32 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Sue Bender Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Penny Jolly Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 17th, 2025 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Penny Jolly grew up in the greater New York City area where she was very influenced by museums in the city. After undergraduate study at Oberlin and graduate degrees from the University of Pennsylvania, Penny arrived at Skidmore in 1976 where she taught courses in art history, especially Renaissance art and became Director of Art History as well as an active member of the Liberal Studies program and the Women’s Studies major. In this interview she discusses the separation of art history from studio art as separate departments, the faculty committee system, the creation of the Skidmore Daycare Center, and evolving relations between faculty and administration. Penny retired from the faculty in 2019. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/edee9102eb2a10690fc53e3cffcb505e.jpg f0b4d8158935ce34a506d36a4bfd7aeb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mapping Saratoga Springs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1700- Map Cartographic document Creator - Individual Name of the person or people responsible for creating the item. Anthony, Charles Creator - Organization Company, government agency, or other organization responsible for creating the item (the publisher should not be listed again here unless the same organization had a role other than that of publisher in sponsoring or creating the map). State Reservation Commission Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. 1915 Date Depicted (Numeric) Date that the information on the item depicts. In many cases, this will be the same date as that in the date field, but there will be exceptions. For example, a historical map drawnin 1890 might show Saratoga Springs as it was in 1820. Or, the information on the map itself might include detailed information that enables us to extrapolate a date, for example, "based on a survey done in 1841." Many State Archives map catalog records refer to this as the "situation date." 1915 Date Published (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the date field that will display. January 1915 Date Published (Numeric) Date the item was printed. This will be set as a date field, accommodating only numbers. The field will be able to handle single dates or date ranges. This will not display, but will be indexed and searchable. 1915 Abstract (& Historical Note) Natural language description of the map itself, providing a general summary of the map and noting significant features. This is the place to introduce keywords and proper names that might be of interest to researchers, but do not warrant a separate subject heading of their own. Inset maps should also be described here, with their full titles given. Whenever historical or explanatory information is available, it should be included here as well. This includes information about items or events that are larger than just the map itself; for example, information about cartographers, a description of the map's historical significance (for example, "This is the first printed map of Saratoga Springs"), notes on the laws leading to a map's creation, descriptions of changes in state or county lines, information about the organization that created the map, how often maps were updated, and information about the map's creation and publication. Many State Archives maps have historical information in the catalog record -- that should be captured in this field. This map is part of a three map series that the State Reservation Commission included in their 6th Annual Report to communicate what lands they had acquired for planning future park development and springs conservation. This map focuses on connection between the State Park and downtown. Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Saratoga Room, Saratoga Springs Public Library Scope Tiered geographical location (for example: United States, New York State, Saratoga County, Saratoga Springs, Congress Park). This field is here for two reasons: first, to present, at its narrowest level, the scope of the entire item (in other words, not every place name has to be listed here). Second, this field will allow for accurate and helpful narrowing and broadening of geographic searches. City Type For Maps: This subject field describes the purpose of the map. This is a controlled-vocabulary field using terms developed for this project. It is important to note that Map Theme and Map Type are not hierarchical, thus it is possible to have the two fields overlap or even duplicate each other. In determining the purpose of the map, the cataloger should consider the publisher, and, (if known) original use of the map. For example, a map that shows a wide variety of information might be a candidate for General in the map_type field, however, if it was prepared by the state geologist and contains, in addition to everything else, substantial information about the geology and topography of the state, it would be classified as a Geological map. Multiple terms can be used in this field. Color maps Railroad map Theme For browsing purposes, we are borrowing and adapting themes from the Library of Congress's American Memory project. Environment and Conservation Subject - Details This subject field describes the amount of detail in a map. For maps: (or layers) included on the map itself. This field might denote that the map includes information about, for example, Mountains, Railroads, Soundings, Elevation, or Population. These are controlled-vocabulary terms developed locally. The cataloger should be generous in assigning these terms -- even if only one canal is visible on the map, it should receive a "Canals" subject in this layer. Some of these terms are less specific than others and may warrant expansion in the Abstract field. For example, the "Businesses" term might be included here while the Abstract notes that the map shows mills and stores. Multiple terms can be used in this field. Boston and Maine Railroad (B&M Railroad) Compass rose Delaware and Hudson Railroad Corporation (D &H, R.R.) Hudson Valley R.R. (N.Y.) Subject - Geographic Library of Congress subject headings. For maps: for major geographic locations depicted on the map, followed, in nearly every case, by the "Maps" genre subheading. (For example, "Saratoga Springs (N.Y.) -- Maps.") This field will be especially important when the records from this collection are incorporated into larger databases and catalogs. Congress Park (Saratoga Springs, N.Y.) High Rock Park (Saratoga Springs, N.Y.) Geyser Park (Saratoga Springs, N.Y.) Place of Publication The city (and if necessary) state or country of publication. Saratoga Springs, N.Y. Scale The scale of the item (if known) 1600'= 1" Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Deirdre Schiff Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 3/9/2015 Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 21 x 42 cm. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Map of a part of Saratoga Springs made by the State Reservation Commission under the direction of the Consulting Engineer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 1915 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. 6th Annual State Reservation Commission Report Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony, Charles Ziegler, J. map https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/a8af1600f1e8966fd246ec8f1530a7a3.jpg 8a5cfee6b16986599eb8bbd3524b8ecd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mapping Saratoga Springs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1700- Map Cartographic document Creator - Individual Name of the person or people responsible for creating the item. Anthony, Charles Creator - Organization Company, government agency, or other organization responsible for creating the item (the publisher should not be listed again here unless the same organization had a role other than that of publisher in sponsoring or creating the map). State Reservation Commission Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. 1915 Date Depicted (Numeric) Date that the information on the item depicts. In many cases, this will be the same date as that in the date field, but there will be exceptions. For example, a historical map drawnin 1890 might show Saratoga Springs as it was in 1820. Or, the information on the map itself might include detailed information that enables us to extrapolate a date, for example, "based on a survey done in 1841." Many State Archives map catalog records refer to this as the "situation date." 1915 Date Published (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the date field that will display. January 1915 Date Published (Numeric) Date the item was printed. This will be set as a date field, accommodating only numbers. The field will be able to handle single dates or date ranges. This will not display, but will be indexed and searchable. 1915 Caption This field will include transcriptions of text that appears on or around the item, at the discretion of the cataloger. It should include relevant bibliographic information that is not given in the title, for example, "Top of map: 'EXAMPLE NEEDED' Publisher and printer information might also be included in this field: "EXAMPLE NEEDED.'" Note that the location of the printed text is given in the field itself and that the caption information is always included in quotes. Bottom left: "Drawn by Ziegler, traced by Ziegler" Abstract (& Historical Note) Natural language description of the map itself, providing a general summary of the map and noting significant features. This is the place to introduce keywords and proper names that might be of interest to researchers, but do not warrant a separate subject heading of their own. Inset maps should also be described here, with their full titles given. Whenever historical or explanatory information is available, it should be included here as well. This includes information about items or events that are larger than just the map itself; for example, information about cartographers, a description of the map's historical significance (for example, "This is the first printed map of Saratoga Springs"), notes on the laws leading to a map's creation, descriptions of changes in state or county lines, information about the organization that created the map, how often maps were updated, and information about the map's creation and publication. Many State Archives maps have historical information in the catalog record -- that should be captured in this field. This map is part of a three map series that the State Reservation Commission included in their 6th Annual Report to communicate what lands they had acquired for planning future park development and springs conservation. This map focuses on the areas to become the State Park: Geyser and Lincoln Parks. Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Saratoga Room, Saratoga Springs Public Library Scope Tiered geographical location (for example: United States, New York State, Saratoga County, Saratoga Springs, Congress Park). This field is here for two reasons: first, to present, at its narrowest level, the scope of the entire item (in other words, not every place name has to be listed here). Second, this field will allow for accurate and helpful narrowing and broadening of geographic searches. Neighborhood/District Type For Maps: This subject field describes the purpose of the map. This is a controlled-vocabulary field using terms developed for this project. It is important to note that Map Theme and Map Type are not hierarchical, thus it is possible to have the two fields overlap or even duplicate each other. In determining the purpose of the map, the cataloger should consider the publisher, and, (if known) original use of the map. For example, a map that shows a wide variety of information might be a candidate for General in the map_type field, however, if it was prepared by the state geologist and contains, in addition to everything else, substantial information about the geology and topography of the state, it would be classified as a Geological map. Multiple terms can be used in this field. Color maps Theme For browsing purposes, we are borrowing and adapting themes from the Library of Congress's American Memory project. Environment and Conservation Subject - Details This subject field describes the amount of detail in a map. For maps: (or layers) included on the map itself. This field might denote that the map includes information about, for example, Mountains, Railroads, Soundings, Elevation, or Population. These are controlled-vocabulary terms developed locally. The cataloger should be generous in assigning these terms -- even if only one canal is visible on the map, it should receive a "Canals" subject in this layer. Some of these terms are less specific than others and may warrant expansion in the Abstract field. For example, the "Businesses" term might be included here while the Abstract notes that the map shows mills and stores. Multiple terms can be used in this field. Compass rose Delaware and Hudson Railroad Corporation (D &H, R.R.) Hudson Valley R.R. (N.Y.) Subject - Geographic Library of Congress subject headings. For maps: for major geographic locations depicted on the map, followed, in nearly every case, by the "Maps" genre subheading. (For example, "Saratoga Springs (N.Y.) -- Maps.") This field will be especially important when the records from this collection are incorporated into larger databases and catalogs. Geyser Lake (N.Y. : Lake) Geyser Park (Saratoga Springs, N.Y.) Geyser Creek (Saratoga Springs, N.Y.) Saratoga Springs (N.Y.)--Corporation Line Place of Publication The city (and if necessary) state or country of publication. Saratoga Springs, N.Y. Scale The scale of the item (if known) 200'= 1" Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Deirdre Schiff Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 3/9/2015 Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 81 x 44 cm. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Map of Geyser and Lincoln Parks with Pine Promenades connecting made by the State Reservation Commission under the direction of the Consulting Engineer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 1915 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. 6th Annual State Reservation Commission Report Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony, Charles Ziegler, J. map https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/b1334f91b2f974db3a8fada3bf57ad48.jpg baaf515533d48776e4af5a6332f28efb https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/cc3c2b3369aa423f6aceec20e4e8305e.jpg 6d60cd007cf5cabc1c54254f5a511398 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/b99467499816da75a68ce05fb66d1c6b.jpg 68d0b96072bf1047e4fe3bf954958ec9 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/381e06813775bdef27ec6f3d1a479018.jpg 6bfd07341de1311558161df1cd75e0df Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adult and Senior Center of Saratoga Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sixty Years Young Planning Meeting Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 26, 2015 Description An account of the resource Adult and Senior Center director Lois Celeste, Dee Sarno, Crystal Moore (Social Work), Jordana Dym (MDOCS/History) and others meet to discuss the memory project and planning for a gala in November 2015. https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/02e3def063593fb2bd2711ce243dd60a.png 2a0e907ea201221848458e5da86349e4 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/1ac21893e7e00a856549fa7d24704db4.png fb957750292eaad629701f95e49e77a7 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/24f8140c153cf0027a15878f23939476.png a82a92e263bc6e20a29aaefba1f2fe5b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Mattie Saulnier Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 5/5/21 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Excerpts from the 1918 Automobile Journal Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 10, 1918 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. The Automobile Journal Description An account of the resource Some experts from the journal which pertain to Saratoga County Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mattie Saulnier automobile journal Mohawk transportation https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/11d773e8c185e28912ada4b8046dd8fe.png 2a0e907ea201221848458e5da86349e4 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/651db84778613e88e01c155c0a0dc2c8.png fb957750292eaad629701f95e49e77a7 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/7caef61349b0eb8dfd0d066ee7da8968.png a82a92e263bc6e20a29aaefba1f2fe5b Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Mattie Saulnier Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 5/5/21 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Excerpts from the 1918 Automobile Journal Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 10, 1918 Description An account of the resource Some experts from the journal which pertain to Saratoga County Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mattie Saulnier Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived The Automobile Journal automobile journal Mohawk transportation https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/d79357abd9af0c713c86905dc01872ae.jpg a394ddbc145b020c3179df5c8d9d25dd https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/1999f1e4d4727cb3d5d3850ca4c13a2c.m4a 8bcfb19901d5c16bdb6f23dc3e9f821a https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/04ed63833a36ec48e543b05c8aa9f853.pdf 46c66e25a06169de0c568a41c888a376 PDF Text Text Interview with Michael Arnush by Lynne Gelber & Sue Bender (recording tech), Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, July 17, 2025. LYNNE GELBER: This is LG. I'm here with Sue Bender. It's the 17th of July 2025, and we're here to interview Michael Arnush. And Michael, why don't you start by telling us a little bit about where you grew up and some of your childhood and what brought you to Skidmore. MICHAEL ARNUSH: Sure. Thanks a lot. Thank you, both of you, for having me here to do this. So I was born in New York City and spent half my childhood in Queens and Jackson Heights. And at the age of nine, my family was uprooted and we moved to Phoenix, Arizona, which was one heck of a cultural shock for all four of us. My father worked for Revlon, and Revlon decided to build a plant in Phoenix in the mid-sixties, so here was a New York family suddenly living in Phoenix. So I was there through high school. I focused largely on math and science in high school. I seemed to have some skill with that. So when I went to college, my plan was to be a pre-med, like so many students. And I did every pre-med class except the last one. And the last one was physical chemistry, the last one that was required for med school. I went the first dayLG: And where was this? MA: At Stanford University in Palo Alto, California. I went the first day of class, and it was the last day I went to class. I had no idea why I was there any longer. So Stanford was on the quarter system, so that was fall quarter of my junior year. LG: What year was that? MA: '75... Fall of '77. So at this point, I should have a major, I should be well into the major, and I suddenly have nothing. So winter quarter, I just took courses across the board. I took a course in women's studies, a course in religious studies. I took Intro to sociology, Intro to anthropology, Intro to physical anthropology. I was searching. And I had a friend who is Greek American, she's still a friend all these years later, and she suggested to me, why don't you take a course in Greek history? So I went to the first day of class. I knew no one in the classroom. It was a tiered classroom, like a small version of Davis or Emerson at Skidmore. LG: Do you remember who was teaching it? MA: Dr. Antony Raubitschek, who fled Nazi Germany in the 1930s, then went to the Institute of Advanced Study at Princeton, and then ended up at Stanford. Four foot eight tall, four foot eight wide, thick German accent, and I was hooked the first day, the first five minutes. A Page 1 of 17 �And then I scrambled. I scrambled to try to get the classics education I needed to go on to go to a graduate school. So I squeezed in enough in that junior and senior year, and in the summer in between, to get into graduate school. But I knew I needed to work more on my languages, on Greek and Latin. I had an opportunity to go to Greece the summer after my senior year. I'll never forget the moment. I got on a bus at the old airport down by the water on the outskirts of Athens. And as the bus descended from this high road into the city, I caught glimpses of the Parthenon in between people's arms that they were holding on the straps,.. hooked, just completely hooked. I spent a fifth year doing Greek and Latin. The classics department let me audit Greek and Latin classes. And then I went to graduate school at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. And when I went on the job market the first year, I was very ABD, all but dissertation. And I ended up with a one-year sabbatical replacement at Dickinson College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, which was a phenomenal experience. They taught me how to teach. The people in that department were just so kind to me. And then I went on the job market again, still ABD, and it came down to Skidmore and one other school. I interviewed with the dean of the faculty, Eric Weller, because Lynne, as you know, you were in the foreign language department, at that moment, classics had had a roller coaster relationship with the college and with the department. There had been a number of classicists before I was hired who, for one reason or another, had not succeeded. So I interviewed with Eric and then interviewed on campus, and I made the offer, and I chose it over Bowdoin. I thought that being a little closer to New York City might be a better option for us. And so I started Skidmore in the fall of '89 and retired a year ago. LG: So you came to Skidmore in '89, and what was your first position? What were you doing and what department were you in? MA: Okay. Well, I was hired as the director of classical studies, and I was still ABD, so I didn't have my dissertation in hand, which means that your department, Lynne, then called the Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures, was taking a gamble on me because I did not yet have my PhD. LG: I never took a gamble. MA: Well, thank you, Lynne. Some people certainly did. So I was hired to direct a program that had had a real life through the seventies and eighties from people like Helga Doblin, who taught Greek on the side when she was told by Sonya Karsen that she wasn't allowed to. To the Ecclesia, which was this gathering of non-classicists. Plus, if there was a classicist in the department, that person would be part of it. A Page 2 of 17 �I did lectures, got an NEH grant, fostered the study of antiquity. There was someone in the history department, Bill Brynteson, someone in art history, Harry Gaugh, Tom Lewis in English, Phil West in English, and a bunch of other people who believed that the delivery of a classics curriculum was of value, but the college had not made the kind of investment it needed to really build the program. And probably the hiring of David Porter in the second half of the eighties made a difference. He was my second to last interview when I came in the spring of '89. Scared the dickens out of me. I had never met a college president before. So I was hired as the director of a program. There was one other person who was teaching part-time. LG: Who was that? MA: Michael Moore. And the idea was to build a classics program from ground zero. I discovered, among other things, that the students who were in intermediate Latin knew no Latin. So I had to teach intermediate Latin students elementary Latin and cram it into as few weeks as possible. Within, oh, I don't know, maybe four years, there were three of us, including my wife, Leslie Mechem. I did not hire her. Phyllis Roth, the dean, hired her. Within, oh, 12 years there were, at one point there were five of us. There are now four classicists at Skidmore. LG: Who are they? MA: Currently, Ben Abbott is the ancient historian. Janelle Sadarananda is the archaeologist. Amy Oh is primarily a Latinist, but also a Hellenist. And Dan Curley, who is the department chair, focused on Ovid, but now works primarily on the reception of classics in film. So we started from nothing, and that was quite a challenge, not only to build the resources from the college, but to demonstrate the need for those resources, which means getting students into the classroom. The easy classes were things like Greek art, Roman art, Greek history, Roman history, Greek philosophy. That has been offered by someone in the philosophy department for longer than I've been at the college. Classical mythology, a big draw. But getting students into Greek and Latin, even with a language requirement, was a real challenge. LG: So when you first came, what courses did you teach? MA: I did not teach any ancient history. So my degree is actually in ancient history. I was trained in Greek and Roman history, but the history department hadLG: Is that Bill Brynteson? A Page 3 of 17 �MA: That was Bill Brynteson who was a Renaissance historian, but he had been teaching Greek and Roman history for years. He taught it as intellectual history, so I knew that was off limits. When Leslie was first hired, and she's an archeologist, Harry Gaugh was still teaching ancient art for the art history department, so that wasn't available to him either. So I focused primarily on just teaching Greek and Latin, just getting those languages off the ground and getting students into the sequence and holding onto them. LG: Was that because Helga also was retired or hadMA: Helga retired nine years before I arrived. So she retired in '80, and she was a great resource initially. I mean, she was very kind to me, but she was also hands-off. She was done. She was finished with the college. So yeah, when Bill Brynteson retired, the history department offered me the opportunity to teach, frankly, as many ancient history courses as I wanted. So I took over and revamped that sequence and turned it into a four-course sequence, two on Greek history, two on Roman history, and then a bunch of seminars over the years. LG: So this became a full-blown department at some point. MA: Less for Phyllis Roth. So I was recommended for tenure in, what would that be, ‘94? And Phyllis and I, at that point, would have lunches. So many people did once a semester, over Kendall-Jackson wine at Sperry's. And I had run afoul with Phyllis. I got to tell this story. This is like '90, and you'll remember this. You both will. This is, oh, probably '92. So David Porter is the president of the college. Phyllis Roth, English department, is the dean of the faculty, and they needed to cut the budget. And this is years after David had commissioned something from all the Commission on the Nineties, and they wanted to cut the budget. And the theory, and I never asked Phyllis or David to assert that this is true, the theory is that they were looking for the quickest way to cut as large a number of faculty as possible. And the language department had grown, and you know better than I, Lynne, from something like seven lines to 16 lines in a very short period after the faculty approved an intermediate competency language requirement. And so the notion is get rid of the requirement. You can get rid of a lot of faculty really quickly and close the budget. So John Anzalone, retired professor of French, who's a dear friendLG: Was he the chair at that point? MA: No, I don't think he was. You had been. Maybe John was chair at that point because he was chair when I stood for tenure. So we put together some data to demonstrate the value of a language requirement. And we knew that secretly David Porter, who knew more languages than I do, believed in the teaching and learning of languages. And for all I know, Phyllis did as well, but this was an expedient, I think, way for them to take care of the budget. So John and I put together a PowerPoint before there was a PowerPoint and a handout that was printed out and in color, which was given to every person who came to the A Page 4 of 17 �faculty meeting. It was like 200 copies. John gave the prologue. I ran the faculty through the data. John did the epilogue. I'll never forget. I'm doing the data and it's time to turn to page two. So I said to the assembled, "Please turn over to page two." You couldn't hear anything except the turning of a page. It was amazing. Faculty voted to retain the requirement. Phyllis was pissed. She called John and me into her office the following week. Now, I'm untenured. I think I'd gotten my PhD maybe a year or two before. I'm untenured, John is my chair. We staged a coup. We defeated the Dean and the President, and you don't do that lightly. She calls us into her office and reads us the riot act, and John is taking the brunt of her criticism. 