Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project

Interview with Dave Paterson

Dublin Core


Interview with Dave Paterson


February 11th, 2018

Is Part Of

Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project


An oral history interview with Dave Paterson, formerly a History Teacher at Saratoga High School and president of the Saratoga Springs History Meusuem, currently a tour guide at Saratoga Tours. In this interview, he discusses his journey to Saratoga Springs, his views on how things have changed, his history of working for the High School and the Museum, as well as what he is still learning today.




Cocchi, Christopher, 2019

Oral History Item Type Metadata


Cocchi, Christopher, 2019


Paterson, Dave


Skidmore College, Lucy Scribner Library


Christopher Cocchi: Ok, testing 1,2,3. I think its working. Ok! So uh, first thing is that, uh do you, just to go over uh, verbal consent, uh do you agree to what you signed before about, you know, hav- lending your voice to the uh, Saratoga or Skidmore Memory Project [Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project (SSMP)] and uh, you know, letting it be used online and whatnot?

Dave Paterson: I do.

CC: Cool, thank you. Anyway, first things first I just have to record just the empty the noise here so that they can edit it out so I'm just gonna be silent for about a few seconds here


CC: Ok, so for the record, my name is Christopher Cocchi, I'm here with Dave Paterson, in the Skidmore Library in the Media Viewing room, and I'm interviewing him for the Public History in Skidmore with Professor [Jordana] Dym. So uh, I guess, to begin, uh, what's uh, just tell me about yourself, like uh, when were you born or like where did you live growing up?

DP: Ok, I was born in south Boston-
CC: Um hm.
DP:-in 1954.
CC: Um hm.
DP : And, uh, I've been in Saratoga [Springs] for the last 47 years. I've taught for over 30 years at the [Saratoga Springs] high school here, [as the] Social Studies department head, and overlapping 15 years at The University at Albany. Uh, in the midst of all that teaching of I was also President of the Saratoga Springs History Museum, and for 19 years a friend of mine and I have run a company called Saratoga Tours, where we give historic tours of Saratoga Springs.

CC: Ok cool. So uh, what got you interested in history in the first place?

DP: Probably my 8th grade history teacher, uh, Mr.Curren [SP?], and uh, he's the first one who made who made it more about how and why instead of, memorizing who, what, when, and where and dates and all those, and uh, I always liked to read. And once I started reading history, then I wanted to read more, it's like, now I'm writing for Saratoga Living Magazine, I think the new, the new relaunch of the magazine just came out a couple days ago, and I have an article in there that I wrote for them about the blizzard of 1888 when we got 57 inches of snow. But while I was researching that, and reading up on that, then I found a bunch more questions I wanted answers to so then I go off on- and that's the great thing about history, you're never done.

CC: Um hm. That's very cool. Now uh, where did you go after your, uh, experience in public school, like which university did you [DP starts speaking] go to from there?

DP: Oh, uh college-wise I was at the, first was at the University of Miami.
CC: Um hm.
DP: Uh, I was playing Baseball also at the time so I left Miami, um I ended up getting degrees from Boston College, uh, University at Albany, and [ The College of] Saint Rose.

CC: Ok cool. And what was your first experience out of college?

DP: [Deep breath] [You] mean work wise?
CC: Yeah.
DP: I taught for half a year in Rutland, Vermont. I was the fourth teacher they had hired, because the 7th and 8th graders were driving all the substitute people crazy, and I remember I started in February, oh I think 1980, and I get through the rest of the school year with them, and a matter of fact, on like the second the second to last week of school, the assistant superintendent asked me if I was available to come back an- oh- then next year and I said I was. And he said they were going to give me like a "The 8th grade teacher of the year award" and I said oh this is great, and then the next week I got laid off!
CC: Oh!
DP: [Laughs] So I was going to go back to Boston and open up a sporting goods store, and uh, on my way down through, I had interviewed at Saratoga High School before, but they already had a position filled, on my way down- I was packing up my car literally, on the day I was going to go to Boston, when Saratoga called and said "we have an opening, do you want to come up and interview?" [Unsure mumble] I said ok, I will. So I went up, they hired me, and I've been there for the last 40 years.

CC: Uh, so, what was your- what was- wh- what was your teaching at Saratoga High [School]?