20 minutes in, John announces, "I have to leave. I have to go pick up Becca from school." Now I'm sitting alone with the Dean of the Faculty. And for about the next, it seemed like hours, probably another 15, 20 minutes, I caught Phyllis's wrath. To her credit, in my 10th year, she gave us the department. Phyllis did not hold a grudge. She gave us an additional line, so we grew from two people to three people. LG: Why do you think that it became a separate department? MA: I think there were a lot of reasons. One, I think for some faculty they had to approve it, of course. For some faculty from their own home institutions when they were undergraduates or graduates, it was customary to have a classics or classical studies department. I think for the language department, I was an anomaly because I really was an historian in a language department. And that's not unusual for classics at some small institutions where the institution doesn't create a department, but the classicists are housed in a language department. But typically if they're historians, they're housed in the history department. It was unusual for Skidmore to have someone trained as an historian, but teaching the languages, because I was also trained in the languages, to be housed in the department. So I think there was no opposition, really, from the language department for us to go our separate way. There was nothing, I think, politically positive or negative about it in terms of the relationship of those of us in classics to the department. It didn't cost the college much more money. We continued to share an administrative assistant as the Classics Department does today, so there was really no additional cost. Phyllis granted the line before, yes, before classics became a department. Lynne, you tell me. You were there. LG: Well, I didn't see it quite in the same way, obviously, because I think so many of the survey courses really were in the languages or in the literature, part of it, history of, so it wasn't so strange to have somebody in history doing Latin or Greek. A Page 5 of 17 �MA: And an archaeologist, right? So it was not an unusual fit, but it felt like we were ready to have independence to be able to make our own decisions about especially personnel. LG: So what other major contributions do you think you made at Skidmore? MA: A menu of items. Let me first talk about just for classics. So I think Leslie and I were the first faculty to do a study abroad program with students during the summer for two weeks abroad. Before the current director of Off-Campus Study and Exchange, OCSE, which many just call Study Abroad, but it's OCSE, before the current director, Cori Filson, was in the position, there was someone else who was there, who was hired by John Ramsey, who was the Dean of Studies. And Jon used to oversee Study Abroad. And that first director, her name was Kara Sheldon, approved for us to take students to Greece for two weeks. And that became a standard. Leslie and I, over the course of however many years that was, took students four or five times in the summer. We took alums once in '98, including a couple of future board of trustee chairs, Sue Thomas and Janet Whitman. And we took faculty, not from Skidmore. We had a grant from something called the Associated Colleges of the South and took about 20 faculty to Greece as well. So that became a standard. Now the Classics Department takes students either to Rome, that's Dan Curley in classics and Greg Spinner in religious studies, or to Greece,- Amy Oh and Janelle Sadarananda, every other year, so it's now become a regular feature of the curriculum. And that's great. That's really wonderful. It's wonderful for the students to get the field experience. I stepped out of classics. I still kept a foot in the department. I was chair more than once. When we became a department, it was no longer program director. It was chair. The first thing I was asked to do was the Honors Forum. So John Ramsey, bless his soul. A quick story about John. My very first day on campus, there was a reception after the first day of orientation for new faculty, and it was out on the patio outside the old Scribner Library. John probably had come to the orientation, so we probably had recognized each other. He came over and introduced himself. We chatted for a few moments, and then he said, "Would you like to meet former President Joe Palamountain?" I said, "I'd be delighted." I had met David during the interview. He takes me over to the tree below the president's office outside of Palamountain, points to the plaque in the ground and says, "Joe's six feet under." I have told that to every president because almost none of them, including the current president, Marc Conner, knew that Joe's ashes are down there. Anne's are not. Anne's buried, I think, in the family plot, Connecticut, something like that. But yeah, there's Joe Palamountain. LG: Oh, dear. MA: So John Ramsey, as the Dean of Studies, and John, as you both will recall, was involved in so many different things in support of the administration and a close ally of Phyllis'. So A Page 6 of 17 �John reported to the faculty that retention of first-year students had become increasingly problematic and that they wanted retention to be someplace in the 90s, 93, 94, 95%, if possible, and it slipped to 89%. And his concern was that students were transferring after the first year. LG: Because? MA: The report was, and this is anecdotal, the report was that students did not feel they were sufficiently challenged. Now, I don't know what that means. The Skidmore faculty are rigorous, probably always have been, probably are more rigorous today than when you arrived or when I arrived. But that was at least what John reported to us. So he proposed to the faculty something called the Honors Forum. Sue, you were involved with it very early on. You were a great ally in that. The faculty approved it. The idea was to offer courses that any student could take, but they would be designated as Honors Forum courses, and the idea was that they would be a bit more rigorous. They would raise the bar. And the theory was that by raising the bar in certain courses seeded across the curriculum, a rising tide would lift all boats. That's John's phrase. And so after the faculty approved it, I think Phyllis asked me to be the director. LG: And that was what year? MA: '97, maybe. LG: Okay. MA: I think that's about right. And so the first challenge was to build an Honors Forum curriculum. And so I think the first thing I did with John was to build an Honors Forum council. So there was a collection of faculty, administrators and staff that included res life, included John's area, included other areas, and some faculty who eventually were elected through the governance system to build a program. And so that took a couple of years to get off the ground. And I'm thrilled that here we are, well, almost 30 years later, the program still exists. It's gone through a lot of changes. I think it's still trying to figure out what its role is at the college. LG: What did that consist of when you started? MA: Initially, we invited entering students to join the Honors Forum. That eventually shifted under subsequent directors to wait until students arrived on campus and give them a chance to apply. We did both initially, invite entering students and offer students the chance to apply after a semester. Initially, there was a course only for the entering class, Sue, Jon Ramsey and I team-taught that class. It had mixed results, but it was fun. It was a lot of fun. And then recruiting faculty to offer courses in their areas. So these were not courses that were designed necessarily to be different from the curriculum, but to be more rigorous. And so that meant, for me, reaching out to every department chair and program director, A Page 7 of 17 �making announcements on the floor of the faculty, inviting faculty to workshops. We had a little seed money from the Dean's office to build a curriculum. In the early stages, not only did we have the course for the entering students, but when we had a senior class, John and I team-taught a course open to the seniors in the Honors Forum. LG: Which was what? MA: It was to give them a chance to reflect on their academic experience. If they're doing a thesis or an art project or some other kind of senior lab project, to share that with the group. Again, it was a mixed bag. It was an experiment. We were looking to find the footing for how the Honors Forum would work. So that was the first. Want to hear about the next one? LG: Yep. MA: That was really hard. So now it's, I think it's maybe 2004. Chuck Joseph, professor of music, is the VPAA/DOF. Sue, I don't recall if you were associateSUE BENDER: VP? MA: I'm sorry, Vice President for Academic Affairs and Dean of the Faculty. And at that point, the position had been consolidated, yet again, into one person. Sue, were you still Associate Dean of the Faculty at this point in '04? SB: No. MA: Okay. So, as we all know, faculty had been delivering the liberal studies curriculum for a long, long time, developed in the mid-eighties. I think Terry Diggory was on the Committee on Educational Policy and Planning (CEPP) when it was first proposed. An LS, Liberal Studies, program consisted of LS 1, Liberal Studies 1, and then three groups of courses, LS 2, LS 3 and LS 4, each of which were themed. And faculty offered courses in LS 2, 3 or 4, or taught as part of the team-teaching effort in LS 1. Wildly successful probably for its first 10 to 15 years. Eventually, faculty started to drift away from LS 2, 3, and 4, so those were consolidated into LS 2. LS 1 continued, and I remember... Oh, I know. It was Sarah Goodwin, professor of English was Associate Dean, and she was struggling to get faculty to teach LS 1, this jewel of a class, teamtaught by 40-something faculty who met weekly to discuss the curriculum, to plan events, and then various faculty would come in and give lectures. You did that. I never taught in LS 1, but I did observe David Porter teaching LS 1, teaching prepared piano, which was a hoot. So the dean's office was saying, we can't deliver this course any longer. And even the new LS 2 was becoming increasingly difficult to deliver. So the faculty had, I don't know A Page 8 of 17 �how long it lasted, probably most of the year, a discussion about the curriculum and what to do. In the end, the faculty approved something called the first year experience, the FYE. It wasn't that controversial, but you can appreciate that those who taught in LS 1 for a long time, and still taught, especially the LS 1 course, were resentful that was being taken away. And so we knew, all of us, that it was going to be a landmine to get things off the ground. Chuck Joseph, VPAA/DOF, asked me if I would direct the program. And then Chris McGill, who at the time was working in the dean's office, would join me as the administrative arm, and I would do the faculty arm. And here the task was to recruit sufficient faculty to offer 45 to 48, we called them Scribner Seminars after Lucy, the founder, because everything is named Skidmore and nothing was named Scribner except the library, 45 to 48 seminars every fall, plus two in London. So the continuation of the London program, but now it would be two faculty, two Skidmore each teaching one Scribner seminar. And we needed to get 135 courses on the books pretty quickly because we needed to plan the next three years. Phil Glotzbach had just become president. Mellon Foundation likes to support new presidents, so the Mellon Foundation gave Phil $250,000, which he handed over to the FYE and gave us $100,000 out of his presidential discretionary funds. So we had $350,000. Chris and I were throwing money at the faculty offering workshops, summer, spring, winter, whenever we could, to help faculty develop courses. Then we had to vet the courses. Then they had to go to the curriculum committee. This was a haul. By the second year that I was director, and this would probably be around 2005 or so, which means 20 years ago, we offered the first slate of courses. We're still doing it. The courses were meant to be a couple of things. Number one, interdisciplinary at the heart of the Skidmore academic experience. Two, taught by faculty in their disciplines, but to teach whatever they wanted to give them the freedom with few constraints, except the course was supposed to be rigorous, include a good amount of writing, interdisciplinary, but we tried not to tell the faculty what to teach. We tried to kick themSB: So what kinds of courses came out of that? MA: Oh, my gosh, pick your favorite discipline. I can talk about my own classes. I remember I used to have to speak to, or I was asked to speak to prospective Skidmore students and accepted Skidmore students. And I would go through the litany of courses on the cosmos, to courses on poetry, to courses on immigration, to courses on history. Pick your favorite time period and the location. A Page 9 of 17 �Tillman Nechtman, in the history department, still does this. He teaches a Skidmore seminar on Captain Cook's voyages, and each student is assigned a role on Captain Cook's ship. I mean, it's so cool. And when the weather is good, he teaches it down by the pond, which always seems appropriate. So it was like that. It adds a spirit of fun and adventure. Some faculty taught it every three years, which was really the goal. We wanted, ideally, for the tenure line faculty to teach it, not to ask new faculty to teach it right away, to give them a couple of years to get their feet wet and figure themselves out as a member of their department and program and the faculty, but try to have a course on the books before they stand for tenure. We welcomed non-tenure track faculty as long as they were full-time. My goal had been a first year experience, and we failed in that regard. It really has been a first semester experience. When Muriel Poston, the Professor of Biology, came to Skidmore from outside and became the Dean of the Faculty under Chuck Joseph, who then became VPAA, and then Susan Kress English department replaced Chuck, I went to Muriel and asked for the resources to develop a spring experience for the students. John Anzalone and I team-taught one course, and that was the extent of it. We teamtaught a course on the Grateful Dead. We got away with teaching a course on the Grateful Dead, and then finished the course with a concert in Albany by the Grateful Dead. But Muriel said, we just don't have the money to even do a one-credit course for the spring. It would've cost about $50,000 a year. I think we could have found the money, but we didn't have the will. So it continues to this day. Faculty teach Scribner Seminars, and maybe it'll continue to last longer, I don't know. But it really is a first semester experience. LG: So what would you consider your biggest challenge in all the years that youMA: Well, something I haven't mentioned, and that was serving on committees. I served on the Committee on Educational Policy and Planning a couple of times, set up and chaired it a couple of times. That's always hard because it brings together the Dean of the Faculty and/or the Vice President for Academic Affairs, maybe in the same person, a bunch of elected faculty, some administrators trying to plan the future of the curricular experience of the college. Always a challenge. I always wanted to serve on CAPT, the Committee on Appointments, Promotions and Tenure. It went by CAPTS, with an S at the end, before I came to the college. LG: It was sabbaticals. MA: Oh, it was sabbaticals. Okay. It had to be approved by the faculty, a faculty of six elected in staggered terms. I knew it was a responsibility to serve on it. I just wanted to wait for the right moment, and it ended up coming towards the end of my time as a faculty member. So I was elected to CAPT. And in my first year, we had a couple of real serious challenges and some very difficult tenure cases, promotion cases. And as well, that was A Page 10 of 17 �the year that we, as a committee, in consultation with the faculty, broke the committee in two and created ATC, the Appointments and Tenure Committee, and separately the PC, the Promotions Committee. And so that happened my second year on what was CAPT, now ATC. And then I served one more year on ATC as its chair. It's the hardest work I ever did at the college. You're reading the scholarship, the teaching and the evaluation of your colleagues. You're reading amazing work. You read everything. If the colleague has written a book, you read the book. If the colleague has written 37 articles as a psychologist, you read 37 articles. You read every student evaluation. It's a lot of work. It's a serious commitment that the faculty take very seriously. I loved it. It was some of the hardest work I ever did. Really challenging. At the end of that, for a couple of reasons, I was looking at retirement. It was coming up pretty soon. Leslie was looking at retirement after one more year. I was going to stay two years past her time on the faculty, and I got an opportunity to join the Dean of Faculty's Office as an Associate Dean of the Faculty for student academic affairs. I said, yes, the first week of March of 2020. The second week of March, the country and the world shut down due to COVID. So one of the greatest challenges was the summer of 2020, working with Michael Orr, dean of the faculty and VPAA, Janet Casey, Associate Dean of the Faculty for Academic Affairs, and Pat Fehling, Associate Dean of the Faculty for Academic Affairs and Infrastructure, figuring out what to do. From the academic side, do we have a college? Will students come in the fall? Will the faculty teach in the fall? Will we be teaching outside, inside, remotely? All of us who were teaching in the spring of 2020 were given an extra week to learn Zoom. No one knew Zoom. So that first summer, that first year, working with, not just the dean's office, but the president's office, the registrar's office, the study abroad office, which had to bring every student home from abroad in the spring of 2020, academic advising, counseling center, health services, the whole gamut of the college working together to figure out how to manage this and how to keep the college afloat. And we did it. And I give tremendous credit to so many people. Great leadership from Michael Orr, DOF/EPAA, but heavy lifting by Pat and Janet and so many folks in Starbuck, so many folks in student affairs. And my three years in that job, I got a chance to work with people I never really had a chance to work with before. Everyone in Starbuck, so registrar's office, academic advising, study abroad, career services, the folks downstairs under Jamin Totino in supporting students in and outside the classroom. Working with a lot of folks in student affairs and res life, and that was a great experience. I got to see the other side. Many faculty might have a brief experience on a committee with colleagues in other parts of the college, but rarely get to work with them so intensely, and I got that opportunity, and that was great. LG: So would you mark that as among your fondest memories? A Page 11 of 17 �MA: Yeah, I would. I would say meeting John Ramsey and meeting Joe Palamountain my first day at the college. I would say the language requirement issues with Phyllis, that was a highlight. Phyllis's retirement was also a hoot. I don't know if you remember this, but we did a skit. Shame on us. Jon Ramsey in a wig played Phyllis, and I sat on his knee, and I was Jon Ramsey. That was a good one. Highlights, the holiday party, which used to fall in December. It was the last day, the last Friday of the semester, last Friday maybe before exams or maybe of exams. And I just remember the year I was recommended for tenure fell on that day as well, David Porter on the stage in his red and green Christmas vest. Those were great fun. I really enjoyed those. And I haven't talked about something else, but I can't not talk about it, and that's the classroom. I spent almost all of my 35 years, one way or another, in the classroom, department chair, program director, Honors Forum, FYE. And my last semesterLG: What FYE is? MA: First Year Experience, Honors Forum. And then my last year as an Associate Dean of the Faculty, Michael gave me room to teach one course in the spring. I taught a lot of classes. I love to teach. I still miss that part of the job a lot. I tried to be innovative. I think I built the first academic web page at the college. I know I taught the first team-taught online course that wasn't part of UWW. I taught with a colleague at Miami University. LG: University, well, that was UWW? MA: Right, UWW. But I didn't teach in that. I taught with this colleague I met at a conference. We team-taught a course on ancient Athens. She was in Ohio, and I was at Skidmore in the library. And we used rudimentary computer hookups and a speakerphone, which never worked, and it crashed almost every time. I brought a lot of role-playing into my classes, and I enjoyed that. I also liked the rigor of reading ancient Greek with students, reading ancient Latin with students, of teaching a seminar on the Medea by Euripides or a seminar on powerful women in the ancient world. I love doing that, and I miss that. LG: So what have you been doing since you retired, and what year was that that you retired due to changes at the college? SB: Michael, could you talk a little bit about some of the things that you were (changed)MA: Oh, changes at the college? Oh, sure. Across the board, the physical nature of the college. I, of course, wasn't here when the college moved from downtown Saratoga Springs to the current location on campus. But the addition of, first, the Dana wing that was urged by Phyllis Roth, Dean of the Faculty, and David Porter, college president. Which eventually led to the CIS, the Center for Integrated Sciences, dedicated in honor of Billie Tisch, a A Page 12 of 17 �long-standing supporter, she and her family of the college, a spectacular building for teaching and for scholarship and for research. That whole part of the college has changed. The building of Zankel, the music center with a glorious hall that holds over 600 people, fantastic acoustics and great places for students to work on their musical skills. Housing for students has changed so much. I think the college still needs more spaces and needs more classrooms, but housing has improved a lot. Now there's a new space for health and wellness, the Wagman Center. That's great. LG: How has the housing for students changed? MA: Tore down housing that used to be devoted to juniors and built apartments for them that are really first class. And then there's a second set of apartments in North Woods that are for seniors. I toured all of that when I became the first-year experience director. I wanted to see what the student experience was like because we had hoped to link some seminars to the housing experience, and we did that for a couple of years. I think the faculty are more rigorous, more diverse in what they offer, more diverse as to who they are and where they come from and what their backgrounds are. The student body is certainly much more diverse. I remember early on, David Porter was still president, Phyllis Roth was the dean, and a student I'd had, his name is Scott, was a senior, a Black male student. And it's a faculty meeting Friday afternoon, Gannett Auditorium, and Scott and a bunch of students, students of color, people of color walk into the room and ask if they can take the microphone. LG: And what year was this? Do you remember? MA: No, I don't. LG: Okay. MA: But it had to be before '98, when David stepped down. David graciously allowed Scott to interrupt the meeting, and Scott's comments were both a plea and an urging. He essentially said to the president, look around the room at the faculty. Almost everyone is white. You need to diversify the faculty. Now years later, the college has done a pretty good job of doing that. And the student body is much more diverse, both in terms of having people of color in the student body, international students as well, but also from more diverse socioeconomic backgrounds. I think at one point Skidmore was viewed by other institutions, people at other institutions, maybe people outside of the academy as a finishing school. It's no longer an institution like that at all. When I came, maybe it was in the top 50 of liberal arts colleges by the dubious rankings of things like US News and World Report. Now it's in the mid-thirties every year. Maybe it'll go higher. I'm not sure how important that is, but it’s certainly, parents do look at it. High school students looking at college do look at it. I think it's not insignificant. A Page 13 of 17 �Everyone wants to downplay it, but it's important. The college has risen in the estimation of others. LG: So what have you been doing since retirement? MA: So in 2017, there was a scholar by the name of el-Abbadi. I forget his first name at the moment. So el-Abbadi was an Egyptian scholar. His obituary appeared in The New York Times. He wrote what was, at the time, the definitive study of the ancient Library of Alexandria in Egypt, published by UNESCO, which I thought was an odd publisher for a scholarly study. And I read it with interest because the story went as follows. The Egyptian government decided to build a brand new library in the city of Alexandria, glass and steel, high-tech, not necessarily with books on the shelves, but to be a digital hub. el-Abbadi was old school, and believed in having books on the shelves. And so they had a parting of the ways, and so he was not involved ultimately in the planning of the library. LG: And this library was where? MA: In Alexandria, in Egypt. And when the grand opening was held, he was not invited, but they handed out copies of his book to everybody who came to the grand opening, including the president of Egypt. I thought there's a story there. I put it away. And then in my last spring in the dean's office, which would be, would that be '23, I guess spring of 2023, I went back to it thinking about what I'm going to do in retirement. And I thought, well, I'm going to tell his story. And I reread the obituary, and I remembered that he has a surviving daughter, a homeopathic physician in Germany, and a surviving son who is a professor of mathematics in California. I thought I can't write anything without their approval. That got me onto the Library of Alexandria, which got me onto the ancient philosopher, Hypatia, and I decided to write a novel. So for the last two years I've been working on a novel. Today is Thursday. On Monday, I met with the writer, courtesy of the summer Writers Institute with the help of Bob Boyers in the English department, Marc Woodworth in the English department, and Adam Braver, who is the co-director of the Writers Institute. They put me in touch with a writer who lives in Florida who's working on her second novel. I sent her my 300-page manuscript about a month or so ago. She read it with great care and gave me an hour and a half phenomenal feedback. So now I need to go back and make some changes. AndLG: And what are you going to call this? MA: Well, right now it's called the Tattered Satchel. We'll see if the title holds, but she seemed to think it works. It's a story of two women, Hypatia, this ancient philosopher, mathematician, teacher, the daughter of a philosopher, scholar, editor of texts whose A Page 14 of 17 �editions of the texts of Euclid and others survive to this day. She was murdered by a Christian mob in Alexandria in 415 CE. But the other half of the novel is about a liberal arts college professor, by the name of Margaret, who is going to be standing for tenure. So it's two very different stories and eventually their stories, not their lives, but their stories intersect. Margaret turns to Hypatia to help her get tenure, but she does so in a way that would be called devious, if nothing else, deceitful, unethical, and amoral. So that's what I'm working on. LG: It sounds fantastic. MA: It's been fun. I never thought I could write a novel. LG: Did you have to get an agent? MA: That's next. When I'm done with this version, I still want to show it to a couple of people, I gave it, for example, to Steve Stern who used to teach in the English department at Skidmore. Acclaimed novelist, I think has written 16 novels. He read it about a year and a half ago. He was enormously helpful in helping me think about... Because I'm no novelist. I'm an historian, so he really helped me think about the tools that you need to write a novel. I shared a reading with Sue and Leslie and some other friends. I've had a couple of other people read it. Leslie has read it a couple of times. I think it's better. I don't know that it rises to the level of something that ought to be published. I hope it will be. We'll find out. LG: Good luck. MA: Thank you. LG: Anything else we should cover? MA: Just one small thing. It's not small. It was significant. It was the morning of 9/11, and my office was in Ladd Hall, which is attached to the center of campus, the Student Union Case Center. And I was walking to the library, to library 203 where I was teaching a Latin class. That was the very beginning of the fall semester. And there used to be a TV downstairs in the spa, the cafeteria. And so the TV was on, and I saw a friend and colleague, Reg Lilly, in the philosophy department standing in front of the TV. Now I happen to know that Reg is a basketball fan and a Chicago Bulls fan, and I happened to know that that day Michael Jordan was announcing he was leaving Major League Baseball and coming back to basketball. I had a few minutes. I thought I'd go grab a cup of coffee, say hi to Reg, and go to class. A Page 15 of 17 �I saw the aftermath of the first plane hitting the World Trade Center. I went to my class, and I told the students what had happened. I asked them if they want to cancel class, and they said, no, please teach. And so we stayed together for, it was probably 80 minutes. And when I left the library, I ran to a bunch of librarians. They were hearing various rumors. They heard the State Department had been hit. They heard that the White House had been hit. We didn't know yet the full extent. At that point, the second tower had been hit, and I ran into Pat Oles back in Case Center. Pat, at the time, was the Dean of Students. I'll never forget this. He had a stack of paper printed out with the names of every student who had a parent or family member who worked in the World Trade Center. We lost no parent or family member. We did lose one alumnus whose name is commemorated on a plaque outside of a classroom in I think on the first floor of Bolton Hall. LG: And who was that, do you remember? MA: I forget his name, but he's there. But I remember the students and how they responded later in the day. So we went back to the department not knowing what to do. And one of the students said, let's go give blood. So a bunch of classics faculty and a bunch of our students who are majors who used to hang out and I think really wanted to be with somebody, we drove downtown. I forget exactly where it was, but it was in one of the buildings that used to be part of Skidmore. And we got in line and offered to give blood and they said, we're overwhelmed. We can't take anymore. But I just remember how the students responded. So I'll never forget that moment. However awful it was, the students' desire to contribute. It says something about our students. LG: Good. Anything else that you want to include? MA: No, that's it. Just, thank you. Thank you for doing this project. It's important, I think, for not just the retirees who get a chance to talk about their experience at a place like Skidmore College. But if anyone is listening, if anyone is reading the transcripts, and I hope they are, to learn something about the place where they work or worked. I wish I had had this. I've always wanted to write volume two of Mary Lynn's “Make No Small Plans”. LG: Good. MA: But my volume two was not going to be what Mary wrote. It was going to be the scandals of Skidmore. I just don't think I have the nerve at this point to do it. I don't know that any of these transcripts reveal any of the scandals. You would know better than I. But I think someone needs to write that and circulate it anonymously. LG: Okay. We'll wait for edition number two. MA: Okay, deal. Thank you. LG: Thank you, Michael. A Page 16 of 17 �MA: Thank you. SB: Thanks, Michael. LG: This has been wonderful. A Page 17 of 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michael Arnush Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 48:52 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Sue Bender Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Arnush Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 17, 2025 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Michael Arnush came to Skidmore in 1989 as Director of Classical Studies, after receiving his PhD in classics and ancient history from the University of Pennsylvania. He served many roles during his tenure at the College: he taught Greek and Latin languages and history; developed the first summer program abroad which included students, alums and Skidmore board members; built the Honors Forum; developed and directed the First Year Experience, and developed and taught in the Scribner Seminars Program. Michael served on several college committees and in 2020 became Associate Dean of the Faculty for Student Affairs. He retired in 2023. Since retirement he has been writing a novel, “The Tattered Satchel.” Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/3d2982fb385c3b5cbf80170b69a04b82.png d0fd003a43b661342ec371972c003688 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Paper Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Miles Herman Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 5/7/2021 Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. July 18, 1963 Abstract (& Historical Note) Natural language description of the map itself, providing a general summary of the map and noting significant features. This is the place to introduce keywords and proper names that might be of interest to researchers, but do not warrant a separate subject heading of their own. Inset maps should also be described here, with their full titles given. Whenever historical or explanatory information is available, it should be included here as well. This includes information about items or events that are larger than just the map itself; for example, information about cartographers, a description of the map's historical significance (for example, "This is the first printed map of Saratoga Springs"), notes on the laws leading to a map's creation, descriptions of changes in state or county lines, information about the organization that created the map, how often maps were updated, and information about the map's creation and publication. Many State Archives maps have historical information in the catalog record -- that should be captured in this field. Golf - Saratoga - Arnold Palmer - Fundraising - Saratoga Spa Golf Course - SPAC Archives - Health - Wellness - Gary Player Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource SPAC Fundraising Letter Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 18, 1963 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. The SPAC Archives Description An account of the resource A SPAC fundraising letter dated July 18, 1963, concerning the Palmer- Player match at the reopening of the Saratoga Spa Golf Course. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Newman E. Wait, Jr https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/e99f8b4aa980806d75bd91efec81fb8c.png 7daa29db3360f5d10b215172f2c4230c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Photograph Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 5/7/2021 Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. July 1897 Abstract (& Historical Note) Natural language description of the map itself, providing a general summary of the map and noting significant features. This is the place to introduce keywords and proper names that might be of interest to researchers, but do not warrant a separate subject heading of their own. Inset maps should also be described here, with their full titles given. Whenever historical or explanatory information is available, it should be included here as well. This includes information about items or events that are larger than just the map itself; for example, information about cartographers, a description of the map's historical significance (for example, "This is the first printed map of Saratoga Springs"), notes on the laws leading to a map's creation, descriptions of changes in state or county lines, information about the organization that created the map, how often maps were updated, and information about the map's creation and publication. Many State Archives maps have historical information in the catalog record -- that should be captured in this field. Bicycle - Brookside - Samuel Cooke - Health - Wellness URL https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/49332155-703E-47C4-8167-581914099293 Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Brookside Museum, Saratoga County Historical Society (Ballston Spa, N.Y.) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Samuel W. Cooke on a Bicycle Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 1897 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. The Brookside Museum Description An account of the resource This is a photograph of a young boy riding a bike in 1897 around Saratoga Springs. https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/4f046262aaf90f34e9fc004f313bb724.png 4cd6619bf11b74d074ca5f79d9d87afc https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/195ec1de2acc9611f67f3284f37399dc.pdf 75e715ac5e8b758ebd238983aded5999 PDF Text Text � https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/0fe87b5346cad42cf059011828c53619.pdf ac957063f94ca10fb397efb2ad35afef PDF Text Text ����� https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/72ec167d3131bb0e2a9b02925028fddb.pdf 538b202ea24a0b6940943fe9d907be4c PDF Text Text � https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/bb2eebc0aa338d8daa3b54de0b155a66.pdf 3c1434181ee1f9d45f25aa502388e67c PDF Text Text � https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/0ab66d862b89402ea06d86b18e35b284.pdf 337e8fe2fd2987ffc3166e08270b596f PDF Text Text � https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/29aa571e6cb3fa28a5ef0dda4119d027.pdf 4a6d01fb4bf1c1c94f593f7e992c6426 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adult and Senior Center of Saratoga Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data article Creator - Organization Company, government agency, or other organization responsible for creating the item (the publisher should not be listed again here unless the same organization had a role other than that of publisher in sponsoring or creating the map). Kipler's Magazine Theme For browsing purposes, we are borrowing and adapting themes from the Library of Congress's American Memory project. Civic Life URL Link to <a href="https://books.google.com/books?id=lQYEAAAAMBAJ&amp;lpg=PA34&amp;dq=kiplinger's%201951%20changing%20times%20for%20oldsters&amp;pg=PA31#v=onepage&amp;q=kiplinger's%201951%20changing%20times%20for%20oldsters&amp;f=false" title="Kipler's Magazine, July 1951" target="_blank">July 1951</a> issue of Kipler's Magazine. Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. J. Dym Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 19/05/2017 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource More Work for Old People Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 1951 1951 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Kipler's Magazine Description An account of the resource This article, More Work for Old People has as its tag line "they need hte jobs and hte jobs need them, so why not break down the barriers." In other words, it argues against age discrimination, and that men and women in their 1960s benefit from "purposeful activity" and need work for physical and psychological reasons. The article outlines supposed problems with hiring "old people" and answers to them. The document offers advice to jobhunters from 45-65 as well. Language A language of the resource english https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/8f70124767d172aa3e17c690b500df47.jpg bc04b252f635d2b92efea293f5de4f46 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/f6331293f1129a858107fdae8e9bd203.m4a 0cca97607c25e906806d1295487a4703 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/6482c638bef5b2281ec0f2094a24b280.pdf 50c34ea47498d565ca1efc2238ff5461 PDF Text Text Jonathan Zeidan ‘12 Interview Log June 6, 2017 00:00:00 Graduated in 2012 00:00:12 Double Majored in Business and Economics and Double Minored in Spanish and Honors 00:00:19 Involved in Student Government and Integrity Board 00:00:30 Lives in San Francisco, from Bay Area 00:00:41 Worked in for Kaiser Permanente and does internal consulting 00:01:07 Will get NBA in Fall at Northwester Kellogg School of Business 00:01:40 London Freshman at Skidmore, went recently traveling in Europe 00:02:02 Went to New Orleans with friends from Skidmore 00:03:00 Still involved with friends and network, core friends, friends I work with 00:03:20 Help other Skidmore alum with jobs 00:03:40 First time back at Skidmore 00:05:00 Student Government story, political discussions. Occupy Wall Street began, 00:05:40 For an Occupy Skidmore event, put on Throughbread costume 00:06:50 Started Thoroughthreads, an ironic humor clothing company with friends 00:07:12 Developed a business plan through major and worked with 5 local businesses 00:10:00 Terrence Blanchard spoke at Graduation 00:10:20 Blanchard was part of Freshman reading for Scribner Seminar 00:10:30 Spoke for Senior Class Gift at graduation 00:11:20 Intro to Business Class is memorable, MB107 with Professor D’abate 00:11:40 First time realized he was smart 00:12:20 Became an MB107 coach 00:12:51 Took a ballet class: Mind, Body & Spirit 00:15:03 Doesn’t miss small beds in dorms 00:15:50 Misses having friends that encourage you to do well and be well 00:16:30 Misses comradery in D-Hall (Dining Hall) 00:17:31 Notice physical changes on campus (ADA compliant walk way) 00:18:45 When a freshman, tried to absorb everything 00:20:00 Used stipend in London 00:21:15 Being Student Government President was meaningful as leader of peers 00:23:50 People come together when it “matters” in terms of political activism 00:24:30 Tensions regarding race relations 00:27:00 Students are transient � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kira Hastings '17 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jonathan Zeidan Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Rebecca Stern Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 26/06/2017 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jonathan Zeidan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 06, 2017 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (eng.) Business & Management SGA SGA President Student Leader https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/e117be41e17e8a6d5e38cdc3d5da0de4.jpg 01baab5a59c6a0dde8bce64de744d146 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/b2d23674ba8ba8fe60349204810c2168.m4a e3a73dd6e8216f0ecca8ec28c5601425 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/aad5143705f35bb29f45707859a67e1a.pdf 3d3f2244e7afcf4b97fd6f96b86cea02 PDF Text Text Millie Tan ‘77 Interview Log June 7, 2017 00:00:03 Class of 1977, from Jackson Heights, Queens, in New York City 00:00:12 Lives in Chapel Hill, North Carolina 00:00:23 Major in History and Minor in Secondary Education 00:00:40 An average week was a mix of classes, studying, and interactions with classmates of all classes 00:01:00 Lived in a co-ed dorm and remembers late night conversations 00:01:35 Remembers a long conversation on world hunger 00:03:50 First thought would be an English major until took a course with Tad Corroda who became mentor 00:02:50 Took courses in Philosophy and branched out in social sciences 00:06:00 Chinese-American parents didn’t read or write Chinese or English 00:06:40 Visited Skidmore, completely different than Queens 00:07:30 Insecure about inexperience to extracurricular that other students had 00:08:38 Skidmore allowed Millie to develop through professors and classmates 00:10:00 Weren’t many minorities, smattering of international students 00:13:00 Didn’t feel that there was much activism 00:14:04 Felt Skidmore was a bubble, everything was possible, little obstacles to make things happen 00:17:145 Social, interpersonal, building aspect had a long impact on Millie 00:18:40 Loves “Creative Thought Matters” 00:19:00 Strong believer in the liberal arts education 00:21:00 Regrets not studying abroad, thought wasn’t affordable 00:22:08 Feeling of serenity on campus 00:23:12 Worked in Dining Hall 00:25:20 At reunion, reconnecting with friends 00:30:50 Skidmore creates a community and hopes that continues   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rebecca Zosia Stern Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Millie Tan Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Rebecca Stern Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 26/06/2017 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Millie Tan '77 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 07, 2017 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 Language A language of the resource English (eng.) Alum Diversity History Jackson Heights North Carolina https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/0f713a5595e3524fa980ab7971c9a0b7.JPG f1da443df9f135e0065455d540c69ce8 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/1b86ec93708b28aa97b72d8384197b76.m4a d0c29a0ded43e3af1f458194782c69d1 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/9587c7a61a206eb2a2518905ccab5da5.pdf 1dfd677e652c09c424c59378704f0be6 PDF Text Text Interview with Teresa Waters '79 by Grace Heath '19: COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, June 1, 2019. GRACE HEATH [00:00:00]: Okay. But basically, we can just jump right in and you can tell me your name, class year, and where you're from before Skidmore. TERESA WATERS [00:00:08]: Okay. My name now is Terry, Teresa Waters. When I was here at Skidmore, was Teresa Sinclair. I go by Terry and I was in the class of ’79. GH [00:00:19]: Nice, so where were you from before you came to Skidmore? TW [00:00:24]: When I was here at school, my parents were in Guilford, Connecticut. GH [00:00:27]: Okay. TW [00:00:27]: But I live in Maine now. GH [00:00:28]: All right. GH [00:00:29]: So, what originally brought you to Skidmore? What, how did you become attracted to this program? TW [00:00:36]: Well, I knew I always wanted to be a nurse since I was a little girl, and I had looked at actually three colleges: Russell, Sage, Duke and Skidmore. And liked Duke, but it was too far away, and I knew I wouldn't get home too often; I didn't really like Russell Sage being in the city, and when I came to see Skidmore, I loved it, the size and the campus was beautiful. GH [00:01:01]: Yeah. TW [00:01:02]: Yeah. GH [00:01:03]: So, did, does anyone in your family have a background in the field of medicine or nursing? TW [00:01:08]: No. GH [00:01:09]: So, this was just something you decided you wanted to do? TW [00:01:11]: Yeah. GH [00:01:12]: I see, so what was, what was it like being in the program? Like what? What was your day to day schedule like, kind of situation? TW [00:01:22]: The way the nursing department was set up, freshman and senior year were here in Saratoga and then sophomore and junior year were in New York, so totally opposite daily living. GH [00:01:35]: Yeah. TW [00:01:35]: Freshman year was pretty tough. It was a lot of science, chemistry, which I was not real good in, but I passed, but so, a lot of studying. �GH [00:01:46]: Yeah. TW [00:01:46]: We had a lot of fun. That group of nurses pretty much melded pretty quickly because we were all in the same classes, the same labs, that kind of thing. Sophomore and junior year, we were divided into two semesters. So, I don't, I can't remember if we started clinical right away our sophomore year, I'm pretty sure we did. Mostly at NYU, which was right down the street from the dorm. Dorm was on East 38th Street. I think there were three floors in the dorm and we had to cook and clean. And that was, yeah, that was pretty crazy. But it was great. GH [00:02:24]: Yeah. TW [00:02:24]: It was great. And then we also had to go to school during the summer after sophomore year and after junior year. Then senior year came back here, which was really fun. GH [00:02:34]: Yeah. TW [00:02:34]: Loved it. GH [00:02:35]: Yeah, so kind of starting with your experience the first year at Skidmore, what kind of classes were you taking? Like, was it mainly for nursing, particularly, or was it a variety of things? TW [00:02:48]: No, it was pretty much for nursing, other than they had what was called a winter term, which was an elect, you could take any kind of course. But English, biology, chemistry, chemistry lab, micro, sociology, I think psychology, and then so, there were labs for microbiology, chemistry and biology, and then spring semester was organic chemistry. The lab for that, and then a continuation of biology. GH [00:03:31]: So, when you were at Skidmore, how many people were in your nursing program? And were you guys all housed together, even on campus here? TW [00:03:39]: No, everybody was pretty much separated. GH [00:03:43]: Okay. TW [00:03:43]: Yeah, so some, there was still the old campus then, it was called Moore Hall. I lived in the Tower. People were in different dorms. Everybody was in a dorm freshman year. What was the second part of your question? GH [00:03:58]: That it was just how many people were in your program? TW [00:04:00]: Yeah, I think we started out with maybe 50. It was pretty small. Yeah. Yeah. But like you said, because we took all the same classes together, we got to know each other really well. Yeah. GH [00:04:12]: So then moving into New York City portion, what was that transition like going from small kind of Saratoga to thrown into this big city experience? TW [00:04:24]: It was, it was a real eye opener. You know, some kids hadn't really been exposed to �New York much. I had, living in Connecticut, but never had lived there. The dorm was in a pretty, it was not a bad section of Manhattan. It was a couple blocks from the U.N. in, and right across the street was a big parking garage. So, it wasn't a bad neighborhood, but you learn pretty quickly where you could go and where you couldn't go. We had basic safety classes at first, you know, telling you what to do. And just at that time, New York City was not like it is today. Like Grand Central, Times Square, you just didn't go there. It was pretty bad. But you learned where you could go. And we used the NYU library a lot, which was just a couple blocks down on 1st Avenue. Yeah. It was a big transition, for sure. GH [00:05:22]: Yeah. So, what were the what was, like, the class schedule? Kind of like, like was it more classes or a lot of clinical work? TW [00:05:30]: You know, I was trying to think of that driving up here yesterday. I'm pretty sure the way we did it was like two days of classes, all classes which were in the dorm. The classrooms were downstairs on the first floor. And then I think the other days, we had clinical, and each class, there were obviously two classes down there, sophomore and junior. Each class was divided in half. So, you spent all your time with the half that you were in. GH [00:05:59]: Yeah. TW [00:06:00]: Yeah. GH [00:06:01]: So, what was that atmosphere kind of like then being with that one group then in this? TW [00:06:07]: Pretty cohesive. GH [00:06:08]: Yeah. TW [00:06:10]: We had a lot of, you know, a couple of pranksters for sure, and had a really good time. But it was a lot, it was a lot of studying. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. GH [00:06:20]: So, what were, what were the clinicals like? Like being, you know, you're probably, what, like 20 or so being in this professional war environment? TW [00:06:29]: It was, it was a real eye opener at first. NYU didn't have just run of the mill, like, for instance, pediatrics, it wasn't tonsillectomy and appendectomies, it was major things that were wrong with kids. So, it was a real eye opener to see some life and death type things and the way it worked, usually, at least sophomore year, you were assigned just one or two patients and you had to go the night before, look at their chart, read the chart, find out all their medications, and then you'd go home and study and find out, you know, what are the adverse reactions. All those sorts of things. So, there were usually, I think, seven or eight nursing students to one professor. Yeah. GH [00:07:20]: Yeah. TW [00:07:20]: Yeah. GH [00:07:21]: So, did you have what were your relationships like with your professors then? TW [00:07:26]: They were great. Always accessible if you needed them. Very professional, and �really helped you learn to set limits right away—what was acceptable, what wasn't. But very, very positive. Yeah. GH [00:07:45]: Um, so, I guess, just in general, like, what are your some of your just most memorable times in New York City? And just like any stories you have that you can remember, either clinical or even outside of your, the direct, the nursing work, you know. TW [00:08:01]: Like I said, you know, you really bonded with the people, especially that were on the floor that you lived with. Yeah, lots of fun in the summertime and in the in the early spring, we would go up to the roof of the building, which was called Tar Beach. And when I think of it now, I just kind of shake my head. But we had some great times on there, you know, just crazy. Crazy. Yeah, but I had to get tan, you know? GH [00:08:28]: Of course. No sunscreen, I imagine. TW [00:08:31]: Oh, no. Baby oil and iodine. GH [00:08:33]: Oh, my gosh. TW [00:08:34]: I know, I know. GH [00:08:35]: Oh, God. TW [00:08:36]: The other thing summers in the city were... I did not like that, just so hot, but you did it and you got through it. GH [00:08:43]: Yeah. TW [00:08:44]: Yeah. GH [00:08:45]: So, were you, for, based on, like, grade wise, like, did you have like written exams when you were doing, in New York City doing the clinical work and stuff? Okay. TW [00:08:55]: Just typical. Yeah, there were exams and all. If I remember right, a lot of quizzes and then yeah, I think we had exams, probably and I don't know, maybe every month or something. But yeah, it was pretty, pretty tough. GH [00:09:15]: Yeah. TW [00:09:15]: Yeah. GH [00:09:16]: And then. So, you're saying the classrooms were in the same building as your, where you lived. So, what was the housing situation like? Like how was that set up? TW [00:09:28]: It the, the building had, I think, four floors. The first floor were two or three classrooms that were divided with, you know, those accordions. GH [00:09:38]: Yeah. TW [00:09:38]: Yeah. Then the second floor was offices and there was a housemother who we �never saw, but we were told she had an apartment there. The door, the front door was always locked. You had to, I think you were buzzed in, if I remember right. But then the third and fourth floors were where we lived. So, there were, there were some singles in the back, but they were real small. Most people had doubles. There was one small living room with a kitchen, which I think about now and cringe; it was always filthy. Yeah, and then there was one common bathroom that had I think four showers—four or six showers. I know. For all these, yeah, and we had, we had one male in our class. Yeah. It was, I think the only, I don't know if there were males after that, but yeah, he was a great guy. Yeah, I can't remember his name, but he was, yeah. GH [00:10:38]: That must have been a pretty crazy experience living with that huge group of women. TW [00:10:43]: He wasn't on the high floor, but, yeah, I can only imagine. Yeah, but we had a, it was fun. It was a lot of fun. GH [00:10:50]: Yeah. So, then what was that, going, what was it like then going back to Skidmore after having this pretty independent, more serious experience in the city? TW [00:11:02]: Yeah, it was again, it was a pretty big transition. You know I think we all really grew up a lot in the city because we were independent and just seen these, some life and death kind of situations. I had a really good time senior year. I loved it. Yeah, too. And senior year we took a nursing theory course and nursing leadership. But other than that, you could take what you wanted. So, I took things that just, you know, American history just, it was great. Yeah. But it was definitely, it was different, you know, and we, we had all bonded so much, but we got back here and it was just like nothing. Most of us lived in, it wasn't Sussman, is it Sussman Village now? GH [00:11:48]: Yes. TW [00:11:49]: It was called Scribner Village. GH [00:11:51]: Oh, yes. TW [00:11:51]: Yeah, and most of us were in apartments down there. GH [00:11:54]: Yeah. TW [00:11:54]: Yeah. GH [00:11:55]: Nice, that's where I lived this past year. TW [00:11:57]: You did? GH [00:11:57]: Yeah. TW [00:11:58]: They look beautiful. GH [00:11:59]: They're so nice now. TW [00:12:01]: Are they really? �GH [00:12:01]: Yeah, way nicer than anything I'd probably actually be able to afford, but… TW [00:12:05]: Wow. GH [00:12:06]: Yeah, super nice, but, yeah, so how, or what area of nursing were you particularly interested in? Like pediatrics, like psychiatric. What kind of? TW [00:12:21]: When I got out of school? GH [00:12:22]: I guess in school, and then when you got out of school. TW [00:12:28]: I was interested in ER Nursing. GH [00:12:31]: Okay. TW [00:12:31]: Mostly. We really didn't have any exposure to that in school. Most of it was med surg and pediatrics and OB, but that was always an interest of mine. So, when I got out of school, I took a little bit of a different track than most people did. I went up to Maine. A lot of kids were going to grad school or, you know, to big university hospitals. I wanted to go up to Maine. I've spent summers there. GH [00:12:54]: Yeah. TW [00:12:55]: So, I went to a small little 32 bed hospital. GH [00:12:57]: Wow. TW [00:12:58]: Where you did things in Boothbay Harbor. Where you did pretty much everything. GH [00:13:03]: Yeah. TW [00:13:04]: Yeah. GH [00:13:04]: What did you, what was that experience like? Did you like it like? TW [00:13:09]: I loved it. It was again an adjustment at first. And I'll never forget, you know, small hospital, the head nurse who was a woman who was about my age now, I thought she was pretty old, but she took me aside and she said, 'you know, listen, I know you went to a four year school, don't think you, you know everything because you don't.' She said, 'the best advice I can give you is listen to what the nurse's aides tell you.'. GH [00:13:36]: Yeah. TW [00:13:37]: 'And don't, you know, come across as better than that.' And I'm like, 'why are you saying that to me?' And she said 'because we had a really bad experience with somebody who went to a four-year school and came in and…' And later I talked to her about that once I got to know her, and she said ‘no,’ she said, 'you know, the nurse's aides are your, your eyes and ears cause you can't be everywhere.' Because at night there would be two nurses aids and an NR and would be in charge for 30, 32 patients. GH [00:14:05]: Yeah. �TW [00:14:05]: So, it was, at first, I was shaking in my boots, but it turned out great. It was great. Yeah. GH [00:14:12]: So how do you think, how do you think Skidmore's program kind of prepared you for that experience, even though, I'm sure it is, like you're saying it was different than what other people were doing it. TW [00:14:24]: You had a lot of, a lot of critical thinking. You know, like I said, we didn't in, in the nursing program we didn't have your typical appendectomies, tonsillectomy. It was kids with brain tumors, glioblastomas, all kinds of pretty serious things. But you knew how to prioritize. So at first, I think I was at a little bit of a disadvantage when I went to St Andrew's in Boothbay, my first job, but after you got to know just the basics which, which took, you know, a month or so. GH [00:14:55]: Yeah. TW [00:14:56]: The routine type thing, way ahead of the curve. Yeah. Yeah. GH [00:15:01]: So, then what was your, what was your next step after you were at that hospital? How long were you working at that hospital? TW [00:15:08]: I was at St Andrew's a total of three years. GH [00:15:11]: Okay. TW [00:15:12]: With a break in between, because my mom passed away in Connecticut. So, I went back to Connecticut because I had a younger sister. I was there for about eight months. But then I did go back to St Andrew's in Boothbay, so a total of three years there. And then I went to New Hampshire, to Weaks hospital in Lancaster. GH [00:15:30]: Okay. TW [00:15:31]: And did, it was called in-service education, which was in charge of nursing education, some administration, and then I moved up to the, they called it nursing service coordinator, which was in charge of the nursing department. So, it was administrative. GH [00:15:51]: Yeah. TW [00:15:52]: And I didn't, I wasn't crazy about that. I was there for a total of four years and I said, ‘eh.’ Yeah, I learned a lot in administration, but I'm more of a hands-on. Yeah. GH [00:16:03]: So, then did you do hands-on after that? TW [00:16:06]: From there I moved to Portland, Maine, and I did. I worked in a high-risk OB office. GH [00:16:13]: Oh, okay. TW [00:16:13]: Yeah. And at that point in time, I got involved with flight nursing when the doctor was gone because he would go away for a month at a time to different seminars and things. GH [00:16:25]: Yeah. �TW [00:16:26]: So, I did high-risk flight nursing, transporting women from northern Maine down either to Boston or Portland. GH [00:16:33]: Oh, okay. TW [00:16:33]: Yeah. GH [00:16:34]: Wow. That's really interesting. TW [00:16:35]: It was, it was really neat. I love doing it. Yeah. GH [00:16:38]: Was that like, how is like is a very stressful like. Yeah, just what was that like? TW [00:16:46]: It is pretty stressful because in northern Maine, a lot of these women would be in early labor or pre-term labor, but there were no facilities in northern Maine to handle a premature baby. So, the idea was to ship them down to either Portland or Boston. So, the moms were really nervous and, you know, trying to get them calmed down and just say, 'hey, you know, we'll get you there as soon as we can. What's the worst that can happen?' You don't want to go through… Look, if you, if you have to start pushing and the baby's born, this is what we're going to do.' Never happened. Pretty close, but didn't happen. GH [00:17:23]: Wow. Yeah. That's so cool. TW [00:17:25]: Yeah. Yeah. GH [00:17:26]: So how long did you do that then? TW [00:17:28]: I did that. That was a per diem job, you know, kind of augmenting my regular job. I did that for about four years. Yeah. And I learned a lot. It was, it was great. It really was. GH [00:17:40]: Yeah. How long were you. So, did you move after that or…? TW [00:17:44]: So, I stayed in Portland and then from there I switched jobs from the OB office to Southern Maine Medical Center, where I was responsible for social workers and discharge planners. Did that for about seven years, and then, sounds like I was a nurse forever. Yeah. From there, I, my, I got married, and my husband was, is a pilot, and he was up in the Rockland, Maine area. So, I got a job with MBNA, which was a credit card company. This was totally out of the, my area doing occupational health nursing. Which was great. GH [00:18:25]: Yeah. TW [00:18:26]: Yeah, I did that for eight years until MBNA was bought by Bank of America and they let all the nurses go. They what we did, we managed workers comp and short-term disability and then did a lot of ergonomic assessments, things like that. And now I'm in a urology office. GH [00:18:46]: Yeah. It's funny how the times change. TW [00:18:47]: Yes they do. GH [00:18:48]: You never know where you're gonna end up, I guess. TW [00:18:50]: It's true. It's true. �GH [00:18:51]: Okay, going back to Skidmore, one thing we've been asking all the nurses that my classmates and I have been very interested in is, what was your reaction, I guess, to hearing about the closing of the program? TW [00:19:07]: I was, I couldn't believe it. Because I kind of lost touch with it, most people, you know, a couple friends I kept in touch with. But I think I got a letter that the nursing department was closing. I was just like, 'Oh, my gosh, that's so sad.' Yeah, so sad. GH [00:19:28]: Yeah. TW [00:19:30]: Yeah. It just seems so sudden to me. GH [00:19:33]: What like, I know some people like wrote letters and stuff, like were, I guess like how did you react to it. Like what was it besides like the saddening? Like were, did you feel like you had to do something or more was it like it happened? And... TW [00:19:51]: Well, I reached out to a woman, who I found out after the fact, Lorraine Amorosi, who graduated in a year ahead of us, but she was in the same clinical group as we were. Apparently, she had been in touch with administration at the college, so she knew more than I knew. GH [00:20:08]: Yeah. TW [00:20:09]: And I said, ‘Was there anything we can do?’ And she said 'It's pretty much a done deal. It's done.' Yeah. Which was sad. GH [00:20:17]: Yeah. TW [00:20:18]: Yeah. I mean I understand the financial part of it which it was my understanding that was the reason, just the cost of keeping the dorm and that sort of thing. GH [00:20:26]: Yeah. TW [00:20:27]: But it was unfortunate because Skidmore Nursing had a really good reputation and... GH [00:20:31]: Yeah, definitely. TW [00:20:32]: Yeah. GH [00:20:34]: And I guess just one last question… Just looking back on your experience, like how do you, how do you look back on it now? Like how do you think about your time at Skidmore? TW [00:20:47]: Oh, with real fond memories. You know, just driving up here yesterday, it's like, wow, 40 years. You can't believe it. You know it, my regret is, oh, you wish you could keep in touch with everybody, but life gets busy and, you know, people move on. GH [00:21:03]: Yeah. TW [00:21:04]: But I was back for the 30th Reunion, and it's like you reconnect where you left off. But I have great memories. Just, yeah, the best, I think, you know, all the professors were wonderful and it was, it was good. It was a really good time. �GH [00:21:19]: Yeah. TW [00:21:20]: Yeah. GH [00:21:21]: Awesome. Well, I think I can stop recording now. � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Grace Heath '19 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Teresa Waters '79 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 21:24 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Jesse O'Connell Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Teresa Waters '79 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 1, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio Interview Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. April 6, 2023 Nursing https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/30023c8d5f576bb756ff50af6ecc1e1e.JPG e77bd25b769f7786bcfa9b785f0bab9d https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/e450cd2aa06188cc48f0d0e6eb9e0533.mp3 697aa0083f629405834ab0dc0d2dfea7 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/49ecc97f2669a34284c661e45ab3c5bc.pdf 5a863ce456df35ad6bca5f39f124937f https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/14be3376b4e6b2db8945fd051fd753d8.pdf 758770f681ae6e2216f8359064a04b16 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Eileen McAdam, Sound and Story Project of the Hudson Valley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mimi Ciancio Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY, 12866 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 58:07 minutes Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit December 13, 2018 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mimi Ciancio Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 16, 2015 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Abstract A summary of the resource. Interview with Mimi Ciancio by Eileen McAdam, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, June 16, 2015. Date Accepted Date of acceptance of the resource. Examples of resources to which a Date Accepted may be relevant are a thesis (accepted by a university department) or an article (accepted by a journal). December 9, 2015 Date Copyrighted Date of copyright. December 9, 2015 Date Submitted Date of submission of the resource. 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She later became one of the creators of Skidmore’s Summer Opportunity Program and served as a valued advisor and mentor to many students who attended Skidmore through that program. admissions Civil Rights coeducation David Porter Diversity Faculty Wives Feminism Increasing Applicant Pool Opportunity Program Palamountain Summer OP Program The Surrey Town-Gown Relations https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/8ee987402bcaa5bbbe79339d6dfcee3b.JPG c8cab190a6abb37c024af5d368ea4045 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/1891491c6d584cd7bb2892fc2976516b.mp3 212d9066d5afadf998afdef59ef7374c https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/73284472273c2e5cfeaf854db2052935.pdf 17251ead22547b4f6e860ea3133c722a https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/74416900e412ccd6f956ec30547f527a.pdf aa6c26fe5799911cae5e9e65c2bf4e45 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Eileen McAdam Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eric Weller Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:11:49 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eric Weller Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 16, 2015 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Dym, Jordana; McAdam, Eileen; Stern, Rebecca, '16 Description An account of the resource Eric Weller joined the Philosophy Faculty at Skidmore in 1963.  He became Dean of the Faculty in 1975, a post that he retained until 1990.  Despite Weller’s substantial administrative responsibilities, teaching philosophy remained a central commitment throughout his years at Skidmore. In this interview he describes the transition to Joseph Palamountain’s Presidency from the Wilson years, the College’s move to coeducation, curricular changes of the 70’s and 80’s, and the challenges of being Dean of Faculty.  Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History 4-1-4 Academic Calendar Business Department Faculty Gender Equity Interdisciplinary Collaboration Liberal Studies Palamountain Sociology Department Summer Program Development Tenure Val Wilson https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/df8a91d906626bbb1cdeb4815d337f6d.JPG 03b6821b58b269c174976c82d37cac09 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/66efc2bc0bfa3b59a7f7e5c033ff9e40.mp3 ca8001dcb15f3637e5bb7c023977a5b9 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/940e8ab63875fafa1683cf774b46c282.pdf a9980144472afb6cbf6752e94871a4d5 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/e7399152e2d39cb730ab4106b424d39a.pdf d97760f0845d824965cb1cc1a91c9880 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Eileen McAdam, Sound and Story Project of the Hudson Valley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ralph Ciancio Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY, 12866 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 59:31.03 Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 16/6/2015 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ralph Ciancio Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 16, 2015 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Ralph Ciancio was a member of Skidmore’s English faculty 1965-2000 and served as department chair, in addition to his service on numerous important all-college committees. In this interview he talks about challenges and changes in the English department, difficulties faced during Palamountain’s presidency, and the gradual process of developing the Liberal Studies Program - including its influence on enhancing interdisciplinary teaching across the College. 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For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Eileen McAdam, Sound and Story Project of the Hudson Valley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Vasantha Narasimhan Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY, 12866 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:01:05 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Vasantha Narasimhan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 16, 2015 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Vasantha Narasimhan joined the Skidmore faculty in 1980 to offer courses in organic and biochemical chemistry.  She introduced the importance of hands-on undergraduate research and began Skidmore students’ participation in the regional American Chemical Society undergraduate research presentations.  She chaired the Pre-Medical Committee from 1980 - 2006.  In this interview she discusses how, during the presidency of David Porter, there was encouragement of science and the interdisciplinary nature of the sciences.  The tenure of President Phil Glotzbach brought increased support for start-up funds to help bring talented new research faculty to Skidmore and add more advanced courses in the sciences like the polymer chemistry course.  She chaired the Chemistry/Physics Department from 2002-until her retirement in 2006.  Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Growth in Science Interdisciplinary Collaboration Liberal Studies Palamountain Undergraduate Science Research https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/a44cad26fc0b43a511b3c1e76f255b2e.JPG 011c962e77b5e33f4bba2b5dd4fcec98 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Publisher Publisher of the item, or of the book or atlas in which it appears. Scope Magazine Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Compassionate Hands Presentation Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 1st, 2019 Nursing public history https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/dc445f212bee424fa01bff16079a3dc5.JPG 7a0ed74759e2d0f337357378abd8ed5c Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. 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For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Pan, Yiyun (Evian), '17 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Anna Zhu Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. J. 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Title A name given to the resource Anna Zhu Photographs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 2015 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pan, Yiyun (Evian), '17 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/26f28ffd9befe2e7a105e861a77777d7.jpg 55709a73f18e10f270178ba307ad3ed9 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/430d40f71ff75d75af7aab8fa6e776dd.mp3 d57b80b2a63dbf3ca0e903a577ce3ced https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/008b5419a67f2416a0004c8d505ca4cf.pdf affd8d6d1608c36e3dae2af0ba61a64c PDF Text Text Interviewee: Tim Brown Years at Skidmore: 26 (1980-2006) Interviewer: Lynne Gelber Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: June 22, 2023 00:00:00 Header 00:00:33 Born/raised in Keene, NH; undergraduate in math and played basketball, baseball and soccer at Keene Teachers College; then taught math and coached at Keene High School. Then attained Masters in Physical Ed and PhD in Biomechanics at Indiana U. Taught Biomechanics and Research Methods in a graduation program at U of Delaware. 00:01:47 While at Delaware, learned of opening for Athletic Director and Chairman of Physical Education and Dance; after connecting with Skidmore’s Nancy Davis at a convention, accepted offer. Was also in charge of the Riding Program. 00:03:47 Bev Becker went on sabbatical but left great notes. 00:04:15 Job responsibility: to develop an intercollegiate athletic program. 00:04:22 Skidmore had gone co-ed in early 1970s, but by 1980 Skidmore still had mostly club teams, with only a few varsity teams in women’s sports. 00:06:07 Louise Wise, Admissions Director, found “men were interested in a strong intermural program and intercollegiate opportunity. The women were interested in health and fitness.” 00:06:45 In 1980 Skidmore had no space for it; had some equipment in a corner of a basketball court. Hesitant to accept job because of this, but Palamountain confident about fund raising for it, so Brown accepted. First year at Skidmore involved traveling and designing the center. 00:07:38 Wanted space for different activity areas including a pool, gyms, racquetball courts, weights/resistance, exercise & stretching area. 00:08:12 Polo was expensive. Coach was great, but we didn’t have the $ or facility, so reduced it to a club program. It needed to be endowed. Downhill skiing also reduced to a club sport. 00:10:00 Brown’s “golf pro” reputation derived from research for National Golf Foundation. 00:10:48 “But really the time and energy went into developing all … the programs.” 00:11:02 Changes during tenure involved building the sports center and its 1990s addition, plus development of faculty and staff. 00:11:45 Important to hire people who could coach varsity level and teach academic level. (Eg. Jeff Segrave. Paul Arciero, Denise Smith, and new Athletic Director Gail Cummings-Danson.) 00:13:02 Challenges: budgets. Renting space for hockey, equipment for various sports 00:13:45 Many coaches then were part-time; Skidmore rented vans for travel — hard decisions to make. 00:14:40 When started in 1980, Skidmore had 4 varsity teams: women’s tennis, women’s field hockey, women’s basketball and women’s lacrosse. 00:15:00 Developed varsity schedule for other sports by joining associations. �00:16:02 Became competitive at national level, winning some national championships. 00:16:10 Championships weren’t the goal, though. “I wanted a very good experience for a student athlete,” rather than an “athletic student.” Goal: a higher ratio of students participating. 00:17:50 Skidmore doesn’t give athletic scholarships, so students come for academic priority. 00:18:14 We do recruit, sending letters to prospects, watching them play, interviewing, developing rapport and assessing level of respect. More time and energy, but “healthier.” 00:20:22 A highlight: developing the Tim Brown Scholar Athlete Award with John Ramsey. 00:21:20 Another: watching people grow, staying in touch. Some outstanding faculty/staff: Paul Arciero, Jeff Segrave. 00:21:54 Many outstanding students. 00:22:20 Another highlight: when Robert Spellman (student) asked me to read at his wedding. 00:23:08 Students went into careers that include professional golf, business, sales, finance. 00:24:22 Vision of role of athletics in a liberal arts institution: opportunity to compete against self and others, and finding ways to get and keep in shape, make athletics part of regular routine. 00:26:33 New facility at Skidmore will provide enough space so no need to close parts for a team’s use, or no need to wait for equipment; can better fit student and faculty schedules. 00:27:50 Retired in 2006. “I decided … I had to have a plan.” Plan included volunteering to run fund raising golf tournaments, help with Skidmore Hall of Fame, volunteering as a rules official for golf tournaments and youth programs in Florida. 00:28:50 Tasks when volunteering as a rules official: like an umpire, helping the kids know their choices and guiding them through the decision. 00:30:35 Through 26 years at Skidmore, received some job offers, but “Carol and I thought, ‘How can you leave home?’ … Skidmore became home.” 00:31:15 Connected with other Skidmore chairs through retreats & playing squash, golf, tennis. 00:32:03 Also played and connected with some Saratoga Springs people - helped with support. 00:32:24 Decided that no other offers were greener — “This was home. It still is.” 00:33:10 Had many bosses through the years, “Phyllis was in a class of her own.” “She always seemed to be able to work out solutions to the most difficult problems. She was just a brilliant, brilliant woman.” 00:35:63 “And then it influences your decisions. You start looking in a broader way of solving problems, of coming up with solutions.” 00:36:18 END � https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/1fceeb2d37efd2d0dacf7503963f23a5.pdf affaa594e1c6e3ffa04d61649e277102 PDF Text Text Interview with Tim Brown by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, NY, June 22, 2023. LYNNE GELBER: This is Lynne Gelber. It is June 22nd, 2023 and I’m here with Sue Bender to interview Tim Brown. And welcome Tim. TIM BROWN: Thank you. LG: It’s really nice to see you back north. TB: [laughs] Yes. LG: Tim, let’s start out by having you tell us something about you - growing up, where you grew up, and how you ended up coming to Skidmore. TB: Perfect. I was born and raised in Keene, New Hampshire. I went to high school there. Went to college. I wanted to be a teacher, I knew that from when I was younger, in junior high school/high school, so I went to Keene Teachers College, which is now State — Keene State College. And wanted to be a teacher-coach, as I said, so I was a math major; I played basketball, baseball and soccer at Keene State. I’m in their Hall of Fame for basketball and baseball. From Keene, I went right from Keene State to Keene High School and I coached football, basketball and baseball and taught Math there. I was a math major in undergrad. And some jobs came up. I wanted to coach as well as teach, and jobs came up and I didn’t have my masters and I needed a degree in Physical Education at a lot of the colleges and universities to be able to coach at their level, so I went to Indiana University, got my Masters and Doctorate in, well Physical Education Masters, Biomechanics Doctoral Degree. And from there went on to University of Delaware and taught in a graduate program, Biomechanics and Research Methods. And my secretary and boss, Dave Nelson, saw the job at Skidmore opened up, as Athletic Director and Chairman of Physical Education and Dance; they thought it was perfect for me. So, I was thinking about it and I sent a letter off to Skidmore. And I knew of Skidmore because so many of the, our students at Keene High School went to Skidmore �College, and they were all very bright, intelligent, wonderful people, so I thought, “What a great place to be!” Interviewed with Eric Weller, Dave Marcell and Joe Palamountain. And Bev Becker, as well. And it was a great interview. LG: And Bev was the chair? TB: Bev was chair at the time, correct. And she was looking for a sabbatical, and she went on down to Duke, and did a wonderful, had a wonderful experience down at Duke. LG: What year was that? Do you know? TB: It was 1979 when I interviewed, I came in ’80. Actually, one of the big turning points was at the Eastern District Convention for Health, Physical Education, Recreation and Dance. Nancy Davis was there and she introduced herself; I didn’t know who Nancy was, didn’t know she was there. And she said, “Would you like to have breakfast some morning?” And I said, “Sure.” So we met at 7 o’clock the next morning and at about 10:30 when they threw us out of the cafeteria where the convention was, she’d convinced me to make a trip up to Skidmore. And one of my really good friends, who was Physical Education Director at Geneseo, Myrt Merritt, was very good friends with Nancy. And the connection was made, and … as you all know, once you come to Skidmore, it sells itself. It was just tremendous. So, I took the job and never looked back. LG: Good! So, you were hired to teach or to coach? TB: I was hired as Chairman of the Department and to develop an intercollegiate athletic program. I was Chairman of Physical Education and Dance and in charge of the Riding Program as well. LG: Is that the point at which Bev had just retired? TB: No, she still stayed on. Matter of fact, she was a big help; [laughs] she left me a lot of great �notes! I was supposed to start in September but I came up in June and she had had to leave and there was still one person to be hired and so I started in June instead of September. She came back the next year and taught in the department for a number, a few years after that. But again, the responsibility that I had was, ah, was to develop an intercollegiate athletic program. I guess there were a number of schools that had gone co-ed at the same time, in the early ’70s, and Skidmore evidently chose not to make any push — push or move — to attract men. Joe Palamountain said, “Now we have the opportunity for men to get an education at Skidmore College.” And they found out after that, Louise Wise did a study, a survey, of the kids … LG: And Louise Wise was, at the time was? TB: Director of Admissions, yes. And a matter of fact, she even talked me into making a few trips to Deerfield and Mount Hermon and Choate and so on to try to recruit students — not specifically men, but uhh, we … so the job was to [clears throat], excuse me, to try to develop a program. A lot of interest from the kids, but really no commitment to the program. So, when I came in fall of ’80, we had like twenty-something club teams and no varsity teams. I shouldn’t say no varsity teams because Jeff Segrave’s women’s tennis team played a strong varsity schedule, Jane Misurelli’s field hockey and women’s lacrosse programs had a strong program, and the women’s intercollegiate women’s basketball had a, played a varsity schedule. But in reality, none of the men’s programs really played a varsity schedule. LG: Was that because there weren’t enough men? TB: Not enough men, not enough commitment from the men students. They wanted to play but they didn’t want to make the commitment that it took to be, you know, a commitment to excellence. �LG: And was this at a time when athletics were less important to students in general? TB: Well, at Skidmore that’s the case, but not overall. The survey that Louise Wise did, found out that the thing that was lacking in their four year experience — now there’ve been four years of kids going through Skidmore, graduates that she had to survey, and she found out that, number one, the men were interested in a strong intermural program and intercollegiate opportunity. The women were interested in health and fitness. They wanted an exercise center, they wanted space to be able to work out, and they didn’t have either, so that’s when, they gave the information to Joe Palamountain and Joe Palamountain said, “Well we need to build a sports center.” And that was part of it. Now when I was offered the job, I was reluctant to take it because there was no space at all for … for activity. There was a universal gym, fitness gym, in — IN the basketball court in the corner, which was extremely dangerous when you are playing a basketball game or intermurals. And I was reluctant about it and then Eric Weller called me up and said that, you know the rule, policy at Skidmore at the time was you had to, to build something you had to have 50% in hand and 50% in sight to build a building. And Joe Palamountain said they had about 25 or 30%, and when I was balking a little bit Eric Weller called up and said, “Joe Palamountain said to call and tell you that his vision is outstanding.” I said, “What does that mean?” He says, “It means he has 25% committed but his vision, he can see it coming, so we’re going to go with the project.” So, the first year here we spent traveling around and designing the sports center. LG: And what did you look for in the sports building? TB: Uh, activity areas. Wanted to have a pool, gyms, some racquetball spaces, racquetball and squash, because that was a big sport at the … at the liberal arts colleges in the northeast. And, you know, an exercise area where you have, uh, do stretching, flexing, and weight resistance activity. LG: What was the link to polo at the time? �TB: At the time the polo was through a student and he was pushing it hard and we had it in the stables but it was, it was extremely costly. I mean the polo program as a club was costing us as much as the rest of the club sports and varsity programs, and we, we didn’t have a full-time coach, he was part-time, he lived a ways away. LG: Who was that, do you know? TB: Paul Kant. And he was a great guy, did a really wonderful job with the program, but it just became too costly, so we made a choice … uh, I’m not really positive when this was, but it was about the late, the late ’80s, where we evaluated every program, including the programs that we knew were very successful like the women’s tennis and the field hockey and lacrosse, and just decided that, number one, polo was too expensive, and we didn’t have a facility, so we were going to reduce it to a club sport. We had skiing — we only had downhill, we didn’t have cross country, so we couldn’t get into the bigger meets, so we reduced that to a club sport, after making some of the others varsity, at that time, about ’85 or ’86. So, it was a hard, difficult decision and, Dave Long was director of, um, he was in charge of fund raising and many, many a meeting in his office with people very interested in polo, and the bottom line is that nobody was willing to write the check that would support the program. We really needed to endow it. We could not run it year to year on, with it in the budget. LG: Everybody at Skidmore knew you as “the golf pro.” TB: laughs] Yeah. LG: How did that happen? How did that come about? TB: Well, my background in golf was really through research and pedagogy, because I did some research for the National Golf Foundation on equipment and swing analysis, teaching methods, and I would go to their … and lecture, and it was in my resume; my background �was really in baseball. I expected to come and maybe start a baseball program, but two students, Al Antonez and Steve Yale, saw me the first week I was here and explained why it was important that we add a golf team that wasn’t just a club. So, I went to some National Golf Foundation clinics and went to PGA schools in the summers, uh developed, you know, a program that, as you say, I got to be known as the golf coach rather than the Athletic Director, but really the time and energy went into developing all, all the programs. LG: So, in the course of your tenure at Skidmore, there’ve been a lot of changes in the program. What were the highlights for you? What kinds of changes did you see? TB: Well, the building of the sports center was huge. That was just unbelievable. And then the addition that we did in the early ‘90s — mid-90s, that allowed us to expand our intermural program and our weight room, those were huge. Uh, I think the development of some of our faculty and staff was probably the biggest thing. I mean I think of some of the people that we hired, uh, starting … you know Jeff Segrave was already here but he’s a huge asset in everything that we did, in some of our hires, because we had to hire a person that could coach at the varsity level but also teach at the academic level that Skidmore was, had a reputation for. So, it was difficult to find the right people, but we were able to. I mean I think of Paul Arciero right off. I mean his great expertise when he came to us was as a tennis coach. He was an All-American tennis player from Central Connecticut, he had a masters’ degree from University of Vermont in Nutrition and a PhD from Springfield College in Exercise Science, Exercise Physiology. And when you get people like that, it just kind of like, it’s exciting to look back at them and see Paul’s giving lectures here, or writes a paper there, or Denise Smith writes a paper for, with the firefighters, and so on. It was exciting. It’s been exciting to watch them, watch the program grow. And I think that, the new Athletic Director, I think she’s doing a fabulous job in what she’s able, doing. She’s really made some progress. LG: And who is the new one? �TB: Gail Cummings-Danson. She’s wonderful, she’s done a fabulous job. And I stay in touch with her. She calls some, often, and we chat. LG: So, what were the biggest challenges? TB: Budgets. Budgets. I mean, we had a hockey team we had to rent space for because we didn’t have a hockey rink. We had to find those moneys; equipment for hockey, lacrosse, those sports are very, very expensive. LG: And there’s still no hockey rink! TB: No hockey rink still, but at least they have a space out there that — I was on the Rec Commission in town when we built that rink and, uh, we have a designated locker room and ice time, and so on. But, ah, yeah, we do not have a rink, and that, that’s a drawback for the program, but … there are priorities, right? But budget was huge, I mean it was just, I think about it, what we used to pay our personnel. As a result, a lot of our coaches were part-time. And eventually moved them all to full time and now they have full time assistants, but, at the time, just, the budgets were, … like I think of putting them in a van, a 15-passenger van, and driving them up to Middlebury or over to Williams rather than putting them on an upstate bus — those were the decisions that we had to make if we wanted