DP: Uh, really good. Uh, Saratoga [Springs]'s a really good school district. Uh, I taught everything you can teach in the Social Studies from grades 7 to 12. Every level of student, from the weakest kids we had, a lot of kids with special needs, up to the Advanced Placement courses, uh I think I was only the 2nd Advance Placement U.S. History teacher in the county when we started that program. Um, I also taught in summer school I taught phys. ed. [Physical Education], I taught English, Social Studies, so, but, you know, all in all a terrific experience. Great kids.

CC: So, how- did anything change over the years that you were teaching History at Saratoga High School?

DP: [Deep breath] Well, [pause] that's one of the great things about history, things do change as time goes on, um the first kids I taught in the 1980's, I don't know if you'll remember Chris but there used to be a show on TV, a TV show in the 80's called "Family Ties".
CC: Um hmm.
DP: And most of the kids in the 80's were a lot like that Alex P. Keaton character. You know, they were the Michael Fox character, um, very preppy kind of thing, and we went through ph-phase for a while, but then we get into a phase where uh, everybody was getting piercings everywhere, and then we got into a phase where the clothes got kinda wild, and then it went back to more conservative dress. So it's kinda been all over the place, and uh, its interesting because towards the end of my career I noticed I was teaching a lot of the sons and daughters of kids I taught 30 years before.

CC: Did uh the material you taught change at all or was it pretty consistent?

DP: Well the tough thing with History is- and Math teachers don't understand this- um, there's a finite amount of information to teach in the AP [Advanced Placement] or Regents [Examinations] Math or Science courses, so they can usually schedule their courses to end, let's say, mid-May, or early May, which will give them to review for either the AP exam or the Regents. Well, History just gets added onto every year. So, for example when we get to 2001, you can't leave out 9/11, that's too important [of] a piece of history. So as you add things in, you have to edit other things that you've been teaching over time. So, you figure, when I started, was the first year Reagan, Ro-Ro Ronald Reagan was president, um when I ended [Barack] Obama was president. Well, a lot changed, and then you gotta teach all that. So, the amount I had to teach changed, and I think my methods of teaching changed.

CC: Could you go into that, like wh-wh- how did your methods change?

DP: Well, [Cough] education isn't a once size fit all, I don't think, although I-it does make me laugh because [the] New York Department of Education continually talks about differentiated instruction, which is the idea that every student should be treated differently and taught according to, you know, what they can do. And I agree with that philosophically, [Cough] yet they want every kid to sit down for same Regents exam, whether you live in Long Island, or Brooklyn, or Saratoga Springs. And to me that is a little ridiculous. I never had a student fail a state test, but I think the reason for that is, because even with lowest level kids I taught, I always treated Social Studies, and I think it's true of any subject [test], as a vocabulary test. As long the kids understand what the questions are at the end of the year, they can answer them. What happens is a lot of teachers think they're being a good teacher, what they'll do something like this, they'll say, I'll be teaching a class and I'll say "Ok, so were when the immigrants were coming into New York City, and they were being processed, and they were slowly getting accepted and they got jobs in factories, and they started to learn the English language, and customs in America, that's called Assimilation." Well some teachers, thinking they're just trying to help the kids, will just refer to it as "fitting in", 'cus the kids will understand it better. The problem is when they get to the Regents exam, the Regents uses the word "assimilation", and if a student doesn't associate the word assimilation with the immigrant experience, they're not going to get the question right. So I learned early on that vocabulary was an important part. Also early on when I was teaching it was a lot more chalk talk lecturing, as then as time when the technology get so good with the Smartboards and things, I could work in, instead of telling kids about Martin Luther Kings' [Jr.] "I Have a Dream" speech, I can play them a quick 5 minute excerpt, I can show them an inauguration, um, so that was good.

CC: Ok, uh do you have any like, uh stories from any particular incidences [incidents] from your time in the [Saratoga] high school?

DP: [Laughs] Stories relative to what?

CC: I guess like for instance like, did you ever have like a student that like, made you think "Hey, you know, this might be an interesting way to teach it next time." Or did a teacher come up to you and say something that like, made think of, like...