the programs, so, you weighed them, both sides, I mean it’s, it was — those were hard decisions. Today they are in busses, and, you know they’re safe, safer traveling than in a 15-passenger van. SUE BENDER: Tim, could you describe the program that you had when you started and what the full array of programs looked like by the time you left? TB: Sure. Well, when I started, we really, as I mentioned, only had those four teams that really played a varsity schedule, the rest were really club teams. �SB: And the four teams were? TB: Women’s tennis, women’s field hockey, women’s basketball and women’s lacrosse. So, we really didn’t have any of the men’s teams that were playing, quote unquote, a varsity schedule. So, we developed through joining associations, we joined the Mayflower Conference, which is a New England conference, with similar schools in size but not in academic, uh, [clears throat], excuse me. But, um… LG: Who were some of the, what were some of the other schools? TB: Franklin Pierce, Nathaniel Hawthorne, umm, Castleton, New England College, those were some. Uh, Roger Williams. But it was, then it was also the NAIA, National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics, out of Kansas City. We weren’t quite ready to develop a program to compete at the NCAA level yet, but then a few … we were that, in the Mayflower Conference and the NAIA for three or four years, then we joined the ECAC, the Eastern College Athletic Conference, which is about 350 schools from Maine to Virginia, Division 1, 2 and 3. And once we got into that level and were able to compete we joined the NCAA and then we developed the programs through the years; uh, each program has been very competitive at the NCAA level. And winning national championships. Not that, I should put this in right away, national championship is not the goal as I saw it in 1980 when I came. I wanted a very good experience for a student athlete. A lot of schools that we see are really athletic students, right, like Ohio State, Michigan and Florida, and so on. We really wanted to have the students have a real positive experience. And in the mid ’80s I was on a panel. There were three Division 1 Athletic Directors, two Division 2 and one Division 3 — I was the Division 3 Athletic Director. We each had 12 minutes to talk about our programs. And then went down, 1, 2 and 3, and they got to me at the end and I said, “You know, this is wonderful, a lot of money that these programs have, but athletics at Skidmore College is much more impactful on the campus than at Ohio State. We have about 400 of our 2000 students play athletics. Do the percentage. Ohio State has about 400 and they have 60 thousand students, so it’s, - the student body is involved with our program, all of them; they are �participating in one, in one way or another, it seems.” It was, just, the numbers, to me, played a bigger role. And, we tried, uh, we tried competing with some of the, uh, NESCAC schools, like Williams, Amherst, Wesleyan, Hamilton and so on, and we weren’t, facility wise, we weren’t up with them and budget-wise we weren’t. But we slowly developed into those and we now have them on our schedule. LG: Scholarships have often played a large role in college athletics. TB: Right. LG: What role does it play at Skidmore? TB: None at all. We do not give scholarships. And again, that’s part of my philosophy on the student athlete. They choose Skidmore as a student and then they can come to play the sport that they are recruited for. Now, not to say that we’re not recruiting, heavily recruiting kids, because for the golf team, I would try to recruit two or three kids a year to have about twelve kids on the team, and we would probably send out 400 letters to prospective students that we knew were possible … could get into Skidmore, number one, and then could play at Skidmore. And that’s what all of the coaches are doing. When you don’t have a scholarship to give, which I think is healthier than trying to buy a student out of high school, um … it’s, uh, just takes a lot more energy and time and effort to get them. LG: So, you would visit the schools, when the students would play, and … TB: We would uh, I would pretty much see their schedule, see when they’re playing, um, for the golf we only saw them, really, in the summer, at times, at different tournaments, but the other coaches would go and see them play basketball, hockey, soccer, whatever, during the year, and … you know, try to develop a rapport with them. When I recruited kids and we got down to the end, I always wanted the student to bring their parent or parents with them to the interview. Because I wanted them in my office, sitting, talking, so we had a �three-way conversation going, because I wanted to see the relationship between that student and the parents. I wanted to see the respect and the love going back and forth, because if it wasn’t going back and forth there, it was never going to happen between player and coach. And there were some kids that that was the last time we, the last time that we actively recruited them to come to Skidmore College. And a few times the parent would call and say, “Well why haven’t you contacted my son?” “Well, because we’ve filled the spots with other people” or whatever. I mean you wouldn’t want to really lie, but we had filled the spots. But this student, this child, wasn’t going to fit in to our … our philosophy. LG: Ok, so, you’ve talked about some of the challenges, mostly budget [laughs], … but, what about … the highlights? What stands out in your mind as… TB: I think one of the things for me was when, John … he was in advising, academic advising. He’s passed away, moved to California … SB: Ramsey. TB: John Ramsey came to my office one day and he said, “You know you keep preaching” and this is the way he put it, “to me about their academics, yet you honor the outstanding athlete.” So, we developed an award, with his help, called the Tim Brown ScholarAthlete Award. And we give one to the senior, the outstanding academic athletic senior, every year, that award. That, to me, is just … that’s just rewarding to … to see something like that. And as a retirement present, Jeff Segrave kind of spearheaded raising the funds to support that, that award. So, yeah, I think that’s … that’s one of the big things. The other is just watching the growth of these people, as they come to Skidmore and stay or move on to other, other positions and jobs. LG: Did they stay in touch? TB: Yes. Yeah, they do. �LG: Any outstanding people you’d like to mention? TB: Paul Arciero is one that stands, and Jeff Segrave. I mean, when I came, Jeff was in his second year at Skidmore and I had to do a reappointment and a tenure letter for him, and review, and … he’s always been a very close friend. LG: How about students? Any outstanding students? TB: Uh yes, I mean there’s, um, I think Steve Cornell, Steve Yale, Scott Yale, Al Antonez, Bobby Antonez … I think of these guys. Heather Mitchell, Pam Thompson … there are a lot of great kids that, kind of, I’ve stayed in touch with for a long time; but I’ve been retired 17 years now and it kind of, like, drifts apart. LG: Where does the time go? TB: I don’t know where it went. But I think another highlight was, I’ll never forget, I’ve been nervous a lot of times in my life, but when Robert Spellman asked me to read at his wedding, this piece, and I looked at it and he sent it to me with blown up print so I could read it if I had to, … uh, I’ve never been so scared in my life to get in front of 200 people in that church and read what he wanted me to say at the wedding. It was … but it’s wonderful that I met … his children, have been part of our lives and he has for … ever since. LG: He was a student? TB: Yes, he was a student, yeah. LG: Do you remember what class? TB: He was ’85, I think. ’85 or ’86. He was a business major and a golfer. He also played �basketball. And a great supporter. He’s made a number of very significant donations to the golf program through the years. LG: So, what have most of your students gone on to do? Do you know? TB: Oh boy, all kinds of things. I mean, I’ve had a number of my golfers go into professional golf, obviously. Al Antonez is a club manager down in New Mexico, at Santa Fe, right now. A bunch of pros at clubs. In Philadelphia — Joey Pohle there, and Tommy Gilbert. And it just … you know, a lot have gone into business, as well. They are salesmen. Robert was in finance. Very, very successful in finance. It makes me feel old now, now that he’s retired. And Mike Harran, who was Steve Harran’s son. Steve was the business manager. He did an internship with Stewarts his senior year, wound up getting a job out of Stewarts. Got a … became District Manager, Manager, now he’s 59 years old, and I saw him with Gary Dake the other day and he’s retired! I thought, wow, that’s … makes me really feel old now! But a great, great career he had, and that was just because of the internship that he got through Skidmore College, through Stewarts. Tremendous career. SB: Good. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about your experience and vision of the role of athletics in a liberal arts institution such as Skidmore, and some of the, um, the trickiness, shall we say, of that relationship … the complexity, is the word I want. TB: Right. Well, I think the role is to give the kids an experience to compete against themselves as well as other students in their class and other colleges and universities. It’s very difficult to … to pull it out of anything I think is part of their everyday life. I mean I like the model I saw …when Bev Becker went to West Point for a year, also, and I like the model they have down there, when I went down, it was, you know, they get up in the morning and they do their … their conditioning workout, they do their academic work, and then they have a two hour spot in the afternoon where there is a varsity team, intramurals, activities of some kind, and it’s just part of your college experience. Uh, whether it happens to be a varsity sport or club sport, just your own personal workout, but �it’s part of your daily routine. And I see that as athletics — it’s just part of what a student does in their daily activity, daily routine at the college. SB: And does that, I’m thinking about the fit between that and some of the developing sense of health and wellness that, that we now have. TB: Correct. Yeah, and exactly. That’s the, I mean, that’s always been the thing that every coach pushes with his or her students, is that they get, keep themselves in shape and work out. Have the facilities to do that. Now we used the Y and other places until we started developing programs here. And now with the new facility going up, what a, what an opportunity for all of the faculty, staff and students at Skidmore College. It’s really going to be state of the art. But the sooner that people get into a regular routine, of exercise, and, whatever it might be, however vigorous it might be or however inactive it might be, it just is important that you be active in your life. LG: What do you think the new facility is going to add? TB: Well first of all the small — I shouldn’t say, the small facility that we have right now there is so much bigger than it was 25, 30 years ago — but what it’s going to allow now is it’s never going to be closed down, where faculty and students in their time, free time in the middle of the day, can’t go work out. Because if there was a class in there, you couldn’t go use the facility. And it’s small so that all of a sudden if there’s a team that goes in there or a lot of people have free time to go in, there’s not a station for you to go to, a treadmill or bike or weight machine and so on; that’s not going to be the case now. It’s going to be available whenever the building’s open, all the time. And it’s … right now I work out at the Y every single day, and the number of retired faculty, I just was, yesterday, talking with Bob [inaudible] for a long time. Retired faculty and current faculty, staff that are up there. I saw Mark Huibregtse last summer, just before I went south. It’s going to just be able to keep them on campus in a nice environment. I think it’s very healthy for a faculty member to be down there working out beside a student of his or hers. There’s a good relationship that can … only good things happen. �LG: One last thing I’d like to ask is what have you been doing since retirement? TB: I’ve been very busy. I saw how … LG: Oh, and what year did you retire? TB: ’06. 2006. 17 years. I saw my dad struggle with retirement. I saw what I interpreted as Joe Palamountain struggling with retirement. I mean his whole life seemed to be Skidmore College, which obviously Skidmore College needed at the time. So, I decided if I was going to retire, I had to have a plan. And so I had a plan. I was going to run the Alumni Golf Tournament for Mike Sposili. I was going to be involved with the Skidmore Hall of Fame. Be involved with the tournament, the FOSA Tournament, Friends of Skidmore Athletics tournament here. LG: Which? TB: That’s a fundraiser that, Mike Sposili is running it out of his office, Gail was running it out of her office for a while, and it’s Friends of Skidmore Athletics. You’d pay a certain amount of money to play in the golf tournament out at Saratoga National, and it raised a nice chunk of change for the Athletic program. LG: Saratoga National is a tough course! TB: Yeah, it really is tough. Then I knew I always wanted to be in Florida so I was down there, I’m a USGA Rules Official, so I went to different tournaments to … as a volunteer for colleges and youth, uh … youth programs. LG: And what did you do as a volunteer? TB: Just out on the golf course traveling around, kind of like a baseball, like an umpire; you �referee, you travel around — if the kids have a problem, they’re not sure how to, um, what the rules situation is, what their choices are with a given circumstances, you guide them through that decision. Then I met a wonderful man, Mallory Privett, who was in charge of the Honda Classic, and he got me involved with the Honda Classic and now I’ve been there sixteen years, fifteen - sixteen years, and I’m chairman of the Honda Classic. And I’m proud to say that we raised 7.2 million dollars last year for hundreds of charities and thousands of kids. The year before we raised 6.2 million, 6.4 million dollars. So, it’s just a ton of money and so many kids benefit from what we are able to do. LG: And the Honda Classic takes place where? TB: The last week of February at the Palm Beach Gardens at PGA National Golf Course champions’ course. And I might add that this is the last year as a sponsor, so they had an awful lot of things available at a very reduced rate, so I was able to pick up a dozen things for the tournament, the Saratoga Players tournament that I’ve talked with Paty … LG: The Chamber Players? TB: The Chamber Players, for, um, with Paty. We’ve got umbrellas and hats and balls and things for, uh, to give away as prizes, which was exciting. SB: Good. LG: Anything else we should add, Susan? SB: Talk to us, is there something you would like to just look back on? TB: I just, in the years, 26 years I was at Skidmore College, obviously you meet a lot of people �professionally, and there were a number of opportunities that arose where you might look to leave, and there were three offers made, and Carol and I, my wife Carol and I, thought and talked and looked at it and we just thought, “How can you leave home?” I mean Skidmore became home. And that was just the place that we’re going to, we’re going to stay here. It’s ah, we still have our house here, although we are eight months in Florida and only four months here, we still maintain a house and look forward to coming back to Saratoga in the summertime. But I, from the first, first week I was here and we had the retreat, Dean Weller, Eric Weller, had a retreat for the chairmen, and I got to know three or four of the other chairs very well, and did things with them, either playing squash or golf or tennis or whatever. LG: Who were they? TB: Peter Baruzzi. LG: In art? TB: In art. Earl Pardon, in art. Jeff Segrave with squash. Tennis with Don Chu , Jeff [Segrave]… [inaubible], Don McCormack — uh we played a lot of squash together, or something. I couldn’t play tennis with him, he was too good, but we could play squash together. And it involved us also with people in town like John Carusone and that whole group, Bill Dake, John Roohan, ah… Jack Carey, a bunch of people in town, and that helped us bring their support in for the cause. Not that it wasn’t already there, but it definitely did help. Ah, but when it just came time to look at another place you thought, you know there’s … it’s not greener. I thought when I came here in 1980, I’d be here three to five years and I’d be moving to a different situation. I looked at, probably my father-in-law helped me most, he said, “If you ever move it’s got to be either Williams, Bowdoin or Dartmouth. Those are the only ones.” And, opportunities came up at one of those but we didn’t pursue it enough, we were going to stay here, but three other opportunities came up and jobs were offered but we decided not to. This was home. It still is. �LG: Well, thank you Tim. TB: Well, thank you. It’s a pleasure. Thank you very much. It’s fun. [Recording stops, and then is re-started] LG: Tim, in conversation … you want to mention something about your relationship with Phyllis Roth? TB: Yes, thank you. I’ll preface that by saying that through my career, teaching high school and as a graduate student having bosses and being at Indiana University, Delaware, and then here, I’ve had many, many bosses through the year … ah, years, but Phyllis was in a class of her own. She just was spectacular! I can’t tell you the number of times and the guidance and the direction that, uh, that the athletic program and physical education program and dance programs benefitted by her, her counsel. I can remember going into the office, and I always got to the office early, 6:30, 7:00 o’clock every morning, and I’d see something on the, an email from Phyllis, so I’d answer it right away and “bing,” it would bing right back. She was on it right away. And never did a day go by that she didn’t get a response to you, no matter how busy she was. And she would call up and say, “listen, we need to discuss this,” she said, “We cannot be disturbed. How about meeting for lunch?” We’d go to lunch and spend a two-hour lunch, iron everything out, we were not disturbed. It was just tremendous. But she always seemed to be able to work out solutions to the most difficult problems. She was just a brilliant, brilliant woman and, uh, I just treasured the times that we had with her, and the counsel that she gave me, our faculty, and as a result the entire department. LG: Any one particular situation that stands out or, in general? TB: Well, I think that the addition to the sports center was one of the biggest ones. I had the �proposal in and we had, looking at some different things, and she looked at it and suggested some avenues to go and how to move with it and as a result, we’re sitting in a faculty meeting and David Eyman was the librarian then … he was making a presentation at staff meeting over at the Surrey and saying that we were going to close down half of the library for X number of months and then move into the new part when that’s done, and have to close it down, so it’s going to be a two, two and a half year project instead of a year project. And I thought to myself, “You know, what would Phyllis do?” Honestly, that went through my mind. I sat up and I said, “Dean Ross, what about the possibility of putting them into the addition that we just built at the sports center and we’ll wait for the intramural gym for another year?” I’m thinking that’s just what she would have done. It was in the best interest of the College, maybe not the Department, but the College, for us to give that space to the library so they could do it in a year. And those are the kinds of things that she just did time after time. LG: And Ruth Copans just talked about that …. TB: Did she? LG: …that, yeah, in her interview. TB: It was amazing how … the counsel that she gave. And then it influences your decisions. You start looking in a broader way of solving problems, of coming up with solutions. LG: Good. Thank you. TB: You’re welcome. Thank you. SB: Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tim Brown Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 36:19 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit January 29, 2024 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tim Brown Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 22, 2023 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Tim Brown joined the Skidmore faculty in 1979 as Athletic Director and Chair of the Physical Education and Dance Department, with a mandate to develop an intramural and intercollegiate athletic program and to attract men to the College which had recently become coed. During his tenure, Brown also helped to develop concepts for the new sports center. In this interview, Brown reflects on the many initiatives he engaged at Skidmore, including coaching golf, enhancing intramural sports, expanding varsity sports teams and leading Skidmore to membership in the ECAC conference. As he expanded the breadth of Skidmore’s health, wellness and athletic programs, Brown focused on developing student-athletes among the college’s students. Since 2006, the Tim Brown Scholar-Athlete Award is given annually to the outstanding senior athlete who has excelled academically. Since his retirement, Brown has been involved in the Friends of Skidmore Athletics, Skidmore Alumni and he runs the Alumni Golf Tournament at Saratoga National. In Florida where he spends the winters, he has been involved with college and youth programs. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Beverly Becker ECAC Friends of Skidmore Athletics Golf Program Intercollegiate Sports Intramural Sports Program Jeff Segrave Joseph Palamountain NCAA Paul Arciero Phyllis Roth Polo Scholarships for Student Athletes Sports Center Construction Tim Brown Scholar-Athlete Award https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/3bce122b764ea6ba4bef43a6d162e506.jpg dade20f81fe2ea7696bbfae2e8147b30 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jan Saglia Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 4, 2016 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothea Trufelman, '16 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/cc26cefe6902787734243e39745b0bf0.jpg f06cf85dd3ae28b09279743737b239af Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Three generations of Skidmore, including Elana Scaglia, '15 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/7cf9d4f8806eada1260b61a21e81da53.mp3 8eb704c31241c989b9a5d369e0380876 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/9689ad18e91c96bcda526ec460cd5778.docx ca1f1a4bca54d74e201e0cf72440852a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jan Scalia '86 Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jan Scaglia '86, Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 3, 2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audio Description An account of the resource During her time at the College, Jan Scalia '86 majored in Studio Art and enjoyed helping with dance activities. In this interview, she discusses her tri-generational family: her mother graduated in '59 and her daughter in '15. She also discusses drinking culture, January term, and a professor "scandal." Language A language of the resource English (eng.) Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. June 4, 2016 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stern, Rebecca Zosia, '16 Alhambra alumna alumni art history arts Barclay's caring faculty close-knit community coed Connecticut development dormitory drinking age Elana Scaglia friendships J-Term Jonsson Tower new campus old campus Pat's Saratoga Springs Scribner Village second generation Skiddie Skidmore child Skidmore College Skidmore parent social life tri-generational https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/efc8c15eac9a46497ab0e5edabe7dc8a.jpg 9b8474f88e40e88878009d56330441ee Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Matthew Rosen, '76 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothea Trufelman, '16 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/3930cfd2ce9c6fabbf9d13b04d9e7f97.mp3 01b2d2713471176bc41514c79cc695fd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Matthew Rosen '76 Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Matthew Rosen '76 Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 3, 2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audio Description An account of the resource During his time at Skidmore, Matthew Rosen '76 participated in Student Government as senior class president and played recreational tennis. In this interview, conducted on Alumni Reunion Weekend, Rosen recollects vivid memories on the Wilmarth Dorm fire, where one student died, and the process of choosing Carl Sagan as his class' commencement speaker. Language A language of the resource English (eng.) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Stern, Rebecca Zosia, '16 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stern, Rebecca Zosia, '16 alumni arts business cafeteria campus job Carl Sagan Clare Oles class president coed commencement speaker Dean Oles downtown campus history major John Harris lifelong friendship new campus Ohio old campus Peabody dormitory Pete Sipperly Ralph Sciancio reunion weekend SGA Skidmore College Spanish student government tennis tragedy Wilmarth dormitory fire https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/e20f32f9d25f8c56cb58d59bc0151c01.jpg 0f156de29d7b56e4389b5034a104be36 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Janet Copeland Eschenlauer, 56 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 4, 2016 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothea Trufelman, '16 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/9a382b1c56813ac827798d09bd4f2f08.mp3 0bbd541cb344d3f97a30cfa52c21c447 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/7b39ab9034693fbaf8a406e19726aae4.docx 7fdfd2f2d1cb829bdb8a7bad1df71064 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Janet Copeland Eschenlauer '56 Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Rebecca Stern, '16 Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 04/06/2016 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Janet Copeland Eschenlauer '56 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 3, 2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audio, Photo Language A language of the resource English (eng.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stern, Rebecca Zosia, '16 alumna alumni arts ballet bibs for first year students biology chapel coed dance dormitory downtown campus East House mathematics Melissa Hayden modern dance New Jersey physical education reunion weekend Skidmore College student clubs welcoming community https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/5882d776f20a7a4b1f00d24a3896b0c7.jpg 3166bb475303964fd41c7784615ee8f3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource David Miner, '91 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 4, 2016 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothea Trufelman, '16 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/2fec22ee965a24a00d538db5dd661498.mp3 8742e22086c7197468182688f23a6cbe https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/ee97184191ad81bdd66d082ee1734fde.docx 3b1b8e9ad099424044c915062bf22fb6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Miner '91 Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 04/06/2016 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Rebecca Stern, '16 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource David Miner '91 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 3, 2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audio, Photo Language A language of the resource English (eng.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stern, Rebecca Zosia, '16 alumni Arthur Miller comedy ComFest David Porter Skidmore College Skidmore marriage student club https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/01c8c8e069acdcecffa6e344b77e5959.jpg a195e2a06751a7ac5b9d5be0cac40e70 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/cd61e3f47c4d2d86d6eea9e9a281a50d.m4a cabdb8a02cdf10bec66aad579bfdbbb4 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/130988402da4559a69388781f8bf6fc4.jpg 00f403913b838a591cd633f077bd9e14 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/18afeba47f4a1654b00b653001a7a78c.jpg 0b0f08762011357edeb8d017a29f63fd https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/9d2e9cd941c5068416ab32362a52164c.pdf f3c2858473c3e5cadaa63682b937810f PDF Text Text Liz Laitman Hughes ‘92 and Cathy Laitman Burke Interview Log 00:00:00 Liz Laitman Hughes grew up in Stamford, CT and lives outside of D.C 00:00:13 Cathy Laitman Hughes grew up in Stamford, CT and lives in California 00:00:30 Mom went to Skidmore, Liz Rosenthal Laitman, Class of 1957 00:01:00 Cathy interested in Studio Art and loved Saratoga 00:01:20 First memory of Saratoga was downtown and juxtaposed with the modern campus 00:01:50 Joke that each family member went to three different schools: Mom went when it was all girls. 00:02:00 Mother took cooking class that went to the supermarket to impress men 00:02:40 Cathy came in 1982, when the drinking age kept changing 00:03:03 Was a party and social school when Cathy started 00:04:45 Liz remembers interdisciplinary courses 00:05:20 Beginning of the core curriculum 00:06:30 Liz lived in Moore halls when on campus drinking rules changed 00:07:30 Liz went on tour of Tang 00:08:15 Cathy felt like Saratoga felt like a small town in the 80’s, now is more of a small city 00:12:00 Cathy lived in Howe Rounds freshman year, memories come back like insecurities 00:14:00 Liz majored in Art History and has worked in museums since 00:17:00 Cathy met with college friend years later, and felt like no time passed 00:18:15 First reunion for both Cathy and Liz 00:20:00 Had friends that did music, friends in Bandersnatchers 00:25:22 Cathy appreciated the intimacy of small campus 00:26:00 Both Studio Art minors 00:28:30 Liz always loved museums, went to NYC museums with mom 00:30:25 Liz produces art films 00:33:00 Liz and Cathy’s Skidmore experiences were different 00:36:00 Changes in technology change the college experience 00:36:30 Pay phones in each suite, many suite mates had long distance relationships 00:38:12 Mostly sophomores in Moore Hall 00:40:10 Cathy finds it great to look back and visit years later, “absence makes the heart grow fonder” 00:40:37 Remembering college has changed since Facebook 00:42:00 Wish Mom could see this Skidmore reunion � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Liz Laitman Hughes '92 & Cathy Laitman Burke '86 Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data wav Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Rebecca Stern Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 26/06/2017 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Liz Laitman Hughes '92 and Cathy Laitman Burke '86 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 3, 2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (eng.