DP: Oh several times, I think most of the times the changes I've made in my teaching methods over the years came from a feedback I got from students. Um, because you a different group of students every year, and they come at things from a different perspective. Uh, one of my favorite students ever was a young man who came up to me and said, he was very nice, he was thanking me for the course, for teaching the course, for teaching the course and everything, and then he said "You know what I really liked a lot was when we worked in groups." And I hadn't really been too big on group projects, but for the next years I took a couple of the units and I made them group projects things, and all of them- well not all of them- most of the kids really seem to like it. So then the next year I did a little more of that, and-and that happened a few times in my career, he's now a very successful doctor at a Mass. General Boston [Massachusetts General Hospital at Boston].

CC: Cool. Uh, so what was like- wh-what was life like living in Saratoga [Springs] at the time, 'cus you were new to the area, correct?

DP: Yeah Saratoga [Springs] is uh [small pause] it's an interesting city. Uh when I first moved up here, there seemed to me there was a strong feeling like Broadway was the dividing line in the city. And, briefly when I first moved here I lived in an apartment on the east side of Broadway. And, but for most of the time I've been here I lived in a house on the west side. And it seemed to me in maybe the first 10 years I lived here, there was a dividing line between the people of west Saratoga [Springs], west of Broadway and east of Broadway, and so, of course I got curious and I started doing research and talking to people, and uh the [Saratoga] High School used to be, way back when, over where uh, uh Lake Ave. [Avenue] Elementary School is. So the kids from [the] West side of Saratoga [Springs] had a longer walk than the kids from the east side of Saratoga [Springs], and there was a train that cut the path, they went by where the Price Chopper is, Railroad Place [Aparements]. So, the kids from the West side had to time- since they used to let them home for lunch- but you had to time it right so the train wasn't holding you up. Um, and o- and then the trains disappeared and all that, but that "feeling" seemed to stay with a lot of old-timers. So that was interesting to me. That's now changed, I don't feel that now. Saratoga [Springs] is uh, I think- I think I read that as of two years ago, for the first time, there are now more people living in Saratoga [Springs] who weren't born here than were born here, so that's a big change in that. Um, but Saratoga [Springs] you know, you look at its over the years, it reinvents itself all the time. And I think it's done that when the [Saratoga] City Center came about in 1984, Saratoga [Springs] got revitalized, and boy, where else would you want to be now?

CC: Um hm, so, how do you think the people of Saratoga [Springs] changed during your time uh-
DP: The time I've been here?
CC: Um hm.
DP: [Deep breath, pause] Well, I-I thought it was noteworthy that a couple years ago Saratoga [Springs] get [got] named the "Friendliest city in New York", 'cus I think the people are very friendly. Um, we're also very also very much Wonderbread, in the sense that we're- like, I don't know what we are, 90% Caucasian or something, so its been nice to see an influx of minorities into the city of Saratoga Springs, and uh- and its been to see the city of Saratoga Springs kind of incorporating the kids or the students from Skidmore more. Uh, there was a time there were the community town and gown relationships weren't that great. But I think the college has made an effort and I think the community has made an effort to try and get closer, and I think that helps both sides.

CC: I guess, is it ok if you give an example of when times weren't good between the community and the college and maybe a more recent example how [DP starts speaking] that kinda works for the better?

DP: Ok, I have to go into my little history thing here for you to do that Chris, but I would say this, there was a time not too long ago, I'm going to say the 1960s, and maybe the 50s and maybe even the 70s- but I wasn't here so I'm not sure, when every year- 'cus in those days Skidmore was uh- until the late 60s-early 70s Skidmore was downtown, the campus. But whenever the Skidmore kids came to start a new school year, li- businesses would have signs like "Welcome Skidmore Students" and badubub, you know, and the whole community was like "Oh, we're happy to have the Skidmore kids back." Well when I came here in 1981 there was none of that. As a matter of fact there was even some "We don't want those Skidmore kids down here, where you got to keep an eye on them," and blahblahblah. But now I've noticed in the last few years they're back to the Chamber of Commerce is talking again "Why don't we put those signs up again?" Uh, so that's a good thing.

CC: Ok cool. So, I know you mentioned that during this time you became involved with the [Saratoga Springs] History Museum.
DP: Yup.
CC: How did that happen?