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/562d637b96311cf28c5bb454cc7bf1d2.jpg 2ba9fbee0ebc28177fc0e830914cb842 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/ec5417e100df540a4a9e67d4549dcddb.m4a d1e887704740c2e3889bbe1608cc27a9 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/defbc0c36a98e1dfa801964d3b3c4941.pdf 28ea757456b1732d49063ae89aea3ec0 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Sue Van Hook Years at Skidmore: 1992-2010 Interviewer: Andrea Wise Location of Interview: Cambridge, NY Date of Interview: June 3, 2021 00:00:00 Header 00:00:31 Fall 1992 hired as part-time Teaching Associate. “It was so important to me that I personally drove my application to campus.” 00:01:42 Realized “This is a college in the woods. This is home for me!” 00:02:32 60% fall labs were taught outdoors 00:03:15 Previous career was in land conservancy, 5 years in CA and 5 years in ME 00:03:40 1992, North Woods very quiet; by 1995, mountain bike race, other unsustainable uses 00:05:00 Argued that North Woods is irreplaceable “living laboratory.” 00:06:05 With support from Pres. Glotzbach, Mike West, and Mike Hall, Campus Environment Committee was allotted money for creation of a North Woods stewardship plan. 00:06:25 Prior to Van Hook’s time at Skidmore, the North Woods had been used for teaching (for art, literature, geology, music, physical education, etc.), but while she was there, academic use became more extensive & formalized. 00:07:35 Karen Kellogg hired at Skidmore and Environmental Studies major was born; she brought Northeast Regional Climate Summit to campus 00:08:15 “Because of our North Woods, … academics from all over …willing to come and …were very, very jealous." 00:09:16 Mike Hall attended Campus Environment Committee meetings and listened carefully supporting the creation of the North Woods stewardship plan. 00:09:40 Van Hook wrote stewardship plan in summer. Also showed staff woods as explanation. 00:10:09 North Woods home to water snakes, redwing blackbirds, foxes, owls, prehistoric horsetails, yellow ladies’ slippers, 33 of the 36 species of ferns in NY state, etc. 00:11:00 “…those things started to disappear as more and more people came … the tragedy of the commons story.” 00:12:08 Van Hook told Glotzbach & West, “The environment really needs to be part of every decision the college makes.” 00:13:10 Therefore, Glotzbach & West invited chair of Campus Environment Committee to attend Institutional Policy and Planning Committee meetings. 00:14:25 Once on campus, Van Hook considered getting PhD. However, realized would have to give up many community and parenting activities. Decided “I had the best of both worlds” being involved in community and teaching the fun part of classes. 00:17:07 Skidmore had been hiring TAs on adjunct, one semester at a time basis. Teaching quality suffered as adjuncts were unfamiliar with the labs. With Phyllis Roth’s support, Department chair Dave Domozych formalized one-year contracts, then three-year contracts, and eventually a Senior Teaching Associate position for long-term TAs. 00:19:20 Curricular changes in 18 years — in first 8 years, 4 required lab courses before students could specialize. Then, demand for specialization sooner, so 4 courses combined to 2. �00:20:16 Spent a summer learning Cell & Molecular Biology lab techniques. Challenging at first, but then became fascinated with the microscopic world where “molecular engines … send things around inside the cell.” 00:22:09 One-on-one research opportunities led some undergraduates to publish papers. 00:22:53 Effects of digital age on writing quality, plus combining foundational courses, led to loss of student abilities for cross-disciplinary thinking, making connections on their own. 00:23:39 Climate change has increased student awareness of environment and related interests in gardening, outdoors, etc. 00:25:00 New science wing allowed for grant funded collection of specialized microscopes; also, atrium led to more connection between science faculty because more mingling. 00:26:10 Phyllis Roth - in addition to being supportive of TA professionalization, also extremely personally supportive during Van Hook’s breast cancer. 00:28:10 Roth unique, easy to talk to. ,one of a kind; when being treated for her breast cancer, Roth wore many different wigs, saying “let’s make it fun.” 00:29:30 Van Hook had 3 young children, 30 minute commute, and multiple community activities when starting as TA. Work-life balance? Schedule corresponded well with children’s school, and no pressure to research/publish, but encouragement to do so. 00:31:09 As the children grew older, worked at Skidmore for summers.” Skidmore Life Science Camp for Girls - taught 8 or 9 years, “awesome experiences.” 00:32:24 Camp teaching evolved into summer independent study work with Skidmore students, which then evolved to working with Ecovative & continuing research with Skidmore students. 00:33:55 Technology changes: Did “chalkboard teaching” while grad student, then overhead projectors in first years as Skidmore TA, then whiteboard/smartboard teaching along with two younger peers (“Charlie’s Angels”). 00:35:21 When Blackboard tech arrived, where providing syllabus, giving assignments, grading lab reports was all done through software, “it was really a big part of my decision to transition and leave.” Preferred grading outdoors. Zoom has advantage over Blackboard because can see students. “I really rely on energetic exchange between people — to know how they’re doing, to know how I’m doing, who’s struggling, who has a question…” 00:38:15 Working with HEOP students (Higher Education Opportunity Program) — saw student potential, many challenges for them, much extra help in office hours. 00:39:45 One student, with much mentoring, is now health care professional in El Salvadore. 00:41:01 Was once called at 2 am from very stressed student, worked with HEOP to help him complete semester; “I … learned their life stories,” gained trust. 00:42:00 Students with major life challenges — need to start supporting them earlier; HEOP students arriving on campus earlier. “Some of my best experiences … pre-orientation trips.” 00:44:22 Only one woman faculty when Van Hook was in college in 1970s. Saw her in Albany airport years later; now very close. “She was my role model for being a female scientist.” 00:44:50 At Skidmore in 1992, a few women faculty in department, a few people of color, all of the TAs were women. Now changes - some more diversity. Still, a need for STEM pipeline. 00:45:55 Eg. Soul Fire Farm teaches African American’s how to farm, providing a pipeline. 00:47:45 Science “frontiers” - currently shifting away from the microbiology frontier (previous frontiers were space and oceans). Now it’s soil! 00:48:15 Agricultural practices as far back as Mesopotamia are wrong. Soil mycorrhizal systems of fungi and bacteria shouldn’t be tilled because leads to off gassing of CO2. 00:50:05 Climate change can be reversed with better soil management. �00:53:35 Story of transition to Ecovative: dreaming techniques, “life is mushrooming.” 00:55:00 Mycorestoration and mycoremediation workshops with Paul Stamets. 00:57:12 Thursday Naturalists (octogenarians) - saw face in Chaga mushroom. 00:59:23 Snake death dance/heart shape, message to “do what I love most.” 01:02:55 Phone call with Eben from Ecovative - told about dream exercise, chaga & snake. 01:03:37 Began mentoring Ecovative staff. 01:04:55 Won EPA grant, collaborated with Skidmore students (research). 01:05:50 Fall 2009, because of recession, Skidmore needed to lay off 70 people - offered voluntary incentives, provided Van Hook with “graceful transition” to Ecovative. 01:07:00 “The message for me in my whole healing journey from the breast cancer has been to listen to your heart more.” 01:07:55 Taught Ecovative employees fungi/science, first company grew slowly, then 60 employees during a recession! Mushroom packaging was ahead of its time, now catching on. Now Ecovative exploring alternative meats. 01:10:10 A thread through her careers was to care for people; misses the students tremendously. 01:10:48 One more Skidmore story - transformative experience of student with cerebral palsy. Mattress in car to get to experiment site in North Woods, photographed slides at different magnifications so she could see what other students saw. She now has “PhD in neuroscience so that she could understand her illness.” “Those are the things you teach for… I miss the students.” 01:13:00 End � https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/7d5aa65f6eed3a4fe29863d1cbf5e72e.pdf 6f41583bee6f5da22ed932054f8144dd PDF Text Text Interview with Sue Van Hook by Andrea Wise, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Cambridge, NY, June 3, 2021. ANDREA WISE: Good morning, this is Andrea Wise interviewing Sue Van Hook on the morning of June third, 2021, at her home in Cambridge, New York. And now I’m going to have Sue introduce herself and tell us how she first got involved with Skidmore College. SUE VAN HOOK: Good morning, Andrea. It’s great to see you again, after 11 years, since I left Skidmore College. So, I came to Skidmore as a Teaching Associate for a part-time position teaching Population Biology. And I had a two-year-old at the time, and two other girls in elementary grades, and my husband came in one day and said, “It’s time for you to go back to work.” So, there was an ad in the paper, the Albany Times Union, for this part-time position in Population Biology and I said, “Well this fits pretty well.” And I was applying for another job, with American Farmland Trust, at the same time. And, I went to two — both interviews, and as it turns out it was great that I got this job and not the other one. [laughs] But I remember that it was so important to me that I personally drove my application to campus. AW: Oh wow! SVH: Since I lived nearby. And I drove in to the main entrance there and I was just overwhelmed with the allée of, not even a formal allée, a woods, of trees, for quite a distance, as the first impression that this college was making on anyone who entered it. And then I turned on to the perimeter road to get to the Dana parking lot, and I got more into the woods. And when I turned into the parking lot there were tons of trees in the parking lot and I got to park near the trees and they shaded my car and I thought, “This is a college in the woods! This is home for me!” The woods are my home. I feel more comfortable there than anywhere else, so I felt really really good about that first impression. And then I went in and met Bernie Possidente, and he was wearing red sneakers and it just got better from there! [laughs]. They ended up giving me a very informal interview that day — they were desperate for someone for this position and, um … I think I got a call within a couple of days — “You’re hired.” [laughs]. Very, very fun. So, as it turns out, I was teaching for Monica Raveret Richter in Population Biology, and it wasn’t exactly my field — I was a botanist and mycologist, but it was okay. And the best part of the class, for as long as we could in the fall we went outdoors for the labs. And we did three weeks of labs on bees — testing bee preferences. We made, the students made their own bee feeders, we kept beehives in the lab, they learned how to paint bees, we were almost handling bees, and we did it all in the North Woods, so I was, like, “I get to teach the fun part of the course with the great students in lab, hands-on, for three hours, outdoors!” AW: [laughs] SVH: “Outdoors again, next week too!” And so, I would say a good 60 percent of our labs in the fall semester were outdoors in the North Woods, and it was amazing! It was amazing! And so the reason it’s so important to me is I came from 10 years background of land conservation before that. On both coasts. I was a preserve manager for the Nature Conservancy in northern California �for five years, where I did my graduate work, and then I was a director of stewardship and land conservation for Maine Coast Heritage Trust for the whole coast of Maine. And that was my entrance into this great new campus with woods! So, it got challenged right away. I came in ’92 and it was in 1995 that the first championship mountain bike race was held for New York State in our precious woods. And that changed, sort of, the course of history for the North Woods. They’re still a wonderful place to be, but it’s, um, it’s harder for me to go there every year. AW: I’ll bet. SVH: Yeah, but the beginning part was, I would be out there by myself scouting, preparing, and I would be there for hours and never see another person, and … besides the carriage roads, you know, which had been maintained well for a hundred years or more, the small trails were small! Really small! You really felt like you were in the woods! And so … lucky. AW: Yeah. So, tell us a little bit, please … I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about just how you opted to embrace the North Woods as a teaching lab and formalize it a little bit more for all of Skidmore. I mean, there was a great deal of work that went in to development … I hate to use the word “development,” but to embracing the North Woods and having it become a teaching opportunity for you and others on the Skidmore Campus, of course the students as well. SVH: Yes, so, that is a long story … and it goes through three college presidents. And, what I saw there was a living laboratory, and the argument I made after this threat from the biking championship, was that we could build 10 science buildings and we could take wrecking balls to them and we could still rebuild them — we wouldn’t lose too much, other than money. But what was occurring in the North Woods was, if we were wrecking it with inappropriate uses on slopes and willy nilly trails being created, without any stewardship — we couldn’t replace that ever. So we’re looking at tens of thousands of years of evolutionary history in the fauna and flora, and now the funga … there’s a new word for fungi kingdom, it’s called fun-ga. Love it! We could never replace that, and that was the argument I made, and I thought to a classical scholar such as David Porter, he would hear that argument. Didn’t. To Jamie Studley — she didn’t hear that argument either. And finally, it was actually Mike West and Phil Glotzbach together who heard that argument, and we were able to finally get some level of protection for … in the shape of a stewardship plan that we ended up writing through the Campus Environment Committee, to sort of formalize this as a living laboratory. And in the meantime, well, even when I got there the woods were being used. They were being used by art students, they were being used by literature classes — they were studying Thoreau. They were being used by the geology labs. They were being used by music … and some PE teachers were, you know, Physical Education had their students out there. So, I think there was always a history of students using the woods, but not as extensively or formally as what we did over the course of the 18 years that I was there. AW: So at some point you became involved with the Campus Environment Committee. Your love of the North Woods, your sensitivity to the concerns surrounding overuse of campus resources, led you to a broader appointment or a broader position on the Campus Environment … so tell me a little bit about that. �SVH: I don’t remember how I got invited to that committee, but [laughs] it probably was after the bike race. Umm, Eban Goodstein, from Economics, was chairing the committee at that point, and I just sat in on a couple of meetings and then I went, “Yeah, I need to get involved in this.” And … its fuzzy where the leadership went, but Eban Goodstein, …well I guess one of the monumental things that happened during my tenure there was shortly after Karen Kellogg was hired and ES was born — the Environmental Studies major was born. Eban brought … no, Karen actually brought — Eban had left and gone to Lewis and Clark, and he started the first Climate Science Summit among 40 academic institutions — and this would have been the early 2000s, and Karen went to that on the west coast and then she brought it back to Skidmore and we had our first Northeast Regional Climate Summit on Skidmore Campus. It’s pretty awesome! AW: Yeah. SVH: Yeah. It was very empowering to know that we had the awareness building there. And because of our North Woods, all of these academics from all over New England and the Northeast were willing to come and we went out there with them and showed them our living laboratory and they were very, very jealous. Turns out there were only seven college campuses in the Northeast that had adjacent properties, and ours was one of the larger ones. The biggest one is at Williams College, with 2,500 acres, but it’s not immediately adjacent to campus. AW: When you say adjacent properties you mean wooded properties? SVH: Yeah. Walk out the door from a classroom into the woods. AW: Okay. SVH: At Williams you have to get in a car or take a bus to get there. But ours was one of the next larger ones, and that was an important fact for me. I mean, I said to the admissions people, “Mary Lou, this needs to be featured. You want to attract good students here? We have one of the largest living laboratories. Put it in the admissions information!” And so, so that was an interesting progression. And I guess I just got more and more involved in the committee, as a member of the committee. I remember Mike Hall being on the committee, and Mike was really good at listening. He was really good at listening, and he represented a lot of the financial constraints for the Institution but he was also very supportive. So we got money to do the Stewardship Plan, and over the summer I wrote it and did all of the research, and I took Karl Broekhuizen out there; he’s like, “What is this all about?” And I said, “Why don’t you come on a walk with me, Karl?” and it was the middle of a hot summer day and I walked him on every single trail out there in an hour and a half, and he was quite [laughs] quite exhausted by the end, but it, it drove home the point. Because a lot of the people sitting on campus in offices just see the edge … right? They just see the edge. Step in a couple of feet and you’ve got water snakes three feet long in the Wilson Marsh, and the redwing blackbird territories, and you’ve got the horsetails, which are prehistoric, dinosaur-type plants, growing around the water tower! And you go a few more feet over the hill and you’ve got the yellow ladies slippers, which only grow on limestone soils — very, very rare populations in all of New York State! And eventually you get �deep into the woods and you get 33 species [of ferns] — of 36 total species in New York State, 33 of them are on our campus! AW: That’s awesome. SVH: That’s what they didn’t see. AW: Yeah. SVH: That’s what they didn’t see. They didn’t hear the bird, they didn’t see the owl, they didn’t see the fox family that we showed students — with the pups — they didn’t see that, and all of those things started to disappear as more and more people came to the campus for biking, for dog walking, you know, it’s the tragedy of the commons story. SVH: So eventually my good friend Sue Rosenberg, in your department, became the chair of the Campus Environment Committee, and she was chair when we wrote the Stewardship Plan. And we were able to hire some students. We were able to create a Director of Sustainability in the Facilities Department, who was housed there, who lived there, and at first it was a student, Mary Patterson, and eventually it became a full-fledged position after I left. So, after Sue — I can’t remember the transition with Sue, but it went from Sue to me. And, the Campus Environment Committee included one faculty member that was the liaison to the Institutional Policy and Planning Committee, the highest committee level of the college. And that person never showed up at our meetings, … I mean, just rarely. I don’t even remember; it was a bunch of different faculty members in the time that I was on the committee. And so finally I went to Phil Glotzbach and Mike West and I said, “So, this arrangement isn’t working.” And I said, “You know, the environment really needs to be part of every decision this college makes. Every single decision. Whether it’s about students, whether it’s about student housing, whether it’s about curriculum, whether it’s about physical plant — there’s an environmental component, and especially as climate change is facing… growing more and more in our faces, we have to plan for this. And I said, “You know what, this woods we have is a carbon storage facility. We can get paid for this woods! Have you thought about that?” Mike West, at the time, had just arrived on campus, and he came to our meetings. He came to our meetings — a lot of them! And he heard the issues we were working on, one of which was energy, renewable energy; and Karen was very, very involved in pushing that. He investigated geothermal and look what happened! I mean the whole campus is geothermal now, and we led the academic community in that effort, absolutely led it. So, they heard me and said, “Ok, fine, let’s take the chair of the Campus Environment Committee and have them come sit on IPPC,” and at the time it happened to be me so … you know, me, little TA in the Biology Department, sitting with all the deans and …! [laughs]. It was great! I loved it! And I sat quietly for six months and listened, and then I started using my voice. So that’s sort of the trajectory of my time with Campus Environment Committee. I don’t even know if the Committee still exists, frankly, now that we have a Director of Sustainability, I have a feeling it’s been subsumed under that umbrella? AW: Yeah, but it has assumed a prominence that it would not have without all this foundational work that you led. So, tip of the hat to you, Sue. �AW: I wonder now if this is a good opportunity to, it sounds like it might be, to lead into your work in the sciences. The challenges and the rewards of being a Teaching Assistant in the Biology Department, not only incorporating the North Woods in much of your work, but also other opportunities in the classroom and beyond. SVH: Yeah, thanks for that question — that’s a great one. So, I have to tell you that I got back on campus. I was sharing an office in that — remember that weird hall down from your office, it was just windows and they put up a board. I was in one of those [laughs], the first one — with another woman who was hired part-time, a teaching associate … who didn’t do very well, she was gone in one semester. But, … so I got there and I’m like, “I’m back in academia! Oh, this feels fun!” I started unpacking all of my science books, you know, we’d moved to Cambridge two years earlier and I’d just left them boxed up in the attic, and I brought them out and I put them on my shelves and I’m like, “Ok, maybe it’s time for me to go back to school and get my PhD!” AW: Oh, my goodness! SVH: “Maybe that’s a really good idea. The kids are kind of all in school and taken care of in daycare; I can manage this.” And I thought of it for about six months, and then I watched all of the biology faculty, [laughs] and I saw that if they had children, they had one, and if they had any social life, it was with one another — you know, maybe Friday-night pizza, that was about it. And I was, meanwhile, coming … I was in a part-time position, I was coming home and coaching pee-wee soccer, pee-wee softball, I was coaching with my kids, doing dance classes with them at the Dance Center. AW: Sorry to interrupt, you have three children? SVH: Three daughters, yes, yes, yes. And I thought, “Well, I’d have to give up all of this community involvement that I have in my community here. Head of PTA Environment Committee, you know, lots of things… I was involved with singing in the Chorale. And I thought about it for a long time, because I was always a really good student, at the top of my class, and I was like — the PhD trajectory, I was accepted to a PhD program or two and I chose not to at the time and I went with my husband’s dreams instead of mine, and so I was like, “Yeah, I’m really supposed to go down that path,” and I really made a very conscious decision that I had the best of both worlds. And teaching labs was like definitely the funnest part of the course. I felt that students retained more of those experiences than they did from lectures, and I thought, “Just be happy with this. This is enough. This is fine. This is awesome.” And, the way things grew — and this is where Phyllis Roth comes in — she was Dean of the Faculty at the time when Betsy Franz left, and passed the baton to me. We taught together for one semester and Betsy left. After 25 years she said, “Sue, I feel confident enough that you are going to fill my slot here. This is good.” [laughs]. Almost did. I didn’t make it 25 years. But, at the time they had been hiring a lot of adjunct TAs, you know, one semester at a time, and they were "less than” … they were “less than” in delivery to the students. They were barely able to teach the labs in terms of following directions of what the lab exercise was or experiment was. And so, the Department made a conscious decision to up it, to up the standard. And, you know, a �lot of research institutions, the labs are all taught by graduate students, right. So Skidmore is different in that regard, we didn’t have a graduate program. So we actually hired people. So, I was part-time for fall semester; for spring semester they asked — I went from part-time teaching two labs, I think, a week, to an overload spring semester. [laughs] So they … they saw a good thing when they got one. I was very broadly trained with my natural history education at Humboldt State University in Northern California in botany and mycology. So, I did the overload and then by that fall I’m like, “Okay, that was not fun! [laughs] And you’re paying me $2,000 to do this? No, I don’t think so.” So we really made the TA positions more formalized, and we were on one-year contacts at least. And then when Dave Domozych became the chair and his wife was one of the TAs, along with me, she had her PhD, Dave went to Phyllis and said, “You know, can we give them three-year contracts?” And so that happened through Phyllis’ support. And so there was an evolution, and the other … the next step, was, “Can we give them any promise of a promotion? Anything? Can we give them anything?” Well at the time Loretta Parsons had been there over 25 years and … she, you know, that’s a long time. Can we at least make her a Senior Teaching Associate?” Which they did, and she got a big chunk of change, and then, we had to go through the process but there was at least that opportunity to get one step higher. Ok, so we did it! And then, the three of us that were there used to joke about the new people coming in and say, “You know, we’d make more money if we quit and reapplied.” [laughs]. AW: [laughs] I don’t know [laughs]. SVH: [laughs] Well, they always started way higher than we did. I started at $18,000. AW: Oh wow. SVH: Yeah, for a full-time salary. Yeah, so…But, I don’t care about all of that, and part was that it was the most fun! And I went through several curricular changes. So, we had single courses for two years straight — students had to take Population Biology in the fall, Plant Biology in the spring, Cell and Molec in the next fall and Animal Biology in the following spring. They had to do two years of required courses before they could get in to electives. And after eight years of that — this is the changing in the student, incoming student expectations and standards, right? They want … there was more specialization happening sooner. Right? So, they want … the Cell and Molecular thing, track, was like really hot stuff, right? The genetics and doing the PCRs and identifying the genes and … that was just hot, a hot ticket item. Field biology? Ehh, not so much. [laughs] Right? So there was pressure on the department to shorten that requirement phase from two years to one year, so we crammed those four courses into two courses. So all of a sudden, I had to teach Cell and Molecular Biology, as a field biologist. So I had a very long summer training with Pat Hilleren, [laughs] learning to do PCRs, and I failed about seven times and I said, “You still want me to teach this?” [laughs] AW: And help us … PCRs are? SVH: Polymerase Chain Reactions, right? So you’re extracting DNA and then you’re subjecting it to a bunch of enzymes and chopping it up and replicating it really fast in a heated up little machine — this is how much I remember [laughs] — not very much! And you amplify the DNA �so you have a big enough chunk that you can run it on a gel and spread it out so you can actually see the different genes. AW: Okay. Oh wow! SVH: This was like — I had done plenty of labs, gel technique with auger and Petrie dishes, so handling the auger gels was fine, you know, I knew all of that, but working with the DNA part! But then I had my eyes opened to this whole other world, this microscopic world, and how these molecular engines act like little Pac Man and move, send things around inside the cell, and I eventually became totally fascinated with it. AW: Um, so obviously this is a response to student expectations, student preparation, and just changing methodologies in academe, right? I mean there’s a whole bunch of things at work, forces at work on this, but in terms of student outcomes, the preparation they got at Skidmore did led to some pretty awesome achievements on behalf of our alumni, correct? SVH: Yes, correct. The super-achievers were still there. And Nicole Donofrio published several papers as an undergraduate, doing research with Dave Domozych. There were a few others, we had, there were a few whiz kids that just took it very far, as far as they could, because they had that one-on-one research opportunity, which continued all through the 18 years I was there. That was very special, and we emphasized that to the Admissions Department, too. Very, very rarely can you go to an institution where your kid is going to get one-on-one research experience, if they choose, with a faculty member. Not a TA, a faculty member. We TAs expanded those opportunities, too, over the years, for more independent study. But, the writing quality declined. You know, it was really the digital age taking hold, right? Screen mentality, not having whole conversations, not learning language, not learning how to write it, not learning how to speak it. Everything getting shrunk to bite size. Not being able to synthesize and not being able to use cross-disciplinary thinking. So for me, the shrinking of the courses from four into two, we lost all the depth, and all that depth allows you to do the crossdisciplinary thinking, to make connections on your own — “oh THAT is really connected to THAT?” That all disappears. And so that was hard to swallow because you want to impart all of it. You want to say, “No, you need to know this much!” I would say the environment and the awareness of science literacy increased. Right? So you have more kids that are interested in the outdoors, more kids interested in gardening, more kids interested in environment, more kids interested in climate science …. So there was a student movement for environmental awareness, but I don’t see that the science requirements followed that. Now I think it’s shifted, so you can fill me in on … AW: Well, actually I’ve been gone now for a few years myself, but I believe you’re right, I think it has shifted. And then there is also, actually, the growth of Environmental Studies, which sort of emphasizes what you just mentioned, I mean, growth in science in a different area. But now, more important than ever, we have a brand-new science building at Skidmore. Have you been to that new building? Do you know much about it? SVH: I have not been there. [laughs] I’ve been back on campus a few times to teach for a few �people, lead some walks in the woods. Umm, you know, that said, I witnessed the new wing being built, at the tune of $4 million at the time, which allowed for the super-duper microscopy facility to be built. Again, Skidmore’s on the map because of Dave Domozych and that, and the grants he obtained for that — every kind of microscope we have. And undergrads get trained on them and get to use them, that’s unbelievable — no one gets to do that at undergraduate anywhere else. So I witnessed all that. And that, because of the atrium on that wing, being able to see all the floors brought the geosciences and the physical sciences and the chemical sciences and the biological a little bit closer. A little bit closer, because before we were isolated on floors and we didn’t really go between floors but the atrium we used and we walked down through there and we saw each other that way. AW: Sure, that makes sense. So you talked a little bit about Phyllis Roth, initially, and I’m just interested since she was Dean … and Interim President when you were there? I’m trying to remember. SVH: Yeah. AW: So I think you had some pretty good interaction with her, maybe you could give me a sense of how supportive she might have been of the sciences and of your work? SVH: Yeah, I love to talk about Phyllis. A wonderful character. [laughs] I miss her. So initially Phyllis, as I said, was very involved with Dave Domozych in upping our positions as Teaching Associates and giving us the opportunity for one promotion commensurate with salary increase, too, so that was very much appreciated. And then Phyllis did something really, really, personally wonderful for me. So I was diagnosed with my breast cancer on September 9th, 1998 — nine, nine, nine, eight. And I had told Dave Domozych, chair at the time, that I was going to give him a call the next day when I got my results, and either I was going to come or I wasn’t going to come. And the reason I was going to be able to tell him that was because Phyllis said I could take a year off paid. She gave me full pay for six months, she introduced me to someone in the English department who had just been through this, right away, and I went and had lunch with that person right away, Jo Devine, and we had a wonderful lunch — took away a lot of my fear. And then I was on disability pay for the other six months. It took that whole level of stress, that whole level of stress away. She knew I had to focus on me, and I don’t think I could have gotten through that year with my little children — my children were 7, 11 and 14 — and … not having to worry about finances, and my husband is a self-employed artist, so there wasn’t a whole lot coming in from that stream of revenue, and so this was a really, a huge meaningful, supportive act on her part. And then it was just too ironic that she then had to go through this herself. It was just too much. So, I will always hold Phyllis very dear to my heart, for that and many other reasons. I mean, she was someone I could just talk to, and I didn’t feel that way with a lot of people in the upstairs, on the fourth floor, but I felt very comfortable going to her with any kind of faculty-related concerns or student concerns. And she was just a pip! I mean, she approached her breast cancer by wearing a different kind of wig every day! I mean, I thought, “God, you’re so awesome!” I didn’t … I went bald and turbaned, you know, I couldn’t put a wig on my head! She goes, “Oh come on, let’s make it fun!” AW: I remember that. I do remember Phyllis’s many wigs and I’m not surprised to hear about �this powerful expression of personal and professional support for you and I’m glad for you and I think we all feel the loss of Phyllis, even now…. This sort of leads me into matters of gender and work-life balance, and obviously a health crisis is above the line here, but I’m just wondering, you had three children when you started teaching at Skidmore — you still have three children — your children were young when you started teaching at Skidmore. You had a 30-mile commute to Saratoga. You had engagements in the community and other interests. How did you balance all of this with a pretty demanding job as a lab teacher at Skidmore? SVH: Once I made the decision that being a lab instructor was enough, it eased. And I realized that I’m really only there eight months a year, right? I get pretty much three months off in the summer and I get January kind of off, although we are doing a lot of prep. So it corresponded very well with the kids in their school years. When they were really little, I took my summers off, and then I couldn’t resist the wonderful opportunities that Skidmore afforded me in being able to do research if I wanted to. So there was no pressure to publish and do research, like tenure-track faculty have, but I was certainly encouraged, and that was a gift, too. So I could use the facilities such as the autoclave in the microbiology lab, or the greenhouse, you know, to do experiments. And … and my love was fungi! So, one of the first, well, and we also had a sabbatical replacement for population biology for Monica one year, and his approach was to let students do independent research right from the get-go, right the minute they walked in the door as first year students. And Laurie Freeman and I were co-teaching the labs at that point and so we said, “Yeah, bring it on! We’ll create a 12, 15, 30, whatever many students out of 120 want to do this.” So, out of 120 students we had 10 percent — we had 12 students that wanted to do this. So, I felt glad that I had time off, but, as the years evolved and the kids grew older, I was able to go back there for summers, and one of the draws was the life science camp for girls, the Skidmore Life Science Camp for Girls, sixth grade to eighth grade. AW: Right. SVH: And … for one year we had it for boys, too, it was co-ed, because my daughter went one year with her co-horts who were guys. And the boys at sixth grade to eighth grade — oh my gosh, not worth it! [laughs]. Wayyy too hard to handle. So we decided, we made a decision that this is just going to be a girls science camp, you know, we’re just going to do STEM for girls. And I think I did that for eight or nine years, and … awesome, awesome experiences for the girls! It was pulling garlic mustard, we had them all in hip-waders in Wilson Marsh pulling out purple loosestrife and while we were in there, we saw the snakes and the turtles and the birds nesting and it was just awesome. So, that evolved from that camp in the summer, which was a two-week camp, into then working independent study with students. And then, my connection with Ecovative, the last four years, or three, four, five years I was there, presented a new grant funded opportunity — it was for students to get paid to do research for the EPA and the USDA, and then after I mentored two students, two of our students in their senior years for those capstone research projects, both got hired immediately upon their presentations at the end of the summer over in Murray-Aiken, and worked for Ecovative for a number of years. I started working just independent study with anybody who wanted to, so I got a lot of ES students who were really fascinated with mushroom packaging and what Ecovative was doing for the environment, and worked with just a lot of different extra kids that way, as I was transitioning. �AW: I will talk a little bit about Ecovative in a minute, but I want to ask, also, if you can tell me a little bit — we talked about this before the tape started running — about IT, and changes in technology and how that may have affected you, expectations for you as a teacher, expectations of your students. Did it change the way you taught? Did it help/hurt? Some of the challenges? SVH: So, my first response is, I got out in time [laughs]. That said, my graduate work was done — and I TA-ed for seven years as a graduate student — so I did a lot of chalkboard teaching and I was very comfortable doing that. Then we started to get … we were still using overhead projectors in the labs … AW: I know, I remember [laughs]. SVH: … for eight years with Monica. I don’t think we got beyond overhead projectors in Plant Biology. Overhead projectors! I still have all of those mylars up in my filing cabinets. I just can’t throw them away, thinking someday they’ll be useful again. And then it evolved, and my exposure to it was through Environmental Science, through teaching. I eventually went to teaching half the year in Environmental Science, ES 105 labs, with Kim and Karen, which was — the nickname for the three of us, by the students, was the Charlie’s Angels! [laughs] And so, we got some pretty cool imitations from our students, I must say! But they started using the Smart Boards because they were younger faculty who had come in with it, right? I’m teaching up here with all the old faculty who don’t know how to do this, and they’re coming in with this whole Smart Board technology in front of the classroom and so I had to adapt to it. But by the very end, they introduced the Blackboard …? AW: Whiteboard? SVH: No, the Smart Board was the whiteboard, but the Blackboard was a software program where you interface with the students on the software, like you give them their assignments on there, you give them the syllabus on there, you read their lab reports on this thing, on this computer thing. I’m like, oh no, I do enough time on the computer screen, I do not want to be reading student papers on the computer screen when normally I go up in the field where my husband’s painting for a weekend and I look out over this beautiful landscape of fall leaves and I grade papers up there. That’s where I’m grading papers. I am not sitting at a computer grading papers. So it was really a big part of my decision to transition and leave. Yeah, I just did not want … and then they were just beginning to teach online courses and like, “Sue, do you want to teach this online course this summer?” “N-o, n-o.” AW: But of course, and I understand what you’re saying and I’ve felt it myself and I’ve heard it from others, but this past year of COVID has taught us, more than anything, the ability to pivot and use online resources. It’s the thing that kept many of us going. I mean, did it make you think, “Oh, should I have done more or should I do more, or …?” Any regrets? SVH: No regrets, but I did adapt, right? And Zoom was very different than what we had available 10 years ago. So Zoom you can see each other and you can put up your slideshow, your PowerPoint slideshow, and interact that way and see them, you know, you can at least see people. You know, I’m an energy worker, as well, I do healing touch, so I really rely on �energetic exchange between people — to know how they’re doing, to know how I’m doing, who’s struggling, who has a question, you know I just … the in-person thing will never be replaceable really, but Zoom does a pretty good job of making it available in this pandemic. And I think we will … you know, I really don’t ever want to drive to another meeting! [laughs] I do yoga four mornings a week, which I did this morning from my living room with my yoga instructor on the screen, and I may not ever transition away from that, actually. AW: Yeah, it’s true. SVH: Yeah. AW: So I want to briefly pivot here, myself, and just … you’ve sort of alluded to this a couple of times, you’ve mentioned students, and I’m just interested, over your 18 years at Skidmore, some thoughts about changes in the student body, or any particular student stories stand out in your mind even now? SVH: So one big elephant in the room is BIPOC. We haven’t talked about that. And during my tenure there it was the push across the board for multiculturalism to increase, multiculturalism on campuses. And I was certainly part of that. And HEOP [Opportunity Program] was a big piece of that, and HEOP in the sciences was definitely a challenge. So I always had HEOP students among the 48 or 50 students I taught every semester, and I was on the phone with the HEOP people over in Starbuck a lot, because they kept telling me, “Don’t alter your expectations, don’t alter the way you grade papers, don’t alter a thing. We’re bringing these kids in, we’re giving them extra help.” And, so, okay, so I gave the extra help in my office hours for making up a lab or redoing a lab or … and yet, I got into a real fight one time about this because I said, “They’re still pouring through the cracks. This isn’t working! This isn’t working. We need to do something different here.” And I remember we had one African American student, he was in my Population Biology Lab and Plant Biology Lab for the first two semesters — it was like, we had a department-wide discussion at one of our department meetings saying “We’re going get this guy through. He has enough potential, we are gonna get him through.” And we did. I had one student from El Salvador, who happened to be an exchange student here in this town and who my daughters adopted and gave all their clothes to because she arrived with no clothing. We went through the attic and among the three daughters we outfitted her with all her needs for the year. And she was playing soccer with my middle daughter and then she had the opportunity to stay and she came to Skidmore, and she was in my lab in Biology, in Plant Biology and Population Biology. I spent a lot of extra time with her and I knew her. I knew … she came here not knowing English, you know, as a high school student, eleventh grader, and even when she wasn’t in my courses, she was still in my office hours, you know, because she knew me and she could trust me and I mentored her, and I mentored her, and I mentored her, and I mentored her, and she went from being a C minus student finally up to like a B plus and got through. And she and I have stayed in touch and she is now back in El Salvador, living with her family, married, with kids, and is a health-care professional. AW: Oh wow. That’s awesome. �SVH: It’s a great success story. I had another situation where I was called at two o’clock in the morning from one of my students who had been admitted to Four Winds, and he was begging me not to flunk him, you know, to hold on, it was near finals time and the pressure was just too great and he collapsed. And in talking … I’m like, “Why are you calling me? I’m not the right person you should be calling.” He said, “But I can trust you, I can trust you, and you need to do this for me.” And so I got on the phone with HEOP and we came up with solutions. But I, in my office hours, had learned their life stories, and these are kids who are sending back money to their families, who took care of all their siblings all through high school, with single parents, I mean, their stories were just phenomenal! So, we need to do better, younger, we need to start at … three years old! You know! And it’s hard to force it at this level because you mentally see the need and want it to happen, but it doesn’t happen that way, you have to grow it. And so we started bringing the HEOP students on campus a whole month early, the whole month of August, to prepare them. Some of my best experiences were, Kim and I led pre-orientation trips to … and we did the Environmental Studies one. And so we took kids backpacking through the woods at Merck Forest. And I did that for eight years and we had a lot of HEOP students come on those, a lot of international students come on those, and one of the best times was [laughs] … Abdullah Bah did get through the program as well, and he came from Senegal, and we’re on this field trip and we’re working forestry all day long. We all have hardhats on and we’re clearing brush from the trail crew and we get to the end of the day at the cabin and I say, “Ok, it’s time to go for a swim in the lake.” That was our shower, right? And so everybody comes, and one girl got really hurt that day, she fell from the dock — that was an emergency we dealt with. And another girl that trip forgot her contacts, so that was another psychological emergency — I’m doing healing touch for her, [laughs] giving her my lavender oil to get her through the night, for her anxiety attack. Anyway, so we get back from the lake and then he shows up to me with this little towel and this little bar of soap and he says, “Could you please show me where the showers are?” [laughs]. And I said, “We were just there! Somehow that didn’t get communicated to you. I’m so sorry.” And I said, “But, down here in the creek there’s a little pool and it’s far enough away you could sit down there and do what you need to do.” AW: So you talked a little bit about changes in student diversity. Similarly, for faculty and staff, I mean, I’m not sure if this was a change that you noticed when you were there. You left Skidmore in … 2010 and you’d been there for 18 years so … 92? Yeah, ’92. So, you know, just … gender, cultural, and other diversity issues, as far as faculty and staff go. Anything there that comes to mind that you want to share, particularly in the sciences? SVH: So when I was in college in my Department of Botany, there was one woman faculty member in the ’70s. She taught Zoology and I took it from her. And she and I met in the Albany airport 40 years later, because she was from Albany, NY, and I didn’t know it! [laughs] Now we’re really close. And she went through breast cancer too, and she was my role model for being a female scientist. So, um … when I got to Skidmore there were … one, two … two of the tenure track people were women and … um, maybe five were guys. Chemistry … I don’t think there were any women chemists at the time. There were TAs — most of the TAs were women … I would say all of the TAs were women! All four floors, the TAs were women. Um, right, so we can do with less salary and we want to be Moms, and … so. But that changed, that definitely �changed. I think there was a time there were more women faculty in Biology than men. In terms of diversity, we had one Latinx … and that might have been it. Umm, and I don’t think that’s changed since I’ve left. I don’t think there’s anyone there that I know of. ES might be different, but …yeah, I know ES is different, I know they have two people of color. So, yeah again it’s that pipeline, right? It’s that pipeline, that STEM pipeline. And, um, where did I just see … oh, the whole organic regenerative farming movement is altering this. So there’s a farm nearby here somewhere called Soul Fire Farm that is run by African American people for African American people, to teach them how to farm. Think about that connection to slavery, right? So, they were the ones doing the farming, right? And where did that disconnect happen? Because we shoved them all into ghettos and cities where they couldn’t farm, or they were too poor to own land and they couldn’t farm, or they were still indentured, …. So that shift is fascinating — that deserves a PhD right there. But this farm is focused on bringing them through the pipeline, and that’s what we have to do in the sciences as well. And the science … what I’m seeing now is that the shift is away from molecular and cell science, the microscopic level, and back to big ecosystems-based science. I mean, climate change is forcing us there, right? And the more we’ve learned about fungi, I mean … fungi, my babies, have exploded since Paul Stamets, right? So, I brought Paul Stamets to campus in 2008, and it was Muriel Poston who had heard him speak at a botanical conference and said, “Sue, get this guy here!” [laughs] And, I got huge backlash because he was not an academic. She didn’t care because she saw he was doing science, but my department didn’t even frickin’ come to the talk. Yeah. So that’s a little aside, but anyway. So we’re seeing this push and the fungi … because we’re now going underground, right? So there’s always a frontier in science. So the frontier while I was at Skidmore was into the cells, into the DNA, right? And now the frontier is, we’ve gone to space, we’ve gone to the oceans [laugh], now the frontier’s beneath our feet. It is soil. We know nothing about the soil. And our farming and agricultural practices, way back from the fertile crescent in Mesopotamia, was wrong. To plow the earth destroyed all that mycorrhizal fungal thread network. And all the carbon plants … I just learned this year! I was a botanist — I just learned this year that plants are sending 40 percent of the sugars they make through photosynthesis to the roots! We’re all above ground people, we just see what’s above ground, right? “That’s a tree! Who cares about the roots! We know they’re there, okay!” No, 40 percent of what’s manufactured, the manufacturing plant is, which is making the sugars that the rest of life depends on, is being sent to the roots, and not to the roots but to the fungi and the bacteria in the root system, the mycorrhizal connections. And that is why our carbon dioxide in the universe is out of balance, right? 70 percent of carbon dioxide belongs in the soil. And because of … not because of burning fossil fuels, that’s only 5 percent, but because of our agricultural practices, where we till and we lay bare — you drove over here today, you saw bare fields, driving over here today — we lay bare fields, that means there’s no microbial life in those fields, and if there is any, it’s off gassing CO2 like crazy through respiration. That is where the CO2 is coming from. That’s where the bulk of it is coming from. I’ve spent the last five years reading my head off about this and studying this, because it ties my whole life together. And so … we need to stop the fossil fuel emissions, right, to stop the source, one of the sources, from going up in the atmosphere, but doing that doesn’t do anything with the carbon that’s already there. It’s going to take another 800 years for that carbon to go somewhere. So, putting it back in the soil, within two years, if we put two percent of the carbon, two percent, that’s all, back in the soil, we can bring the parts per million back down to 350 parts per million within 10 years. We can reverse �climate change in 10 years. And guess what? Our new president understands this. And this trend into the soil, this new frontier, is happening fast. Within five years it’s happened. Normally it takes … so I mentioned the first climate change report about excessive carbon dioxide, went to President Johnson’s desk in 1965! I have known about it since then. I have been teaching about it since then. That’s 50 years! And it took us that long, and it’s like kinda too late, right? But it’s not too late, because this whole soil story is catching on like wildfire, and there are bills in state legislatures and there are bills in Congress now and it’s just exciting. And guess what? It’s because of the fungi!!! AW: [laughs] So, as if you weren’t excited enough! [both laugh]. Um, you left Skidmore after 18 years and began yet another career. You’ve had a multi-career lifespan, which I think is very fascinating, and you went to work on fungi with Evo-cative? Evocative? SVH: Ecovative. AW: Ecovative, excuse me. It’s a challenging name. So, I want you to tell me a little bit about that, and maybe, it sounds like that sort of encompasses a lot of — it drew a common thread through a lot of your experiences. SVH: I’ll tell you how the transition happened, but just two days ago, I came full circle with that company. I’m writing a book about it and I’m nearing …progress, nearing ending progress on it, but two days ago I got up really early, 6:30, and I drove up to Merck Forest, and — I mentioned Merck Forest before, up in Rupert, Vermont — a 3,000-acre preserve. And, I’m becoming the new president of the board there in another couple of days. [laughs] AW: Congratulations. SVH: Thank you — my fifth career [laughs]. And I picked up the farm truck and I drove the farm truck down to Troy to Green Island, where Ecovative is, to pick up their waste product, which is spent oyster mushroom substrate that they’ve grown the new “My bacon” meat alternative on. So, I’m holding in my hands this mushroom that I brought out of the woods, by myself, in 2007 … brought it in to culture. That is now getting cloned into “myco-bacon,” “my bacon” and being sold at Honest Weight Food Co-Op in Albany for six months, and is now getting scaled nationally, in the next year, with a hundred million dollars of new investment. And I’m holding this thing, this strain, … and saying, “Yeah, I knew you had potential!” [laughs] AW: That’s great! SVH: So … so the way I got there is just the best story, and it will be in the book, is in the book, and it’s also in the New Yorker magazine article about Ecovative that came out on March … on May 20th, 2013, called Farm and Function, and there’s a big part of that story. And also, this story is also in Fungi Magazine — I can’t remember what year — it was a couple of years after that. So, I’m a lucid dreamer and I’m studying dream … dreaming techniques with an international dream teacher who’s written all the books, Robert Moss, who happens to live in Albany. And I’m at one of his workshops up at Gore Mountain, and the message I get at one of the exercises that we did, which was creating a synchronicity card deck, was “life is �mushrooming.” And I picked my own card out of the deck, and he said, “If you pick your own card, it’s serious business — you’d better do what the card says!” AW: [laughs] SVH: So I had … my question was — this was November 2005. My question was, “what is the next creative phase of my life?” I was already feeling that Skidmore was dwindling. And, “what is the next creative phase of my life?” Now maybe I’ve got one more shot at one more career. That was my question and I picked my own card, “life is mushrooming,” that I’d written. And, so I’m like, “Okay, what does that mean for me?” So, that Monday I called Paul Stamets in Washington State and I said, “Paul, you don’t remember me from 30 years ago but we were in 4H together” and I said, “I want to take your Mychorestoration and Mycoremediation course on how to heal ecosystems using fungi. That’s what your book is about. That’s what I want to do. I have enough background; I can pull this off. It marries my environmentalism with my mycology.” And he said, “Yeahhh … no, no, you’ve got to come take the beginner seminar first.” I said, “Paul, come on, I have a graduate degree in mycology. I know how to culture fungi.” He goes, “Yeahhh, but there’s some little tidbits you need to know. You need to come do the beginner’s seminar.” So I go out there in March of 2006, borrow my sister-in-law’s car in Portland, Oregon, drive up to the Olympic Peninsula, take the course — I’m practically teaching lab, he says, “Sue, can you help out those people there? Sue, can you help out those people there?” Thirty people! And I come home with 12 fungi that he gave us, in test tubes. And so I went back three months later, in June, to take the other course, and came home with even more. So I thought, “Ok, I’m going to now go out in the woods and build my own strain library.” And David had given me a little cinderblock room in the back of the greenhouse [laughs] that I could call home. We were actually doing our slug experiments in there, too, [laughs] so I’ve had it for a while. And I said, “I just need a refrigerator please,” and so I got permission to be in somebody’s refrigerator and I started collecting fungi and building a strain library. And, low and behold, Karen sticks an article in … a year later, in June of 2007, on my door, at the end of the semester: “RPI Grads Grow Mushroom Insulation Board.” And I walked past it for four days, because I was busy with summer school or whatever, and finally on Friday I sat down and read it and went “Oh my God! I have to meet these people!” [laughs] So I found them through the staff directory, they are faculty members, and got hold of them and, in the meantime — my first email with Eben, one of the two guys, was on Wednesday and we’d arranged for a call on Friday, and on Thursday, in between, I went out to the North Woods with the Thursday Naturalists, who’s a group of octogenarians, average age octogenarians, who I’ve been botanizing with for years — and Skidmore woods is one their favorite places to come — and that particular day was in June, we were going to look for the 33 species of ferns, and we found them all. And, not only did we find them all, but I’m having this conversation with Win Bigelow, he says, “Sue, what do you know about chaga?” and I said, “Well I’ve just learned about chaga because Jackie Donnelly picked me up and took me to this thing growing on a tree and we had, and we…” you know, did that. So, I’m talking to Win about the chaga and we get down to wayyy back in the corner of the woods by the Middle School, and we are going into this one glade to find silver spleenwort. And I’m at the end and the person in front of me is 96-year-old Sally Ingalls, with her walking stick and her hand lens, and I’m looking at her and I’m going, “You’re my idol, you’re my idol! I’m going to be you; I’m going to be you!” [laughs]. So I’m the last person in line and we’d just talked about chaga and here’s this yellow birch and there’s a chaga mushroom right there! And �it’s low on the tree — usually they’re up high, and it’s low! And so I had my little Canon Power shot, and I knelt down and I’m looking at this chaga and it’s like, “Hmm, this looks like a portal, there’s like a chunk of it over here and a chunk of it over on the other side and there’s like a little black frame around in the middle — I’m going to just take a picture of this!” So I knelt down, I looked through my camera, and this face appears! I’m going to show you the picture, I have it upstairs. This face — you can put it in the article — this face appears and it’s this Indigenous elder with big bushy eyebrows and a pointy chin and a beard and it passes through the portal in my viewfinder, it just moves right through there, and I snapped and I got the face. And I’m like, “Whooo, I’m getting chills! The fungi are talking to me! They’re giving me some big information here!” On the heels of my dreaming thing and on the heels of going out to Paul, who’s very dreamy, and has done his share of hallucinogenic tripping [laughs]…most of where his ideas come from. And, I’m like, “Okay, I’m really getting a hit here!” And so I just, I just keep it all to myself and I go up to the other people and they found the silvery spleenwort and we look at it, dah dah dah, and I come home. That night I go for a walk at ten o’clock at night because there’s a full moon and I… you know my husband and I had just had an argument about determinate versus indeterminate tomatoes and which ones we’re going to plant and I said, “This is ridiculous, I’m going for a walk.” And I’m going out to the cemetery, where it’s my favorite place to walk, and there’s this snake on the side of the road doing this “death dance.” It’s a snake I’ve never seen before but I instinctively know it’s a milk snake, it was broad white and brown banded. I said, “I think you’re a milk snake but it doesn’t matter, you’re a snake and you’re doing this thing and … straight up in the air and then falling on your head and straight up in the air and falling on your head," I’m like, “this is kind of like … what is going on?” So then I just, I said, “I’m leaving,” so I go to my tree, I’m hugging my tree and leaning on my tree and I’m watching the moon and then “Okay, time to go back.” And I come back and I’m like a little bit afraid to see where this snake is next. This snake … freaks me out. This snake has made itself into the shape of a heart, which snakes don’t do. And I get down on my hands and knees to see where the head and tail were. It had bit its tail with its head, and the middle of the snake was the groove in the top of the heart. I’m like, “You shouldn’t be bending right there like that.” So this is like a special message to Sue from snake medicine spirit … and I thought it was just, “Go home and be loved, be loving to your husband, forget the stupid argument.” No, it wasn’t that. I mean I did that anyway, but it wasn’t that. [laughs] This, you know, so snake medicine is about shedding your old skin, transformation, new life ahead, all of this messaging coming through. And we had seen a giant water snake on that field trip that day. And it wasn’t in Wilson Marsh, it was way up on a rocky outcrop where it shouldn’t have been so that it caught our attention. Anyway, so two snakes in one day, and then, so I'm like, “This message is, ‘be what you love. Do what you love the most.’ This is what the snake is telling me.” So, that’s Thursday night. So Friday morning I’m driving to Skidmore, I’m going to have this first phone call with Eben, this cool guy, this cool young guy, and I’m like, “Oh, I’ve got to go see the snake.” [laughs] And the snake wasn’t there, it was up this friend’s driveway, in a straight line, it had crawled out from underneath a little juniper bush, and I’m like, I got down on my knees and, “Are you alive or are you dead, snake?” It was dead and little ants were feeding on it. I’m like, “I witnessed your death dance, you gave me a message before you died. [laughs] You’re telling me to do what I love. This is pretty cool.” So my first conversation, right out of the blocks, I just said, “Hi. Why are you using a commodity, a food commodity and not a waste product?” [laughs] That’s the first words out of �my mouth, because they were using … they had taken flour and water and pearlite, you know, the white stuff in potting soil for holding water, and oyster mushroom spores they ordered off the Internet to make this board. I said, “You shouldn’t be using food. This feeds people.” They go, “We already switched. We already switched. We are using agricultural crop waste.” I said, “Oh good.” I said, “So what are you looking for…” And they’re looking for … “in your strains? Like what are you looking for?” And they’re, “We want it to be dense, fast growing and really strong.” I’m like, “Do you know anything about fungi?” “No, we’re engineers.” I’m like, “And you’re starting a company to grow fungi, is that correct?” “Yes, it is!” [laughs]. And so, I said, “So how far are you along are you?” He said, “Well we filed the provisional patents and we have some lawyers and we have business plans,” and I said, “Oh that’s good, because I don’t know any of that stuff and nor do I want to. But I do know the part about the fungi and I’d be happy to work with you.” And so by the end of an hour and a half call, …and I told him the whole story about the snake and the chaga, because if he didn’t … if he balked at that then I didn’t want to work with these guys. But he is a lucid dreamer too, so he was like on the edge of his seat on his end of the phone line and I could tell. And like, “Okay, we can do this. We can marry our interests here.” So I worked for them. I grew … so when I went upstairs to Bill Tomlinson, we arranged a transfer of biological materials agreement between the two colleges, because they were in the incubator at RPI still, and I grew their spawn for the first two years. So I grew all their fungi, and I grew them with my strains, and … in our autoclave. [laughed] I processed them in our autoclave and then I delivered them or they’d come up and pick them up. I taught them all of their sterile technique and I taught them all the names, all the biology of the fungi, and I mentored and mentored and mentored and mentored and mentored. For nothing! [laughs] Because I’m a teacher, right? I kick myself — if I had any business sense whatsoever, I would have charged them for all of this information. [laughs] AW: You would have been a partner. [laughs] SVH: I would have been a full-fledged third partner. How dumb was I? Where are my spirit guides now, like, “You’re supposed to be helping me here!” [laughs] So anyway, I gave it all for free, and … whatever, I’ve never been about money in my life, ever, in anything I’ve done. In fact, every … of the four jobs I’ve had has been the trail-blazing position. I’ve been the trail blazer and I’ve left and the next person makes two or three times what I made. So it’s not, it’s not what I’m here for on the planet. AW: Right. SVH: So anyway, this story got better and better. So, I’m still teaching, so this is 2007 to 2010. I’m still growing their stuff, teaching them, engaging our students, and then … 2008 we applied for our first EPA grant. And they tried once on their own and didn’t get it [laughs] and so they called me up and they said, “Ahh, we need your gray hairs.” [laughs] And, so I was the PI on the first EPA grant, and then we got a Skidmore student, Dawn Harfmann, Tom Harfmann’s daughter, from IT, and she and I worked on it for six months and then she came and worked with us, upon graduating. And now I got Gordon MacPhearson to do the USDA grant the following summer. So I was still using Skidmore facilities, Skidmore students, and it was just a wonderful situation. And then, I … we got the grant, so I had to go do the grant, right? So I had to take a leave of absence, unpaid, because we didn’t get sabbaticals as TAs. And so that was all arranged, �and I went in January of 2009 through the summer and did the grant. I got paid a little more than I would have teaching kids at Skidmore, that was fine, so that’s good. And then I get back on campus and the first faculty meeting in the fall of 2009 and Phil gets up and says, “You know we’re in … we’ve had an economic recession for 2007, 8 and 9 and we just have to lay some people off — we have to get rid of 70 people.” I don’t know if you remember that? AW: I do. SVH: Yeah. And he said, “But, we’re going to be able to do it voluntarily with a little bit of a bonus incentive for getting out the door.” It was a great … it was a big bonus, as it turns out. “And, in order to apply for this voluntarily you have to be at least 55 and you have to have worked here for 15 years. So I was turning 55 the next month and I had 15 years, no I had 17 years in. I had 17 years in then. “Ahhhh, spirit, you told me it’s time to shift. Ahh, this is like a pretty graceful way to do it with a little extra cash on the way out the door. Am I supposed to do this?” “Yeah, you’d better apply.” [laughs] There were six of us in the Bio Department who could have applied. I was the only one who did, and it was competitive — more than 70 people applied. So, I got it, and I still smile at the grace … this graceful transition that was no stress. And so the message for me in my whole healing journey from the breast cancer has been to listen to your heart more. I mean, I get to see my heart beat every day, because I’m missing one, and so it … you know, in academia we are so in our heads all the time, it’s like, balance your head and your heart, people. And when you do, things are easy, they’re not hard and challenging, the spirit is on your side. They want this abundance for you, they want this thing that you’re on the earth to do, for you. Stay out of the way! Stay out of the way! And when you stay out of the way it is fun! It’s like magic! You get snakes doing dances. And you, I mean, you meet chaga men in the woods, and … it’s just beautiful! And so that was my fourth transition to this new thing I’d never done called business! AW: [Laughs] SVH: And it turns out that I was, like, teaching all the science there, mentoring all these people. I mean, we grew slowly at first and then it was like, boom! Up to 60 employees. During the recession, we were up to 60 employees, which was pretty … Paul Tonko came and cut our ribbon. [laughs] And so this company is coming into its own now. We were, 10 years before its time in growing mushroom packaging to replace Styrofoam. Completely compostable, 100 percent plants and fungus, no waste product, throw it in your garden, throw it in your mulch, thing. That’s taken a decade to catch on and now it’s really catching on. And it’s now, all that has been licensed to a company in California. They don’t even do it any more here. So now they’ve moved on to alternative meats, and that is going to be mind blowing and successful too. So. AW: Um, Sue, we have been chatting for quite a while and it’s been wonderful, it’s been fun. I’m just, I just want to ask you if there’s any … we’ve only touched on so many things, but if there’s anything that I didn’t mention that you feel is particularly essential to mention now, this is the moment! [laughs] You’ve had a very colorful, very innovative career, and a big chunk of it spent at Skidmore for the enrichment of the college and the student community. I just want to be sure I haven’t forgotten anything that you’ll think about later and say, “Oh gosh, I wish I’d �mentioned this.” SVH: Well I feel really honored that I’ve gotten to share what’s kept me really excited and engaged in this retirement. And I retired from Skidmore in 2016, so I didn’t really retire until then. And I was a healing touch practitioner at the office of Ecovative. I saw 60 employees on my massage table. They realized the benefits of caring for ourselves. And so a big, one of the big things I did there, and I think I did at Skidmore and I think I did everywhere I’ve been … “Oh hello helicopter!” [laughs] [loud helicopter flying overhead] Um, I’m just going to wait … So one of the biggest things I’ve done all throughout my career is care for people. And, I miss the students tremendously, every one of them. You know, I had a big transition, a BIG transition when I went to teach in Environmental Science. Because I came, …you know, you gravitate to people who are most like you, right? So I was a top A student, I mean I was the top grade in my class all throughout my career. And so I gravitated to those kids, the super performers in our labs, and I took care of the other people, but like I really gave a little extra encouragement, I wanted them to really succeed. There was one other student I want to mention, that was transformative for me. She had cerebral palsy, and she was also the daughter of a staff member. I had her for two semesters and … I was told, “Do what you can to accommodate her.” She could barely walk and I had to have a bed in the lab. And in the fall lab we were doing the bee experiments outside, and I said, “I’m going to find a way to get you into the woods to paint bees.” And at the time I had inherited my mom’s old Dodge K-car station wagon, which was kind of on its last legs, so I put a mattress in the back of the station wagon, and we got her down the elevator and got her into the back of the car and I drove her out into the woods. And it was a time where the roads were in good-enough shape, it was down where the new student dorms are now, it was down in that section of the woods, and the roads had not eroded, where I could drive her right to where we were doing the experiments. And then for the next semester her lab was in the prep room in the Plant Biology class, and I spent hundreds and hundreds of hours … digital photography in the microscope was new, and I put the camera in the microscope and I scanned every single microscope slide that we looked at the whole semester, at low magnification, middle magnification and high magnification so that she could see absolutely everything that the students saw. And I filmed all of this, so that took me hours of my own time, and then I … while she’s lying in bed I’m talking her through it, so I taught another three-hour lab to her every week individually. She invited me to her PhD graduation party … where she walked, was walking beautifully. PhD in neuroscience so that she could understand her illness! And … it was at the Parting Glass down in Saratoga, and I brought my whole family with me. I said, “Kids, you’ve got to meet this woman. You’ve got to meet this woman.” So those are the things that you teach for. And … yeah, I miss the students. AW: That’s an awesome story, and very moving, Sue. I want to thank you for sharing that, I want to thank you for being a good teacher and a great colleague for many years at Skidmore. I’ll sign off now. END � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Andrea Wise Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sue Van Hook Location The location of the interview Cambridge, NY 12816 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:13:01 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit October 25, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sue Van Hook Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 3, 2021 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource A member of the Biology Department faculty from 1992 to 2010, Sue Van Hook was a senior teaching associate specializing in botany and mycology. She was a leader in campus sustainability projects and in the stewardship of Skidmore’s North Woods. In 2007 Sue produced "Treasures in the North Woods: A guide to the natural campus at Skidmore College" in collaboration with students, staff, and faculty spouses. This interview was recorded on the porch of Sue’s home in Cambridge, N.Y., on June 3, 2021. [The interview has been slightly edited for length.] Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Biology Department Campus Culture Campus Environment Committee Collaborative Research Curriculum David Porter Diversity Growth in Science North Woods Opportunity Program Phil Glotzbach Phyllis Roth Student Faculty Relations https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/b4f493d322fb53d53350d115432f846d.jpg 08f645048ac2169b988afeaf90d49038 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Randy Abreu, '11 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 4, 2016 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothea Trufelman, '16 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/0b179e93a2b299b90cba5833d9f05c3b.mp3 1b38b2b7a436a9443d690d394312c6d4 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/9b132b9aca681a587491145bbd0638c1.docx 80a8dcb3e9ead00f78cc4d3d203b1a11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Randy Abreu '11 Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Rebecca Stern, '16 Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 04/06/2016 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Randy Abreu '11 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 4, 2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audio, Photo Language A language of the resource English (eng,) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stern, Rebecca Zosia, '16 alumni Bronx reunion weekend SGA Skidmore College Skidmore Green student government https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/f4fbab6e647d09430ff6d2ebfdea20eb.jpg bd3e791cb07cde14c111602ab788abcd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Javier Calederón, '11 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 4, 2016 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothea Trufelman, '16 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/53d97d704a3b14df629200f391a1a83c.mp3 4c766ede4a3637b06174501debd0d05f https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/a487b0b842c677ccc3acc6393741318d.docx be68962a14445128e3d861ee1ab2b51a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Randy Abreu '11 Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Rebecca Stern, '16 Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 04/06/2016 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Javier Calderon '11 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 4, 2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audio, Photo Language A language of the resource English (eng.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stern, Rebecca Zosia, '16 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/e54f87b9607d255c07bda330b49f9c89.jpg 10132045e7f7dbfd3c55690cbfed818e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Emmily de los Santos Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 4, 2016 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorothea Trufelman, '16 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/f0db8d37fda539bab37eb53f1aeffe7e.mp3 d7e820716d8d74b1cbd182d9c91b7a7f https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/c302153e39d6033635c792dbd86a0f7d.docx 2be272e5dbde72fb38eab824589f24b4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Emmily De los Santos Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Emmily De los Santos, '11 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 4, 2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audio, Photo Language A language of the resource English (eng.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stern, Rebecca Zosia, '16 alumna alumni Cornel West New York City Saratoga Springs Skidmore Skidmore College sociology Washington Heights https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/8f943dc3abc3fc2b13899d761ce66827.jpg 4e09e8950f9b7db28a8c3ef262f9ba65 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/1d4b9f70c8d8a84e034deefa4e02305b.m4a 81f124c905fcaf2bbeff4cc168e0e8ce https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/d75d0a3eea3b78dec510fbf2bd8e14da.pdf c59428a0a63fb3144eac3232ee4b5254 PDF Text Text Ann Schapps Schaffer ‘62 Interview Log 00:00:00 Class of 1962 00:00:10 Majored in Romance Languages: Spanish, French, and Italian 00:00:20 When graduated, worked for United Nations in translation 00:00:30 Tutored in Spanish, Italian, and Latin once starting family 00:00:35 Started taking class, “Collecting Art Successfully” 00:00:45 Only took one art history class at Skidmore 00:01:10 Started teaching class on purchasing contemporaty art 00:01:30 Trustee at Montclair Art Museum and a trustee of ICI, trustee at Museum of Modern Art, Co-Chair Photography Council at Guggenheim, and involvement at Tang, Vice President of the National Advisory Council 00:03:00 Interest in culture started at Skidmore: lectures, such as Robert Frost 00:03:30 Gave interviews to prospective students, and donate financially 00:04:20 When bump into other Skidmore alum, a lot of friends in the art world 00:04:51 Opened home to Art History class to see personal contemporary art collection 00:05:20 Likes art that’s photograph based, where what you see is not what you get 00:06:00 When language major, you read the greatest works 00:07:00 Loved sociology and psychology courses 00:07:50 Since all girls school, encouraged to cement solid friendships 00:08:00 Didn’t worry about boys, so went to more lectures, met with Professors instead 00:09:00 Memories of Happy Pappy Weekend, when fathers would come to visit Skidmore 00:09:30 Daily life in dorms: had strict curfews, and spent time in other’s rooms as an international student helped students settle into Saratoga 00:10:15 No phones, fax machines, or computers 00:10:30 Wrote papers, had to white out letters, and retype letters 00:10:45 Spoke to parents max once a week, and maybe now with technology lack of independence 00:12:25 Creative Though Matters has always been underpinning of school, all girls school made that possible, because some girls may have been shy to express opinion with strong male voices in the room 00:13:00 Geared to think that we could do anything 00:16:45 Donated with what her and Ian Berry thought best to learn with at Tang 00:18:10 Even if you don’t see friends for a while, pick up where you left off 00:19:30 Tried to engage his personal background for other students to understand his background 00:22:00 Tries to use his resources now to help others get similar oppurnities   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ann Schapps Schaffer Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Rebecca Stern Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 26/06/2017 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ann Schapps Schaffer '62 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 6, 2017 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (eng.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rebecca Stern Curating Fraces Young Tang Teaching Museum Romance Languages Skidmore College https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/d5538366f008cb9d9fdfa1ededdc588f.jpg 8e49437b6ca6ff787a014ae8a426141a https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/9af58930ab3022dbd557d461df978ac9.m4a 63ac0c1fbc6d91a1843413eb244b2bd1 https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/ea7ff647cb68fcf5f75bb17c0bed1d50.pdf 56f5fc0a0395a5589a3da22d1db56e7d PDF Text Text Melvis Langyintuo ‘12 Interview Log 00:00:00 From Tamale, Ghana 00:00:10 Double Major in Business & Management and Economics 00:00:20 Lives in Downtown Manhattan and is a trader at Goldman Sachs 00:00:40 At Skidmore involved in International Student body and Student Government 00:01:00 Class President 00:01:20 Currently involved in local Skidmore Happy Hours and an Alum Finance Group 00:01:50 Sister recently graduated from Skidmore 00:02:00 Feels like hasn’t left when comes back to campus 00:02:40 Well aware of things going on at Skidmore 00:03:30 Notices student diversity population has grown 00:04:00 Growing investments in infrastructure 00:04:40 Midnight Dodgeball event freshman year 00:05:55 Took Education Department class, School and Society 00:08:00 Winning first Liberty League Basketball Tournament for Skidmore and repeat senior year 00:09:30 Success of Dodgeball Event spurred interest in SGA 00:11:00 Helped bind community, biggest group of students back for alumni reunion weekend 00:12:30 Academics helped work as a trader and interest in philanthropy 00:13:15 Works for Pencils for Promise, an organization that builds schools in Guatemala Ghana, and Laos. Raised over $120,000 00:15:30 Experience as an international student helped students settle into Saratoga 00:19:30 Tried to engage his personal background for other students to understand his background 00:22:00 Tries to use his resources now to help others get similar oppurnities   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kira Hastings '17 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Melvis Langyintuo Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 06/06/2017 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Melvis Langyintuo '12 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 6, 2017 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audio, Photo Language A language of the resource English, (eng.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 Description An account of the resource Langyintuo '12 from Tamale, Ghana, graduated with a double major in business and economics and served as class president for four years. He remains connected to Skidmore through local happy hours and an Alum finance group. After his graduation, he started working in Manhattan in finance. He credits his education with preparing him for his current career as a trader at Goldman Sachs. alumni ghana kickball management & business SGA Skidmore College student government https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/01eb5493f7d09d7d701b966635e8d16f.png ce71cd240b0e97cdb1e1b6b44a4937f1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data b/w photos and etching Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Miles Herman Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 5/7/2021 Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. Late 1800s and early 1900s Abstract (& Historical Note) Natural language description of the map itself, providing a general summary of the map and noting significant features. This is the place to introduce keywords and proper names that might be of interest to researchers, but do not warrant a separate subject heading of their own. Inset maps should also be described here, with their full titles given. Whenever historical or explanatory information is available, it should be included here as well. This includes information about items or events that are larger than just the map itself; for example, information about cartographers, a description of the map's historical significance (for example, "This is the first printed map of Saratoga Springs"), notes on the laws leading to a map's creation, descriptions of changes in state or county lines, information about the organization that created the map, how often maps were updated, and information about the map's creation and publication. Many State Archives maps have historical information in the catalog record -- that should be captured in this field. Saratoga Lake - Waterfront - rowing regattas - swimming - boating - fishing - Ryall's Bathing Beach - ice fishing URL https://www.thelagroup.com/2015/10/16/saratoga-waterfront-park/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Early Saratoga Lake Activities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Late 1800s to early 1900s Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Lista Tonneston-McCorkell, "The Story and Strategy Behind the Saratoga Waterfront Park," The LA Group, 16 Oct 2015. Description An account of the resource This is a collection of images of activities on Saratoga Lake that took place during the late 1800s and early 1900s. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The LA Group Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lisa Tonneson-McCorkell https://ssmp.skidmore.edu/files/original/a9d605ebb4c2f7a680fdfe446e389e30.png e2a9822edbd4339932bbf13e0b9fecb7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data photograph Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 5/6/2021 Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. Late 1930s Abstract (& Historical Note) Natural language description of the map itself, providing a general summary of the map and noting significant features. This is the place to introduce keywords and proper names that might be of interest to researchers, but do not warrant a separate subject heading of their own. Inset maps should also be described here, with their full titles given. Whenever historical or explanatory information is available, it should be included here as well. This includes information about items or events that are larger than just the map itself; for example, information about cartographers, a description of the map's historical significance (for example, "This is the first printed map of Saratoga Springs"), notes on the laws leading to a map's creation, descriptions of changes in state or county lines, information about the organization that created the map, how often maps were updated, and information about the map's creation and publication. Many State Archives maps have historical information in the catalog record -- that should be captured in this field. Roosevelt Baths - Gideon Putnam Resort & Spa - President Franklin Roosevelt - public bathhouse - hydrotherapy - balneology - physical rehabilitation - Saratoga Spa State Park - mineral waters URL https://www.timesunion.com/saratoga/article/Roosevelt-Baths-Spa-in-Saratoga-Springs-marks-6390446.php Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Miles Herman Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hydrotherapy at the Roosevelt Baths, Saratoga Springs, NY Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Late 1930s Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Image 2 of 57 from Tyler McNeil, "Roosevelt Bath & Spa in Saratoga Springs marks 80th Year," The Ties Union, July 17, 2015. URL: https://www.timesunion.com/saratoga/article/Roosevelt-Baths-Spa-in-Saratoga-Springs-marks-6390446.php#photo-6482579 Description An account of the resource Hydrotherapy and spa services offered at Roosevelt Baths and Spa in the 1930s thanks to the popularity of Dr. Simon Baruch's research and promotion of hydrotherapy by President Franklin Roosevelt.