DP: I think I got involved with like six or eight groups in Saratoga Springs, but I became president of the [Saratoga Springs] History Museum. The reason was I was down there alot, researching things- as I said when we started, as I get questions on things I have to delve more into them. So a lot of questions I had, I always think the best way to teach history is-if I can get the kids to relate to it from things that happened in their community, then they can kinda see it with the United States and maybe globally. So I was in the [Saratoga Springs] History Museum alot doing research, and at one point, um, the director at the time, asked me if I would be willing to join the board. So, I did, I joined the board at the [Saratoga Springs] History Museum, and I learned alot from those people. Many of them were old-timers, uh, who had been here forever. And I just listened to them tell their stories. Fascinating. So, then that director left, and I was one of the people in charge of finding the new director. So the person we ended up hiring was Jamie Parillo [James D. Parillo], he's still the director there now, young guy, he had worked at Saratoga National Battlefield [Saratoga Battlefield, part of the Saratoga National Historical Park]. Um, once Jamie came on board he brought kind of a youthful exuberance to it. As a matter of fact we started a program where- 'cus I said, "We gotta reach out kids more." So we started something that hadn't been done before, it was a Junior Membership, so that any kid who wanted to be a member of the [Saratoga Springs] History Museum, basically got a free membership. So they got a membership card, and any time they wanted to go to the museum to check things out or research, they could go down there. So I thought that was good. Uh, when I first became president of the museum, we were suffering a little bit because uh, financially, cus' we're dependent, the museum is dependent of grants and donations, uh and, uh an antiques show they had once a year. And they were struggling, and we were in the red, we were in debt. And I'm happy to say that by the time I left as president we were in the black, we were showing a profit. And I think they are doing fine now. Um, so all-all of that was a good experience.

CC: So what did you do at the [Saratoga Springs] History museum? You were on the board-
DP: Yup.
CC: You helped with the director [search], so what else did you do there?

DP: Well when- it's easier to say when I was president of the board, because when I was on the board I was doing whatever the president at the time wanted to do or the director, and it wasn't that much. When I became president, I thought to myself, "Saratoga [Springs] history is so great, there's so much here." Um, "And this museum is so great, it's the oldest museum in the city." So I had every member of the board pick a month of the year, and whatever month they picked they put on a program for the public on some aspect of Saratoga [Springs] history. And we had everything from board members reenacting plays, to doing readings, to just telling the history of the potato chip, uh all- but all of them learned more about the museum and about Saratoga's [Springs'] history by doing that. So when their time came up to leave the board, a lot of them wanted to stay on because now they felt more invested in it. So I was very proud of that.

CC: Ok, so who do you think the community interacts with the museum, maybe first, when you first came on, and maybe today, too as well?

DP: When I first came on I had the feeling that the- and at the time the proper name of it was the "Saratoga Springs Historical Society", and that sounds a little puffy, a little high-brow, and that's kinda how I though the museum was. Um, like appealing only to old money, and not a place that would be welcoming to like a young family in Geyser Crest [a neighborhood in Saratoga Springs], or any student anywhere in the city, even at Skidmore. Uh, the other good thing we did, by the way, over time was that we started bringing in Skidmore interns, which were great, because they were learning history but they also gave us good, young ideas and they're good with the technology. But I think when I first came here, all the museums in the city were c -were like uh, only for you know that little percent at the top, at least that was the perception. And I think now, I think we have 11 museums in the city, I think now they're a little more... they're perceived to be more accessible by more people.

CC: Ok. I guess if there was one thing that you really liked about both the High School in Saratoga [Springs] and the museums, what would that be?

DP: The people. Um, the museum and the community has wonderful volunteers, uh anytime something comes up or somebody needs something or group needs something, I've seen the people of Saratoga Springs step right up and get into it. Um, I know on the Skidmore Campus you guys have a program called "Skidmore Cares" where I've seen you out raking leaves for senior citizens, that's great! At Saratoga High School we had a program in participation in government, and one of the sections of it that I taught, that class, that whole class for [high school] seniors was to go out and to contribute to the community somehow. And they came up with this great project, and a matter of fact we planted a vegetable garden over on the east side of town, oh God that was in 1997, it's still there, and they're still using it for the soup kitchen, the vegetables. [Coughs] So I think the people have been really rere- same at SUNY Albany [Sate University of New York at Albany] when I was down there, I think the uh... and whenever people go all pessimistic about the future or current times and things, I don't, because uh, first of all I have historic perspective so I know how history has ups and downs, but I also have great faith in people, and I think uh, I think people will pull us through.

CC: Ok, I guess if there's one thing you would like to change in some form in the high school or the museum system, what would- what would you like to do?

DP: Change? Hmm...
DP: Umm....
[long pause]
DP: I have to think about that for a second.
CC: Take your time, no big deal.
[long pause]
DP: Well there is a lot of changes I would like to see made in public education. I'll just give you a couple of ideas. I would like to see every student, no matter what their academic level is, take a semester of BOCES [Boards of Cooperative Educational Services of New York state], of vocational training, and learn how to change oil in a car, or change a tire, you know there's a lot of options at the vocational training school- or basic plumbing or carpentry or something. Uh, I-I think we went for a long time in this country, where we were kinda elitist, and we just said, "the only people really who are successful are the people who go to college," and I don't think that's true. We will always needs craftsmen, plumbers, electricians, and actually in this country right now we have shortage of those. We have a storage of people who can do this- I mean everyone wants to be the next great Einstein, well, Einstein still needs a place to work and someone's gotta build that. And um, so I would like to see more, a little more emphasis, an-an-and not so much snobbery looking down the nose at vocational training. So I guess that's one thing. The second thing would be ... [clears throat] I'm not sure how you do this so Chris I'll leave this up to you, I hate cliques, it's the one thing I hated the most teaching in the [Saratoga] High School all those years. So, I would almost like to see, I don't know you would do it, but some school come up with some system where anyone sits anywhere, at the cafeteria table. It's not cliques all sitting together or ganging up on somebody. Because the bullying that goes on now that's made headlines? That's gone on forever! And I think it comes from cliques. And bullies, basically, are insecure, and I think, in a way, cliques- they're kinda tribal in nature, they make insecure people feel better if they're with a bunch of other insecure people. So, I've always hated that. Now, we've had a couple of classes there, class of '84, the class of '90, the class of '94, uh those three in particular stick out to me because they weren't cliquey. Everybody in that class seemed to get along with everybody else! And that was great.

CC: Ok. Anything about the museums you would like to change?

DP: Uh, not I just wish they would find a way, or somebody would come up with a way, that more people in town didn't feel intimidated by them, and would ch-and would... maybe what you do, I don't know how you would do this, if they could get, uh an endowment of some kind, um, and everybody in the city, for like, one year, could just go to any museum they wanted whenever they wanted for free, just so people would go and see what we have here. We have this treasury here, but A. People don't wanna- or can't perhaps, pay the money to join the museum, or B. they feel intimidated because they don't feel like they're welcome in the museum, and I- if we can get a more welcoming feeling somehow, um, after we started the program were we get the- let the kids be free members, I-I let the kids put on a program one night, I think it was in May one year, on the history of immigration into Saratoga [Springs], and they did like five different groups of immigrants, and they put up an actual display. And we left it up in the museum for the whole summer. People loved it! Uh but they- all the words were from the kids, the pictures were all chosen by the kids, they put it up- well we had an opening night, and I was hoping we might fifteen to twenty of the parents to show up, this was a class of uh, trying to think, maybe 35 kids I had in it. We had three hundred people show up! Uh they were streaming out the door and the parents and the grandparents were so proud of their kids, but the other thing I noticed was so many of them were said [saying] to me, "Hi, I've never been in here before." And it was great to at least get them in the museum.

CC: Hmm. So what was it like starting the tour uh company?

DP: Oh the tour company? Well, unbeknownst to the two of us, this is with my buddy Charlie Kuenzel, Charlie was a science teacher, I had taught two of three kids, and Charlie was doing tours... they weren't tours, Charlie would take his science classes around to the springs to test the mineral waters, went to rock formations in the city like down in- have you been, I know you've been Chris, you know, High Rock Spring? Where you can see where the earthquake caused the springs to start. So he would take his kids around town to that. Well I was trying to start, and I eventually did start, a Saratoga [Springs] history class for [high school] seniors. So I was taking of groups of kids mostly down to the casino, to the museum [the History Museum is in the old building of the Canfield Casino], into Congress park and tell them the story of that. So one day and I thi- I wa- oh, what we did was we each started, for professional development for teachers, offering a two hour course for teachers on the history of Saratoga Springs. He was doing it from the science point of view I was doing it from history. And somebody said, "I took Charlie's course," he took my course, and somebody said, "Why don't you guys just do this together?" And uh, so we said "Alright, we'll try it." So we started teaching that to teachers a couple times together. We became great friends, we hit it off great. The science and social studies and the history meshed, and uh, that's how the tour business started.

CC: Cool, so when did you start that independent of the school?

DP: 1999, I-I think it's been almost twenty years. And over that time we've tours to uh, two hundred FBI agents, the Second Circuit of Appeals [United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit] including jus- including Justice [Ruth Bader] Ginsburg, Demi Lovato and her band, umm [pause] oh I mean any kind of group you can imagine uh we've given tours too.

CC: And have you changed that [DP starts speaking] since you started?

DP: Oh of course! We've worked with uh, Professor Dym's classes here at Skidmore, and at Skidmore orientation.

CC: Anyway, have you changed the tour over the years as well? Or has it [DP starts speaking] remained pretty consistent?

DP: Well the nice thing is with history, it really doesn't change...
CC: Um hm.
DP: ...and if it does if there's something wrong. [laughs] Um, but what has happened over time is, every year I've learned more of the history of Saratoga [Springs]. Like I don't you're learning of it ever stops. And so that's changed, a lot of things have been added to it, but like I said before with teaching a history course, if you're adding more things to it you gotta look for things to take out.
CC: Mm hm.
DP: Um, so that's happened. But mostly it's the same as what we did twenty years ago.

CC: I guess has- have you learned anything that surprised you recently?

DP: Oh all lot, um [pause] Gideon Putnam, came to Saratoga Springs when he was twenty five years old, and his wife was uh Doanda, I think was twenty two or twenty three. He is considered the founder of Saratoga Springs, now there were people here before him, but he was a lumberman, and he laid out the village of Saratoga, down- what is now downtown Saratoga. His wife, Doanda, would whitewash trees, put whitewash on trees, and then he, the lumberman, would cut the trees down, and that's how they made the roads. So, two things having to do him I learned that I thought were interesting. One was, we always thought, "This guy is a genius for making a road one hundred and forty seven feet wide in the middle of the woods," because today, I mean, it's great width, you know, 'cus most streets aren't like that, especially not in 1789. Well it turns out we found writings of Gideon Putnam and the reason the street was that wide was because he was a lumberman, and he pulled a cart behind his horses, he would let them back the cart up without having to make all these fancy maneuvers, so he could turn the cart around, at one hundred and forty seven feet, and that's why the road is that wide. So it was very practical but that was interesting. The other thing about him I thought was interesting, well two things, two more things. One was, he set up the first school in Saratoga, first public school, he set up the first church in Saratoga, both over on Washington street, and he also set up the first burial ground, and unfortunately he was the first one buried in the burial ground. And the last thing about him that I think is interesting is that I never knew, uh was that his uncle was the founder of Marietta, Ohio, so it must have been in their blood.

CC: Anyway, I guess, since we're starting to approach thirty minutes here, I guess I'll leave off with one question that, in class we discussed, and then I think as a historian you might find interesting, we noticed that in the town of Saratoga [Springs] there's a lot of statues of horses, and uh they have jockeys and there is a Civil War solider, but there isn't really as many statues as individuals. Who do you think you would like to see a statue of in town?

DP: Oh! What a good question. Professor Dym. Uh, how about uh, let's see, "Who would I like to see a statue of," - well interestingly, of all the people in Saratoga history, the one we have no idea what he looks like is Gideon Putnam. Everyone else we at least have a sketch or a photograph or something, we have no idea what he looks like. His wife we have, his kids, but not him, so I don't you could do that statue. Uh, who would you do a sat- want to hear an interesting fun fact about Saratoga Springs?
CC: Sure!
DP: Almost all of the great things that happened in the city since 1789, since Gideon Putnam, were done by people who moved here, not by people who were born here. That's fascinating. Um alright so who do we want statue to?
[Long pause]
Mine would be a little bit controversial, but my statute would be to John Morrissey, John Morrissey not only built the Canfield Casino, but he founded the racetrack [Saratoga Race Course], and I think most peop- and you can make a pretty good argument, that over the years, those two things were the two biggest attractions in Saratoga Springs.

CC: Ok cool, anyway, thank you for your time today!

DP: Oh, thank you!

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33 Minutes

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Cocchi, Christopher, 2019, “Interview with Dave Paterson,” Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project, accessed May 22, 2018,

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